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DiscussionThoughts for Thursday, 02 July 2015 (self.badhistory)

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It's almost Friday everyone, and with that comes the newest latest of the Thoughts for Thursday Thread! Whoot whoot!

Have any weekend plans? Found something interesting this week that you want to discuss? This is the thread to do it! This thread, like the Mindless Monday thread, is free-for-all. Just remember to np link all links to Reddit if you link to something from a different sub, lest we feed your comment to the AutoModerator. No violating R4!

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[–]DsagjiiggsScjjigsjsb一柱亭亭獨立時/ 狂瀾怒觸未曾欹/ 誰言東魯斯文喪/贏得千秋永賴之 5ポイント6ポイント  (12子コメント)

I spent yesterday correcting some of the more egregious mistakes in /r/history. A lot of the times my corrections were accepted politely but then I got into a huge debacle with a conquistador fanatic. Hopefully I didn't perpetrate any major badhistory there, as I said in it I'm not a Mesoamericanist.

Also, so many of /r/history's questions are simply wrong. "What country had the best army in all of history?" How the fuck can you answer that accurately? An army can't be disassociated from its geographical and cultural milieu. The Roman army is fantastic in the Classical Mediterranean, but if you pluck a legion out of Gaul and place it in the middle of the Congo Basin to fight Bantu peoples, how long is the legion going to last compared to their adversaries?

"Which country had won the most wars?" What is a country? What constitutes as victory? What is a war? Does the American Civil War constitute a victory for the United States? Was the Crow War actually a war, and if so, is every conflict of similarly small scale a war? The PRC is a successor to the ROC in the mainland, which itself was the successor to the Qing. So is the Qing conquest of the Southern Ming a "Chinese victory"? No, because the Qing were Manchus? But then, is the Sino-Japanese War not a Chinese loss? Did the Qing suddenly become Chinese when the Southern Ming was conquered? Or were the Qing and Southern Ming both Chinese? But then, what does "Chinese" even mean? Is the Roman Conquest of Gaul a French loss? What about the Frankish Conquest of Gaul? Again, what an idiotic question. What do you even gain by knowing what country had won the most wars?

[–]DirishVeni, Vidi, Predatori 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

"What country had the best army in all of history?"

That's a question you'd expect from a ten year old kid. The answer needs to be accompanied with lots of dramatic gestures and horror stories to suitably impress them. Truthfulness is entirely optional. You just want them to look at you with an open mouth afterwards. I personally go for the Assyrians because they're a fun bunch.

"Which country had won the most wars?"

That's a question also asked by a ten year old which you can answer with, "That's a stupid question, ask me about the coolest army instead."

[–]Georgy_K_ZhukovLend Lease? We don't need no stinking 'Lend Lease'! 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, so many of /r/history's questions are simply wrong.

So, confessional moment here. If we could, we would ban those questions /r/history, and punt them further down the road to /r/AskReddit. Trust me, they annoy us to no end, and those threads are perfectly illustrative of why such questions are, and will always remain, banned from /r/AskHistorians. But, we can't in good conscious do it. For better or for worse, that is the kind of history discussion that a lot of lay-people like to have, and just because it annoys people who have education and training when it comes to historical study isn't justification to ban them from a sub that is supposed to serve general interests.

In a perfect world, there would be three tiers of history subreddits. /r/history for... that..., a more serious subreddit moderated to the standards of /r/AskHistorians but with the more open format of /r/History to allow for wider discussion, and /r/AskHistorians specifically for questions answered to an academic standard. But moderating both of those subs, well, I can tell you without a doubt in my mind that that middle one is quite literally impossible to pull off without a very large, very attentive, and very dedicated moderation team, which is no easy thing to do.

[–]pittfan46 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your beat downs are legendary. I enjoy reading them.

[–]autowikibotLibrary of Alexandria 2.0 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Crow War:

The Crow War, also known as the Crow Rebellion, or the Crow Uprising, was the only armed conflict between the United States and the Crow tribe of Montana, and the last Indian War fought in the state. In September 1887 the young medicine man Wraps-Up-His-Tail, or Sword Bearer, led a small group of warriors in raid against a group of Blackfoot which had captured horses from the Crow reservation. Following the raid, Sword Bearer led his group back to the Crow Agency to inform the Indian agent of his victory, but, an incident arose which ended with the young leader taking his followers into the mountains. In response, the United States Army launched a successful campaign to bring the Crow back to the reservation.

Image i

Relevant: Crow scouts | Thomas H. Ruger | Dakota War of 1862 | War Party (film)

Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Call Me

[–]yoshiKUncultured savage since 476 AD 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Also, so many of /r/history's questions are simply wrong. "What country had the best army in all of history?" How the fuck can you answer that accurately? An army can't be disassociated from its geographical and cultural milieu. The Roman army is fantastic in the Classical Mediterranean, but if you pluck a legion out of Gaul and place it in the middle of the Congo Basin to fight Bantu peoples, how long is the legion going to last compared to their adversaries?

Your discussion implies that one can answer that accurately. Both the US and the Soviet union armed forces can turn any socio-economic context of war into a post apocalyptic wasteland, and they are well equipped to fight in such an environment. However it is interesting to note, that both got beaten in Afghanistan.

[–]DsagjiiggsScjjigsjsb一柱亭亭獨立時/ 狂瀾怒觸未曾欹/ 誰言東魯斯文喪/贏得千秋永賴之 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't quite understand your post. Are you suggesting that the US and the USSR could (have) theoretically turn(ed) the world into a post-apocalyptic wasteland? Well, of course. My point was more about more historical armies, where armies functioned on a local scale; the Roman armies in the Mediterranean world and its environs, the Chinese armies in central and eastern Asia, the Inca armies in the Andes. Now armies like that of the US work on a global scale. I think the OP of the question wanted to know what the strongest army was compared to its contemporaries worldwide in history, and for most of history that can't be answered satisfactorily.

Also it's worth noting that cultural (this including public reaction) and geographical considerations are still crucial to modern warfare.

[–]ciderczarUnrepentant Ouiaboo 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm pretty sure the British have the greatest win-loss record in history, followed by the French.

Sorry, I don't have the exact page, but the source is here:

Stewart, Jon, Ben Karlin, and David Javerbaum. America (the Book): A Citizen's Guide to Democracy Inaction. New York, NY: Warner, 2004. Print.

[–]WorldOneWonAlexander the Great Didn't Real 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I know what you are referencing, but I don't know if you can use a comedy book as a guide.

The biggest issue with "who won the most" is how do you determine the start date for certain countries? For example, does Germany's wins start with when they were unified? What about when it was the HRE? Or the Gauls?

For the "British" is it the entire U.K.? Just England? Did they count Wars between Scotland and England?

Does Italy start with the Roman Empire?

[–]Georgy_K_ZhukovLend Lease? We don't need no stinking 'Lend Lease'! 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I know what you are referencing, but I don't know if you can use a comedy book as a guide.

Isn't that the joke?

[–]WorldOneWonAlexander the Great Didn't Real 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeeaaaaa went straight over my head. I wouldn't be surprised if people had referenced that seriously

[–]ciderczarUnrepentant Ouiaboo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I thought the fact that I'd referenced a comedy book put my comment squarely in the joke category. Maybe I should edit in an /s.

[–]WorldOneWonAlexander the Great Didn't Real 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ha, you never know! I wouldn't be surprised if people referenced it seriously.

[–]nihil_novi_sub_soleW. T. Sherman burned the Library of Alexandria 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

So this has been a hell of a couple of weeks to live in the South. There's been plenty of Confederate bad history or general stupidity, including someone writing a letter to the local paper claiming that the Confederacy never lost because no treaties were signed, despite the surrender of its armies and arrest of its president; it was kind of them to actually come out and admit that they truly believe the war is still going on.

There was also the local radio morning show claiming that removing Confederate flags from public property is "erasing history". While that's a stupid argument on its own, it's infuriating that it's often paired with accusations that people opposed to the flag are "dredging up history when it's really all about what it means now!"

I'd been very angry about all this when Victoria 2 decided to give me a present. While playing as the USA, Texas won its independence from Mexico, got swarmed with immigrants from Europe, and then abolished slavery to accommodate them. Texas entered the Union as a free state, and I proudly incorporated Texan brigades into what became the Army of the Potomac, since I trusted them to stay out of the Confederacy. It was the most heartwarming thing to ever happen to me in that game, although that may not be saying a lot for an ethnic strife/great war/colonialism simulator.

[–]_sekhmet_The Original Thundercat 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Confederacy never lost because no treaties were signed, despite the surrender of its armies and arrest of its president; it was kind of them to actually come out and admit that they truly believe the war is still going on.

What the hell? Do they think the North has just been occupying the South for the last 150 years? I mean, I've been seeing incredibly stupid "Southern Pride" crap this week, which is especially cringe worthy considering I live in WV, but nothing has been quite that stupid yet.

[–]nihil_novi_sub_soleW. T. Sherman burned the Library of Alexandria 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep, since the US never signed any treaties with the CSA, this proves that the war is still ongoing even though the entire Confederate government and military surrendered, died, or were arrested. Nevermind that the war was predicated on the Confederacy not being a foreign country, they still had to recognize it as one in order for the war to end for real.

I hate to imagine all the West Virginians spinning in their graves as they see their descendants essentially rally against the existence of their state.

[–]TurnshroudLiterally Hitler 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, it appears I'll be headed to Michigan apparently...and by Michigan I mean the very edge...apparently you can see the Northern Lights from the city NMU is in. How? I don't know. I wont question it. Fucking cold though according to wikipedia--which is why I'll henceforth be calling this my Exile to the Wall.

That said, where's this guy getting "topknot" from? We don't censor topknot. Did he just think of it at the top of his head? Why would we censor the name for for a Japanese hairstyle?

[–]alynnidalarThere needs to be cooked is the rice. - /u/badhistory_ss 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

AHAHAHA they actually managed to trick another person into going to Marquette!!! cough I mean I'm sure you'll greatly enjoy your time there, especially in January.

Seriously though, I love the UP in the summer. Lake Superior is cold year-round but it and the shore are still beautiful, assuming you like looking at trees without other people around. You must also do the following:

  • eat smoked fish
  • eat pasties
  • not really like pasties but claim that you love them and argue stridently about what pasty shop is the best
  • go to Mackinac Island and eat fudge
  • argue stridently about what fudge shop is the best (Murray Hotel has good deals, but I've always liked Ryba's)

[–]TurnshroudLiterally Hitler 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

AHAHAHA they actually managed to trick another person into going to Marquette!!! cough I mean I'm sure you'll greatly enjoy your time there, especially in January.

Ya I know it's Marquette but I need to start somewhere so whatever. Also, I've experienced -35C winters, I'll be fine >.>

That said, I looked at some images, it really IS quite magnificent looking. Thanks for the tips. I'm liking the sound of that fudge

[–]8BallTigerInvest in confederate Bonds, the South will rise again! 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

4th of July PSA. There is a difference between a BBQ and grilling out. That is all

[–]FeragornTime Traveling Space Jew 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

One of my dad's grad students just defended his master's thesis on the paleontology of some group of turtle species. Apparently the guy's pretty good, because he's got all kinds of research that he didn't use for the master's that he can use for his PhD. My dad seems pretty happy because most of his other students are straight geologists, and he rarely gets to handle any paleontology.

In other news, I answered this question yesterday and it really surprised me. How do people not know the basic history of Christianity? Looking over his history, OP doesn't really strike me as somebody who lives under a rock or lives in a country with no exposure to Christianity or Islam or Judaism. Maybe he was asking more about specific theological decisions by church leaders and Jewish leaders but almost all of those decisions had absolutely nothing to do with each other.

[–]WorldOneWonAlexander the Great Didn't Real 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's technically Friday for me! Woohoo! Thanks America for being #1 best country ever and getting me the day before your birthday off!

[–]alynnidalarThere needs to be cooked is the rice. - /u/badhistory_ss 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I did not buy the Merica shirt the other day, and now I'm feeling slightly disappointed in myself.

I do, however, plan to enjoy Capitalism Democracy Red White And Blue Remembrance Day by stuffing myself full of grilled foods, watching colorful explosions, and getting sunburned. Enjoy your LACK OF FREEDOM AND EAGLES, commies from other countries!

(for serious, though, it's gotta be weird as a non-American to hear us going on and on about the Fourth, even if (at least from me) it's mostly tongue-in-cheek)

[–]MBarry829God bless you T-Rex 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Swing by an old navy and get a flag shirt. It's still not too late capitalist brother!

[–]ciderczarUnrepentant Ouiaboo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Football didn't come home :(

[–]Spartacus_the_trollThe burning of the the Library of Alexandria was from an STD.[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I kind of wanted the US to play England, instead of reenacting WWII.

Okay, Germany's taken care of; time for Japan.

[–]djp06475It's wrong when YOUR country does it. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Off to visit family in NH today. I plan on a trip to Mt. Washington sometime during the weekend.

[–]MBarry829God bless you T-Rex 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

TF2 IS UPDATING AND ITS BIG AND FULL OF CHANGES

[–]_sekhmet_The Original Thundercat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And all of those changes are new hats.

[–]_sekhmet_The Original Thundercat 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

thank god today is only a seven hour day and I get tomorrow off for the 4th of July. This week has been exhausting and I only got an hour of sleep last night because couches make terrible beds and I got really wrapped up in Iron Chef America. At least today is going to be a quiet day at work and I can sit in my cubicle all day.

In other news, the tooth I had to have pulled is healing well and my face looks much better. I also finished watching this terrible show my cousin sent me called Bonekickers. It was a bbc show, and it there's so much bad history in it that it hit t to watch. The episode in Boudica was particularly bad. According to the show Boudica was captured by a Roman writer, they fell in love, then were discovered by another roman, which drove Boudica to kill herself. Then the roman guy she fell in love with started the great fire of Rome to avenge Boudica. It was all very stupid and very wrong. It's also free in YouTube if you want to look it up, the episode is called the Eternal Flame or something like that.

[–]hypocrite_deerThe Indians called it "maze." 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have a serious question that I'm afraid to post because I exclusively lurk in this community and love it so much and I desperately want you guys to think I'm cool and to make a good impression and to be not a horrible racist lost causer.

I really love Civil War history. Just an amateur buff, but I live in the Shenandoah, and I love collecting anecdotes about local battles, reading about the Valley campaigns and visiting the sites and monuments. An older fellow history buff friend of mine is into reenactment, and he's taken this flag stuff really personally. I disagree with him about that entirely; the flag might have a specific set of slavery-free, local associations for him, but to someone else, it's a symbol of hate that's very alive and well in this country. My friends is a good person, but he can't seem to see to divorce himself from his own perspective. He can't see that he is only able to selectively enjoy something that for a whole race of Americans is tied into subjugation because he's a white guy, with poor white Valley farmer ancestors.

Then I started wondering, like... is it possible to even reconcile that interest in myself? Am I just participating in that same badhistory cherry-picking by my interest in Stuart and Jackson and Lee? How do I rationalize a local, academic enjoyment of my area's Civil War participation (which was so exclusively Confederate) with my understanding of the Confederacy as a racist institution that had the preservation of slavery at the heart of its mission?

I realize I could read about Nazi leaders without empathizing/cheering for the Nazis, but this feels somehow different since there's so much regional pride tied in with it. I'm not looking for permission, I'm just worried I have a little bit of a blind spot about this, and wanted to see what some more intelligent people than me think.

[–]A_Crazy_CanadianEU4 is a Academic Source 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Happy (Late) Canada Day!!!

Also, I love academic rivals duking it out for years. I found a train of attacks and counter attacks going back about 15 years, with most of the papers in one journal.

[–]pittfan46 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is Friday for me too :D

But because of the long weekend, I am forced to work longer hours this week. I am in the midst of two 13 hour shifts at the pools at pitt. Yay...

Guys, we need more players for /r/HistoricalWorldPowers. Especially in India and America. Pls join.

I'm pretty excited for city year new york. I just wish I knew where I was working in the city.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the civil war badhistory post yesterday. It was like a damn book. Awesome.

Umm everyone celebrate responsibly this weekend.

Howre you all doing??

[–]ParkSungJunRebel without a lost cause 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am in the middle of trying to host a shitty mapgame on the crusades here, which is a period I know nothing about. Sign up and I promise that I will be as lackadaisical as possible.

[–]SphereIsGreat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I started reading John Keegan's The Book of War but put it down after the introduction. Some of Keegan's generalizations about the history of warfare left a sour taste in my mouth.

I might come back to the book as a reference.

[–]jaguarlyra 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I hate the 4th of July and the days around it. Everyone keeps setting off fireworks and it scares me a lot.

[–]WorldOneWonAlexander the Great Didn't Real 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hate the 4th of July and the days around it

IF YOU DON'T LIKE AMERICA, YOU CAN JUST GIT OUT

[–]nihil_novi_sub_soleW. T. Sherman burned the Library of Alexandria 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

My dog agrees wholeheartedly.

[–]WalkingOsteoclast 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I just hate all the assholes who keep setting off fireworks in my city. We, and our neighbors, ban them for the very good reason that we'd not like to start any major fires, especially in the middle of a major drought.

[–]jaguarlyra 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No fear of fires here, it rains everyday. Just the noise isn't the best for many people.