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Confirmed, widespread plagiarism found in Hindu Writer Rajiv Malhotra's work (self.hinduism)
americanvedic が 2日 前 * 投稿
There is a currently a Twitter campaign called #message4rajiv where there are daily instances of plagiarism in two of Malhotra's major works- Breaking India and Indras Net. Plagiarism is being demonstrated based on Princeton Univeristy guidelines https://mobile.twitter.com/search?q=message4rajiv
EDIT: since this thread has become unwieldy, I am linking each example from Twitter below for easy access and for the record.
Introduction: Halfbass
http://imgur.com/nhzobSM
Example 1: Olender
http://i.imgur.com/CC6cFd5.jpg
Example 2: Nicholson
http://i.imgur.com/CH98xC7
Example 3: Nicholson
http://imgur.com/pkugmlP
Example 4: Nicholson
http://imgur.com/jXBD9cc
Example 5: Nicholson
http://imgur.com/LtHk7gO
Example "for fun":
http://imgur.com/TXJeyAV
[–]UCdivinity 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
Lurker here but joined because I have read Malhotras books. I looked at the link and honestly it's hard to follow in the Twitter format. I hope it comes together in a more readable way when all is said and done so I can better digest it as a whole. It's a big claim to make, but the bits and pieces posted so far would certainly meet the standards of plagiarism at my university (I'm not at Princeton).
[–]rajivmalhotra 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 13時間 前* (2子コメント)
I read through the thread this morning and I quickly realized that engagement with each and every poster is redudant and will not further this discussion. That that end, these are some thoughts I wanted to get off my chest. For the sake of simplicity, since Malhotra likes to address his devotees using his yahoo group, from now on I will refer to them as Malhotra's Yahooligans.
What is plagiarism? Most of the Yahooligans are nitpicking the definiton of plagiarism. It is very clear and this point has been made repeatedly throughout the thread that plagiarism is the idea of taking someone else's work as passing it off as one's own. Not attributing citations properly and directly lifting lines meets this universal defintion, plain and simple.
What are our standards for plagiarism? Richard Fox Young made clear in his initial tweets why he was using Princeton standards. Malhotra is from the city of Princeton, NJ and he has actually claimed the city as part of his aura of credibility. Princeton University is a globally renowed academic institution with guidelines as good as any. If one looks up any academic or publishing guidelines, they would find consistency with Princeton's guidelines. The burden of proof does not fall on Young or some others on this thread to show how Malhotra meets the definition of plagiarism by EVERY standard. In fact, the burden falls on Malhotra's Yahooholigans to show by which academic or ethical standards Malhotra's transgressions stand up against.
So what? Malhotra's Yahooligans have fallen back on the argument that this is a very minimal transgression at worst, akin to forgetting to dot the i's and cross the t's. This is incorrect. In the words of Rajeev Malhotra himself, plagiarism is an unethical act which steals from others. If the readers of this are not convinced by the intrinsic ethical problems with plagiarism, I don't think I'll be able to convince them. This plagiarism is not a mistake, it is a consistent transgression across his works.
Why should Malhotra follow the standards of academic "sepoys"? One, these are universal standards that apply to non peer-reviewed journals as well. Newspaper writers, college students, speech writers and those who give public addresses are held to the same standard. Two, Malhotra is a participant in the academic community- he writes books, speaks at conferences and seeks to be a scholarly voice for Hinduism. He CANNOT have his cake and eat it too. If he wants to be accepted as a voice in the academic or even Hindu community, he cannot run away from universal standards.
This isn't Malhotra's fault- blame the publisher This one is simple. An author takes responsibility for what he publishes. He derives the benefit from his works and he is responsible. Moreover, the arguments that "quotes and citations" distract the reader are nonsensical and do not hold any water in any capacity.
A comment on attack tactics It is frightening to see the type of language used by Malhotra. Not only is he attempting to use the race card and trying to belittle his opponents as "sepoys" but the use of militaristic language is most concerning. This morning, Malhotra tweeted, "We use folks like RFY for target practice." The use of violent phrasing is unacceptable, unbecoming of an intellectual and reflects poorly on Malhotra's maturity. Malhotra's Yahooligans fall under the same guise of American tea party members at best and conservative Islamist extremists at worst. They refuse to listen to other opinions, deningrate others and resort to unsubstantiated, ad hominem attacks ie sepoys, the white man, western christians etc. Screenshots from yahoo available elsewhere on this thread demonstrate the strategy of the Yahooligans in plain light. I quote the Yahoo thread, "we need different tactics 'gutter tactics' to deal with them." The stated goal of the Yahooligans is to shut down discussion.
A conclusion Malhotra is showing his true colors. He is hiding in his Yahoo group riling up his Yahooligans in a militaristic manner while sending off random tweets. He is resorting to name-calling, ad hominem attacks and doing everything to distract from the greater issue that he is a plagiarist. I do not blame him for his response. A thief tries to get away when he is caught and this is no different. This has the potential to end Malhotra's career, lead to intellectual property lawsuits, and his relationships with his publishers. If Malhotra were a true academic, he would welcome debate. If he wants to retain anything good in his work, he must take responsilbity and move on, otherwise this will catch up to him and his Yahooligans will not be able to protect him.
This post will likely get downvoted by the Yahooligans who have joined Reddit and that's fine. Downvotes and ad hominem attacks will not change the truth. My reddit karma might be low, but unlike Rajiv Malhotra and his followers, I'm not worried about my real karmic balance.
Tl;dr: Malhotra is showing his true colors, riling up his pseudo-militaristic supporters ie Yahooligans. They are not interested in debate, they just want to ignore everything, name-call and set up ad hominem attacks on others, and shut down discussion. Don't bother to engage them. Some people's minds can't be changed.
[–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 12時間 前 (0子コメント)
Yahooligans! Love it. Ironic that yahooligans also used to be a website for kids, very appropriate for how they act.
[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 3時間 前 (0子コメント)
So are we now stooping to the level of impersonating someone else? Great going sepoys! Bow to your firang masters!
[–]SwadhisthanaShaktaa 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日 前 (15子コメント)
I'm torn on this. I'm pretty firmly on the political left, but I love so much of what Malhotra is trying to say. The monotheistic bias so omnipresent in how Hinduism is presented is awful and pernicious, and it's about damn time we took our own viewpoints and critiqued the rest of the religions of the world rather than roll over and simply allow ourselves to be labelled.
These accusations don't really surprise me that much. He's not trained as an academic (which I am sure pisses a lot of folks off) - he's an ex-engineer, and we scientists takes shortcuts and build off the works of others to get to the end result.
[–]americanvedic[S] 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日 前 (2子コメント)
I would argue that most in the scientific field actually value proper citations. Every peer reviewed scientific journal has strict anti plagiarism guidelines on par with the Princeton University guidelines.
[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日 前* (0子コメント)
Yes. Science is extremely heavy on proper citations, but the rigor, and pitfalls, are definitely different in the Liberal Arts. I would argue that in the Liberal Arts you need an even closer eye. You need to be extra vigilant, because even when you write a sentence that you're totally sure you wrote you can fall prey to Cryptomnesia, and it turns out was a regurgitation of something you've read previously.
So you need to go through each idea, each sentence, each claim, and search proper citations for them.
[–]asubmani -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 16時間 前 (0子コメント)
Which anti plagiarism guideline did Rajiv Malhotra violate? As per Princeton's booklet on "Academic Integrity" http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/academic-integrity-2011b.pdf a 'Paraphrase' need not use quotation marks; but a footnote is an absolute requirement. RM has provided footnotes. Why accuse RM of "Paraphrasing" and focus attention on guidelines for citing "Quotations". There is a reason why Princeton has separate guidelines for "Quotations" and "Paraphrasing" (HINT: The 2 are different!)
[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1日 前* (10子コメント)
Unfortunately it's not that uncommon even for serious academics to have poor, improper, or lack of proper citation. If there's possibility for grammatical errors, there's definitely a possibility for improperly citing sources.
For example, while not being an Academic, but definitely held to the same standards Fareed Zakaria is accused of widespread plagiarism as well.
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/02/michael-kinsley-fareed-zakaria-plagarism
Professor Terrance Deacon from UC Berkeley.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/10/22/berkeley-launches-plagiarism-investigation-light-public-nature-complaints
Jane Goodall
http://mosaicscience.com/story/conversation-with-jane-goodall
She has just been going through proofs of her updated book Seeds of Hope, the first edition of which was troubled by allegations of plagiarism.
There are hundreds more.
I'm by no means excusing RM for his improper citation, nor am I saying that he didn't plagiarize. RM definitely needs to get on that, and fix those citations. All I'm trying to point out is that it is an unfortunately common mistake, whether malicious, or not, in academia. To say that it invalidates, or somehow makes Rajiv unethical is a bit sensationalistic. I don't think think he maliciously plagiarized, but rather had a lack of resources/time/experience. I mean it seems like he's a one man show, and needs a decent academic editor. I hope RM is going to address these issues, and I'm sure that he'll fix them.
If he comes out, and says that'll fix the errors that Fox highlights, and release a new version, I think it would sufficiently address the issue at hand. But I don't think it helps Malhotra's case if he side steps the issues.
[–]vodoomamajuju 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日 前 (6子コメント)
Those are great examples. It's nearly impossible to judge maliciousness. It is ironic however that Malhotra accused others of plagiarizing his work last year on similar grounds. I quote Malhotra himself
https://mobile.twitter.com/rajivmessage/status/530108905989623808
He should hold himself to the same standards.
[–]TweetsInCommentsBot 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
@RajivMessage
2014-11-05 21:26 UTC Plagiarism = stealing the phala (reward) without earning it with karma/tapasya. Only fools say that such tamas is good for Hinduism
2014-11-05 21:26 UTC
Plagiarism = stealing the phala (reward) without earning it with karma/tapasya. Only fools say that such tamas is good for Hinduism
This message was created by a bot
[Contact creator][Source code]
[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日 前* (4子コメント)
That doesn't not invalidate his claims, but he definitely should hold himself to his own words if he's to maintain his integrity.
Maybe RM needs to take a break, because I just feel that he's getting a little heavy handed, and needs to reevaluate his position. You can get lost in a black hole after doing the same thing, and start losing a proper grounding in reality. You can't succumb to sycophants, or become one to one's own self to feed the ego. You need to balance yourself with proper criticism, something I'm sure he's not alien to considering his business pedigree, but nonetheless something needs to consider.
I really respect RM, and I really like reading his books, which has provided me with an undoubtedly invaluable perspective, so I really hope everything works out for him.
[–]Jahaji 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1日 前 (3子コメント)
I am grateful, as a student, for the balanced discussion here, unlike what we are seeing, unfortunately on Twitter, from Mr. Malhotra and his supporters. Ad hominem comments are not helpful. This issue is simple: Is there plagiarism in the examples provided? He seems to be using Princeton University guidelines and the standards are fairly uniform across the US Universities. So far, Mr. Malhotra has not addressed this central issue and his supporters are not helping.
[–]UCdivinity 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日 前 (2子コメント)
I am also very grateful for this civilized discussion. Followers can be scary at times and it seems like the Twitter folks are getting ready to resort to more drastic tactics. I am a member of Malhotras Yahoo group. This is the type of convo going on there! http://imgur.com/xMMw9xq
[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日 前 (1子コメント)
If we're going to be fair, both have bigoted followers. Followers bother me the most, because they seem to be the most blind, and impervious to facts, regardless of the situation. Just because one side is right does not validate the blind follower's dogmatism.
If only people were less dogmatic, and invested a little more energy in inquiry.
[–]vodoomamajuju 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
Well said
[–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
I took a look at Indra's Net Acknowledgements. He has a long list of assistants and researchers. I think we may learn something of the Indian publishing business. Hopefully, HarperCollins has a rigorous review process for its books. After all, publishers do have some responsibility for what goes under their label.
[–]asubmani 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 16時間 前 (1子コメント)
Please see the actual guidelines posted by Princeton before dismissing RM for improper citation. http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/academic-integrity-2011b.pdf RM has followed the guidelines that are an "Absolute Requirement" for paraphrasing. Quotes are optional while paraphrasing vs Footnotes which are an "Absolute requirement". RM paraphrased (as per americanvedic's own admission in his allegation) and provided footnotes (again admitted by americanvedic in his tweets). So why waste energy on "guidelines for quotations" when RM is "Paraphrasing" and HAS MET the guidelines for paraphrasing!
[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 15時間 前 (0子コメント)
But there are instances where direct quotations are not put into quotes. He directly copies, and pastes passages from other sources, and fails to put quotes.
This is a battle that he's going to have to face, and not because Fox is white, but because he actually has a valid criticism this time...
[–]americanvedic[S] 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日 前 (4子コメント)
I have been following Malhotra on Twitter today and I honestly don't get his response. He is claiming that he has responded when all he has done has said that he has stuff in his references. Here is an example https://twitter.com/richardfoxyoung/status/617885374946365440
There is no ambiguity here, this is direct plagiarism. Malhotra and his posse are going to down vote this (as they already have) but I will continue to post these. Note that Malhotra hasn't responded using academic standards.
[–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日 前 (2子コメント)
http://imgur.com/bRUpbI6
Latest evidence
[–]akhilkodali -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1日 前 (1子コメント)
Where did Nicholson get them from?. These sentence constructs in that way are new for people in this tradition. Read the commentaries on Bhagavad Gita(for one) which pre-date Nicholson.
[–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 10時間 前 (0子コメント)
Nicholson cited his sources properly
@RichardFoxYoung
2015-07-06 02:38 UTC @arvindneela @RajivMessage @E_P_W Count 'em up, Aravindan! U're the .@SwarajyaMag Science Guy—62 of #Olender's words! [Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]
2015-07-06 02:38 UTC
@arvindneela @RajivMessage @E_P_W Count 'em up, Aravindan! U're the .@SwarajyaMag Science Guy—62 of #Olender's words!
[Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]
[–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日 前 (21子コメント)
Sad to see Mr. Malhotra adding race to this discussion. He titles his recent Yahoo post "Trajedy that all it takes is one mediocre white man to divert all Hindus into confusion." As a young Hindu, I find this very insulting and demeaning to the Hindu community. If some Hindus are concerned about the plagiarism charges, this is commendable and he should not be so mean.
[–]UCdivinity 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1日 前 (19子コメント)
As a white Hindu I don't even know what to say
[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日 前 (7子コメント)
UCdivinity, it is terrible for him to equate religion with race. You embody the fact that the Hindu tradition speaks to all human beings.
[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日 前 (6子コメント)
It's terrible for him to equate race with relgion, okay.
But can you say with perfect impunity that the white Hindus have always had best of Dharma's interest in their mind while lecturing stuff? Why is it that even a rookie White Hindu with little or no knowledge of embodied 'gyana' becomes the sole spokesperson of 'Dharma'? Hinduism as a religion doesn't hinge on a few verses scattered here and there in books. You have to live the live of a Yogi to understand what Hinduism stands for...
[–]Jahaji 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 19時間 前 (2子コメント)
Who do you have in mind?
[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 18時間 前 (1子コメント)
Sorry, I don't want to start 'name that person' game.. RM has done that countless times.
[–]Jahaji 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 17時間 前 (0子コメント)
Ok. I respect that. I just think that the racial categories do not belong here in this discussion since the issue is plagiarism.
[–]asubmani -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 23時間 前 (2子コメント)
Where has he equated Race with religion? He is simply pointing out to the inferiority complex of Indians vis a vis white people!
[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 22時間 前 (1子コメント)
I was just carrying on with his assumption..
[–]asubmani 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 16時間 前 (0子コメント)
Rajiv has never equated race with religion in any of his works nor in his discussion forums. In fact at the risk of 2ndguessing Rajiv, his response to your post would definitely not call for denying "white people " the right to study dharma nor to BAN their works. His call has been consistently to Indian's to first study their own stuff, + be aware and identify the landscape (Kurukshetra) before going ballistic with a bow and arrow against a foe with Nukes! The issue will cease to exist if Indian scholars understand how western academia works. The issue is not with whites trying to understand what they deem is useful from Hindu texts.
[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日 前 (3子コメント)
I don't think he's against white Hindus, but bouts of irrationality take hold all of us at times. We should learn to see them as something to overcome. We all have our good, and bad sides. Considering Rajiv's work, and rationality I wouldn't hold this against him. Doubly so considering the fact that for so long he's been using his own resources, and his own time to fight for a cause he deeply believes in. Not to mention the fact that racism still exists in top institutions of America, something no doubt he faces. But unfortunately he took a low hanging fruit, instead of talking the higher path, and setting an example.
I know because I've felt the same after realising how badly Hinduism has been disgraced, and the outright neglected. Not to mention the West's continuing ethnocentrism, that refuses to give credit where it's due. No doubt, of course, to centuries of racism, bigotry, and more generally greed for power regardless of the means. Many times on both sides.
It turns anyone cynical, especially knowing that institutionalised racism in America hasn't ended. History, and politics are in many ways poisons to the mind, because you face harsh, brutal realities.
Oh well. Arrogance has a lesson that RM hasn't learned.
[–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 18時間 前 (0子コメント)
I appreciate your observations about the need to contest racism wherever it exists and not the least in scholarship. But if one wants to challenge scholarship, one must do it fairly and maintain high standards. The repeated absence of quotation marks, in all the examples provided by Young, points to something deeper that shoddiness.
[–]asubmani 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 16時間 前 (1子コメント)
Your points on race relations are juxtaposed with someone's assumption that Rajiv lost his cool and rants against racism (which never happened). Rajiv does not remotely seem to imply that "white ppl" should be prevented from voicing their views on Indian texts (including what we consider sacred); his words are to Indian's/people of Indian origin who DO HAVE an inferiority complex when it comes to whites (this is evident even in denial). If this kind of reasoning were applied to say "Hitler was a vegetarian." You would end with a conclusion "All vegetarian are Nazis"
[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 16時間 前 (0子コメント)
I agree with you. Especially on the inferiority complex, and the inherent ego centric Western world. Having authority, or some sort of advantage just because of one's race is an unfortunate reality of the world that I know Rajiv has a very clear cut view on. One that I find myself agreeing with.
But when someone raises a valid point, and people agree with that person, I don't think it's solely because of race. The accusation of plagiarism is common in academia, because it provides for a very easy, and quick way to discredit someone's work. Rather going throw each, and every point, you simply attack their format. Which is completely valid, and in fact helpful, because then it provides for researches, and student to easily find the origin of the thought.
[–]urulagneb -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 21時間 前 (1子コメント)
Why are you being racist calling yourself white Hindu?
[–]vodoomamajuju 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 10時間 前 (0子コメント)
How is that being racist?
[–]BharatDharma -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1日 前 (4子コメント)
It's not a comment about whites, it is a comment about complexes of some Indians.
[–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日 前 (3子コメント)
BharatDharma, it is also a comment about whites. Also, please understand that it is not just a matter of citing an author somewhere in your text and then have unattributed sentences copied. The proper practice is to cite and use quote marks. It will save a lot of discussion if you would just understand this. Every good undergrad understands this! Please do not embarass us as people of Indian-origin with lower standards.
[–]urulagneb -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 21時間 前 (1子コメント)
Indian sepoy employed by colonial rulers? Btw, India became free way back in 1947.
What's a sepoy?
[–]BharatDharma -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
Read the sentence again, you are misreading if you think that comment is about whites.
[–]TreeOfWealth 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 14時間 前 (0子コメント)
It was the white britisher (starting with macaulay) that sowed the seed and harvested the fruit of rampant self-loathing of the Hindu, erosion of respect for all things Hindu and the false belief that everything white is superior. I am thinking that's where he was coming from. It is another matter that some enlightened white people (westerners) , albeit few and far between, such as Mark Twain extolled the superiority of the Hindu religion. It is generally true that Hindus don't unite for the cause of Hinduism but are seen to come together with great alacrity when it comes to condemning anything that is Hindu. This is a remnant of Macaulay's legacy. That said, your point is well-taken. I am only trying to remember a bit of history regarding people's biases in general.
[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 20時間 前 (0子コメント)
Respected Friends, Surveying the discussion so far, I think this will come down to the publisher's standards (HarperCollins). Those who write here to support Mr. Malhotra are unfortunately lowering standards of acceptable scholarship to justify his plagiarism. I do not think that Mr. Malhotra will like this kind of support! With regret, there is a cult-like veneration where the leader can do no wrong!-or there is a higher purpose that justifies wrong-doing.
I hope we hear from HarperCollins (Indra's Net Publisher) soon. Let me say, however, that I do appreciate the respectful character of the discussion here. Thank you americanvedic for initiating this important discussion and for its quality.
[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 18時間 前 (0子コメント)
Does Rajiv Malhotra have a problem with quotation marks when using the words of other scholars? How many examples do we excuse and rationalize? Let us all support good scholarly practice.
[–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 18時間 前 (0子コメント)
भारत धर्म @BharatDharma 2m2 minutes ago @RichardFoxYoung Source ws acknowledged. Up to author & publisher 2 decide if repeated " " wd interrupt flow in a book meant for public.
How far will we go in absurdity!! Now the use of quotation marks interrupts flow for public reader!! Which public reader? Here in the USA? or India? Do not insult intelligence of reader....it gets worse. Perhaps we need prizes for best rationalization- give gold?
[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 17時間 前 (0子コメント)
भारत धर्म @BharatDharma 1m1 minute ago @RichardFoxYoung We should b interested in ideas, not formatting issues. Source was acknowledged. Rest is nitpicking 1/2
Getting worse with each moment-proper scholarly acknowledgement is nitpicking!! Only ideas are important, even plagiarized ones!! This cannot be Bharata's dharma can it?
[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 17時間 前 (1子コメント)
I think quotation marks are just an imposed colonial Western convention not needed by writers of Indian-origin!!! It is not part of the tradition of Bharat. What do you say Bharat Dharma?
[–]telugujoshi 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 10時間 前 (0子コメント)
All scripts are late inventions the spoken word being the earliest attestation - shruti as in vEda. When were quotations invented?
Please answer without making this into another "Us vs. them" argument.
[–]vodoomamajuju 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 2日 前 (3子コメント)
This is interesting and really disappointing. Malhotra has been vicious to other Hindu scholars and perhaps it is his comeuppance that his lack of academic training and scholarly ethics is coming back to haunt him.
[–]DesiBabaji 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
Case in point: aligation of Devdutt Pattanaik plagiarizing Rajiv Malhotra’s Work
Devdutt Pattanaik Indian physician turned leadership consultant, mythologist. He gave speech at Independent Power Producers Association of India in which he was talking about “Why the West sees India as Chaos? Is it really?” The concepts he talked in this speech are strikingly similar to concepts in Rajiv Malhotra’s book ‘Being Different’ specifically in Chapter #4: Order and Chaos. He did NOT give credit to Rajiv anywhere in the entire speech in following video or any reference to Rajiv Malhotra’s book Being Different.
Interesting to see that while they want other people to cite them even in a speech when discussing similar concepts. On the other hand they lift stuff off verbatim without citing as shown here.
[–][削除されました] 2日 前 (1子コメント)
[deleted]
[–]vodoomamajuju 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日 前* (0子コメント)
Malhotra derives much of his credibility from living in Princeton NJ. The guidelines used by Richard Young are from Princeton University- that's pretty cut and dry. Academic standards are not subjective. If someone does not properly attribute the works of others- that meets the criteria for unethical work.
EDIT: Malhotras responses on Twitter thus far allude to the idea that his reference list is exhaustive. That's sloppy academic work at best, and unethical at its worst. Proper scholarly writing needs meticulous citations. Ask any English or writing professor, tossing in all of your sources at the end of the paper without correlating them to specific parts of your writing is not acceptable. It's a shotgun defense, one that would not be needed if he had followed academic standards.
[–]brought_Gaudiya Vaishnava / গৌড়ীয় বৈষ্ণব. Also,Troll Admirer. 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2日 前 (0子コメント)
That man's well-meaning, but still he manages to do such...(I still remember my disapproval of his comments on Gaudiya Vaisnavism and Kashmir Saivism)...
[–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 11時間 前 (0子コメント)
Uttara @uttaras 1h1 hour ago "Rajiv Malhotra is being accused of plagiarism by Richard Fox Young and RM is not doing a very good job of defending himself.'
Said as well as can be said by an academic. Some of his defenders are falling over themselves to justify deceptive scholarly practice. The Hindu tradition does not stand or fall by Malhotra's work.
[–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 7時間 前 (1子コメント)
Latest example of plagiarism released this evening.
Direct lifting of words from Nicholson, no citation. Damning evidence.
https://twitter.com/richardfoxyoung/status/618601118826934272
imgur.com/ngAw9ub
[–]TweetsInCommentsBot 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 7時間 前 (0子コメント)
2015-07-08 02:02 UTC #Message4Rajiv 45 | .@RajivMessage | Example 5. Note the grey area (= double entendre!): plagiarism as manipulation. [Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]
2015-07-08 02:02 UTC
#Message4Rajiv 45 | .@RajivMessage | Example 5. Note the grey area (= double entendre!): plagiarism as manipulation.
[–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 6時間 前 (1子コメント)
भारत धर्म @BharatDharma 9m9 minutes ago @RichardFoxYoung "Strange mix-up between Vijnanabhikshu & Vivekananda. Acknowledges Nicholson but apparently wrong page number. Needs fixing"
Can anyone make sense of Bharat Dharma's explanation of the latest example of plagiarism...every explanation gets worst!! These will become rationalization classics for the future!! At least Malhotra should save Bharat Dharma from his silliness!! Clearly the names were changed (Vijnanabhikshu to Vivekananda), because Malhotra liked Nicholson's words but did not want to give proper attribution!! Has nothing to do with page numbers! But some on this list may even do better than Bharat Dharma in verbal contortions. We wait to see!!! Nura? Wesde? give it a try? Malhotra waits on his Kshtriyas.
[–]BharatDharma -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 6時間 前 (0子コメント)
So, as per you, "Malhotra liked Nicholson's words but did not want to give proper attribution", which is why he acknowledged Nicholson in the end note, but with wrong page number!
Now you're making bizarre theories in your eagerness to support Fox's campaign. To me it seems like a strange mix-up.
[–]28mumbai 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日 前 (1子コメント)
OP, what do you mean of 'daily instances' ?
I'd like to see this...
[–]vodoomamajuju 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 15時間 前 (0子コメント)
OP said in the opening post that there will be daily instances released on Twitter #message4rajiv
[–]asubmani 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日 前 (1子コメント)
Question for Jahaji:> I have a doubt; is "Verbatim" considered "Quotation" or is it "Paraphrasing"?
[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 21時間 前 (0子コメント)
Verbatim: "in exactly the same words as were used originally." PS changing one or two words in a paragraph/sentence and lifting the others without quotation marks is plagiarism.
[–]TotesMessenger 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3分 前 (0子コメント)
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[–]petrus4 -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 2日 前* (7子コメント)
In other words, Malhotra has expressed views which are intolerable to the activist Left, and has thus predictably been scheduled for (at least professional) termination. A shame, although not surprising; destroying the careers of people who speak against them, is a fairly standard tactic.
I suppose I should probably try and buy his books before they are banned, because I haven't read him yet, and I have been meaning to. He probably would not like me though, because I'm not ethnic Indian.
[–]vodoomamajuju 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
Before jumping to political conclusions about this situation maybe just look at the evidence being posted and compare them to academic guidelines. The motivation behind the campaign is certainly up for debate but it's pretty clear that he did NOT follow accepted academic standards.
[–]spoopyscaryghost 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2日 前 (5子コメント)
destroying the careers of people who speak against them
Um, he hasn't destroyed the career of anyone. Scholars don't really care about him - he's done no path breaking work - apart from claiming Western scholars are evil and out to destroy Hinduism.
[–]petrus4 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2日 前 (4子コメント)
My point was someone trying to destroy Malhotra, not him doing it to anyone else.
As for Westerners trying to destroy Hinduism, I agree with him. They are. New Atheism does not want any other ideology to continue to exist; at least not unless said other ideology exists on Atheism's own terms.
[–]spoopyscaryghost 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 2日 前 (3子コメント)
New Atheism doesn't care about Hinduism, they're completely focused on Christianity and Islam. They only care about stuff that has political influence.
[–]SwadhisthanaShaktaa 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 19時間 前 (2子コメント)
Don't fool yourself. They care more about the Abrahamic faiths, but they have a deep hatred for all people professing any spiritual belief.
[–]nura2011ocean churner 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 14時間 前 (0子コメント)
all people professing any spiritual belief
This is not really true as far as I can tell. Dawkins is extremely vitriolic, Dennett calls for more research on religions in his "Breaking the Spell", and Harris is for I think a more rational formulation for "spirituality" while acknowledging the authenticity of religious peak experiencs. Hitchens is dead, but he was more of the opinion that you can do "whatever floats your boat", just don't force it down everyone's throats.
[–]spoopyscaryghost 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間 前 (0子コメント)
The primary objective of New Atheism is to remove religion from public life in America. That they have some agenda against Hinduism is unsubstantiated.
[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1日 前* (7子コメント)
https://twitter.com/RichardFoxYoung/status/617694505542811652
So here's the conversation that I think more clearly shows what Fox has accused RM of. RM didn't put quotation marks around a passage, but did cite it. So Plagiarism isn't the wrong word per se, but it is a little harsh, perhaps a lack of proof reading, or perhaps a simple grammatical mistake.
Sure Fox is right, but it's totally blowing it out of proportion. In this instance it's plain inflation of the matter, and not "widespread plagiarism."
[–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 1日 前 (4子コメント)
Chintamani, we all want to be fair here. Malhotra did not cite Olender's book in footnote 21- which is the relevant footnote here. It is not just a matter of missing quotation marks. The passage is from Olender and the source is not acknowledged in the footnote. Do look at it again.
[–]ChintamaniYasovijaya 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日 前 (1子コメント)
I miss read it. You're right. RM side steps it by saying that he has cited Olender in the book multiple times, but does not address the fact that footnote 21, which is supposedly a direct quote from Olender's book, is improperly cited.
[–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
Thanks Chintamani-just wanted to clarify!!
[–][削除されました] 1日 前 (1子コメント)
2015-07-05 17:30 UTC 2/2 @RajivMessage Citations in1 place do NOT excuse omissions in another. Hā! WHY WON'T U TALK ABOUT THIS INSTANCE? [Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]
2015-07-05 17:30 UTC
2/2 @RajivMessage Citations in1 place do NOT excuse omissions in another. Hā! WHY WON'T U TALK ABOUT THIS INSTANCE?
[–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
I understand what you are saying but I think there is a lay definition of plagiarism and an academic standard. Things like not using quotes properly, paraphrasing without attribution, not citing sources properly met the later definition. Sloppiness isn't an excuse, something Malhotra himself has said.
2015-07-05 14:00 UTC #Message4Rajiv 37 | .@RajivMessage | Example 1. #Plagiarized section highlighted in yellow. | #MauriceOlender .@E_P_W [Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]
2015-07-05 14:00 UTC
#Message4Rajiv 37 | .@RajivMessage | Example 1. #Plagiarized section highlighted in yellow. | #MauriceOlender .@E_P_W
[–]BharatDharma -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日 前 (25子コメント)
From Rajiv:
Homework:
Anyone with reading-->thinking-->responding skills out there????
[–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
[–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日 前 (10子コメント)
What we are seeing here from Prof. Fox Young is more that forgetting to cross t's or dot i's. It is lifting passages/sentences from another writer without proper attribution- simple. Mr. Malhotra should set a good example by taking responsibility. Please do not whitewash that which is manifestly wrong. You do not need to.
[–]BharatDharma -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1日 前* (9子コメント)
As Rajiv clarifies, section on 'Muller' was a later edit. Note 16, which relates to the previous section, and which explicitly acknowledges 'drawing heavily from Olender', applied to this section also.
Furthermore, as the coauthor has clarified on Twitter, far from taking undue credit, they don't even agree with the allegedly "plagiarized" bits.
Another important point that many people here may be missing is the target audience. This book is intended for the aware public, and is not targeted towards an academic coterie or cabal. The publisher will be concerned about issues of readability. Sources will be cited in a way that does not interrupt the flow or mar readability. In fact, Rajiv's publishers are always complaining that he cites too many references.
At best, Richard Fox Young has managed to catch some oversights, and is running his motivated campaign on the basis of that nitpicking. IMO, it does not deserve any traction at all.
[–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 21時間 前 (1子コメント)
BharatDharma: Are you implying that it is ok in a book meant for a general audience for the author to take the sentences/paragraphs of a scholar and use these without proper citation? Just think about what you are saying. You are doing a great disservice to India and writers of Indian origin. We do not agree this this lowering of standards to fit Mr. Malhotra's sloppiness. Please Sir!!
[–]BharatDharma -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 20時間 前* (0子コメント)
New section was added at later stage of editing. Previous section had the citation. Same citation was needed in new section. Perhaps RM slipped up. Maybe that floats the boat of people like Fox and yourself. For me it's nothing to get excited about.
This book is intended for the aware public, and is not targeted towards an academic coterie or cabal.
Exactly, BI or IN aren't academic papers which are supposed to be peer reviewed. They are the general masses. And as far as fairness goes, RM has quoted his sources numerous times as footnotes and citations.
[–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 21時間 前 (5子コメント)
I am sorry to have to say that you miss the point completely. Having a source in a bibliography and not properly referencing quotes used within the text constitutes plagiarism. It is deceptive, Sir.
[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 21時間 前 (4子コメント)
It is deceptive, Sir.
Yes it would have been. But the scrutiny which you are fellow Ramabachanians are subjecting RM is unwarranted. Moreover, it's not like that RM hasn't quoted his sources. He did quote them, only that he didn't quote them every-time.
[–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 20時間 前 (2子コメント)
The extent to which some of you resort to ad hominem attacks really reduces the capacity of this thread to move forward and have a productive conversation. Just like Malhotra used the race card last night, you just want to shut down conversation through insults.
[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 20時間 前 (1子コメント)
reduces the capacity of this thread to move forward
Good. Mission accomplished.
[–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 16時間 前 (0子コメント)
It is sad that you are so transparent about your goals to shut down academic discourse
[–]Jahaji 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 13時間 前 (0子コメント)
I try to understand your messages, but you lost me here or I am not up to date. ...Ramabachanians?? Someone(s) I should know about? Clarify the reference, please?
[–]vodoomamajuju 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日 前 (12子コメント)
Here is your answer. You cannot publish a mass of text and then say in the footnotes that you drew heavily from those authors. Every quotation AND every paraphrased text needs a citation EVERY time. There are no shortcuts. If that is truly what Malhotras editors said, that is unfortunate. No matter how many citations there are in a piece, every phrase and idea must be cited as it comes in the writing. There are no shortcuts. One does not get away by saying that they cited a given author elsewhere or that they included that author somewhere in the footnotes.
[–]kjayak2015 -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1日 前 (4子コメント)
Are these guidelines from universities like Princeton? or publishing house guidelines? Can i request you to guide me to them - perhaps by posting the link to your above mentioned guidelines/rules here?
[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
These are basic guidelines that you will find at the site of any credible university. At my university, I am likely to be expelled or suspended for plagiarism. We speak of it at the beginning of each school year.
[–]americanvedic[S] 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日 前 (2子コメント)
You cited it already but it's on this web page http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/intro/index.htm
[–]kjayak2015 -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1日 前 (1子コメント)
Yes but i am unable to find where it says what you have said "No matter how many citations there are in a piece, every phrase and idea must be cited as it comes in the writing" I searched on the princeton site with the above phrase as stated by you above.
[–]spoopyscaryghost 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/cite/
[–]BharatDharma -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 1日 前 (6子コメント)
This is exactly like saying that authors of Magna Carta failed to dot some i's and cross some t's. You might be right, but it's hardly worth getting excited about, can be fixed in next printing.
[–]vodoomamajuju 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 1日 前 (2子コメント)
No it's not the same thing at all. If Malhotra wants to be a scholar, he must act like one. There are going to be more instances of this exposed on Twitter. Malhotra can only hide in his Yahoo group for so longZ
[–]BharatDharma -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日 前 (1子コメント)
Rajiv writes for the enlightened public, not any academic cabal. And the public is going to realize that this is basically motivated nitpicking. I don't think this campaign will get traction where it matters.
BharatDharma, do not lower standards to fit the poor scholarly practice that is becoming evident. If you have a student at University, you want to maintain high standards. If Mr. Malhotra wants to be taken seriously, he has to meet the standards of academic scholarship. He claims to do so. Please avoid seeming to excuse dishonesty.
[–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日 前 (2子コメント)
Plagiarism is not errata!!
[–]telugujoshi -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 12時間 前 (1子コメント)
I completely agree. On the other hand authors sometimes make mistakes. That seems to be the case here in that Mr. Malhotra had readily agreed that he quoted from Olender and also have Olender reference for that chapter. Shouldn't errata be fine? May be even an explicit apology for being sloppy.
Perhaps, but this is more than olender. There have been and will be more examples.
[–]pramuk -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 11時間 前 (1子コメント)
What's a "hindu" writer?
[–]vodoomamajuju 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 11時間 前 (0子コメント)
I guess a writer who is Hindu and claims to speak for Hindus and writes about Hinduism
[–]abc_reddit -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 19時間 前 (1子コメント)
The Princeton guidelines are intended to be a guide. Writing and proof-reading a book are entirely manual processes and cannot but be error-prone. Malhotra has acknowledged his sources so plentifully, that it is hard to establish bad intention on his part. (The analogy is that if a policeman gives you a "fix-it" ticket for a car that has a broken headlight, the "fix-it" ticket does not affect your insurance premiums.) In fact, the academia needs to think about their own image among the public. Is it good to appoint retired missionaries as editors of peer-reviewed journals? Please consider the case of Paul Hacker as a precedent. Hacker published not only on Hinduism, but also several articles with an openly missionary intent. Nevertheless, Hacker's collected works failed to include those articles that hand an openly missionary intent. Thus for some years the impression was created that he was an impartial scholar of Hindu Studies. This fact came to light eventually--see Malhotra's book Indra's Net for details. There is no wrongdoing from the legal angle, but it changes academia's image among the public.
[–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 19時間 前 (0子コメント)
Well there is one possibility forward: Let Mr. Mahotra tell us which citation standards he is following. Paul Hacker certainly has problems, but nothing to do with the issue at hand. Let us stay focused. As I said earlier, hopefully, we will hear soon from his publisher.
[+]mvineetmenonAdvaita スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1日 前 (6子コメント)
Pardon me for my ignorance.. But why are we subjecting RM to standards set by Princeton or any university for that matter? He wasn't a student there, AFAIK nor a lecturer. Indra's net and BI are both books, which have no bearing with any academic institute.
[–]Jahaji 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 22時間 前 (5子コメント)
Very sad indeed to see how you are lowering standards. He claims that his books meet the most rigorous academic standards. You seem to suggest that unless one is a University student or a professor, plagiarism is ok!! You are doing him no service.
[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 21時間 前 (4子コメント)
You are doing him no service.
Neither do I want to.. But citing specifically Princeton's guidelines makes me wonder! Why was Fox not citing JNU's guidelines or for that matter Cambridge's?
You seem to suggest that unless one is a University student or a professor, plagiarism is ok!!
I'm not saying that either. What I want to say is that academic rigor is quite a different baby from a generalize approach. You don't clutter your book with academic citations and footnotes if they are meant for general population and not research with extensive peer-review.
[–]Jahaji 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 18時間 前 (3子コメント)
...and do you allow writers to lift texts from other without quotation marks or proper citation? He is not writing a novel and even here plagiarism is problematic.
[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 18時間 前 (2子コメント)
If you have comprehension issue, please go back to school.
I have categorically mentioned that RM has cited all his sources, but not everywhere, because of his publishers' insistence to prevent overcrowding.
[–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 15時間 前 (0子コメント)
Since you seem to know of his publishers' instructions, let us see where he is told that its ok to use someone's text without quotation marks. We are waiting.
[–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 14時間 前 (0子コメント)
So far this is a civil engagement- no need to add insults; it does not add anything to your argument. Leave that to Malhotra on Twitter.
[–]nura2011ocean churner -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 13時間 前 (13子コメント)
I think we have to draw a clear distinction between judging and understanding Rajiv Malhotra's position vs that of his supposedly clumsy failure in dotting all the i's and crossing the t's while articulating that position. The latter is a serious error in an academic context, but in the larger context of arguing for a position before the public, it's a fairly minor technical mistake.
An equivalent would be: someone, say Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela arguing for civil rights and equality, but committing the error of not properly citing material in their supporting published work. Focusing on the latter in an attempt to discredit them should be called out for what it is: a cheap smear campaign that the supposedly more "sophisticated" academic people shouldn't stoop to.
[–]vodoomamajuju 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 13時間 前 (12子コメント)
His failure wasn't in crossing the t's and dotting the i's although that was a part of it. It was in also lifting people's words without citation. That is a transgression in academia and in general public.
Also please don't use malhotras name in the same light as Nelson Mandela and MLK Jr. I fear for the size of Malhotra's megalomania and ego If such comparisons are made.
[+]nura2011ocean churner スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 13時間 前 (11子コメント)
Also please don't use malhotras name in the same light as Nelson Mandela and MLK Jr.
What would you think of a white supremacist who might have accused MLK Jr. or Nelson Mandela (who were also villains to millions of humans in their times) for improper citations, and by extension, attempting to discredit their message? What are you going to do next? Go after Malhotra for spelling and grammatical mistakes?
If the parallel bothers you so much - and it shouldn't! - replace Malhotra with Hitler and his work with Mein Kampf. Would you go after Hitler and Mein Kampf for citation errors? That would be idiocy of the first order!
Malhotra is an Engineer and an Entrepreneur and not an academic. He has an important message that he and many others feel strongly about. Be charitable: address the message, don't attack the person over silly technicalities. By all means, call attention to his lapse in citing sources, but to raise it to the level of a character assassination is cheap, vile and sly.
[–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 12時間 前 (9子コメント)
People who are unethical and steal the work of others via plagiarism and then use racial attacks and violent language to enlist support do not deserve the treatment you are asking for. Please do not pretend that Malhotra is a poor engineer trying to spread a message of peace. He is the original vitriol and it has and will continue to come back to bite him. It is unbelievable the extent to which his followers will go to twist his message and defend him.
[–]nura2011ocean churner -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 12時間 前* (8子コメント)
enlist support do not deserve the treatment you are asking for
Umm, yes, they kinda do.
Bhagat Singh may have been your villain, but he's my hero. Churchill may have been your hero, but he's my villain. Gandhi may have been your villain, but he's my hero. Hitler may have been your hero, but he's my villain.
The entire point about moral judgements is that to a large extent, they're relative. Hence the dictum of separating the argument from the character of the person, and using the principle of charity.
Your calling him plagiarizer, racist and vitriolic is as good as his calling you a Hindu-hater, racist, and imperialist (or imperial boot-licker). Both are equally valid judgements in their respective constituencies.
But that's what this whole debate is: an ornate form of name-calling with little substance. As I said, a cheap smear campaign.
[–]Jahaji 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 11時間 前 (0子コメント)
There is no smear campaign here- it an inquiry into plagiarism. My thought is that this is the tip of the iceberg. A writer so inclined is likely to repeat this practice. I hope other scholars will now look carefully at his books. If there is one uncooked rice grain, the rest of it may not be cooked! Detecting plagiarism takes a lot of work and vigilance in the academic world is the only recourse. Prof. Fox Young has alerted us to what may be a pervasive tendency. No one scrutinized him carefully before.
[–]vodoomamajuju 3ポイント4ポイント5ポイント 12時間 前 (6子コメント)
I do not subscribe to your theory of moral relativity. There are universal ethics. To believe that anyone can be a hero ethically is such a slippery slop. I refer you to any introductory philosophy book or better yet how about the vedas or the Gita?
[–]nura2011ocean churner -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 12時間 前 (5子コメント)
I do not subscribe to your theory of moral relativity
You clearly have missed what I said. I will repeat it below:
The entire point about moral judgements is that to a large extent, they're relative.
I was talking of moral judgements, which are clearly relative. This fact is empirically validated through the examples I cited.
You make moral judgements on Malhotra. His followers make moral judgements on you. Both judgements are held as valid in their respective constituencies. You'll clearly claim they're evil, but they'll claim likewise.
[–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 12時間 前 (4子コメント)
I understand. That perspective will devolve into a nihilism where no absolute judgements can be made. You are correct that I feel this way and they feel that way. I still believe there is a right and a wrong and that they are wrong on an absolute level by universal ethical standards. If we accept the relativity of moral judgement, society will fall apart.
[–]nura2011ocean churner -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 12時間 前 (2子コメント)
That perspective will devolve into a nihilism where no absolute judgements can be made.
I think that absolute moral judgements can be made, but you have to make your argument based on substantial points, not failures of technicalities such as citations, spelling or grammatical errors.
You're basically doing the equivalent of arguing against Hitler or Mandela based on their failure to adhere to academic technicalities. This may be a decent tactic to put them on the defensive, but in the larger scheme, it only detracts us from reaching that state of absolute moral certainty through substantial arguments. We will be merely indulging in name-calling.
[–]vodoomamajuju -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 12時間 前 (1子コメント)
I do not consider citations a technicality! It is plagiarism and a major offense.
[–]telugujoshi -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 11時間 前 (0子コメント)
There is a right and a wrong but cannot be distinguished by two sides who have exactly the opposite views. These two camps live orthogonally complimentary spaces. A direct sum is not nihilistic nor it spans the entire philosophical space that can be conceived by (a) human mind. There are good and generous daityA to balance out evil AdityA.
[–]Jahaji 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 11時間 前 (0子コメント)
...silly technicalities...you call it!! Malhotra shouts at the top of his voice at a whiff of plagiarism; accuses others left, right and center...see all the quotes from Prof. Fox Young. He should be held to his own standards-or else its is called hypocrisy: see his treatment of Sanyal, Devdutt, and Prof. Long!! Do a google search!! He is one of the most virulent of character assassins.
[–]kjayak2015 -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1日 前* (4子コメント)
Here is the link to the princeton university plagiarism guidelines:http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pub/integrity/pages/plagiarism/
Every example says and shows - that the activity should be done without clearly acknowledging the source, if it is to be called plagiarism! So it is not clear how is this plagiarism? - if the sources have been acknowledged over and over again in the book. That is - it is being clearly stated that the work takes from those of the authors listed - how does that qualify as plagiarism? Am i missing something ?
Because he does not cite his attributions at the exact and appropriate times in his writing
Sure - but can you point me to the place in the princeton guidelines which makes that specific point? Perhaps i have missed it.
[–]americanvedic[S] 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日 前 (0子コメント)
There are several portions to the guidelines- check the left column on the webpage
Sorry, you completely misread the Princeton guidelines. There are many students in this discussion group. Where does the Princeton Guidelines give permission for not acknowledging a source? Please, please read again carefully. This is a serious academic matter of scholarship.
[+]wesde スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 15時間 前 (12子コメント)
EDIT: PS: Checked the Princeton Theological Seminary background of Mr. Fox Young. Reference: http://www.brill.com/asia-making-christianity http://www.ptsem.edu/index.aspx?id=1960&menu_id=72
And now I realize what was going on!! This is not an purely an academically motivated attack. This is an ad hominem attack to disparage Malhotra and discredit his work. Someone is getting very insecure and afraid of Malhotra.. :) This attack makes perfect sense now. Now I can safely ignore Fox and his coherts!! Keep moving guys, nothing to see here!!…;)
****Original post*** Wow!! Seriously? Did anyone else fact-check @americanvedic ’s criticism? Took me exactly 15 minutes go through the References and Bibliography of both his books(Breaking India and Indra’s Net), and I was struck by how disingenuous the OC really was. Malhotra DOES cite Olender and Nicholson. There were numerous references to Olender at the back of his book. And that’s not for the book only, references are broken by Chapter and specifically to that to that section. This thread seems like an attempt to be slanderous rather than critical. IF Malhotra were hiding his sources, citing verbatim or even paraphrasing, it did warrent taking him on, but this does not come across AFTER READING the section. This is not like Fareed Zakaria’s case. Zakaria never cited the source and claimed that he some phrasing stuck in his mind when he produced his writing. Malhotra does mention the respective sources for that particular section in the chapter. I was willing to rap his knuckles for poor formating(not italicize, no-quotations), but when I reread the entire section, he openly admits to borrowing that section(Ranan) from Olender this thread does not mean anything to me.
TLDR; It is duplicitous on part of the OC to blame Malhotra when he is clearly citing the original authors in his references and quite clearly not hiding the source. Looks like a Ad hominem attack at best.
[–]Jahaji 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 14時間 前 (11子コメント)
Unfortunately it will not go away as fast as you wish...the publishers will soon chime in and you are in for a surprise. Will you then disagree with HarperCollins? - his publisher? You still miss the point, unfortunately. It is deceptive to have an author in one's bibliography and notes but use the author's words without acknowledgment. It is especially so when one is not paraphrasing. It is sneaky. Malhotra's plagiarism will become classic examples to instruct about this art in the future!!
[–]wesde -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 13時間 前 (10子コメント)
What Harper Collins does next is seriously difficult to gauge. The surprise could flow either way!! But to argue your "deception" line a bit more- Let's try to prove that he wanted to decieve. Let's assume Malhotra is smart for now. I think his body of work(written and speeches) kinda hints strongly towards this. Let's also assume that he is smart and motivated enough to steal from others and pass it off as his own. Would it have been smarter to suppress the entire reference to Olender and call it his own rather than mention Olender 4 times for that Chapter references? If he knew about plagiarism checkers software back then, he could easily have worded the text differently. If he didnot know of the software, then he should not have mentioned Olender in that chapter AT ALL. Which is why this makes it an even weaker attack. He is very explicitly calling it out in reference for the very section he is being questioned on. I saw atleast 4 references to Olender in that Chapter. It seems to be rather tall claim to say that he meant to deceive. To my original point, I am willing to call him out for poor formatting. But he is attributing this section to the Original Thinker fairly. I don't think we can call this out as deception. I expect that he will fix it in the next edition of the book. An errata at best!
[–]vodoomamajuju 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 13時間 前 (4子コメント)
There are more than the Olender example, which still meets the standard of plagriasm. Keep a close look at #message4rajiv.
[–]wesde 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 11時間 前 (3子コメント)
I’ll wait and review them all. If I see a plagiarized text from him, where he has not attributed to the original thinker AT ALL, that will make be very unhappy and disappointed. But honestly, so far all that I have seen seems pretty pedantic. It just comes across as a desperate attempt from a group to discredit his work.
His original thesis remains very original, well-researched, articulate and credible. I am still waiting for a serious academic critique of his work. Sadly, So far it’s all about punctuation marks!!!
In my eyes it just makes his case stronger.
[–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 11時間 前 (0子コメント)
There is a serious academic critique of his work. The publication of this made his "yahooligans" go crazy, but here it is
http://swarajyamag.com/culture/untangling-the-false-knots-in-rajiv-malhotras-indras-net/
He has yet to respond to this case against his work
[–]Jahaji 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 8時間 前 (1子コメント)
Start with this critique :http://swarajyamag.com/culture/untangling-the-false-knots-in-rajiv-malhotras-indras-net/ There are also very good critical studies on Being Different; one by Prof. Gerald Larson. I will get you the link. These are serious academic critiques.
[–]spoopyscaryghost 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1時間 前 (0子コメント)
Here is Larson's article.
[–]Jahaji -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 11時間 前 (0子コメント)
How about all the other examples given by Prof. Fox Young? and more to come. Do you have any thoughts on these?
[–]telugujoshi -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 13時間 前* (3子コメント)
That nails it. The worst crime one can accuse Mr. Malhotra of committing is sloppiness in a scholarly work. Errata for each edition along with corrections in later editions would be welcome, especially those of us who want to use his works as as references.
[–]vodoomamajuju 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 12時間 前 (1子コメント)
Any plagiarism can say it was a mistake and sloppy. It's the difference between manslaughter and murder. Malhotra is hiding away so honestly we only have evidence that is in front of us. He plagiarized, end of story.
[–]telugujoshi -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 12時間 前 (0子コメント)
The question I will ask myself if and when I refer to his works would be whether his arguments too are invalid just because Prof. Young accused him of plagiarism. At least at this point my answer would be no.
[–]Jahaji 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 11時間 前* (0子コメント)
There is a big difference between errata and plagiarism!! See the subtleties of his deceptive use of Prof. Nicholson's work. Incidentally, Prof. Nicholson is a student of Prof. Pollock- yes the one despised by Mr. Malhotra. Let us put it this way-who is a good western academic? One from whom I (Malhotra) can plagiarize? Who is a good student of Pollock? Once whose work I (Malhotra) can plagiarize!! You have gone further than he has- he does not even admit sloppiness!!!
[–]mvineetmenonAdvaita -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 17時間 前 (1子コメント)
RM has cited Olander in Chapter 3, list of citations # 7.
No copying, rather paraphrasing. Moreover, RM has cited the original sources of BG and Vishnu-Purana.
Are there any more links?
Still plagiarism bro
[+]DharmoRakshati スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 19時間 前 (6子コメント)
I have followed this thread since yesterday. I could distinctly see 3 strategies employed to serve AN agenda. (1)Good Cop (2)Victim (3)Scholar.
How come failing to conform to the intricacies of one university(among thousands) is tantamount to plagiarism.I wonder if Princeton University guidelines are THE universal guidelines for book writers and publishers. It is clearly not the case. Imagine aN author trying to conform to nuances of all universities on this Earth.
I feel RM has very well adhered to the spirit of Copyright & IP by acknowledging the sources. Now, whether you have to acknowledge inline or in parentheses or at footnotes etc.. is a nuance of ONE university, of which one might not even be aware of. So, accusing RM of plagiarism is definitely 'GOING OVERBOARD' if not 'MALICIOUS'
[–]Jahaji 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 19時間 前* (5子コメント)
Send us a link where a credible university approves the lifting of work from a published source without citation or quotation marks? This is the problem here. I do not think that Princeton's guidelines are the only ones, but these are fairly standard. If you contest these, let us have an alternative about how a writer should treat direct quotes.
[–]DharmoRakshati -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 18時間 前 (4子コメント)
How can you say that he has directly lifted from the source when he has acknowledged the sources. I expected a civilized discussion. And why have alternative discussion on 'Citation' nuances when that itself is the crux of the current argument ??!!
[–]Jahaji 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 17時間 前 (3子コメント)
I think I have to give up. I tried. If direct quotes are used, these must be in quotation marks and source cited. Mr. Malhotra has not done this as in evident in all the examples and those yet to come according to Prof. Fox Young. I am done, having failed to explain this...as we young people say..."whatever.."
[–]vodoomamajuju -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 15時間 前 (2子コメント)
You don't have to give up Jahaji. You did your job really well. No matter what, we will never convince those who are brainwashed and incapable/unwilling to listen to dissenting opinions. These are essentially extremists. You have put your opinions on the record and have consistently been up voted which means that your hard work and careful discussion have been well received by others and the students reading this discussion.
Thanks for the encouragement; its just that felt so frustrated this morning trying to explain a simple point. We need to take responsibility when we commit errors and cease from denigrating those who help us to become better.
[–]DharmoRakshati 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 47分 前 (0子コメント)
It is a very old 'seopy' tactic to label and dismiss. Funnily enough, Indian freedom fighters were also called 'Extremists'.
π Rendered by PID 17729 on app-244 at 2015-07-08 09:29:54.247845+00:00 running 92924a1 country code: JP.
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