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[–]UCdivinity 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lurker here but joined because I have read Malhotras books. I looked at the link and honestly it's hard to follow in the Twitter format. I hope it comes together in a more readable way when all is said and done so I can better digest it as a whole. It's a big claim to make, but the bits and pieces posted so far would certainly meet the standards of plagiarism at my university (I'm not at Princeton).

[–]rajivmalhotra 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I read through the thread this morning and I quickly realized that engagement with each and every poster is redudant and will not further this discussion. That that end, these are some thoughts I wanted to get off my chest. For the sake of simplicity, since Malhotra likes to address his devotees using his yahoo group, from now on I will refer to them as Malhotra's Yahooligans.

  1. What is plagiarism? Most of the Yahooligans are nitpicking the definiton of plagiarism. It is very clear and this point has been made repeatedly throughout the thread that plagiarism is the idea of taking someone else's work as passing it off as one's own. Not attributing citations properly and directly lifting lines meets this universal defintion, plain and simple.

  2. What are our standards for plagiarism? Richard Fox Young made clear in his initial tweets why he was using Princeton standards. Malhotra is from the city of Princeton, NJ and he has actually claimed the city as part of his aura of credibility. Princeton University is a globally renowed academic institution with guidelines as good as any. If one looks up any academic or publishing guidelines, they would find consistency with Princeton's guidelines. The burden of proof does not fall on Young or some others on this thread to show how Malhotra meets the definition of plagiarism by EVERY standard. In fact, the burden falls on Malhotra's Yahooholigans to show by which academic or ethical standards Malhotra's transgressions stand up against.

  3. So what? Malhotra's Yahooligans have fallen back on the argument that this is a very minimal transgression at worst, akin to forgetting to dot the i's and cross the t's. This is incorrect. In the words of Rajeev Malhotra himself, plagiarism is an unethical act which steals from others. If the readers of this are not convinced by the intrinsic ethical problems with plagiarism, I don't think I'll be able to convince them. This plagiarism is not a mistake, it is a consistent transgression across his works.

  4. Why should Malhotra follow the standards of academic "sepoys"? One, these are universal standards that apply to non peer-reviewed journals as well. Newspaper writers, college students, speech writers and those who give public addresses are held to the same standard. Two, Malhotra is a participant in the academic community- he writes books, speaks at conferences and seeks to be a scholarly voice for Hinduism. He CANNOT have his cake and eat it too. If he wants to be accepted as a voice in the academic or even Hindu community, he cannot run away from universal standards.

  5. This isn't Malhotra's fault- blame the publisher This one is simple. An author takes responsibility for what he publishes. He derives the benefit from his works and he is responsible. Moreover, the arguments that "quotes and citations" distract the reader are nonsensical and do not hold any water in any capacity.

  6. A comment on attack tactics It is frightening to see the type of language used by Malhotra. Not only is he attempting to use the race card and trying to belittle his opponents as "sepoys" but the use of militaristic language is most concerning. This morning, Malhotra tweeted, "We use folks like RFY for target practice." The use of violent phrasing is unacceptable, unbecoming of an intellectual and reflects poorly on Malhotra's maturity. Malhotra's Yahooligans fall under the same guise of American tea party members at best and conservative Islamist extremists at worst. They refuse to listen to other opinions, deningrate others and resort to unsubstantiated, ad hominem attacks ie sepoys, the white man, western christians etc. Screenshots from yahoo available elsewhere on this thread demonstrate the strategy of the Yahooligans in plain light. I quote the Yahoo thread, "we need different tactics 'gutter tactics' to deal with them." The stated goal of the Yahooligans is to shut down discussion.

  7. A conclusion Malhotra is showing his true colors. He is hiding in his Yahoo group riling up his Yahooligans in a militaristic manner while sending off random tweets. He is resorting to name-calling, ad hominem attacks and doing everything to distract from the greater issue that he is a plagiarist. I do not blame him for his response. A thief tries to get away when he is caught and this is no different. This has the potential to end Malhotra's career, lead to intellectual property lawsuits, and his relationships with his publishers. If Malhotra were a true academic, he would welcome debate. If he wants to retain anything good in his work, he must take responsilbity and move on, otherwise this will catch up to him and his Yahooligans will not be able to protect him.

This post will likely get downvoted by the Yahooligans who have joined Reddit and that's fine. Downvotes and ad hominem attacks will not change the truth. My reddit karma might be low, but unlike Rajiv Malhotra and his followers, I'm not worried about my real karmic balance.

Tl;dr: Malhotra is showing his true colors, riling up his pseudo-militaristic supporters ie Yahooligans. They are not interested in debate, they just want to ignore everything, name-call and set up ad hominem attacks on others, and shut down discussion. Don't bother to engage them. Some people's minds can't be changed.

[–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yahooligans! Love it. Ironic that yahooligans also used to be a website for kids, very appropriate for how they act.

[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So are we now stooping to the level of impersonating someone else? Great going sepoys! Bow to your firang masters!

[–]SwadhisthanaShaktaa 5ポイント6ポイント  (15子コメント)

I'm torn on this. I'm pretty firmly on the political left, but I love so much of what Malhotra is trying to say. The monotheistic bias so omnipresent in how Hinduism is presented is awful and pernicious, and it's about damn time we took our own viewpoints and critiqued the rest of the religions of the world rather than roll over and simply allow ourselves to be labelled.

These accusations don't really surprise me that much. He's not trained as an academic (which I am sure pisses a lot of folks off) - he's an ex-engineer, and we scientists takes shortcuts and build off the works of others to get to the end result.

[–]americanvedic[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I would argue that most in the scientific field actually value proper citations. Every peer reviewed scientific journal has strict anti plagiarism guidelines on par with the Princeton University guidelines.

[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes. Science is extremely heavy on proper citations, but the rigor, and pitfalls, are definitely different in the Liberal Arts. I would argue that in the Liberal Arts you need an even closer eye. You need to be extra vigilant, because even when you write a sentence that you're totally sure you wrote you can fall prey to Cryptomnesia, and it turns out was a regurgitation of something you've read previously.

So you need to go through each idea, each sentence, each claim, and search proper citations for them.

[–]asubmani -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which anti plagiarism guideline did Rajiv Malhotra violate? As per Princeton's booklet on "Academic Integrity" http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/academic-integrity-2011b.pdf a 'Paraphrase' need not use quotation marks; but a footnote is an absolute requirement. RM has provided footnotes. Why accuse RM of "Paraphrasing" and focus attention on guidelines for citing "Quotations". There is a reason why Princeton has separate guidelines for "Quotations" and "Paraphrasing" (HINT: The 2 are different!)

[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

Unfortunately it's not that uncommon even for serious academics to have poor, improper, or lack of proper citation. If there's possibility for grammatical errors, there's definitely a possibility for improperly citing sources.

For example, while not being an Academic, but definitely held to the same standards Fareed Zakaria is accused of widespread plagiarism as well.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/02/michael-kinsley-fareed-zakaria-plagarism

Professor Terrance Deacon from UC Berkeley.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/10/22/berkeley-launches-plagiarism-investigation-light-public-nature-complaints

Jane Goodall

http://mosaicscience.com/story/conversation-with-jane-goodall

She has just been going through proofs of her updated book Seeds of Hope, the first edition of which was troubled by allegations of plagiarism.

There are hundreds more.

I'm by no means excusing RM for his improper citation, nor am I saying that he didn't plagiarize. RM definitely needs to get on that, and fix those citations. All I'm trying to point out is that it is an unfortunately common mistake, whether malicious, or not, in academia. To say that it invalidates, or somehow makes Rajiv unethical is a bit sensationalistic. I don't think think he maliciously plagiarized, but rather had a lack of resources/time/experience. I mean it seems like he's a one man show, and needs a decent academic editor. I hope RM is going to address these issues, and I'm sure that he'll fix them.

If he comes out, and says that'll fix the errors that Fox highlights, and release a new version, I think it would sufficiently address the issue at hand. But I don't think it helps Malhotra's case if he side steps the issues.

[–]vodoomamajuju 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

Those are great examples. It's nearly impossible to judge maliciousness. It is ironic however that Malhotra accused others of plagiarizing his work last year on similar grounds. I quote Malhotra himself

https://mobile.twitter.com/rajivmessage/status/530108905989623808

He should hold himself to the same standards.

[–]TweetsInCommentsBot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

@RajivMessage

2014-11-05 21:26 UTC

Plagiarism = stealing the phala (reward) without earning it with karma/tapasya. Only fools say that such tamas is good for Hinduism


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[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

That doesn't not invalidate his claims, but he definitely should hold himself to his own words if he's to maintain his integrity.

Maybe RM needs to take a break, because I just feel that he's getting a little heavy handed, and needs to reevaluate his position. You can get lost in a black hole after doing the same thing, and start losing a proper grounding in reality. You can't succumb to sycophants, or become one to one's own self to feed the ego. You need to balance yourself with proper criticism, something I'm sure he's not alien to considering his business pedigree, but nonetheless something needs to consider.

I really respect RM, and I really like reading his books, which has provided me with an undoubtedly invaluable perspective, so I really hope everything works out for him.

[–]Jahaji 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

I am grateful, as a student, for the balanced discussion here, unlike what we are seeing, unfortunately on Twitter, from Mr. Malhotra and his supporters. Ad hominem comments are not helpful. This issue is simple: Is there plagiarism in the examples provided? He seems to be using Princeton University guidelines and the standards are fairly uniform across the US Universities. So far, Mr. Malhotra has not addressed this central issue and his supporters are not helping.

[–]UCdivinity 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am also very grateful for this civilized discussion. Followers can be scary at times and it seems like the Twitter folks are getting ready to resort to more drastic tactics. I am a member of Malhotras Yahoo group. This is the type of convo going on there! http://imgur.com/xMMw9xq

[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

If we're going to be fair, both have bigoted followers. Followers bother me the most, because they seem to be the most blind, and impervious to facts, regardless of the situation. Just because one side is right does not validate the blind follower's dogmatism.

If only people were less dogmatic, and invested a little more energy in inquiry.

[–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I took a look at Indra's Net Acknowledgements. He has a long list of assistants and researchers. I think we may learn something of the Indian publishing business. Hopefully, HarperCollins has a rigorous review process for its books. After all, publishers do have some responsibility for what goes under their label.

[–]asubmani 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Please see the actual guidelines posted by Princeton before dismissing RM for improper citation. http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/academic-integrity-2011b.pdf RM has followed the guidelines that are an "Absolute Requirement" for paraphrasing. Quotes are optional while paraphrasing vs Footnotes which are an "Absolute requirement". RM paraphrased (as per americanvedic's own admission in his allegation) and provided footnotes (again admitted by americanvedic in his tweets). So why waste energy on "guidelines for quotations" when RM is "Paraphrasing" and HAS MET the guidelines for paraphrasing!

[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

But there are instances where direct quotations are not put into quotes. He directly copies, and pastes passages from other sources, and fails to put quotes.

This is a battle that he's going to have to face, and not because Fox is white, but because he actually has a valid criticism this time...

[–]americanvedic[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

I have been following Malhotra on Twitter today and I honestly don't get his response. He is claiming that he has responded when all he has done has said that he has stuff in his references. Here is an example https://twitter.com/richardfoxyoung/status/617885374946365440

There is no ambiguity here, this is direct plagiarism. Malhotra and his posse are going to down vote this (as they already have) but I will continue to post these. Note that Malhotra hasn't responded using academic standards.

[–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

http://imgur.com/bRUpbI6

Latest evidence

[–]akhilkodali -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Where did Nicholson get them from?. These sentence constructs in that way are new for people in this tradition. Read the commentaries on Bhagavad Gita(for one) which pre-date Nicholson.

[–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nicholson cited his sources properly

[–]TweetsInCommentsBot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

@RichardFoxYoung

2015-07-06 02:38 UTC

@arvindneela @RajivMessage @E_P_W Count 'em up, Aravindan! U're the .@SwarajyaMag Science Guy—62 of #Olender's words!

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[–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント  (21子コメント)

Sad to see Mr. Malhotra adding race to this discussion. He titles his recent Yahoo post "Trajedy that all it takes is one mediocre white man to divert all Hindus into confusion." As a young Hindu, I find this very insulting and demeaning to the Hindu community. If some Hindus are concerned about the plagiarism charges, this is commendable and he should not be so mean.

[–]UCdivinity 6ポイント7ポイント  (19子コメント)

As a white Hindu I don't even know what to say

[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

UCdivinity, it is terrible for him to equate religion with race. You embody the fact that the Hindu tradition speaks to all human beings.

[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -4ポイント-3ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's terrible for him to equate race with relgion, okay.

But can you say with perfect impunity that the white Hindus have always had best of Dharma's interest in their mind while lecturing stuff? Why is it that even a rookie White Hindu with little or no knowledge of embodied 'gyana' becomes the sole spokesperson of 'Dharma'? Hinduism as a religion doesn't hinge on a few verses scattered here and there in books. You have to live the live of a Yogi to understand what Hinduism stands for...

[–]Jahaji 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Who do you have in mind?

[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sorry, I don't want to start 'name that person' game.. RM has done that countless times.

[–]Jahaji 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ok. I respect that. I just think that the racial categories do not belong here in this discussion since the issue is plagiarism.

[–]asubmani -4ポイント-3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Where has he equated Race with religion? He is simply pointing out to the inferiority complex of Indians vis a vis white people!

[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was just carrying on with his assumption..

[–]asubmani 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rajiv has never equated race with religion in any of his works nor in his discussion forums. In fact at the risk of 2ndguessing Rajiv, his response to your post would definitely not call for denying "white people " the right to study dharma nor to BAN their works. His call has been consistently to Indian's to first study their own stuff, + be aware and identify the landscape (Kurukshetra) before going ballistic with a bow and arrow against a foe with Nukes! The issue will cease to exist if Indian scholars understand how western academia works. The issue is not with whites trying to understand what they deem is useful from Hindu texts.

[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't think he's against white Hindus, but bouts of irrationality take hold all of us at times. We should learn to see them as something to overcome. We all have our good, and bad sides. Considering Rajiv's work, and rationality I wouldn't hold this against him. Doubly so considering the fact that for so long he's been using his own resources, and his own time to fight for a cause he deeply believes in. Not to mention the fact that racism still exists in top institutions of America, something no doubt he faces. But unfortunately he took a low hanging fruit, instead of talking the higher path, and setting an example.

I know because I've felt the same after realising how badly Hinduism has been disgraced, and the outright neglected. Not to mention the West's continuing ethnocentrism, that refuses to give credit where it's due. No doubt, of course, to centuries of racism, bigotry, and more generally greed for power regardless of the means. Many times on both sides.

It turns anyone cynical, especially knowing that institutionalised racism in America hasn't ended. History, and politics are in many ways poisons to the mind, because you face harsh, brutal realities.

Oh well. Arrogance has a lesson that RM hasn't learned.

[–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I appreciate your observations about the need to contest racism wherever it exists and not the least in scholarship. But if one wants to challenge scholarship, one must do it fairly and maintain high standards. The repeated absence of quotation marks, in all the examples provided by Young, points to something deeper that shoddiness.

[–]asubmani 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your points on race relations are juxtaposed with someone's assumption that Rajiv lost his cool and rants against racism (which never happened). Rajiv does not remotely seem to imply that "white ppl" should be prevented from voicing their views on Indian texts (including what we consider sacred); his words are to Indian's/people of Indian origin who DO HAVE an inferiority complex when it comes to whites (this is evident even in denial). If this kind of reasoning were applied to say "Hitler was a vegetarian." You would end with a conclusion "All vegetarian are Nazis"

[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with you. Especially on the inferiority complex, and the inherent ego centric Western world. Having authority, or some sort of advantage just because of one's race is an unfortunate reality of the world that I know Rajiv has a very clear cut view on. One that I find myself agreeing with.

But when someone raises a valid point, and people agree with that person, I don't think it's solely because of race. The accusation of plagiarism is common in academia, because it provides for a very easy, and quick way to discredit someone's work. Rather going throw each, and every point, you simply attack their format. Which is completely valid, and in fact helpful, because then it provides for researches, and student to easily find the origin of the thought.

[–]urulagneb -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why are you being racist calling yourself white Hindu?

[–]vodoomamajuju 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How is that being racist?

[–]BharatDharma -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's not a comment about whites, it is a comment about complexes of some Indians.

[–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

BharatDharma, it is also a comment about whites. Also, please understand that it is not just a matter of citing an author somewhere in your text and then have unattributed sentences copied. The proper practice is to cite and use quote marks. It will save a lot of discussion if you would just understand this. Every good undergrad understands this! Please do not embarass us as people of Indian-origin with lower standards.

[–]urulagneb -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Indian sepoy employed by colonial rulers? Btw, India became free way back in 1947.

[–]BharatDharma -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Read the sentence again, you are misreading if you think that comment is about whites.

[–]TreeOfWealth 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was the white britisher (starting with macaulay) that sowed the seed and harvested the fruit of rampant self-loathing of the Hindu, erosion of respect for all things Hindu and the false belief that everything white is superior. I am thinking that's where he was coming from. It is another matter that some enlightened white people (westerners) , albeit few and far between, such as Mark Twain extolled the superiority of the Hindu religion. It is generally true that Hindus don't unite for the cause of Hinduism but are seen to come together with great alacrity when it comes to condemning anything that is Hindu. This is a remnant of Macaulay's legacy. That said, your point is well-taken. I am only trying to remember a bit of history regarding people's biases in general.

[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Respected Friends, Surveying the discussion so far, I think this will come down to the publisher's standards (HarperCollins). Those who write here to support Mr. Malhotra are unfortunately lowering standards of acceptable scholarship to justify his plagiarism. I do not think that Mr. Malhotra will like this kind of support! With regret, there is a cult-like veneration where the leader can do no wrong!-or there is a higher purpose that justifies wrong-doing.

I hope we hear from HarperCollins (Indra's Net Publisher) soon. Let me say, however, that I do appreciate the respectful character of the discussion here. Thank you americanvedic for initiating this important discussion and for its quality.

[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Does Rajiv Malhotra have a problem with quotation marks when using the words of other scholars? How many examples do we excuse and rationalize? Let us all support good scholarly practice.

[–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

भारत धर्म ‏@BharatDharma 2m2 minutes ago @RichardFoxYoung Source ws acknowledged. Up to author & publisher 2 decide if repeated " " wd interrupt flow in a book meant for public.

How far will we go in absurdity!! Now the use of quotation marks interrupts flow for public reader!! Which public reader? Here in the USA? or India? Do not insult intelligence of reader....it gets worse. Perhaps we need prizes for best rationalization- give gold?

[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

भारत धर्म ‏@BharatDharma 1m1 minute ago @RichardFoxYoung We should b interested in ideas, not formatting issues. Source was acknowledged. Rest is nitpicking 1/2

Getting worse with each moment-proper scholarly acknowledgement is nitpicking!! Only ideas are important, even plagiarized ones!! This cannot be Bharata's dharma can it?

[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think quotation marks are just an imposed colonial Western convention not needed by writers of Indian-origin!!! It is not part of the tradition of Bharat. What do you say Bharat Dharma?

[–]telugujoshi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

All scripts are late inventions the spoken word being the earliest attestation - shruti as in vEda. When were quotations invented?

Please answer without making this into another "Us vs. them" argument.

[–]vodoomamajuju 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is interesting and really disappointing. Malhotra has been vicious to other Hindu scholars and perhaps it is his comeuppance that his lack of academic training and scholarly ethics is coming back to haunt him.

[–]DesiBabaji 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Case in point: aligation of Devdutt Pattanaik plagiarizing Rajiv Malhotra’s Work

Devdutt Pattanaik Indian physician turned leadership consultant, mythologist. He gave speech at Independent Power Producers Association of India in which he was talking about “Why the West sees India as Chaos? Is it really?” The concepts he talked in this speech are strikingly similar to concepts in Rajiv Malhotra’s book ‘Being Different’ specifically in Chapter #4: Order and Chaos. He did NOT give credit to Rajiv anywhere in the entire speech in following video or any reference to Rajiv Malhotra’s book Being Different.

Interesting to see that while they want other people to cite them even in a speech when discussing similar concepts. On the other hand they lift stuff off verbatim without citing as shown here.

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]vodoomamajuju 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Malhotra derives much of his credibility from living in Princeton NJ. The guidelines used by Richard Young are from Princeton University- that's pretty cut and dry. Academic standards are not subjective. If someone does not properly attribute the works of others- that meets the criteria for unethical work.

    EDIT: Malhotras responses on Twitter thus far allude to the idea that his reference list is exhaustive. That's sloppy academic work at best, and unethical at its worst. Proper scholarly writing needs meticulous citations. Ask any English or writing professor, tossing in all of your sources at the end of the paper without correlating them to specific parts of your writing is not acceptable. It's a shotgun defense, one that would not be needed if he had followed academic standards.

    [–]brought_Gaudiya Vaishnava / গৌড়ীয় বৈষ্ণব. Also,Troll Admirer. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That man's well-meaning, but still he manages to do such...(I still remember my disapproval of his comments on Gaudiya Vaisnavism and Kashmir Saivism)...

    [–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Uttara ‏@uttaras 1h1 hour ago "Rajiv Malhotra is being accused of plagiarism by Richard Fox Young and RM is not doing a very good job of defending himself.'

    Said as well as can be said by an academic. Some of his defenders are falling over themselves to justify deceptive scholarly practice. The Hindu tradition does not stand or fall by Malhotra's work.

    [–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Latest example of plagiarism released this evening.

    Direct lifting of words from Nicholson, no citation. Damning evidence.

    https://twitter.com/richardfoxyoung/status/618601118826934272

    imgur.com/ngAw9ub

    [–]TweetsInCommentsBot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    @RichardFoxYoung

    2015-07-08 02:02 UTC

    #Message4Rajiv 45 | .@RajivMessage | Example 5. Note the grey area (= double entendre!): plagiarism as manipulation.

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    [–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    भारत धर्म ‏@BharatDharma 9m9 minutes ago @RichardFoxYoung "Strange mix-up between Vijnanabhikshu & Vivekananda. Acknowledges Nicholson but apparently wrong page number. Needs fixing"

    Can anyone make sense of Bharat Dharma's explanation of the latest example of plagiarism...every explanation gets worst!! These will become rationalization classics for the future!! At least Malhotra should save Bharat Dharma from his silliness!! Clearly the names were changed (Vijnanabhikshu to Vivekananda), because Malhotra liked Nicholson's words but did not want to give proper attribution!! Has nothing to do with page numbers! But some on this list may even do better than Bharat Dharma in verbal contortions. We wait to see!!! Nura? Wesde? give it a try? Malhotra waits on his Kshtriyas.

    [–]BharatDharma -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    So, as per you, "Malhotra liked Nicholson's words but did not want to give proper attribution", which is why he acknowledged Nicholson in the end note, but with wrong page number!

    Now you're making bizarre theories in your eagerness to support Fox's campaign. To me it seems like a strange mix-up.

    [–]28mumbai 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    OP, what do you mean of 'daily instances' ?

    I'd like to see this...

    [–]vodoomamajuju 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    OP said in the opening post that there will be daily instances released on Twitter #message4rajiv

    [–]asubmani 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Question for Jahaji:> I have a doubt; is "Verbatim" considered "Quotation" or is it "Paraphrasing"?

    [–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Verbatim: "in exactly the same words as were used originally." PS changing one or two words in a paragraph/sentence and lifting the others without quotation marks is plagiarism.

    [–]TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

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    [–]petrus4 -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

    In other words, Malhotra has expressed views which are intolerable to the activist Left, and has thus predictably been scheduled for (at least professional) termination. A shame, although not surprising; destroying the careers of people who speak against them, is a fairly standard tactic.

    I suppose I should probably try and buy his books before they are banned, because I haven't read him yet, and I have been meaning to. He probably would not like me though, because I'm not ethnic Indian.

    [–]vodoomamajuju 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Before jumping to political conclusions about this situation maybe just look at the evidence being posted and compare them to academic guidelines. The motivation behind the campaign is certainly up for debate but it's pretty clear that he did NOT follow accepted academic standards.

    [–]spoopyscaryghost 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

    destroying the careers of people who speak against them

    Um, he hasn't destroyed the career of anyone. Scholars don't really care about him - he's done no path breaking work - apart from claiming Western scholars are evil and out to destroy Hinduism.

    [–]petrus4 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    My point was someone trying to destroy Malhotra, not him doing it to anyone else.

    As for Westerners trying to destroy Hinduism, I agree with him. They are. New Atheism does not want any other ideology to continue to exist; at least not unless said other ideology exists on Atheism's own terms.

    [–]spoopyscaryghost 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

    New Atheism doesn't care about Hinduism, they're completely focused on Christianity and Islam. They only care about stuff that has political influence.

    [–]SwadhisthanaShaktaa 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Don't fool yourself. They care more about the Abrahamic faiths, but they have a deep hatred for all people professing any spiritual belief.

    [–]nura2011ocean churner 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    all people professing any spiritual belief

    This is not really true as far as I can tell. Dawkins is extremely vitriolic, Dennett calls for more research on religions in his "Breaking the Spell", and Harris is for I think a more rational formulation for "spirituality" while acknowledging the authenticity of religious peak experiencs. Hitchens is dead, but he was more of the opinion that you can do "whatever floats your boat", just don't force it down everyone's throats.

    [–]spoopyscaryghost 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The primary objective of New Atheism is to remove religion from public life in America. That they have some agenda against Hinduism is unsubstantiated.

    [–]ChintamaniYasovijaya -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

    https://twitter.com/RichardFoxYoung/status/617694505542811652

    So here's the conversation that I think more clearly shows what Fox has accused RM of. RM didn't put quotation marks around a passage, but did cite it. So Plagiarism isn't the wrong word per se, but it is a little harsh, perhaps a lack of proof reading, or perhaps a simple grammatical mistake.

    Sure Fox is right, but it's totally blowing it out of proportion. In this instance it's plain inflation of the matter, and not "widespread plagiarism."

    [–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Chintamani, we all want to be fair here. Malhotra did not cite Olender's book in footnote 21- which is the relevant footnote here. It is not just a matter of missing quotation marks. The passage is from Olender and the source is not acknowledged in the footnote. Do look at it again.

    [–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I miss read it. You're right. RM side steps it by saying that he has cited Olender in the book multiple times, but does not address the fact that footnote 21, which is supposedly a direct quote from Olender's book, is improperly cited.

    [–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thanks Chintamani-just wanted to clarify!!

    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]TweetsInCommentsBot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      @RichardFoxYoung

      2015-07-05 17:30 UTC

      2/2 @RajivMessage Citations in1 place do NOT excuse omissions in another. Hā! WHY WON'T U TALK ABOUT THIS INSTANCE?

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      [–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I understand what you are saying but I think there is a lay definition of plagiarism and an academic standard. Things like not using quotes properly, paraphrasing without attribution, not citing sources properly met the later definition. Sloppiness isn't an excuse, something Malhotra himself has said.

      [–]TweetsInCommentsBot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      @RichardFoxYoung

      2015-07-05 14:00 UTC

      #Message4Rajiv 37 | .@RajivMessage | Example 1. #Plagiarized section highlighted in yellow. | #MauriceOlender .@E_P_W

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      [–]BharatDharma -4ポイント-3ポイント  (25子コメント)

      From Rajiv:

      Homework:

      • Read chapter 3 of BI and also read its end notes where its clear that I draw heavily from Olender, Trautman and a few others. These authors I have referenced in numerous talks and writings since the mid 1990s.
      • Regarding references: In fact, my editors always complain that I give too many references and too frequently in each page, making it hard to read. So pressure is always to give references every few paras and let a serious reader following the whole piece understand my main sources.
      • I counted around 7 or 8 end notes in chapter 3 that specifically cite Olender. So whats the problem?
      • In fact end note 16 says: 'This section on Renan draws heavily on Olender...' The following section heading 'Muller' was a later edit but these few sections are all one and draw from the same sources.

      Anyone with reading-->thinking-->responding skills out there????

      [–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

      What we are seeing here from Prof. Fox Young is more that forgetting to cross t's or dot i's. It is lifting passages/sentences from another writer without proper attribution- simple. Mr. Malhotra should set a good example by taking responsibility. Please do not whitewash that which is manifestly wrong. You do not need to.

      [–]BharatDharma -2ポイント-1ポイント  (9子コメント)

      As Rajiv clarifies, section on 'Muller' was a later edit. Note 16, which relates to the previous section, and which explicitly acknowledges 'drawing heavily from Olender', applied to this section also.

      Furthermore, as the coauthor has clarified on Twitter, far from taking undue credit, they don't even agree with the allegedly "plagiarized" bits.

      Another important point that many people here may be missing is the target audience. This book is intended for the aware public, and is not targeted towards an academic coterie or cabal. The publisher will be concerned about issues of readability. Sources will be cited in a way that does not interrupt the flow or mar readability. In fact, Rajiv's publishers are always complaining that he cites too many references.

      At best, Richard Fox Young has managed to catch some oversights, and is running his motivated campaign on the basis of that nitpicking. IMO, it does not deserve any traction at all.

      [–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      BharatDharma: Are you implying that it is ok in a book meant for a general audience for the author to take the sentences/paragraphs of a scholar and use these without proper citation? Just think about what you are saying. You are doing a great disservice to India and writers of Indian origin. We do not agree this this lowering of standards to fit Mr. Malhotra's sloppiness. Please Sir!!

      [–]BharatDharma -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      New section was added at later stage of editing. Previous section had the citation. Same citation was needed in new section. Perhaps RM slipped up. Maybe that floats the boat of people like Fox and yourself. For me it's nothing to get excited about.

      [–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -4ポイント-3ポイント  (6子コメント)

      This book is intended for the aware public, and is not targeted towards an academic coterie or cabal.

      Exactly, BI or IN aren't academic papers which are supposed to be peer reviewed. They are the general masses. And as far as fairness goes, RM has quoted his sources numerous times as footnotes and citations.

      [–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

      I am sorry to have to say that you miss the point completely. Having a source in a bibliography and not properly referencing quotes used within the text constitutes plagiarism. It is deceptive, Sir.

      [–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

      It is deceptive, Sir.

      Yes it would have been. But the scrutiny which you are fellow Ramabachanians are subjecting RM is unwarranted. Moreover, it's not like that RM hasn't quoted his sources. He did quote them, only that he didn't quote them every-time.

      [–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

      The extent to which some of you resort to ad hominem attacks really reduces the capacity of this thread to move forward and have a productive conversation. Just like Malhotra used the race card last night, you just want to shut down conversation through insults.

      [–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      reduces the capacity of this thread to move forward

      Good. Mission accomplished.

      [–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      It is sad that you are so transparent about your goals to shut down academic discourse

      [–]Jahaji 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I try to understand your messages, but you lost me here or I am not up to date. ...Ramabachanians?? Someone(s) I should know about? Clarify the reference, please?

      [–]vodoomamajuju 3ポイント4ポイント  (12子コメント)

      Here is your answer. You cannot publish a mass of text and then say in the footnotes that you drew heavily from those authors. Every quotation AND every paraphrased text needs a citation EVERY time. There are no shortcuts. If that is truly what Malhotras editors said, that is unfortunate. No matter how many citations there are in a piece, every phrase and idea must be cited as it comes in the writing. There are no shortcuts. One does not get away by saying that they cited a given author elsewhere or that they included that author somewhere in the footnotes.

      [–]kjayak2015 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Are these guidelines from universities like Princeton? or publishing house guidelines? Can i request you to guide me to them - perhaps by posting the link to your above mentioned guidelines/rules here?

      [–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      These are basic guidelines that you will find at the site of any credible university. At my university, I am likely to be expelled or suspended for plagiarism. We speak of it at the beginning of each school year.

      [–]americanvedic[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      You cited it already but it's on this web page http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/intro/index.htm

      [–]kjayak2015 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Yes but i am unable to find where it says what you have said "No matter how many citations there are in a piece, every phrase and idea must be cited as it comes in the writing" I searched on the princeton site with the above phrase as stated by you above.

      [–]BharatDharma -5ポイント-4ポイント  (6子コメント)

      This is exactly like saying that authors of Magna Carta failed to dot some i's and cross some t's. You might be right, but it's hardly worth getting excited about, can be fixed in next printing.

      [–]vodoomamajuju 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

      No it's not the same thing at all. If Malhotra wants to be a scholar, he must act like one. There are going to be more instances of this exposed on Twitter. Malhotra can only hide in his Yahoo group for so longZ

      [–]BharatDharma -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Rajiv writes for the enlightened public, not any academic cabal. And the public is going to realize that this is basically motivated nitpicking. I don't think this campaign will get traction where it matters.

      [–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      BharatDharma, do not lower standards to fit the poor scholarly practice that is becoming evident. If you have a student at University, you want to maintain high standards. If Mr. Malhotra wants to be taken seriously, he has to meet the standards of academic scholarship. He claims to do so. Please avoid seeming to excuse dishonesty.

      [–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Plagiarism is not errata!!

      [–]telugujoshi -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I completely agree. On the other hand authors sometimes make mistakes. That seems to be the case here in that Mr. Malhotra had readily agreed that he quoted from Olender and also have Olender reference for that chapter. Shouldn't errata be fine? May be even an explicit apology for being sloppy.

      [–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Perhaps, but this is more than olender. There have been and will be more examples.

      [–]pramuk -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

      What's a "hindu" writer?

      [–]vodoomamajuju 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I guess a writer who is Hindu and claims to speak for Hindus and writes about Hinduism

      [–]abc_reddit -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      The Princeton guidelines are intended to be a guide. Writing and proof-reading a book are entirely manual processes and cannot but be error-prone. Malhotra has acknowledged his sources so plentifully, that it is hard to establish bad intention on his part. (The analogy is that if a policeman gives you a "fix-it" ticket for a car that has a broken headlight, the "fix-it" ticket does not affect your insurance premiums.) In fact, the academia needs to think about their own image among the public. Is it good to appoint retired missionaries as editors of peer-reviewed journals? Please consider the case of Paul Hacker as a precedent. Hacker published not only on Hinduism, but also several articles with an openly missionary intent. Nevertheless, Hacker's collected works failed to include those articles that hand an openly missionary intent. Thus for some years the impression was created that he was an impartial scholar of Hindu Studies. This fact came to light eventually--see Malhotra's book Indra's Net for details. There is no wrongdoing from the legal angle, but it changes academia's image among the public.

      [–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Well there is one possibility forward: Let Mr. Mahotra tell us which citation standards he is following. Paul Hacker certainly has problems, but nothing to do with the issue at hand. Let us stay focused. As I said earlier, hopefully, we will hear soon from his publisher.

      [–]nura2011ocean churner -5ポイント-4ポイント  (13子コメント)

      I think we have to draw a clear distinction between judging and understanding Rajiv Malhotra's position vs that of his supposedly clumsy failure in dotting all the i's and crossing the t's while articulating that position. The latter is a serious error in an academic context, but in the larger context of arguing for a position before the public, it's a fairly minor technical mistake.

      An equivalent would be: someone, say Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela arguing for civil rights and equality, but committing the error of not properly citing material in their supporting published work. Focusing on the latter in an attempt to discredit them should be called out for what it is: a cheap smear campaign that the supposedly more "sophisticated" academic people shouldn't stoop to.

      [–]vodoomamajuju 4ポイント5ポイント  (12子コメント)

      His failure wasn't in crossing the t's and dotting the i's although that was a part of it. It was in also lifting people's words without citation. That is a transgression in academia and in general public.

      Also please don't use malhotras name in the same light as Nelson Mandela and MLK Jr. I fear for the size of Malhotra's megalomania and ego If such comparisons are made.

      [–]kjayak2015 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Here is the link to the princeton university plagiarism guidelines:http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/plagiarism/

      Every example says and shows - that the activity should be done without clearly acknowledging the source, if it is to be called plagiarism! So it is not clear how is this plagiarism? - if the sources have been acknowledged over and over again in the book. That is - it is being clearly stated that the work takes from those of the authors listed - how does that qualify as plagiarism? Am i missing something ?

      [–]americanvedic[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Because he does not cite his attributions at the exact and appropriate times in his writing

      [–]kjayak2015 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Sure - but can you point me to the place in the princeton guidelines which makes that specific point? Perhaps i have missed it.

      [–]americanvedic[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/cite/

      There are several portions to the guidelines- check the left column on the webpage

      [–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Sorry, you completely misread the Princeton guidelines. There are many students in this discussion group. Where does the Princeton Guidelines give permission for not acknowledging a source? Please, please read again carefully. This is a serious academic matter of scholarship.

      [–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -5ポイント-4ポイント  (1子コメント)

      RM has cited Olander in Chapter 3, list of citations # 7.

      No copying, rather paraphrasing. Moreover, RM has cited the original sources of BG and Vishnu-Purana.

      Are there any more links?