全 71 件のコメント

[–]kitcat_kittycat 37ポイント38ポイント  (19子コメント)

it is perfectly designed to convince people who value science/intellectualism but aren’t actually scientists or intellectuals.

Reddit in a nutshell.

[–][削除されました]  (18子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–][削除されました]  (17子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]EuropeanNationalist2 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (16子コメント)

      Please tell me how that is different from this subreddit?

      This submission in particular criticizes a website for using non-scholarly sources (wut?) while the critique itself doesn't use non-scholarly sources (an article from The Atlantic written by some talent-less black guy with no scientific credentials).

      The submission also doesn't give any critique other than attacking the source. The absurd argument is made that THE WEBSITE IS is an example of Gish Galloping, someone the website is involved in a debate or something? Gish Galloping refers to a debate technique where you overwhelm your opponent with arguments and don't allow them to reply. I don't think that involves putting up links to interesting articles on a website. LOL

      [–]TheZizekiest[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (14子コメント)

      an article from The Atlantic written by some talent-less black guy with no scientific credentials

      "While I would not take this The Atlantic article as gospel, it is non-academic as any of the HBDR sources, it provides an explanation of the basic position"

      The critical examination of sources is the difference. Rather than just presenting them I detail and evaluate the sources and the claims within.

      [–]kitcat_kittycat 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Gish Galloping refers to a debate technique where you overwhelm your opponent with arguments and don't allow them to reply. I don't think that involves putting up links to interesting articles on a website. LOL

      Oh, you're totally right! The mods and participants of a virulently racist subreddit dedicated to promoting their racism are just interested in "links to interesting articles on a website" and totally have no ulterior motive in putting up a massive collection of unexamined sources that just happen to support their white supremacist positions. Nope, they are definitely not interested in presenting any kind of argument or thesis there!

      As for your issue with sources--the author of this post straight-up says their goal was to examine the validity of the unexamined sources placed on that subreddit. That is, to counter the Gish Gallop.

      re: Atlantic article, please note the OP:

      While I would not take this The Atlantic article as gospel, it is non-academic as any of the HBDR sources

      Also, lawls at "talent-less black guy". So much jealous butthurt. Poor babby, let me guess, nobody but the skinheads will hold your hand, right?

      [–]websterandy42Cultural Marxism is just Cultural Hegelism flipped on its head 37ポイント38ポイント  (5子コメント)

      I’m what is called, in technical terms, a masochist.

      Truest words in /r/BadSocialScience history.

      [–]TheZizekiest[S] 16ポイント17ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Haha whoops. Getting my technical terms confused in sentence two not a good sign!

      [–]gamegyro56 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I’m what is called, in technical terms, a sadist

      I'm a masochist, so this really got my hopes up for the rest of your post, but it ended up being a big let down. So...good job, I guess.

      [–]SinfulSinnerSinning 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

      The main claim of this book is that human genetic diversity has increased at a greater rate since some 10,00 years ago.

      Found another typo (emphasis mine), so you must be wrong! Guess I'll sub to /r/CoonTown now.

      And here:

      (South American Explorers)[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_American_Explorers]

      [–]TheZizekiest[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      There's a lot of typos in there. I have this thing where when I finish writing something I don't edit it because I'm sick of the sight of it.

      that there have between genetic changes

      between should be been

      Is another typo. The writing is also atrocious. There are some abysmal sentences in there. It really could have done with an edit. Maybe tomorrow.

      [–]interiot 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Muphry's Law: "If you write anything criticizing editing or proofreading, there will be a fault of some kind in what you have written."

      [–]SnugglerificThe archaeology of ignorance 24ポイント25ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Cochran, Gregory and Henry Harpending. 10,000 Year Explosion. New York: Basic Books, 2010

      This is actually a pretty bad book -- I did some posts on it here a while back. I don't know enough about genetics to evaluate the main claim that evolution has sped up over the last 10,000 years, but they don't make the case for it very well and the sourcing is pretty patchy.

      I can’t actually access this article, my university has not subscribed to Mankind Quarterly

      I doubt many do because it's a white supremacist journal and only "peer-reviewed" in the loosest sense. The outfit that publishes it is a eugenicist think tank set up by Roger Pearson and the editor is Richard Lynn, one of the poster boys for contemporary scientific racism.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mankind_Quarterly

      [–]TheZizekiest[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Yea I figured it was a terrible book. I just wanted to make my claims as mediated as possible. By outright claiming the book as bad/wrong race realists can fall back on the lactose tolerance and sickle celled anemia claims, but by making a weaker claim and acknowledging that it might have some value gives them (should they ever see this) much less wiggle room.

      I also didn't want to call the journal out too much. If I call it an echo chamber race realists would likely call academia an echo chamber, and that discussion goes nowhere. So I was as nice to it as I could be, acknowledged the potential bias and just moved on.

      [–]SnugglerificThe archaeology of ignorance 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

      This sub is already on the is_cuckbot shitlist, so I imagine it's not going to make much of a difference.

      [–]nota999 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The hero of badsocialscience

      [–]XRotNRollX 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

      good job, but none of it matters because they'll just claim that all peer-reviewed things are done by DA J00Z and that they censor THE PURE WHITE TRUTH, so that's why nothing is peer-reviewed

      [–]TotesMessenger 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

      If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

      [–]DanglyW 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Well done, good start! You might want to check the sidebar at /r/againsthatesubreddits where we link some other refutations of their sources or further explanations for their misinterpretations of things.

      Also worth looking into David Duke's so called 'PhD'. It's pretty hilarious once you see how he got his 'degree'.

      [–]SnapshillBot 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Snapshots:

      1. This Post - 1, 2, 3

      2. Human Biological Diversity resource - 1, 2, 3

      3. Gish Gallop - 1, 2, 3

      4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South... - 1, 2, Error

      5. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Steve_... - 1, 2, 3

      6. Here is an article, of at least the... - 1, 2, 3

      7. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB11504... - 1, 2, 3

      8. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB12344... - 1, 2, 3

      9. http://infoproc.blogspot.co.nz/2008... - 1, 2, 3

      I am a bot. (Info / Contact)

      [–]TwoFiveOnes 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

      You seem like someone that would be very interested in reading Richard Lewontin. The only "catch" is that some arguments are only fully understandable to a biologist, or more specifically someone versed in genetics. Still, I for example am neither and I find that I can understand his points (also, a lot of them don't refer to biology at all).

      Here are some (superb!) videos:

      What I said about being a biologist doesn't apply here, the lectures are very moderate in this aspect. Oh and spoilers, the answers are "probably not", and "...Yeah, OK", respectively.

      Not to mention his books (of which I've read just a few chapters):

      Keep up the good writing!

      [–]JP_Rushton 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Lewontin is a hack.

      [–]TwoFiveOnes 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Can you explain? While I don't believe you, I try not to put anybody on a pedestal and am interested in counterarguments.

      [–]SnugglerificThe archaeology of ignorance 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Lewontin is in large part responsible for population genetics as we know it today, so obviously not a hack. I always thought, though, that in debunking bio-determinism in the way he did, that he engaged in overkill. For example, he once said "It might be interesting to know how cognition (whatever that is) arose and spread and changed, but we cannot know. Tough luck." It's a pretty sweeping dismissal of the work going on in cog sci, paleoanth, paleoarch, primatology, comparative analyses, ancient DNA, and evo bio.

      Lewontin RC (1998) The evolution of cognition: Questions we will never answer. In: An Invitation to Cognitive Science. 2nd edition. Volume 4: Methods, models and conceptual issues (Scarborough D, Sternberg S, Osherson D, eds), 107–132. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.

      [–]JP_Rushton 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Lewontin is a Marxist, which seems to be the relevant factor. It isn’t a secret that he’s a Marxist, he writes about it all the time. He’s not reluctant to say it in public or write it. Of course Gould was also a Marxist but he seemed to want to keep a little meore under wraps.

      I think you should concentrate less on what Lewontin says and more on why he says it. What are the genetic underpinnings of political position?

      [–]JP_Rushton 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      In popular articles that play down the genetical differences among human populations, it is often stated that about 85% of the total genetical variation is due to individual differences within populations and only 15% to differences between populations or ethnic groups. It has therefore been proposed that the division of Homo sapiens into these groups is not justified by the genetic data. This conclusion, due to R.C. Lewontin in 1972, is unwarranted because the argument ignores the fact that most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data and not simply in the variation of the individual factors. The underlying logic, which was discussed in the early years of the last century, is here discussed using a simple genetical example.

      http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.174.698&rep=rep1&type=pdf

      http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/to-classify-humanity-is-not-that-hard/#.VZ2HiPlVhBc

      http://toqonline.com/archives/v5n1/TOQv5n1Jones.pdf

      https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/05/19/phenotypes-vs-genetic-statistics/

      http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/11/human-genetic-variation-fst-and.html

      Lewontin is a known Marxist, which says all that needs to be said pretty much.

      [–]JP_Rushton -2ポイント-1ポイント  (29子コメント)

      You hardly said anything of note. All you did was attack the sources and hardly say anything about them.

      Your main points seem to be against the 10,000 Year Explosion. We are evolving faster because there has hardly been any any flow of genes between the regions.

      "Human races are evolving away from each other," Harpending says. "Genes are evolving fast in Europe, Asia and Africa, but almost all of these are unique to their continent of origin. We are getting less alike, not merging into a single, mixed humanity." He says that is happening because humans dispersed from Africa to other regions 40,000 years ago, "and there has not been much flow of genes between the regions since then."

      http://unews.utah.edu/old/p/120607-1.html

      You should make some comments on Steve Sailer's blog and speak directly to him and come back when your conversation is done. That's the one person you can speak directly to.

      About the 5 stages of HBD, those are arguments that are used when some people are approached with things that they don't want to hear.

      Do you not believe that humans spread globally and evolved locally? Do you believe there wasn't different selection pressures based on where that population group or race, whichever you want to call it, spent 10s of thousands of years separated?

      A couple of months ago, a Nature article came out stating that all human traits are around 49 percent heritable. It's the largest meta study of twins ever with over 14 million twins. That's what was found. Yes, most traits are heritable, what's wrong with saying that?

      Attacks on Frost.

      Of course evolution didn't stop 40,000 years ago. You'd have to be a fool to believe that.

      Are you going to link to Franz Boas and Stephen J Gould next and say they're right?

      You hardly said anything of note, attacked 1 source for basically the whole post. Good job.

      [–]ArtHousePunk 3ポイント4ポイント  (22子コメント)

      You hardly said anything of note. All you did was attack the sources and hardly say anything about them.

      I'll give you a minute to realize the contradiction here.

      [–]JP_Rushton -2ポイント-1ポイント  (21子コメント)

      There is a difference. I said something of note. Reread my post.

      OP should go and speak to Steve Sailer directly, would you not agree?

      [–]ArtHousePunk 3ポイント4ポイント  (20子コメント)

      You seem confused about what you read, I didn't take /u/TheZizekiest's main point to be that the "10,000 year explosion is wrong" but that Coontown is attempting to make their little internet theory more robust through deceit, the deception being that they use multiple sources linking back to the same primary source.

      No, I don't agree. Steve Sailer is a journalist, I wouldn't imagine the conversation would be a productive use of their time.

      [–]JP_Rushton -2ポイント-1ポイント  (19子コメント)

      Not confused at all. The main point to this post was The 10,000 Year Explosion. Internet theory? Explain please.

      Why don't you agree? He's talking about Mr. Sailer, well he can go and directly correspond and report back. It seems like a productive use of his time as he spent the time to make this post and say what's wrong with what he says, so he should go and directly correspond with him.

      [–]ArtHousePunk 2ポイント3ポイント  (18子コメント)

      Sure it was, buddy, sure it was.

      Internet theory? Explain please.

      HBD is not an idea taken seriously anywhere but among racists on the internet.

      I just told you why I don't agree, Sailer is not an academic and I don't believe debating him directly would be a productive use of OP's time.

      [–]JP_Rushton 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

      I just told you why I don't agree, Sailer is not an academic and I don't believe debating him directly would be a productive use of OP's time.

      But OP used his time to talk about one of his pieces, so surely he it would be a productive use of his time to speak directly to the author, no?

      [–]ArtHousePunk 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

      No

      [–]JP_Rushton 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

      Yes it is. He used his time to use one of his articles, so he should go speak to him and report back here. He's talking about a man who can't defend what this user is saying about him.

      The OP should man up and go talk to Steve Sailer directly. It definitely is productive as he can talk about Sailer when he can't defend his work.

      So if he wants to talk about Sailer's work on Reddit, he can go talk to him himself and report back here. Simple. Unless... he knows that Sailer knows what he's talking about?

      [–]ArtHousePunk 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

      So if anyone criticizes anyone about anything they ever say they have a moral obligation to seek them out and debate them?

      [–]EuropeanNationalist2 -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

      Then why do pharmaceutical companies test medicines on different races? It's well known that some medication affects the different races differently. Why can forensic anthropologists determine the race of skeleton?

      [–]SnugglerificThe archaeology of ignorance 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Race is used as a proxy in medicine for a number of factors. As Francis Collins puts it:

      'Race' and 'ethnicity' are poorly defined terms that serve as flawed surrogates for multiple environmental and genetic factors in disease causation, including ancestral geographic origins, socioeconomic status, education and access to health care.

      http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1436.html

      Racial disparities can be created through social ones. Here is my more in-depth defense of using race in medicine without engaging in racialism.

      As far as forensics, the same thing seems to be the case in that this is a very rough proxy for geographic ancestry and race is matched to how it is defined in a culturally specific context. At least this is the case in the US, anyone with more knowledge of forensics can correct me on that. Norman J. Sauer notes this as standard practice in the US.

      That the view of human races employed in forensic anthropology is a non-scientifically established version of the Big Three is illustrative. To be of value the race categories used by forensic anthropologists must reflect the everyday usage of the society with which they interact. In ascribing a race name to a set of skeletonized remains, the anthropologist is actually translating information about biological traits to a culturally constructed labelling system that was likely to have been applied to a missing person. In North America, for example, people who display certain skeletal features are likely to have been called Black. And since the goal in forensic identification cases is to find agreement between the biological profile generated from a skeleton to a missing person report, it only makes sense to use the emit categories that are likely to have been used to describe the missing person.

      Collins, Francis S. (2004) What we do and don't know about 'race', 'ethnicity', genetics and health at the dawn of the genome era. Nature Genetics 36, S13 - S15 http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1436.html

      Sauer, Norman J. (1992) Forensic Anthropology and the Concept of Race: If Races Exist, Why Are Forensic Anthropologists So Good at Identifying Them? Sm. Sri. Med. Vol. 34, No. 2, pp. 107-111 http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp202-us13/files/2012/05/Sauer-1992-Forensic-Anthropology-Race-Concept-1.pdf

      [–]EuropeanNationalist2 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

      No idea what you're talking about when talking about 'racialism'. Also not sure about those weird quotes.

      In ascribing a race name to a set of skeletonized remains, the anthropologist is actually translating information about biological traits to a culturally constructed labelling system that was likely to have been applied to a missing person. In North America, for example, people who display certain skeletal features are likely to have been called Black.

      Yeah that's true and that's the whole point.

      And since the goal in forensic identification cases is to find agreement between the biological profile generated from a skeleton to a missing person report, it only makes sense to use the emit categories that are likely to have been used to describe the missing person.

      This is incorrect. It's a disingenuous argument because forensic anthropologists do try to match a skeleton with a missing person report but that stands aside from that fact that they can determine race without a missing person report. It might be used to help determine a more specific ethnicity within a race.

      The FDA approved a drug which ONLY works for black people:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/24/health/fda-approves-a-heart-drug-for-africanamericans.html

      Here's a scientific paper:

      http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/118/13/1383.full

      Ethnic Differences in Cardiovascular Drug Response Potential Contribution of Pharmacogenetics

      [–]SnugglerificThe archaeology of ignorance 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      No idea what you're talking about when talking about 'racialism'.

      Don't have any patience for euphemistic newspeak.

      Also not sure about those weird quotes.

      They're pretty self-explanatory. Read the rest of the papers if you don't understand.

      Yeah that's true and that's the whole point.

      This is incorrect. It's a disingenuous argument because forensic anthropologists do try to match a skeleton with a missing person report but that stands aside from that fact that they can determine race without a missing person report. It might be used to help determine a more specific ethnicity within a race.

      The point is that the profiles are created by reference to culturally defined and specific priors. The database and priors used in the analysis affect the outcome of the analysis. Konigsberg, Algee-Hewitt, and Steadman have a paper that shows how this works. They take a case study where using uninformative priors results in remains being identified as Pacific Islander, but using informed priors (the geographic context of Iowa and the state census data), the remains are identified as white.

      The FDA approved a drug which ONLY works for black people:

      No, the sources don't say it only works for blacks nor does it work for all blacks:

      No one is sure why BiDil works better in blacks than in other races, but scientists theorize that it is because BiDil increases the body's levels of nitric oxide, a naturally occurring compound. Many heart failure patients suffer from a deficiency of nitric oxide, but the deficiency is more common in African-Americans.

      Although the BiDil label will say the drug is for self-identified black patients, many cardiologists believe BiDil will work for many people of other races as well. Wall Street is factoring use of the drug by people of other races into its forecasts for BiDil. Analysts' sales predictions range from $500 million to $1 billion by 2010. (Times article)

      Isosorbide-Hydralazine [BiDil is the brand name]

      If one accepts that I-H is more efficacious in blacks than whites, a potential explanation for such a finding is that there might be a “responsive” genotype that occurs exclusively or more commonly in blacks. Work is ongoing in the A-HeFT genetic substudy to address this question. However, equally likely as a genetic or ethnic explanation for the I-H findings is that response differences highlight differences in 2 different heart failure phenotypes, which happen to differ by ethnicity. Specifically, blacks are significantly more likely to have hypertensive heart failure, whereas the underlying cause is more likely to be ischemic heart disease in whites. Thus, it is possible that blacks and whites with hypertensive heart failure would respond equally well to I-H and that ethnicity per se is not the source of response differences. It is unlikely that there will be future studies that sufficiently dissect the role of genetics versus differences in phenotype in the response differences to I-H. However, whichever of these might be the explanation, either would highlight that a proportion of whites would be expected to benefit from I-H, and a proportion of blacks would be expected to not benefit. [from the Johnson paper]

      Race is being used as a messy proxy again. Race was self-reported in the trials, so we don't know the actual geographic ancestry. In fact, the paper goes on to agree with the Collins paper I posted above that patient-specific information will be more useful:

      Despite the many challenges, it appears that in at least some cases, pharmacogenetic findings may help to explain ethnic differences in response. As the goals of personalized medicine begin to be realized, it is possible that use of genetic and other patient-specific information, including environmental factors, will be superior to use of ethnic information and will help guide drug therapy decisions for certain drugs.

      Konigsberg, Lyle W., F.B. Algee-Hewitt, and Dawnie Wolfe Steadman. (2009) Estimation and evidence in forensic anthropology: Sex and race. American Journal of Physical Anthropology Volume 139, Issue 1 Pages 1–107

      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20934/abstract

      [–]ArtHousePunk 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

      And? They also test alternative medications on people with allergies to more commonly prescribed medicines, are people with allergies a different race?

      [–]EuropeanNationalist2 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Why would they need to test medicine on different races? Take a wild guess.

      [–]ArtHousePunk 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      I don't need to take a wild guess, I know why, you aren't telling me some world-shaking bit of information that's caused me rethink my entire outlook. It's as relevant to a discussion of race as genetic predisposition towards an allergy to cats.

      [–]SnugglerificThe archaeology of ignorance 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

      It's ridiculous to say that evolution stopped 40kya, but that doesn't entail swallowing whole racialist claims.

      [–]JP_Rushton -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I wholeheartedly agree with that notion. Can you give me an example of swallowing whole racialist claims?

      [–]SnugglerificThe archaeology of ignorance 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Uh, the subject of this post.

      [–]JP_Rushton -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

      It took one section and used attacks on the piece, hardly refuting them. I find it so funny how some college kid can think he can refute a whole website dedicated to HBD.

      So, human biological diversity is fake? No differences between humans exist? We're all physically different, yet our brains stayed the same?

      [–]SnugglerificThe archaeology of ignorance 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Sorry, no one thinks that there are no differences between humans. I don't argue with straw men.

      [–]TheZizekiest[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      All you did was attack the sources and hardly say anything about them

      Well I said that a lot of the sources didn't actually wholeheartedly support the positions I took them to be presented as holding. So that's saying something. I also showed that they have a small sample size, and are mostly non-academic, so that's something too.

      We are evolving faster because there has hardly been any any flow of genes between the regions.

      And several people, some of whom I referenced in OP, claim we do not have the technology or the ability to empirically verify this claim.

      Do you believe there wasn't different selection pressures based on where that population group or race...

      No, I just don't think that they had a significant behaivour, nor do I think that these differences correspond with what people usually mean when they talk about race. I said in my post "genetic differences between human populations have likely arisen since the development of agriculture." Did you even read the whole thing?

      49 percent heritable...Yes, most traits are heritable,

      49% isn't most, its as close to most as you can be without being most, but it isn't most. This may be true, I haven't read the article, but if you are going to claim this you should source the article, so I can read it! Don't just be like "Well Nature said this." Be like "Here, look at what Nature has to say on this matter." There is nothing wrong with saying "most traits are inheritable" there is a problem with saying that without discussing what is meant by a trait, and without posting sources.

      Of course evolution didn't stop 40,000 years ago. You'd have to be a fool to believe that.

      And I don't believe that. The truth of this proposition does not, however, entail race realism.

      Are you going to link to Franz Boas and Stephen J Gould next and say they're right?

      Probably not. I'd probably link someone more recent. And my goal isn;t to say who is right or wrong, my goal is to critically analyse things and see, at the end of it all, which claims are reasonable and which aren't. I am not the independent, omniscient verifier of knowledge, it's not my place to say whose right or wrong. I do, however, have the ability, through reading widely, to critique arguments, and that is what I am doing.

      attacked 1 source for basically the whole post

      Because out of 8 sources one was that source, and five referenced it or the author. That wasn't my choice.