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                                          [–]TheEmperorsNewHose 668ポイント669ポイント  (34子コメント)

                                          The wording of your question makes it almost impossible to answer in any meaningful way, at least from my reading of it, for one pretty big reason: if you're stipulating the time period as being pre-discovery/understanding of allergies and allergic reactions, the historical sources would, by definition, have been just as ignorant in the matter as the king and his attendants. The best we can hope to do is speculate based on the accounting of the manner of death, but that's hardly going to provide any concrete answers.

                                          [–]JorgeGT 181ポイント182ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                          But my question would be, is there any retrospective diagnosis of allergies, based on historical sources?

                                          Sometimes it is possible that a modern doctor identifies the symptoms described by the historical source as characteristic of some illness that now we know about. In this case something along the lines of the source mentioning "an unknown affliction which appeared anytime ____ ingested or touched ______".

                                          [–]TheEmperorsNewHose 82ポイント83ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                          The best we can hope to do is speculate based on the accounting of the manner of death, but that's hardly going to provide any concrete answers.

                                          That's what I meant when I said this - yes, it's possible to attempt to retroactively apply a modern diagnosis to the symptoms described in the historical source material, but it will almost never rise above, at best, speculation, and at worst, pure guesswork.

                                          [–]DCromo 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          From a medical perspective I'd disagree. Anaphylactic reactions are pretty identifiable. Especially because onset is rapid and deadly. Also, I think if you compared it to commonly used poisons that were used via ingestion through the GI tract you'd be able to further narrow it down.

                                          Retroactively diagnosing something isn't super difficult either. Sure it isn't as straightforward to blunt trauma to the head but if the account included specifics like swelling, redness/itchiness, and difficulty breathing you could def rule out common poisons that might just induce a heart attack or just difficulty breathing.

                                          [–]mdax8414 27ポイント28ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                          Ah, well, it would be fun to speculate a bit, no? So long as it's labeled as guesswork.

                                          Or does this sub disallow ALL speculation?

                                          [–]TheEmperorsNewHose 25ポイント26ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                          If you're citing the speculation of an historical source, I think it's fine, so far as I understand the rules of the sub, or if you're extrapolating on concrete evidence to give a plausible explanation for something - but it really depends on the context and the way you present it.

                                          So, no, it doesn't disallow ALL speculation, but it's strongly discouraged, basically.

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                                                  [–]vertexoflifeModerator | Pornography & Obscenity | History of Privacy[M] 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                  Both Shakespeare and More are literary sources that have been known to dramatize and symbolize in their work. I've removed this source as a result.

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                                                      [–]GIVES_SOLID_ADVICE 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                      We're allergies even nearly as prevalent prior to our awareness of allergies? I've read a similar question to which the answer was that humans hadn't developed allergies as we see them.

                                                      [–]TheEmperorsNewHose 22ポイント23ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                                      Just as it's impossible to really answer the original question, given that there was no awareness of allergic diseases pre-1900, it's pretty close to impossible to answer this question for the same reason - not to mention that, throughout history, 99.99(a thousand more 9's)% of the population lived and died in complete anonymity - our only possible source for historical allergic disease is that infinitesimally small .000000001% of people who were noteworthy enough to have someone write about them, and they're hardly a representative sample.

                                                      That being said, allergies aren't strictly genetic/hereditary, and seem to be linked to diet/environment/exposure to certain diseases/exposure to pollution, so it's possible that they're more prevalent now, especially given our (at least in the developed world) much broader diet and much greater exposure to pollution.

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                                                          [–]Sunjammer0037 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                          I can't imagine food allergies or sensitivities being common historically, especially before agricultural revolution. In some regions there wasn't such a huge vaiety of foods to choose from to begin with. People who were unable to eat some of the common foods would have had a big evolutionary disadvantage and probably wouldn't have survived for long. Besides, allergies are linked to immune system and gut flora and nowadays many Western people tend to have much less diverse gut flora and weker immune system due to not eating some of the beneficial foods like fermented foods, the use of antibiotics and sedentary, too sanitary lifestyles.

                                                          [–]TheEmperorsNewHose 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                          Well, while I think you're right, to a degree, it's also worth noting that most allergies aren't fatal. An allergy to pollen or dogs/cats would have been annoying but wouldn't have killed you off before you were able to procreate. Also, many common allergies today are things that most people would not have been exposed to, historically - peanuts, shellfish, certain medications - and therefore could have passed on to their children without ever having any sort of reaction. Again, I think the moral of this whole story is that it's pretty much impossible to say with any certainty what role allergies may have played in the lives of anyone before 1900.

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                                                                [–]ecigss 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                While I can't answer OP directly, I would like to link to Radiolab's podcast episode "Patient Zero". It covers a few stories but the first is a look into Thyphoid Mary, and the specifics of that case. It's similar to the nature of what OP is asking. If this isn't a acceptable comment please delete.

                                                                [–]vertexoflifeModerator | Pornography & Obscenity | History of Privacy[M] 114ポイント115ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                So, like, I had an allergic attack due to people not following the rules and I've had to delete nearly every answer in this thread.

                                                                Please, no more weak answers or guesses. Remember the rules. As was explained in the excellent recent meta post on "What it means to post a good answer in /r/AskHistorians": If you're choosing to answer a question in /r/AskHistorians, there are three questions you should ask yourself first in turn:

                                                                1. Do I, personally, actually know a lot about the subject at hand?

                                                                2. Am I essentially certain that what I know about it is true?

                                                                3. Am I prepared to go into real detail about this? And also:

                                                                Do not post hopelessly incomplete answers based on a skimming of a Wikipedia article just because nobody has yet replied after a few hours.

                                                                [–]doublefudgebrownies 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                So, is there an "askhistorians" type subreddit where discussion is allowed? Because I feel like op's question would have made for great conversation. R/Askculturalantropologists, maybe?

                                                                [–]Vakieh -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Why would you expect a conversation among laymen from /r/askculturalanthropologists?

                                                                The place for a discussion among people who don't have any relevant qualifications would be /r/askreddit.

                                                                [–]Jame5G 36ポイント37ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                I'll have a go at asking this one. Have there been any instances in which a head of state, while suffering what appears (to us) to be an allergic reaction, punishes someone in the in the mistaken belief said suffering was in fact the result of a botched assassination attempt?

                                                                [–]babelincoln61 11ポイント12ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                                Something better to find out would be: When did we learn about allergies? Was there crossover during medieval times when we knew this or did we find out about allergies after the medieval times?

                                                                Another interesting question, were allergies more prevalent now than they were back then?

                                                                [–]HELPMEIMGONADIE 6ポイント7ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                                [–]UNCOMMON__CENTS 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                Not sure why you're being downvoted.

                                                                The responses in this thread suggest quite strongly that historians, experts in their own field, cannot accurately answer this question. As any genuine expert, they are explicitly stating this. Historical documentation cannot accurately answer this due to the reasons cited.

                                                                However, this is a question that can be answered, and there is scientific data to back that answer. Allergies HAVE become more prevalent over time, and, scientifically, there are a number of ways this has been proven.

                                                                Whether or not an important historical figure died of anaphylactic shock, but was documented as poisoning is easy to discover with proper scientific inquiry. However, it is impossible to conclude anything just using historical accounts.

                                                                It is not uncommon to know the grave sites of important political figures throughout history. King Richard III was discovered under a parking lot 2 years ago. Historical documents would not tell us this, but science can and did.

                                                                Prevalence of specific allergies can be studied in an almost epidemiological way - new foodstuffs have different antigens than the immune system is accustomed to, and there is prolific amounts of data on what food were introduced where and when.

                                                                Allergies are a bit complicated because they're not strictly genetic. Our genetics don't guarantee a specific allergy, but there is a statistical, hereditary relationship.

                                                                This alone yields tremendous amounts of useful information because we have access to the DNA of many historical leaders through their remains. In 2015 it isn't even particularly expensive to find out if you were related to some great king through DNA sequencing.

                                                                A pattern of specific allergies can be found through lineages using the most basic of statistical analysis; this is literally very simple Stats 101 type data analysis.

                                                                TL;DR You are 100% correct that this is a question that has a clear, defined answer. It is a question for r/askscience, not r/askhistorians. There were documentaries and books written on this exact subject 20 years ago. They were in Barnes and Nobles "Science" section, not its "History" section.

                                                                [–]vertexoflifeModerator | Pornography & Obscenity | History of Privacy 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                You're not wrong, and someone could come in here and cite a historical case and make an argument for whether they died of allergies and the impacts and reactions of that, but no one is doing that, perhaps because it doesn't exist or perhaps because no one feels qualified to answer the question.

                                                                In the general, scientific sense, yes, allergies do exist and probably have existed for a long time, but that doesn't answer the question of historical reactions to what we assume are allergies.

                                                                [–]HELPMEIMGONADIE 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                Very detailed response, thanks mate.

                                                                [–]thrasumachos 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                But the discovery of allergies is firmly in the category of the history of science, so a historian who specializes in that field would be qualified to answer it, even more so than a scientist.

                                                                [–]TheEmperorsNewHose 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                                Allergies were first described in a scientific context in 1906, and, since nobody knew what allergies were prior to that, it's impossible to say whether or not they're more prevalent now than in the past.

                                                                [–]bobbyfiend 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                                People keep saying this; however, as stated, it is false. It is not impossible to make any kind of informed guesses about historical descriptions of medical conditions that were not (well) known at the time. Isn't this "throw up our hands/how can we know anything" response the very opposite of the practice of history, anyway?

                                                                As with almost everything we ever know anything about, we can often improve our state of knowledge about these things, but almost never gain an absolute certainty of understanding. But learning something is not the same as something being "impossible" to learn anything about.

                                                                Based on memories from grad school and some basic common sense, here are some points about learning about historical medical conditions:

                                                                • In some cases, a condition has extremely specific symptoms, allowing a reasonable historical description to be reinterpreted in light of new knowledge. This is almost certainly the case with schizophrenia and obsessive-compulsive disorder, for instance--some historical descriptions seem specific and clear enough to rule out other possibilities (in particular cases) with a reasonable degree of certainty.
                                                                • Some conditions leave physical evidence that can be reinterpreted with modern knowledge (e.g., osteoporosis).
                                                                • Sometimes the modern understood cause of a medical condition allows strong statements about historical epidemiology--for example, what we know about the action and heritability of sickle-cell anemia allows reasonable guesses about historical prevalence in some groups.
                                                                • In some cases, hypotheses about how social or environmental changes might have impacted the rates of medical conditions can be tested in smaller societies that have not yet undergone the changes we talk about. Examples include hunter-gatherer groups in which hypotheses about the effects of post-agricultural or post-industrial societies can be tested.

                                                                I'm sure there are other methods, especially with the amazing advances in population genetics and epidemiology that seem to be coming at an alarming rate.

                                                                Simply saying "we can never know because that was history" (I oversimplified a bit) is not an accurate depiction of the situation. We very well might, as far as I know, be able to get reasonable estimates of the prevalence of certain allergies in pre-1900 populations.

                                                                [–]TheEmperorsNewHose 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                                Everything you've said is accurate, but in a very general sense. The question, as it was posed, is almost impossible to answer accurately. The only one of your bullet points that could be used as the basis for any kind of diagnosis is the historical description of the specific symptoms, but being that the people writing those historical descriptions were, by and large, lay-persons when it comes to the field of medicine, they're inherently limited in the information that they're able to convey. "King So-and-So keeled over choking" or "King So-and-So came down with a fever and the sweats" are observationally accurate, but of virtually no use when it comes to trying to piece together a diagnosis retroactively. You mention schizophrenia and obsessive-compulsive disorder, specifically, and I think you're right, those are things you can make informed guesses about based on the historical record, but because they manifest themselves in a longterm pattern of behavior, not, as in this case, an acute allergic reaction, which is much harder to identify beyond "he keeled over and died"

                                                                [–]bobbyfiend 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                In general, I agree, except with your first criticism. Actually, I think allergies are prime suspects for just the kind of historical reverse-engineering that has been done with some other medical diseases:

                                                                • The symptoms of allergies can be described well, and when an important person "keels over and dies," I suspect there is at least occasionally interest in describing his or her symptoms, such as those common to anaphylactic shock (versus other causes). In addition, some allergies follow characteristic developmental trends. This information, with reasonable historical estimates of rates or risks of regicide in the period (or something) might be used more effectively than you suggest to address OP's question.
                                                                • The biological (proximal) causes of most allergy symptoms (i.e., release of histamine from mast cells in response to various triggers) have been known for a while, and in recent years there have been some excellent advances in understanding the potential causes of some allergies and the brain/immune-system connections they entail. This progress isn't going to stop. We can already say with pretty much 100% certainty that Olden Times People (at least post-ice age?) had mast cells with histamine in them, and that these mast cells probably behaved more or less as ours do, in at least many situations.
                                                                • One other method noted above, that could still be relevant, is that of biological/environmental research with pre-industrial societies. As tribespeople of Papua New Guinea move closer and closer to a post-industrial lifestyle, the behavior of their mast cells in response to environmental stimuli can be studied (if nobody is doing this... why not?!). This is exactly the kind of research that can allow estimation of the effects (if any) of contemporary lifestyles and environments on allergy development and symptom presentation, leading to increasingly accurate estimates of prevalence at various historical time periods, which could inform reasonable guesses about the potential causes of particular incidents written in history as regicide (or similar).

                                                                To be fair, your original position (with "impossible" in a key sentence) really isn't tenable unless scientific and historical progress in this domain basically stops. My point is that it's not going to.

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                                                                    [–]VikingBat[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                    I think it's still a valid point

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                                                                        [–]Raptoroo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                                        My answer really isn't about history but I think a person with a deadly allergy back then probably would have died from it young before they got into any positions of power.