全 29 件のコメント

[–]LuisN 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think either group leaves, they're invested in the site, and it's hard to build big communities on the internet.

Especially the former group you mentioned, they seem to want their ideas to propagate amongst the general populace, as if they're fighting a war and need to win. I've also found that most of them excluding the extremists browse general, normal subs, so both groups intermingle a lot. I'm sure a happy medium can be found.

[–]adminbeast 12ポイント13ポイント  (28子コメント)

As I see it, here are the parties in play here:

Actual reactionary conservatives: people who don't participate in a forum like /r/fatpeoplehate or /r/coontown in order to feel edgy, but who genuinely wish to associate themselves with the sentiments and feelings expressed in these forums. People who are using these forums "as intended", in good faith, because these are their political beliefs.

These people are being straight-up attacked and are reacting as such.


Reactionary libertarians: people who don't like the idea of rules, broadly-defined, and who especially resent restrictions upon what they'd characterize as freedom of speech -- and who therefore dislike "SJWs" and "uppity feminists" and "tumblrinas", and so on. (So Ellen Pao, as a woman of colour who has sued a past employer for discrimination, is basically Satan to thse people.)

These people see the opportunity to destroy an SJW and take a stand for free speech. (And, IMO, feel sooper sooper special and edgy for sticking it to the man like an Ayn Rand hero, etc.)

Many of these people also think Reddit is on the wrong track (they still haven't "forgiven" site leadership for "censoring", say, creepshots) and are looking for anything they can wedge into a narrative about the demise of the site, administrative overreach, etc.


Channers and other trolls: people who are on the surface indistinguishable from the reactionaries, but who are involved not out of a solemn desire to advance these causes, but because they see an opportunity to cause mischief and human suffering, because it'll be lulzy.


Friends of Victoria: not necessarily personal friends, but people who have worked closely with and come to respect her, and who are saddened by a friend's firing, especially if it makes their jobs more difficult. This group is not exclusively composed of moderators, but includes thousands of people who have seen and appreciated her work in some way or another.


Useful Idiots: users who are not predisposed to support the end-goals of the Reactionary Libertarians or Actual Reactionary Conservatives, but who have gotten drawn into this fight.

It's important to understand that these people are not stupid, nor are they dishonest. ("Useful Idiot" is a Soviet-era term of art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot)

These people wind up involved in the movement for various reasons. I mean, let's be honest, it feels good: "Stand up for Reddit, stand up for Free Speech, stand up for Victoria". (What do the opponents have, "LEEEAVE REDDIT ALOOOOONE"?)

The defining characteristic of this group is that, if you pull them aside and start talking to them about specific decisions and specific forums -- so you support the existance of /r/fatpeople hate? was creepshots okay? -- they often express genuine distaste or disgust.

But.

So long as they can stay zoomed out -- so long as "the Demise of Reddit and the Tyranny of Ellen Pao" is a story which floats in the air, independently of actual events or decisions -- they whole-heartedly support the movement, and don't want to get bogged down on specific considerations. Shut up about /r/thefappening, they've got important work to do!


And the key thing to understand is that, so long as the useful idiots are at a critical mass, they are both self-propagating and capable of operating independently of the reactionaries who benefit from their actions. Tens of thousands of earnest people putting their heart into their words, believing themselves to be part of this enormous social movement for uppercase-Real Change, etc. All this activity legitimizes the cause, attracts more useful idiots, and thereby keeps the movement going. For every person who twigs to the fact that they've accidentally wound up standing up for /r/fatpeoplehate, two more join the party.

Having whipped this movement up, with an inadvertant assist from the Friends of Victoria, the reactionaries now get to lie back and let their work be done for them.

(And the Channers are having a fucking ball, but you already knew that.)


I think this situation is much more complicated than just two pivotal groups. I think we're dealing with a much more fluid, overlapping and inscrutable setup, with all sorts of masks and disguises as well.

[–]EC_CO 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

forgot one group: the 'Don't really care that much' group. unlike all other groups, they don't much give a crap about all the drama as long as the show goes on, which it will. probably a much bigger group than most think

[–]ChunkyLaFunga [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Present.

All I'm really interested in is whether this sort of behavior is ever going to go away. Freedom of speech has no value to me if I'm listening in a playground. Censorship isn't the only way to ruin a community.

Besides, one of the most profound changes I've seen in reddit since the early days has been the rise of hate... stuff. If anything, early reddit was even more naive about democracy and free speech being the solution to everything ever, but I'm also sure people would have made their anti-censorship speech and then downvoted every FPH-er into oblivion.

[–]goshdurnit[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is awesome! I appreciate the time and thought you put into a post like this, seriously. You have a more nuanced take than I do, and a better grasp of the history and larger context in which all this is happening. Also, TIL the term "useful idiot", so thanks for that!

I suppose I'd say that while I agree that there are more than two groups if we define "groups" by their ideologies, motivations, behavior, worldview, etc., I was looking at "groups" defined by their shared goal: get rid of Pao. Though these groups could be heterogeneous in every way BESIDES their shared goal, this may not matter in terms of how they are perceived by others (especially those outside of Reddit), and their ability to affect change.

This certainly isn't the first time there have been "strange bedfellows" with shared goals; the Republican party in the U.S. over the last decade comes to mind.

[–]bioemerl -2ポイント-1ポイント  (19子コメント)

This post is very adamant about describing anti-pao as negative.

You are evil pure evil and supportive of the cause for reasons you are legitamate about, or you are horribly mislead and actually agree with the people who know the real truth about what is wrong and right.

[–]adminbeast 15ポイント16ポイント  (18子コメント)

I refuse to feel guilty about judging /r/fatpeoplehate or /r/coontown as pure evil.

And I specifically cleaved off Friends of Victoria because some people do have serious and legitimate grievances.

[–]bioemerl 7ポイント8ポイント  (16子コメント)

People who dislike the CEO are not necessarily supporters of /r/fatpeoplehate or /r/coontown.

And it is never good to describe any group as "pure evil". You should feel guilt about doing that no matter what group it is.

They are wrong, yes. The subs deserved their bans, yes. But it's not honest or good to try to argue that they are bad just because they are. Doing that just leads to them seeing you and becoming more entrenched and likely to ignore every last word you say.

[–]adminbeast 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

Yeah, still not buying it.

These groups already believe that everyone to the left of Attila the Hun is a reactionary far-left SJW who is not to be taken seriously. I'm not concerned with reaching them, because I don't think such an exercise would be productive or fruitful, nor do I think it's my job to kiss the boo-boos and massage the egos of obvious, self-identifying racists, misogynists and general shitheels.

Take your tone-policing elsewhere.

[–]bioemerl 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

All you do here is re-state that you dislike these groups of people, and say that because you dislike and hold negative views of them, that you have no business attempting to communicate with them.

It is these attitudes that shut down discussion and allow extremism to propagate.

[–]aeschenkarnos 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

No. It is your misguided attempt to engage with the unengageable, to redeem the irredeemable, that allows extremism to populate. Extremists aren't interested in "communicating" with you. That's how you tell that they are extremists.

No matter how many times you set up the chessboard, no matter how patiently you explain the rules, the pigeon will not play chess with you. It hasn't agreed to the frame of the discussion, and it probably can't.

To have a worthwhile online community, you have to get rid of trolls. It's pest control. You don't negotiate a settlement with termites, you don't respectfully consider their point of view, you don't weigh up whether they are "sincere" or "insincere" about their bullshit, whether they are genuine fascist assholes or schoolkids having a laugh, you have to just get rid of them. Just delete their bullshit and move on.

[–]bioemerl 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

to redeem the irredeemable

Perhaps some are too entrenched to feasibly change their views to "acceptable" within the rest of their lifetime.

However, a vast number of people may appear "irredeemable" within a single discussion, or to your opinion, and may well not be. By taking this attitude, you condemn them to their views for much longer, and you condemn those they interact with with those views as well. It is the responsible action, even if it is tiring, annoying, repetitive, and perhaps even impossible.

the pigeon will not play chess with you

I know this is an analogy, but we are not talking about pigeons. These people are capable of holding different views, not animals who inherently cannot change.

To have a worthwhile online community, you have to get rid of trolls.

Trolls, yes, people who are doing nothing but trying to hurt discussion by taking positions they do not hold, yes.

"Trolls" as in people who are trying to express their views, and instead of being told off and corrected, are shut out, shut down, and forced to form their own little enclosed community of like-minded people to discuss their views online? No.

You don't negotiate a settlement with termites

These are people, not pests to be eradicated.

you don't weigh up whether they are "sincere" or "insincere" about their bullshit,

I agree, you assume they are sincere unless some other factor tips you off to make you suspect trolling, or a person's actions are causing some form of direct harm or damage that isn't "I don't like seeing this online".

whether they are genuine fascist assholes or schoolkids having a laugh, you have to just get rid of them.

I fundamentally disagree.

[–]adminbeast 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

All you do here is infantilize me, as if I merely "dislike" /r/coontown and other similar forums and am getting ideas above my silly little head, rather than treating me as an adult who is capable of recognizing a self-identifying (!) hate group when I see one.

This is nothing more than sloppy tone-policing, bypassing the substance of my claims in favour of getting tied up in knots about bruised feelings, about the magic of communication, and about how you agree with idiots like me, but do we have to be so abrasive and mean about it, as if any sort of social progress was ever acheived by sitting quietly at home and thinking Reel Happy Thots about how nice it would be if racism were over, but -- despair! -- to think of how people might be made uncomfortable if I expressed myself! No, far better to sit right here, in this chair, alone, and wait for the racists to come around to my way of thinking. That'll happen aaaaaaany day now.

I'm not having your lectures on the evils of "shutting down discussion", vocalized on behalf of a constituency which overtly wants to shut women up permanently.

I'm not having your lectures on the evils of "allowing extremism to propagate" when we're talking about /r/coontown and /r/fatpeoplehate ferchristsakes.

And I'm not having your tedious, milquetoast whinging about hurting the reactionaries' feelings and, what, refusing to engage with the intellectual force of "them darkies shore do love dem watermellenz"?

[–]bioemerl 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

rather than treating me as an adult who is capable of recognizing a self-identifying (!) hate group when I see one.

I am treating you as an adult who is seeing a hate group and thinking "if I do the same thing they do, but to them, it'll make them go away!"

Which is wrong. No amount of hatred towards a group like /r/fatpeoplehate will make them go away, instead it will strengthen and entrench an idea that was already unpopular in the first place.

bypassing the substance of my claims

There is no substance to your claims. All you do, so far as I can read, is say "these people are bad, and we should dislike them". You have yet to offer support as to why this is a good idea.

and about how you agree with idiots like me, but do we have to be so abrasive and mean about it

It's not about not being abrasive and mean. It's about encouraging communication. You don't fix a group of people by shunning and hating them. Now, if you are in it for the laughs, if you are just trying to put people down, and feel good about being right, by all means, be abrasive, mean, passive aggressive, etc. I do it all the time when talking to people on many subjects.

But these subjects are quite a bit more important. These subjects, when you push the correct buttons, lead to the harming of large groups of people. It is important to change their minds, rather than just being a discussion on differing ideals on what is true or false, or the sorts of people who don't accept peer review evidence on if you can use telepathy. Those subjects are silly, these are not.

as if any sort of social progress was ever acheived by sitting quietly at home

The greatest and best known social progress has come from people who are peaceful but stern. You do not shun or reject those who hold bigoted views, you oppose them while accepting them. Labeling them, attacking them, shunning them, leads to them feeling opposed and at odds with society, and turns a view into a culture, a lifestyle, and so on. The more you push, the harder they will push back.

So you don't push, you subvert. You be there at every last moment to show how people are fucking wrong, and have no basis for where they stand. Do that long enough, and they change their views on their own, rather than learning to be silent about them, or to have a new group to hate.

I'm not having your lectures on the evils of "shutting down discussion"

Then stop reading, and stop responding, unless you are going to thoroughly say I am wrong for reasons other than "I wouldn't dare respect people with that opinion."

And I'm not having your tedious, milquetoast whinging about hurting the reactionaries' feelings.

I don't give a fuck about their feelings, I give a fuck about what they do when you take the wrong course of action. It's a very common thing in modern "liberal" ideals. The actions of people are not decided by free will, they aren't a free choice, or they aren't as much as we ever thought they were in the past. It's the environment that makes the people, and it's up to us to ensure that environment promotes the best society.

[–]adminbeast 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

I am treating you as an adult who is seeing a hate group and thinking "if I do the same thing they do, but to them, it'll make them go away!"

Never said that. Never thought that. But, you know, go on: keep shadowboxing. Keep giving me tedious lectures as if you've just only discovered the idea of communication, or disagreement, or mediation, or liberalism.

You're talking to a strawman, bub, and you are not as clever, or as original, or as unique, or as edgy as you think you are.

[–]bioemerl 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Never said that. Never thought that.

When I read this:

as if any sort of social progress was ever acheived by sitting quietly at home and thinking Reel Happy Thots about how nice it would be if racism were over, but -- despair! -- to think of how people might be made uncomfortable if I expressed myself! No, far better to sit right here, in this chair, alone, and wait for the racists to come around to my way of thinking. That'll happen aaaaaaany day now.

Along with your general tone in your posts:

I assumed that's what you mean. You believe the only way to achieve progress is to attack, shun, not engage with, etc, the racists.

Sorry if I expressed it incorrectly, or interpreted what you said incorrectly, but that is what I read.

[–]flat_top -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You read too many books.

[–]trizeno 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

There are times for firing up the base and fighting the good fight, and other times for community outreach. This is the former. I think many of "my side" (if I do have to pick one) are simply saying that a variance of tones would be helpful. A MalcomX for every MLK if you will.

I certainly I agree this isn't time for softness. I'm just trying to clarify what we mean. I know you'll write most of this off as concern-trolling, and fairly so. But there is a legitimate kernel of truth in we're trying to say about the larger movement.

In some instances (not this one) it is a good strategy to have a modicum of patience/leniency to people with good hearts. A hammer isn't always the best tool for the job. But I agree alot of the time, it is.

Again, not referencing this case. Just trying to further you understanding of a certain common message.

[–]aeschenkarnos 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

A reasonable point, but I agree with /u/adminbeast - this is hammer time.

As the Portugese say, don't feed the donkey sponge cake. Trolls neither understand nor appreciate patience and leniency. They will perceive it as weakness and attack harder.

[–]adminbeast 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh, great, more tone policing, this time about MLK Jr. That'll learn me.

[–]AnnArchist -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

FPH isn't pure evil - pure evil is HAES.

FPH has saved lives, HAES kills people every day. FPH has inspired countless numbers of people to change their life for the better. HAES encourages people to ignore science and stand still until death shows up.

[–]-Andrew_Ryan- 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Actual reactionary conservatives: people who don't participate in a forum like /r/fatpeoplehate or /r/coontown in order to feel edgy, but who genuinely wish to associate themselves with the sentiments and feelings expressed in these forums.

Stopped reading here. First of all, it is highly questionable to put white supremacy and racism (a major societal problem to this day with a highly violent history) on the same level as shaming overweight people. Second, it seems in very bad faith to essentialize 'reactionary conservative' as 'hate-spouting bigot'. To be a reactionary is to oppose change--this may very well come out to racism, but it may also come out to being a monarchist or advocating Latin-centric education or any number of things. What you are doing here is the equivalent of the people who say 'Progressive= tumblr otherkin who wants to commit genocide against all men'.

[–]adminbeast 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

...so we're not even attempting to defend /r/coontown, we're just defending /r/fatpeoplehate for being marginally less reprehensible than /r/coontown.

[–]-moose- -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

you might enjoy

We will not be going dark again. Our concerns have been met, the ball is in the admins court. "Showing them our power" is what we did in the first go around, and we have no interest in doing it again.

Official thread for contacted subreddits

https://archive.is/cEglm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duKOtf1Z4Pc&t=1m37s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar4v--TVTCI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT14IbTDW2c


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagoning


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8nX-O-hxD0&t=28s


"no information leaves this room": Is Reddit (in danger of) being controlled by an elite few?

https://archive.is/pKCgX


would you like to know more?

https://archive.is/VcrEM