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Holding back women is unislamic (imgur.com)

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[–]Middlepathmuslim 37ポイント38ポイント  (33子コメント)

Wow some of you guys here are absolutely ridiculous in your replies. You people are the reason so many think Islam is sexist/ patriarchal/ misogynistic etc.

Are you so insecure in your selves, in Islam and in your manhood that you have to protest anything women positive.

Meredith, ignore the silly people. Ramadan Mubarak :)

[–]MeredithofArabia[S] 15ポイント16ポイント  (4子コメント)

Thanks :) Ramadan Mubarak to you, too.

[–]Spot_the_Ball 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I keep seeing people add names to the end of Ramadan, what does it mean?

[–]Radicool21 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Are you referring to 'mubarak'? It's kind of a standard greeting (it means "Blessed"), like "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays", we use Ramadan Mubarak and Eid Mubarak. Basically, "Have a blessed Ramadan."

[–]Spot_the_Ball 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Mubarak and occasionally Kareem

[–]Radicool21 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yup! Kareem means "generous" or "fruitful" iirc; basically may the month of Ramadan be generous to you (in terms of blessings, good fortune, etc).

[–]OXOXOOXOOOXOOOOO 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

yes, please keep calling those extremist muslims off!

I wonder, this sub was really full of people of nice moderate muslims. Why all the sudden there suddenly appears wahhabists and salafists trying to dictate other muslims how to interpret islam.

this worries me.

[–]grimreaperx2 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (7子コメント)

The issue I have is some people want to shove women into leadership roles because that's what the hype is these days. I don't care if a women is in a leadership role, however I do care if that women is in a leadership role just because she is a women. We need to put qualified people in the positions they are qualified for.

[–]Middlepathmuslim 9ポイント10ポイント  (6子コメント)

That's got nothing to do with the initial post. The post says we shouldn't hold women back. It doesn't say we should shove them into positions they're not qualified for.

I also think that giving people certain positions due to gender, race or religion just for the sake of diversity is ridiculous. Jobs and positions should be given to those qualified, however that is an entirely different topic which has nothing to do with the picture.

[–]grimreaperx2 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No not the picture, but your comment.

Are you so insecure in your selves, in Islam and in your manhood that you have to protest anything women positive.

Thing is sometimes people shame others people for making an argument. I am not opposed to women doing what makes them happy, however, when I have questions or concerns that does not make me a bad person. If people are so sensitive to being questioned or having to opposition then the problem is them. Unfortunately women's issue/rights is a very sensitive topic and people get very angry very quickly in these discussions.

[–]Middlepathmuslim 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not shaming people for making an argument, I'm calling them out for saying that women shouldn't strive to achieve whatever it is that they want or essentially thinking that any woman who is not a home bound housewife is going against Islam.

[–]Zeno90 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Can there be a female leader in an Islamic community? Are women in Islam allowed to lead both men & women?

[–]Alienm00se 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, Muhammad's wife was his boss and an entrepreneur who owned her own business.

[–]Zeno90 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I guess there can be a female caliph/president then. So Islam allows a Muslim woman to lead the Ummah. Nice, Islam is very progressive compared to other religions.

[–]derintellectual 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess there can be a female caliph/president then.

Scholars have said no.

[–]TheRedThrowAwayPill -3ポイント-2ポイント  (10子コメント)

Well I for one don't think I'll be "holding back" my daughters.

But I sure as heck will address all kinds of gender issues we face in America that I sure as heck do NOT want my children to walk into.

edit: again down voting obviously Islamic stance on this dual issue.

[–]Middlepathmuslim 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

Of course, did I say otherwise?

[–]TheRedThrowAwayPill -2ポイント-1ポイント  (8子コメント)

Well you did say "insecure".

That's a modern Internet codespeak for "can't handle stronk wymyn". Perhaps in the r/Islam context it means fear of "allowing" our daughters to achieve things?

That's not the problem we're facing in America. Our daughters can work or not; they more and more have these options.

Sex is the problem we're facing in America.

To wit, our non Muslim counterparts DO use "insecurity" to also refer to the sexual kind. (Ie; no shaming of a women's sexual escapades. Nor a man's. Both aren't what we're looking for).

Ergo my comment (which is also downvoted). As well as my post presenting this topic to OP.

[–]Middlepathmuslim 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

To be fair though this post has nothing to do with sex and has everything to do with strong, powerful female role models. The opposition to that stems from insecurity not from any issues of sexual activities.

As for the actual sex issue. What is haraam is haraam. What others say about that does not matter. But people making the religion intolerant and difficult here is the issue I am trying to bring to light. The suppression of women by some members of the community is unacceptable and as the post says, un-Islamic.

[–]TheRedThrowAwayPill 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

right and I agree with all that.

But in all honesty, sex is an issue. We don't want it to be but it is a significant driving force in the modern feminist sjw ethos. That influence will be felt.

As for the main topic of super woman as role models; that's fine. Obviously we should learn from the mistakes of our counterparts and take the best of both worlds.

I just hate to see the modern Islamic stance co-opted by, well frankly unislamic stances on many things in gender relations that feeds into education, economy, family planning, selfishness and the breakdown of trust between the genders.

Edit : in other words, we have to be cognizant of not jumping feet first into our current atmosphere's culture-as-religion.

[–]Middlepathmuslim 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm completely with you. I just thought that the sex thing isn't a part of this particular conversation. I'm not saying that it isn't a conversation that's needed.

[–]TheRedThrowAwayPill 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Time for a new thread?

[–]Middlepathmuslim 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sure, go for it. We should be trying to have a good conversation in this sub

[–]TheRedThrowAwayPill 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

aww I was hoping you would! Lol

This thread has too much division in it. I personally believe that is bc the topic was brought forward (with modern western sentiment in mind) but without first allaying sexual fears of the male commenters.

Had OP cooled their hearts first then this topic would have been much more endearing to them.

I think I'll ask op to start a thread.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]TheRedThrowAwayPill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I didn't make ANY such connection.

    I was trying to steer the entire convo away from OP's topic to my own. :P. Lol. Complete cut off from her topic. Total hijack. Heh.

    Sorry you were mislead.

    (Perhaps ur comment says something about you ;)

    [–]AskYous -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

    We rule by what Allaah revealed. We don't change the religion to please the non-Muslims.

    [–]Middlepathmuslim 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

    So why not actually look at what Islam teaches???

    The post says that holding women back is unislamic. That is true.

    The examples given are of Khadijah (ra) and Aisha (ra) two of the mothers of Islam. One was a wealthy business woman - effectively a CEO, so saying that a woman can't run a business goes completely in the face of this. The other led an army. So saying that women can't lead anything is going against Islam.

    Sure there are limits and rules on everything. For example women can't lead a congregational prayer, however this does not go into all aspects of life, which unfortunately in many cultures is an issue.

    You have people saying that women shouldn't get educated, that they don't need to bother getting a job, women shouldn't earn more than their husbands, an educated woman is a turn off/ they wouldn't want to marry them etc.

    So my response to that is 'what are you so scared of?'

    It's an insecurity. These people are so insecure about themselves that they have to put down everyone else around them to feel good. and unfortunately women often make the easier targets.

    There is nothing in my post which would indicate that I am trying to change the religion to please non-muslims whatsoever. In fact I say that if more people practiced Islam properly we wouldn't have nearly as many issues as we do today.

    Women used to be the core of Islamic society. They are the mothers who bring up children in an Islamic manner.

    Aisha (ra) is a massive source of hadiths and teachings about the sunnah. The first martyr for Islam was a woman.There were many female scholars, the first university in the world was founded by a Muslim woman.

    Unfortunately the jahili attitudes you see today no longer allow women to achieve what they are capable of, and this all stems from insecure petty men, not from Islam.

    To ask you a question regarding the post.

    Is it haraam for a woman to own a business/ be a CEO? Absolutely not.

    Is it haraam for a woman to lead an army. No, although in this case it is generally considered to be disliked as women fighting in a war is disliked anyway.

    This is not a changing of the religion. This is our religion.

    [–]AskYous 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    So when you said "You people are the reason so many think Islam is sexist/ patriarchal/ misogynistic etc.", then that didn't mean anything since non-Muslims reactions / thoughts play no role in Islaamic law.

    [–]Middlepathmuslim 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The people referenced are those who are sexist and un-Islamic. And it does mean something because we are the ones who live and breathe Islam, or at least we are supposed to. There is a reason why many people who once had unfavourable impressions of Islam and Muslims changed their minds and eventually became Muslim.

    It's because the people they met actually acted in an Islamic manner and actually had an Islamic mindset.

    Non-Muslim thoughts and reactions have no bearing on Islamic law just as the actions and individual thoughts of Muslims don't have a bearing on the law, however the way in which muslims think and behave does have an impact on the lives of those around them (in this case repressing the women in their lives) and on the image of the message of Islam.

    We should strive to be the best Muslims that we can be however some of the attitudes showcased here are absolutely ridiculous.

    [–]derintellectual 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Aisha (ra) is a massive source of hadiths and teachings about the sunnah. The first martyr for Islam was a woman.There were many female scholars, the first university in the world was founded by a Muslim woman.

    Why do people keep citing this? The first martyr in Islam was a woman. Yes she was but it was not martyrdom in traditional sense of 'the best jihad'. Many female scholars? Just as many there are today. The first university was founded by a woman? On the back of her fathers money, and the first school was set up by a men in China. See how can poke holes in these arguments so easily. You have to come up with better defence against the kufr than this.

    [–]drcl -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Is His revelation sexist?

    [–]AskYous 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Depends what you mean. Sexist is too vague.

    [–]hashtagreckt 24ポイント25ポイント  (7子コメント)

    tbh if Khadijah and Muhammad pbuh existed today a lot of Muslims would say Khadijah is a bad wife and Muhammad is a wuss.

    [–]Drudeboy 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

    When inferiority complexes and chauvinist attitudes toward women come together, no one wins.

    [–]grimreaperx2 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

    People always post these pictures but forget there are so many other factors at play. First society has changed, the way men and women used to be has changed, and no one living today is anything like the Prophet or really anyone living during those times.

    [–]hopopa 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Good point! It's really easy for people to quote ancient books and use them for their argument. It's a really tough subject because everything changes.

    [–]grimreaperx2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Khadijah and Aisha were exceptional women no doubt, but they also didn't have a victim complex or act like they were handicapped because they were women. They played their strengths and weaknesses, took responsibility, and still were good wives. Today it seems there is so much men vs women tension. It's crazy. Everything in life needs balance.

    [–]TheRedThrowAwayPill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    In an American (non-muslim) context? Possibly. I'd say 50/50 chance of that.

    [–]Est_1986 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    That's a weird thing to say. Could you elaborate?

    [–]Zeno90 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    She was a wealthy businesswoman and Muhammad used to work as a merchant for her trading business.

    [–]captak 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

    One of the problems on this subreddit is that I feel many here don't live in an English speaking societies and English isn't their first language and their comprehension of English isn't great (as much as it pains them to admit it because speaking English well is a status symbol). So when Islamic thoughts are posted in English, those people aren't able to understand the meaning behind that message - example, the person who said along the lines of, "so now we want women to aspire to such materialistic goals?" You clearly don't get what this means.

    To the person trying to differentiate equality and fairness in saying women aren't equal to mean in Islam but still receive fairness. You either are terrible at English and don't know the meaning of those words or you're just doing some terrible mental gymnastics to make your false claim seem reasonable to you. Look up on dictionary.com the word "equality." Under the "synonyms" you will find the word "fairness." Equality and fairness are quite literally the same thing. You cannot try to differentiate those two. To do so is again by definition incorrect.

    Also to the people on here legitimately making the claim that women are inferior to men. Do a couple of things. First, go to the woman who gave you birth and tell her to her face she's inferior to you if you really believe the nonsense you say. Second, THINK. Wasn't it Khadija who HIRED the prophet when she was a successful business woman in the 6th century? Wasn't it her who actually proposed to the prophet? A gender role that still is the other way around even in the 21st century yet alone in the 6th century? Wasn't it her who was the first Muslim? Aren't many hadiths and accounts of the prophet from his wives? How can you say women aren't equal to mean in Islam? Women have had as great, if not greater role in shaping Islam than men. After all, the people closest to the prophet in his lifetime were all women. You can't pick and choose which facts of history/religion you accept and which facts you ignore.

    Edit: The issue of gender equality is not a religious one, but a political one. Example, just look at how many times people have used the term "western" in their replies. Being western or eastern isn't an Islamic identifier, it's a political identifier. I'm very western, that doesn't make me any less Muslim.

    [–]Est_1986 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    But islam is inherently political and contradicts "western" ideological thought in many fundamental and periphial aspects.

    [–]Radicool21 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Well said.

    [–]f_leaver 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Wait, so either Saudi Arabia is unislamic or the way they treat women isn't considered holding them back in your opinion.

    Really curious, which is it?

    [–]Middlepathmuslim 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

    They're unislamic in their approach

    [–]MarBakwas 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Uh, they unislamic.

    [–]MeredithofArabia[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Imo, Saudi Arabia isn't especially Islamic. Look at the way migran workers are treated.

    [–]sikagoon7 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Saudi Arabia follows the weirdest interpretation of Islam that is still considered mainstreamish. They suck.

    [–]abdizzle 9ポイント10ポイント  (48子コメント)

    Didn't Aisha lead the army against Ali(RA)? (thats what I read atleast the first Fitna)

    [–]AndTheEgyptianSmiled -4ポイント-3ポイント  (23子コメント)

    She didn't lead it against Ali, she lead it against the killers of Uthman.

    rAa.

    [–]rejectionist 5ポイント6ポイント  (22子コメント)

    But she fought Imam Ali, and fought his army. And he was the one that defeated her and returned her to her home.

    [–]AndTheEgyptianSmiled 1ポイント2ポイント  (21子コメント)

    That's false. She never fought Ali. We know this because of the famous "How can we keep quiet about the blood of Uthman....” speech she gave

    Her speech was so eloquent it caused the Basra army to split in two, half of them joining her. Aisha orders each tribe hands over Uthman's killers, and they did.....all except one (Harqoos ibn Zuhay aSadi, who escaped to Banu Sa’d and found protection with 6,000 of their tribesmen).

    The reason for the Battle of the Camel that occured later was because Ali, Talha, aZubair, Qaqa, and Aisha reached and agreement and the remaining killers secretly embedded knew they were gonna be next.

    In a last ditch effort, the killers of Uthman bin Affan (the ones who hadn't been caught yet) murdered soldiers right before fajr, they made sure to take out from both sides and yell out "They betrayed us! They betrayed us!".

    This caused the confusion that led to the fight, each army thinking the other had betrayed post truce between Ali & Aisha.

    Soon however, Ali met with Talha & aZubair and realized none of them (as in, none of the leaders) were the cause of it.

    [–]rejectionist 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I mean your post is a psychotic diversion from the agreed upon history of every serious Muslim and non-Muslim historian. She fought Imam Ali, thats why its literally called the First Fitnah.

    [–]sln26 -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Nah, you're wrong. He's right.

    [–]rejectionist 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Oh ok, if he's right - who won the Battle of the Camel, why was it called the Battle of the Camel, how was the Battle won, who struck the decisive blow, and what was the immediate aftermath?

    edit for formatting:

    1. Who won the Battle of the Camel?
    2. Why was it called the Battle of the Camel?
    3. How was the Battle won, and who struck the decisive blow?
    4. What was the immediate aftermath?
    5. Who were the topmost commanders on either side of the battlefield?

    [–]sln26 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Here you go. It's the lectures entitled "The Fitnah." They'll answer all your questions.

    [–]rejectionist 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    BS answer. You posted some 6 part MP3 to avoid answering the questions, because the answer would have made you and OP look very foolish.

    Who won the Battle of the Camel?

    Imam Ali.

    Why was it called the Battle of the Camel?

    Because Ayesha rode a camel into the battlefield, and the battle ended when her camel was killed while she was riding it.

    How was the Battle won, and who struck the decisive blow?

    Imam Ali cut the legs off of the camel, thus ending the battle.

    What was the immediate aftermath?

    Imam Ali ordered Ayesha's biological brother to escort her back to her home, and he declared the conflict over.

    Who were the topmost commanders on either side of the battlefield?

    Ayesha on one side, Imam Ali on the other.

    Edit: I didnt need a 6 hour mp3 session to answer these simple "every historian agrees" questions.

    [–]sln26 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    No, I posted a 7hr long MP3 because I thought you were actually interested in the topic and wanted to learn more. If you would prefer to remain in ignorance, that's your prerogative.

    [–]Paragon23100 1ポイント2ポイント  (13子コメント)

    If she lead it against "the killers of Uthman", a man she openly despised and yet supposedly cared so much about after he died, why would she go straight to Basra to raise an army rather than Medina to find the killers?

    Not only that, but why would you go raise an army to attack the Caliph instead of just waiting and trying to have some sort of trial. Wouldn't that be the rational thing to do instead of trying to attack with a massive army?

    These types of mental gymnastics are dishonest, and honestly are mind-boggling attempts to somehow romanticize and change history from what they were. It's actually unbelievable, and so obviously made up they scarcely need a reply. Just reading them shows how ridiculous they are.

    Tens of thousands of people were killed in that battle, that she led against the Imam. You can't just make stuff up and turn the first fitnah into something it's not. And in Sunni history, no one attempts to. Everyone knows she led it, and that it was the first fitnah.

    [–]AndTheEgyptianSmiled -1ポイント0ポイント  (12子コメント)

    I don't know where you get your information from... but you're not exactly a reliable redditor.

    The first fitnah has more to do with how Mu'awiyah & Ali differed on dealing with Uthman's killers, it has very little to do with Aisha rAa seeing as how Ali ensured her safety & honor.

    As for your claim she openly despised Uthman, it's false:

    It was narrated from Masrooq that 'Aa'ishah said, when 'Uthman was killed: You left him like a clean garment, then you decided to slaughter him like a ram. Masrooq said to her: This is your doing; you wrote to the people telling them to rebel against him. 'Aa'ishah said: No, by the One in Whom the believers believe and the disbelievers disbelieve. I have never written anything to them up till now.

    This narration is sahih. And in case you're not wondering, Aisha rAa is explaining to Masrooq that she never wrote letter critiquing Uthman (as it turns out, it was the fabricated letters that the Saba'is had written).

    [–]LabelingTheory 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Everyone knows Aisha fought Ali. All Muslims agree on this. All Muslims know she was in the wrong, and even the majority of Sunni scholars says that she repented.

    Why would she repent if she did nothing wrong? How can you disagree with so much scholarship on the battle of the camel? Every single scholar knows she waged a war against Ali

    [–]AndTheEgyptianSmiled 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You're making the assumption I agree with your false premises.

    I don't.

    [–]Paragon23100 -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

    ... but you're not exactly a reliable redditor.

    ?

    [–]LabelingTheory 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

    ... but you're not exactly a reliable redditor.

    It means you are Shia

    [–]Paragon23100 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Understood.

    [–]AndTheEgyptianSmiled 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

    It has nothing to do with you being Shia, I didn't even know you were Shia.

    I was referring to your (and now /u/LabelingTheory's lack of) intellect & knowledge.

    It amazes me that you two can claim, without a shred of sarcasm, that ALL Muslims are in agreement of this event, while being oblivious of the fact that this has never happened in history. There isn't a single controversial event in history that has consensus.

    You've sacrificed logic.

    Stop wasting my time.

    [–]tiger1296 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Women being held back in definitely a bidah created by tribes. It is more then likely that it began as a cultural thing amongst Arabs, but because Arabs/Saudis do it, it obviously has to be Islamic mentality that people have, it has spread like wildfire.

    [–]TheRedThrowAwayPill -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I don't think normal educational and economic goals are such a big deal. to be opposed for Islamic reasons. They're not such a big deal. So what if our sisters are well read and hold down jobs?

    I think when our religious men hear "western female empowerment" they equate it with "51%+ of this encompasses attaining high sexual partner N count before marriage".

    Our feminist sisters need to detach the haraam from the rest of western women's lib. On top of that they need to detach the anti-family, divisive gender relations that 21st century western feminism has foisted on these cultures.

    EDIT: Please don't downvote this. This is a serious subject. By "religious men" I mean practicing pious brothers - like all of you on this sub (inshallah). I know for a fact that a LOT of the men worry about this topic. And it isn't fair to our sisters to hide it from them. We will all be raising our children in these societies and such we should all be vigilant of the pitfalls of that.

    That's all I'm saying. You must hear me out on this.

    [–]Drudeboy 19ポイント20ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I think when our religious men hear "western female empowerment" they equate it with "51%+ of it this encompasses attaining high sexual partner N count before marriage".

    I think that's the problem of the religious men (in question) to willingly stay misinformed and characterize an entire movement in such a way.

    Feminism is a reaction to the lack of respect for women and their agency in patriarchal societies all over the world. Women and girls are disproportionately subjected to extreme poverty, human trafficking, sexual violence, and domestic violence (especially in developing Muslim countries). They suffer from higher rates of illiteracy and in some countries face de jure or de facto confinement to their homes.

    I get it that many people are uncomfortable with the "sex positive" side of "Western" feminism, but this isn't the thrust of the entire diverse movement. It's about choice and allowing women agency over their own lives.

    Edit in response to edit: If (some) pious men choose to mis-characterize a wide field and ignore the very real problems that feminism is trying to address, it is their own choice. If you want to promote Islamic family values, do it, but help us elevate women and break the silence on prostitution, domestic violence, sexual harassment, and inequality in terms of income and education.

    [–]TheRedThrowAwayPill 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Feminism is a reaction to the lack of respect for women and their agency in patriarchal societies all over the world. Women and girls are disproportionately subjected to extreme poverty, human trafficking, sexual violence, and domestic violence (especially in developing Muslim countries). They suffer from higher rates of illiteracy and in some countries face de jure or de facto confinement to their homes.

    Agreed.

    You must have thought I was against this or something. Sorry, if it was misleading.

    I think that's the problem of the religious men (in question) to willingly stay misinformed and characterize an entire movement in such a way.

    I'm sorry what? That's MEN in the WEST in general. It's the main reason marriage in the West is dying. So it's no wonder our religious men might be afraid of this topic. (And by "religious men" I mean like you and myself living in UK or America.)

    I get it that many people are uncomfortable with the "sex positive" side of "Western" feminism, but this isn't the thrust of the entire diverse movement.

    Right.

    But we already know how this played out. Did you know there are Arab (non-muslim) feminists calling for an "Arab Sexual Revolution"? Along the lines and scale of the 1960's/1970's in America. They literally want sex to be a pusher and mover of societal trends. This is a dangerous game to play with our Islamic edicts and goals in mind.

    Take peer pressure for example. Our sisters worry about wearing Hijab because they have to put up with even more peer pressure than our brothers do. (Of course with that fashion decision comes other decisions that trickle out from uncorking the Hijab). How far does this "blending in" go? Where does it stop? And if millions of our sisters (and brothers) are running thru this obstacle course isn't that, by statistics alone, going to lead to more and more "mistakes"? And then the normalization or acceptance of said mistakes? What does it mean for the next generations?

    It's about choice and allowing women agency over their own lives.

    Correct.

    But it has to be Islamic decision making. I do NOT see enough commentary from this varied group where we are explicitly calling out follow the Lizard under this rock.

    We have to be vigilant of this. We are raising our boys and girls in these societies and this can very very easily go very very wrong.

    I know it's a touchy subject.

    But if we don't address it head on and make sure we look for solutions, we risk the chance of following our Christian counterparts in their post-WWII path.

    (edit: grammar. made clearer points)

    [–]Drudeboy 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I'm sorry what? That's MEN in the WEST in general. It's the main reason marriage in the West is dying. So it's no wonder our religious men might be afraid of this topic. (And by "religious men" I mean like you and myself living in UK or America.)

    Wherever they are, if that's what people think of when they think of feminism, it is there choice, their own willful ignorance.

    But we already know how this played out. Did you know there are Arab (non-muslim) feminists calling for an "Arab Sexual Revolution"? Along the lines and scale of the 1960's/1970's in America. They literally want sex to be a pusher and mover of societal trends. This is a dangerous game to play with our Islamic edicts and goals in mind.

    Man, there are a lot of people who say a lot of things. Brother, I have a feeling you have not read about the movement or that you have little experience with women's rights movements yourself. I plead with you, please put yourself in contact with some people. They are working for women's education, equal rights to healthcare and public spaces.

    So idk. I think you're shooting from the hip, so to speak. Making a lot of generalizations about men and women, Western and otherwise, based on your assumptions.

    But I hope God guides us both.

    [–]TheRedThrowAwayPill 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Wherever they are, if that's what people think of when they think of feminism, it is there choice, their own willful ignorance.

    Maybe we're talking about two different things? Modern American & British men (who sleep with these women and live fully in the fullest sense of the world modernity) increasingly identify with this viewpoint. They aren't ignorant of anything. They read like you and I do.

    Man, there are a lot of people who say a lot of things.

    Yes yes brother; I was just giving an example that it is not a singular movement and it is a wide net. So we shouldn't be surprised if we find some things wholly un-Islamic.

    I plead with you, please put yourself in contact with some people. They are working for women's education, equal rights to healthcare and public spaces.

    I live in the west. We already have all these things. Maybe I don't have much experience with a muslim-women's rights movement? Please do enlighten me on that.

    But I hope God guides us both.

    Inshallah.

    Again, we are not disagreeing. And we both want the same things in the end : a better Islamic ummah. We are not burning any bridges brother.

    Ramadan, Kareem.

    [–]Drudeboy 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    That's good :)

    Yes yes brother; I was just giving an example that it is not a singular movement and it is a wide net. So we shouldn't be surprised if we find some things wholly un-Islamic.

    I guess my point here is that we shouldn't get scared or have an emotional response when we see the word "feminism." Not that you disagree, but just to re-iterate, it is entirely possible to advocate for increased woman's rights in the context of Islam. The sister here simply posted a clever image about female leadership in Islam. Many of the brothers here immediately reacted as if she was advocating some kind of "sexual liberation" ideology.

    If that's the response to the specter of feminism in Islam, then we won't be able to have productive discussions.

    [–]TheRedThrowAwayPill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    it is entirely possible to advocate for increased woman's rights in the context of Islam.

    I couldn't care less about a word... We have Islam!

    Many of the brothers here immediately reacted as if she was advocating some kind of "sexual liberation" ideology.

    Nope - just me! LOL. I wanted to drive the conversation in that direction for a reason : to address head on a PROBLEM that IS PRESENT that some may not know how or want to address.

    [–]FishingForCod 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    To expand on this, feminism is not about women wanting to go topless and flaunt their sexuality freely, it's about rather about the choice. That if they decided that they should do so, men shouldn't stop them. Men have nothing to do with that choice.

    [–]WRX250X 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The Islamic teaching about treatment of women is one of the most misunderstood. Western women generally view Muslim women as repressed and deprived of their rights. The media portrays the stereotypical Muslim woman as fully covered and dominated by her husband, with little more status then a slave. You may be amazed to find, that for 1400 years, Muslim women have been enjoying rights for which western women are still struggling.

    [–]AskYous -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    We use Qur`aan and Sunnah for evidence. Not a random quote or our opinions.

    [–]AskYous 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    We need to go back to the Qur`aan and Sunnah brothers and sisters. This is Islaam, and once we do this, Allaah will help us. So stop downvoting me and join me in obedience to Allaah, and His messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

    فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ

    And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger - Soorat an-Nisaa` (4:59)

    وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ

    It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. - Soorat al-Ahzaab (33:36)

    [–]rejectionist 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Ayesha should not have lead that army. She orchestrated the killing of hundreds or thousands of Muslims for no logical reason.

    [–]LabelingTheory 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Exactly? Do people not know their history what the hell? The battle of the camel killed more muslims than all the previous battles of the Muslims COMBINED

    She should not have led that war.