上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 475

[–]WyntonMarsalis 343ポイント344ポイント  (137子コメント)

I will defend someone's right to say anything, but that doesn't mean that I can't disagree with him and protest him at the same time. I just won't shut him down using the gubmint.

[–]Neebatmarginal libertarian 218ポイント219ポイント  (59子コメント)

I will defend your right to be an asshole. And I will call you an asshole for it.

[–]WyntonMarsalis 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is one way to put it.

[–]DataLoreThrowaway 42ポイント43ポイント  (54子コメント)

The issue isn't about the government. It's about a set of moral authoritarians who do will do anything and everything in their power to shut down dissenting opinions in the name of their own moral authority.

You may think someone is an asshole and call them that, but then turning around and saying "This asshole doesn't need to have a job or a livelihood, despite his opinion having nothing to do with his job, and I'm going to rally my internet pals to make such a stink over it that, despite the fact that we're only a few people, companies will bow to us under threat of, gasp, bad publicity for overly-amplified and sometimes made-up issues.

That's moral authoritarianism: There is no bad tactics, only bad targets.

[–]Neebatmarginal libertarian 50ポイント51ポイント  (26子コメント)

I think a great example of this is the judges in Texas and elsewhere who are refusing to do their job (marrying people) just because they have religious objections. They have every right to their religious objections. They are free to practice them. But when it affects their ability to do the job they were hired to do, they need to be fired.

Your right to be a harmless asshole is unconditional. But no one has a responsibility to keep an asshole on the payroll.

[–]EAJ97 11ポイント12ポイント  (17子コメント)

Man, it's hard being a libertarian in Texas.

[–]Neebatmarginal libertarian 18ポイント19ポイント  (13子コメント)

The gay marriage decision made it a little easier. Now the conservatives say the government should get out of the marriage business, which is what libertarians were saying all along.

[–]HugzNStuffbanned from /Conservative 5ポイント6ポイント  (12子コメント)

Marriage is a government institution with financial and legal benefits, so I don't know how that would work. Some cultures have religious ceremonies like weddings, handfasting, or nikahs, in order to form a union spiritually, but you can get married and not have a wedding, just as you can have a wedding and not be married.

[–]WyntonMarsalis 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

Why not have the same government benefits without the term marriage?

[–]bluefootedpigminarchist 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

why change the name when it would do the same thing?

[–]cobbs_totem 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Because the word "marriage" is politically-charged. It has references to the Bible and people conjur up all sorts of reasons to be against it then. If you re-defined it as two consenting adults who want to sign up for health benefits, or file tax forms jointly, then suddenly it all just seems like a couple of dudes splitting a cable bill.

[–]FBAguy13 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why not just get rid of the benefits and let marriage be religious?

I just fill out my taxes on my income, and I don't get breaks over someone else because I had a kid or got married.

[–]HugzNStuffbanned from /Conservative 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Aside from being redundant, it's because we are a non-denominational country. Your proposition would mean having a different legal term(with the same definition) for every congregation.

[–]Qel_Hoth 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Or you have a single non-denominational term for everyone.

The government issues you a civil union license and then you go to your church/temple/synagogue/mosque/etc to get married. The law would refer only a civil union.

[–]MillionMonkeyArmyminarchist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why not have the same government benefits without the term marriage?

Why should two people have gubamint benefits just because they are friends with genital benefits?

Just sayin'

[–]Cobra990 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hard being one here in Alabama as well...

[–]Cobra990 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hard being one here in Alabama as well...

[–]INTERNET_TRASHCAN 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

try being a super-edgy ancap.

fereal tho.

"So, like, no government? Won't people just start murdering each other immediately?" hyperbolic but accurate...

[–]Your_Using_It_Wrong 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

Isn't that people just using the free market? They're not using force.

I don't agree with the tactic, but it seems inconsistent for libertarians to decry the same free market that they fetishize.

[–]chiguyNon-labelist 10ポイント11ポイント  (8子コメント)

Sounds like you have a problem with the companies, not with the vocal few. But I can see one of the big reasons that companies would capitulate is because, for example, if a tech company has a large minority (race or sexuality) and a high level employee comes out against one of those causes, it may be difficult for the employees in that group to feel the company they work for supports them. So, instead of losing 60 employees to a competitor that has a more friendly stance or senior/exec management, it is easier to downsize the 1 employee who may have created a hostile environment whether real or perceived.

[–]DataLoreThrowaway -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

if a tech company has a large minority (race or sexuality) and a high level employee comes out against one of those causes, it may be difficult for the employees in that group to feel the company they work for supports them.

I don't get that. A ton of upper management is conservative and hate welfare or minimum wage. That doesn't mean that all of the janitors suddenly quit.

whether real or perceived.

And that's precisely the issue. If you're "offended", you're suddenly elevated to an ivory tower of unquestioning belief. Everyone has to believe in your offended nature and act based on it, whether or not anything was actually done.

[–]chiguyNon-labelist 10ポイント11ポイント  (6子コメント)

That doesn't mean that all of the janitors suddenly quit.

It may mean that over the course of 6 months a lot of highly skilled programmers will leave and bring their knowledge to competitors. And perhaps the janitors are paid enough that they don't get min. wage or welfare. I'm obviously not talking about those folks.

Everyone has to believe in your offended nature and act based on it, whether or not anything was actually done.

If the person thinks something happened and you don't, it doesn't mean that nothing happened.

[–]DataLoreThrowaway 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

It may mean that over the course of 6 months a lot of highly skilled programmers will leave and bring their knowledge to competitors.

Because their bosses are conservative rather than liberal? Jesus, what kind of programmers are you hiring? If that were true, we'd have a complete separation of companies based on political ideology. I thought diversity was good, no?

If the person thinks something happened and you don't, it doesn't mean that nothing happened.

And if the person thinks something happened, that doesn't mean it did.

[–]chiguyNon-labelist 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Because their bosses are conservative rather than liberal?

Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I'm not talking about such generalities about political leanings but specifically homophobia and racism.

Jesus, what kind of programmers are you hiring?

Good ones who want to work in an inclusive environment.

And if the person thinks something happened, that doesn't mean it did.

Cool. So let people act on what they think happened.

[–]DataLoreThrowaway 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not talking about such generalities about political leanings but specifically homophobia and racism.

And I'm talking about political leanings. Because pretending it's just about homophobia and racism is precisely the issue. Those are easy targets. But now because they're such easy targets, we've got people calling others racists and homophobes whenever it's convenient, in order to silence their dissenting opinions.

Good ones who want to work in an inclusive environment.

I thought diversity was supposed to make the workplace better. That includes all points of view, no?

Cool. So let people act on what they think happened.

Why? Whatever happened to objective reality? Either something happened or it didn't.

[–]chiguyNon-labelist 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

And I'm talking about political leanings.

OK. I don't have a problem with a lower level employee quitting because an manager or exec has a different political view. I don't think it happens in any measurable quantity, but who am I to tell them to stay at a company they don't feel comfortable at.

I thought diversity was supposed to make the workplace better. That includes all points of view, no?

Seems like not everyone thinks that homophobic people make a workplace better. I know I wouldn't feel comfortable at my office if one or a few of my coworkers were adamantly against Indian folks since my wife is Indian.

Why?

Why let people act on what they think happened? Because people have freewill.

[–]LiberatricFilthy Statist 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't know though, isn't this in a way simply the free market at work? Maybe I don't want to buy, view, or use things that I know an asshole is part of producing. What if I feel strongly enough about it to tell others? That just ends up being word of mouth marketing at the end of it.

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Do you really care that much about the personal opinions of the people you interact with? Do you also ask them about their sexuality so you don't have to interact with icky gays?

[–]LiberatricFilthy Statist 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

No I don't, which I will cede is a good point. That said, if someone decides they're going to mistreat others over something like sexuality, gender, race, etc (or their employees in general) and then proceed to broadcast that view (or act in a way that does this for them) in a manner that doesn't require my asking I might then begin to care enough not to consume products and services they're involved with providing. At that point I think they forfeit that polite consideration.

[–]DataLoreThrowaway 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, because boycotting the Koch brothers has gone so well.

Face it, this just gets applied to easy targets while the hard targets get to laugh and continue fighting against us.

Even boycotting of so-called "offensive" companies hasn't worked out so well. Just look up the Protein World controversy. These people have tons of yelling power, and no actual stopping power.

[–]LiberatricFilthy Statist 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It doesn't need to be effective as a larger policy statement for it to be a behavior that I prefer. It's as simple as me not wanting to spend my money on products and services offered by those that I deem unworthy of my patronage. If they don't change they simply continue to remain so. I don't expect massive change to occur due to my own personal purchasing decisions or because I told some of my friends that someone is an asshole.

[–]DataLoreThrowaway 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look up the Protein World controversy. I'm convinced that once companies stop thinking every online mob will cost them business, things will get immensely better for everyone.

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

If you think it has anything to do with a corporation "bowing to a hostile vocal minority" rather than using its resources to protect the image that leads to their profitability while maintining management and employees that contribute the the culture and environment that the company desires, you are sorely mistaken.

As said elsewhere, assholes are freely permitted to be assholes, but nobody is obligated to keep an asshole on payroll, and freedom of speech does not protect an asshole from repercussions from the private sector.

These "moral authoritarian" boogeymen only have the power that you give them. If they wail and moan and cry in the streets about an unfounded offense, nobody will give these people any credibility.

But if a large group raises their voices about something said or done that genuinely portrays an organization in poor light, and that organization feels its in their best interest to break ties, that is not the case of dire bullying that you're making it out to be. It's not "overly-amplified" just because YOU don't think it's important while thousands of others do. That's a group making their voices heard, and another group making a decision that ultimately affects the one thing they WILL bow to: capital. And that's exactly how it should be.

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

Let's be in the group that pushes back against the group that wants you to get fired for telling a joke to your friend.

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'll be in the group that promotes a private company exercising at-will employment.

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm in favor of institutions that respect the free speech of their employees and colleagues, like most libertarian-run institutions do. I like interacting with people different from me.

[–]Mast3r0fPip3ts 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Firing an employee for making the company look like a jackass is not disrespecting freedom of speech. I work in a plenty diverse environment, and we all manage to get along without being unprofessional enough to warrant reprimand, public or private.

So, just to be clear, you believe a company should place the "free speech without fear of any reprimand or repercussion" of its employees before its own reputation, culture, work environment, credibility, and profitability?

If you owned a mid-to-large sized company and one of those employees, in a public forum, said "Man, if there's one thing I can't stand, it's niggers." That employee would have no fear of reprimand from you? If an employee said to another "I think you're an insufferable cunt." in front of any kind of audience, or hell even in private, there would be no repercussion?

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Firing an employee for making the company look like a jackass is not disrespecting freedom of speech.

I think you overestimate the popularity of these eternally offended blowhards. Most people think they are jackasses.

[–]ifisa 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

"I don't like these people who want someone fired because they say something disagreeable. We should stop it. Maybe if we armed a group of people and told them that you can't fire someone for what they said, but obviously voted on where to draw that line, it would be better!"

[–]FiscalCliffHuxtableLeft Libertarian 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

For a minute there in the first paragraph, I thought you were talking about religious conservatives and their propensity to use the state to provide themselves and their religious dogma privilege over those they deem heretical or sinful. For that matter, the bottom caption of the linked image could also apply directly to them. I was a bit confused by the OPs image macro at first, but then I realized that it isn't just liberals who like to use state violence to bring about their desired ends.

[–]DataLoreThrowaway 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's quite similar. Think identically to us or we'll shut you down. Believe in us or we'll cast you out.

[–]JasonDJ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is how I feel about Donald Trump. He wants to sue Univision for dropping the contract with him. I don't know the details about their contract, but I know he is using Freedom of Speech as a basis. Clearly this presidential hopeful doesn't understand the meaning of it.

[–]ikorolou 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

what a great way to rephrase it

[–]Meapalien 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I will let you say anything, I'll just try to convince you you're wrong

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can disagree with you wanting to destroy your career and reputation.

[–]hoopladude 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

this was exactly what came to my mind. isnt the liberal supposed to be fine with the "progressive" doing all that? isnt this image just bitching about people bitching? weak ass bulllcrap imo

[–]FlexGunshiprational anarchist -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

You become wrong when you introduce force.

[–]WyntonMarsalis 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

You are confusing governmental force and societal force.

[–]FlexGunshiprational anarchist 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope. Societal force is great. So long as no one raises a hand or gun.

[–]astesla 56ポイント57ポイント  (30子コメント)

That's called challenging their speech in the marketplace of ideas. I have no problem with this as long as they don't get the government involved.

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1357/

[–]xkcd_transcriber 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Image

Title: Free Speech

Title-text: I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.

Comic Explanation

Stats: This comic has been referenced 2040 times, representing 2.8834% of referenced xkcds.


xkcd.com | xkcd sub | Problems/Bugs? | Statistics | Stop Replying | Delete

[–]Nsom3th1ing 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree. All speech should be allowed to enter the marketplace of ideas, where ultimately people will accept the good ideas and reject the bad. The problem with using tactics that harm people for their ideas (such as getting someone fired) is it creates a chilling effect on speech. Anything that makes ideas less likely to enter the marketplace is bad, even if the ideas are ultimately rejected.

Imo, if speech offends you so deeply you feel compelled to take action against the speaker in their personal life, the ideas are either too fringe to be taken seriously, or you're too easily offended.

[–]astesla 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You don't necessarily need a particular job to get your ideas out there. The employer should have the right to fire an employee for any reason or no reason.

[–]SGClevelandconsequentialist 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well, yes it's legal for them to have bad ideas and it's legal for others to ostracize them, but it's not necessarily good.

Tolerance of ideas is separate from government-not-censoring ideas. Tolerance is something we should strive for, even if there's no libertarian moral philosophy that tells us social ostracizing is wrong. Getting people fired for what people say or think outside of their job is not technically against the laws, but it does make our society worse. This goes for both people that say things that offend the Left and the Right.

I highly recommend reading Scott Alexander discussing how tolerance has basically gone out the window, and that this is really bad:

I can tolerate anyone except the outgroup.

Fearful Symmetry (SJWs and non-SJWs both do this)

In Favor of Niceness, Community, and Civilization

[–]astesla 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

It depends on the merit of the idea. This post is talking about ideas that you disapprove of. If you think an idea is false or counterproductive, that's a good reason to disapprove. This post doesn't presume how you come to disapprove of something. I think you're referring to closed mindedness, which I agree is a problem.

[–]SGClevelandconsequentialist 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well in practice, "disapproval" has meant turning people into social outcasts and getting them fired. So disliking a person's idea is not a good reason to "disapprove" of someone, since we are not very good at differing good ideas from bad ones. We get results like Nobel prize winners getting fired over bad sexist jokes and as noted above, conservative theorists getting banned from tech conferences.

[–]Classical_Liberaleancap 49ポイント50ポイント  (32子コメント)

Public shaming and social ostracization are consistent with libertarian philosophy of the free-market.

[–]d357r0y3r 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ostracism isn't just consistent with libertarianism; it's the central way of dealing with problems.

If you can't use the government to punish people (or would use government as a last resort), what other options are there? Well, ostracism is pretty much it. Businesses can be ostracized (boycotting). Individuals can be ostracized.

One of the best libertarian arguments against discrimination laws is as follows: if someone actually opens a "whites only" restaurant, the public scrutiny will be so harsh that the restaurant will find it very difficult to become profitable.

[–]FBAguy13 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with this.

But at the same time I think there is some need for government intervention because of the fact we live in a democracy. So libertarian solutions aren't always feasible.

Think of slavery or womens rights. How can they have a voice when the government says they don't have a voice.

Obviously in a libertarian system they would have had those rights from the start, but that's irrelevant because it isn't a libertarian system. So we do have to go to the government in certain circumstances barring a complete overhaul of the American legal system.

[–]Seventytvvo 9ポイント10ポイント  (16子コメント)

Guys... this kind of thing is very dangerous. It's exactly how cults and religious groups used to keep things together. They would ostracise and excommunicate their unruly members. IT IS A FORM OF CENSORSHIP BECAUSE IT AIMS TO SILENCE.

I'm not a conservative, so don't accuse me of that, but I am damn sure that this kind of thinking is bad for free speech in general. Would you accept a society where conservative christians fired you and shamed you into going to church? How is this different from the Scarlet Letter?

Why is it that whenever people think they have the moral high ground - whether it's libertarians, conservative christians, islamists, whatever - that they suddenly start saying it's perfectly fine to treat other human beings with differing views as second rate people?

Ostracising and shaming is not cool. It's the overshoot of an effort to keep other people from imposing their beliefs on you. We have to be defensive here! The gay rights thing has been a big victory for equality, but WE CANNOT TRY TO FORCE PEOPLE TO GET ON BOARD, OR WE ARE NO BETTER THAN THEM.

Live and let live.

[–]cjet79 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

Live and let live.

Glad I am not alone in this thread. The sentiment in here is seriously frightening. I don't fight government censorship so that I can live in a world where private citizens censor each other all the time. Live and let live is a good reminder of the core libertarian ideal. Its not "live and let others live how we think they should live, and shame them if they aren't doing it correctly".

[–]Scaliwagroadbuilding investor 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't fight government censorship so that I can live in a world where private citizens censor each other all the time.

So you fight Govt. censorship so Govt. can force private citizens to not censor what Govt. brands as protected speech?

[–]Wologliberal 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

"I think private censorship is bad" does not mean "the government should prevent private censorship".

[–]Scaliwagroadbuilding investor 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Certainly it's not the same.

Even so, it has yet to be demonstrated that it is inherently bad. I think it's almost self evident that it can be a good thing.

Should newspapers publish anything you send to them, for example? I don't see a reason why they should at all, and that is censorship.

When my kids were growing up, should I have allowed the nanny to teach them Marxist "revolutionary" ideas behind my back? Obvisouly not, so I censored her and fired her (true story btw).

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is inherently bad until proven good. Obviously, a subreddit called /r/widgets has an interest in censoring discussion of foo and bar, since that's off topic. On the other hand, /r/libertarian's free speech moderation policy is obviously a lot more admirable than a subreddit that censors things arbitrarily and enthusiastically. And Widget University should not be censoring its students or faculty for being proponents of the foobarism school of thought... period.

[–]Wologliberal 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course it can be a good thing. But there are very good reasons to think that, in general, it is bad. They are as follows:

First, if any opinion is compelled to silence, that opinion may, for aught we can certainly know, be true. To deny this is to assume our own infallibility.

Secondly, though the silenced opinion be an error, it may, and very commonly does, contain a portion of truth; and since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied.

Thirdly, even if the received opinion be not only true, but the whole truth; unless it is suffered to be, and actually is, vigorously and earnestly contested, it will, by most of those who receive it, be held in the manner of a prejudice, with little comprehension or feeling of its rational grounds.

And not only this, but, fourthly, the meaning of the doctrine itself will be in danger of being lost, or enfeebled, and deprived of its vital effect on the character and conduct: the dogma becoming a mere formal profession, inefficacious for good, but cumbering the ground, and preventing the growth of any real and heartfelt conviction, from reason or personal experience.

(Citation not needed on this subreddit).

The point is that there are positive reasons to encourage unpopular opinions to be voiced. These reasons should be weighed by private individuals who consider trying to silence someone, just as they weigh against government attempts to silence dissent.

Obviously there will be many cases where private individuals, weighing the harms against the benefits, decide that it would be appropriate to silence someone's speech. There's nothing wrong with that. However there are also many cases where speech is unpopular, or even harmful, but the harm does not outweigh the benefits we all receive from hearing the speech.

The fear many of us have is that those benefits are not being considered by some. They deserve to be.

[–]cjet79 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, this is like the third time I have had to explain in this thread that the way to stop private censorship doesn't involve using government censorship.

Is it really so much to ask around here that people participate in a discussion without assuming everyone else is a hypocrite?

[–]NDIrish27Practicing None-Of-Your-Damn-Businessian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The person you are replying to is completely correct, though. Reputation is one of the most valuable thing a person or business owns in a free market. And it is very important to share information about who is reputable and who is not. For example. A disreputable company should be publicly shamed and boycotted or ostracized until they change their behavior. That's how the free market works.

Live and let live sounds nice in theory, but public "shaming" is an integral part of any free market.

[–]argybargy3j 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

There is a difference between deciding not to do business with someone because you disagree with them, and actively campaigning to have them punished in the marketplace because you disagree them.

One is a live-and-let-live philosophy, and the other is a "dissent must be punished" philosophy.

[–]Classical_Liberaleancap 16ポイント17ポイント  (6子コメント)

There is a difference between deciding not to do business with someone because you disagree with them, and actively campaigning to have them punished in the marketplace because you disagree them.

Only if the active campaign is to beg the State to intervene. There's nothing anti-libertarian in people taking to facebook/twitter or anywhere to talk stuff about bad companies.

[–]SGClevelandconsequentialist 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

They are allowed under libertarian philosophy, but consistent? I wouldn't say that. Libertarianism is based on classical liberalism, which has as a guiding principle tolerance. Tolerance means going beyond just not making it illegal to e.g. kill all Catholics. It means a liberal society should allow Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims to interact with each other peacefully, and not socially ostracize a particular group for their differing religious beliefs. Or political beliefs.

[–]Classical_Liberaleancap 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I see libertarianism as primarily a political philosophy; one that concerns about the nature of the State, the relationship between the State and individuals, groups etc. Libertarianism doesn't attempt to define/guide individuals behaviour in interaction with other individuals and groups per se.

Some call the NAP as the fundamental philosophy guiding individual behavior, but even NAP doesn't put any restriction on and so is compatible with public shaming and social ostracization depending on the definition of property.

[–]SGClevelandconsequentialist 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes, libertarianism is a theory of justice, not really a theory of personal values. Nevertheless, there are principles that are associated with libertarian ideas that improve society. I'm gonna pull from another comment here:

Tolerance of ideas is separate from government-not-censoring ideas. Tolerance is something we should strive for, even if there's no libertarian moral philosophy that tells us social ostracizing is wrong. Market interactions help us value people who we otherwise might hate, but we treat them better because we mutually benefit from trade. Getting people fired for what people say or think outside of their job is not technically against the laws, but it does make our society worse. This goes for both people that say things that offend the Left and the Right.

I highly recommend reading Scott Alexander discussing how tolerance has basically gone out the window, and that this is really bad:

I can tolerate anyone except the outgroup.

Fearful Symmetry (SJWs and non-SJWs both do this)

In Favor of Niceness, Community, and Civilization

[–]Classical_Liberaleancap 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

In the market, there will be a lot of actors. Vocal and intolerable SJWs might be one such group. But what action can one take against such actors without the backing of a State. It turns out that shaming again is the only quick tactic to use against hate groups in a free-market. In long-term awareness, technology and more can help but shaming is the quick counter to hate.

[–]winowmak3rSTOP SHOOTING OUR DOGS! 59ポイント60ポイント  (87子コメント)

Hey, they can still say whatever they like, they just won't work wherever it was when they said it. Neither of those two is advocating for the government to censor what people say, at least according to that picture. The court of public opinion isn't bound to the constitution.

[–]eeeeeeeeeepc 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

The US Constitution doesn't define a good society, and rights are just a tiny fraction of civilized social norms. We're talking about the very old idea that you should speak your mind and tolerate people who do. King Lear was written long before the English Bill of Rights.

If everyone is accountable to an employer or school or other master of his speech, only the really zealous will speak. Sure, it's not force and the individual could in theory speak his mind and walk away. Does that make the social consequences acceptable though?

There are still people who don't have a speechmaster and can say whatever they want. The big groups here are government employees, low-wage workers, and retirees (Notice how many old folks there are on political discussion sites with real-name policies). No one wants these groups to end up dominating public discussion.

You should be more concerned.

[–]cjet79 9ポイント10ポイント  (20子コメント)

Its racists today, what if its libertarians tomorrow? What if holding some libertarian opinion becomes hated by a twitter mob?

I understand libertarianism is just about what government does. But do you honestly want to live in a society where public opinion is shaped by who has the strongest internet attack mob?

[–]JustZisGuyCthulhu 2016, why vote for the lesser evil? 32ポイント33ポイント  (12子コメント)

But do you honestly want to live in a society where public opinion is shaped by who has the strongest internet attack mob?

... you realize we already live in that society, right? You also realize that there's no way to prevent that without laws abridging free speech, right?

[–]Wologliberal 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

Of course you can. You can convince people that it is wrong to censor speech through coercion, and that changing minds, not silencing voices, is the best way to effect change.

I want to live in a society where everybody reads. I don't the government should force people to read. I want to live in a society where people can voice unpopular opinions without losing their jobs. I don't want the government to prevent companies from firing people voicing unpopular opinions.

[–]JustZisGuyCthulhu 2016, why vote for the lesser evil? 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Of course you can. You can convince people that it is wrong to censor speech through coercion, and that changing minds, not silencing voices, is the best way to effect change.

No. That may foster an environment where many people behave that way, but it will not, and can not prevent those who disagree with you from doing so.

I want to live in a society where everybody reads. I don't the government should force people to read. I want to live in a society where people can voice unpopular opinions without losing their jobs. I don't want the government to prevent companies from firing people voicing unpopular opinions.

And? Who's suggesting government do those things?

[–]Wologliberal 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

No. That may foster an environment where many people behave that way, but it will not, and can not prevent those who disagree with you from doing so.

I don't want to prevent people who disagree with me from doing so. I want to prevent living in a society where public opinion is not shaped by those who have the largest attack mob. Fostering an environment where most people think such mobs are wrong in principle is more than sufficient.

And? Who's suggesting government do those things?

I was attempting to demonstrate that the poster's belief did not entail support of government censorship.

[–]JustZisGuyCthulhu 2016, why vote for the lesser evil? 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't want to prevent people who disagree with me from doing so. I want to prevent living in a society where public opinion is not shaped by those who have the largest attack mob. Fostering an environment where most people think such mobs are wrong in principle is more than sufficient.

I don't think you can use the third to accomplish the second without the first. That's my point. I don't think "merely" getting most people to agree with you will solve the problem. It's too easy for small numbers of people to have a loud voice.

I was attempting to demonstrate that the poster's belief did not entail support of government censorship.

Umm, OK. Who suggested it did support that?

[–]Wologliberal 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Umm, OK. Who suggested it did support that?

You seemed to, when you said there was no way to accomplish his goal without government coercion.

I don't think you can use the third to accomplish the second without the first. That's my point. I don't think "merely" getting most people to agree with you will solve the problem. It's too easy for small numbers of people to have a loud voice.

They are free to have as loud a voice as they would like, but I fail to see how that is at odds with what I or the other guy want.

[–]JustZisGuyCthulhu 2016, why vote for the lesser evil? 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

you said there was no way to accomplish his goal without government coercion.

Yes, and since he doesn't support government coercion...

They are free to have as loud a voice as they would like, but I fail to see how that is at odds with what I or the other guy want.

Because those people will be loud enough to have substantial influence even when the vast majority of people subscribe to your "it's a bad idea" theory. Thus, you won't be able to live "in a society where public opinion is not shaped by those who have the largest attack mob", on account of the minority having a vastly disproportionate voice. It's inevitable. The best you can do is try to shape the discourse, not prevent it from happening.

[–]cjet79 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Some people already live in that society. I wouldn't say it has completely permeated everywhere, but it is becoming more common.

You also realize that there's no way to prevent that without laws abridging free speech, right?

This is flat out wrong. And I hate seeing these ideas put forward in a libertarian subreddit. It is lazy thinking that the only way to solve a societal problem is through government intervention. I think government intervention would make this problem worse, because it would get co-opted by the mob and become just another tool for them to attack their political opponents.

Societal change must come from an earnest changing of beliefs by the members of that society. And step 1 for such a change is not to go begging to government, its to do the hard work of convincing people that it would be a better society if they adopt a new belief.

Its a frustrating process (my first response in this thread got downvoted to -1, even though I put time in and made it a thoughtful response). But this is a required process for any non-hypocritical libertarian. I honestly think that if most people thought through what kind of society we might be creating with this precedent they wouldn't like the results.

[–]JustZisGuyCthulhu 2016, why vote for the lesser evil? 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

It is lazy thinking that the only way to solve a societal problem is through government intervention. I think government intervention would make this problem worse, because it would get co-opted by the mob and become just another tool for them to attack their political opponents.

I'm certainly not advocating government intervention, but surely you must realize that people will always disagree with you. Without Force, you will never get all people to not behave the way that you're complaining about. That's not fatalism, that's simple realism.

By all means, exhort people to behave "properly". I support the concept and (depending on your definition of "proper") agree with it... but to pretend as if that will somehow transform everyone is unreasonable. The vast majority of people already are decent human beings. The "problem" is that technology has enabled any one person to have a voice that can reach billions. Without Force, you cannot stop the fringe from being vocal.

[–]cjet79 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm certainly not advocating government intervention, but surely you must realize that people will always disagree with you. Without Force, you will never get all people to not behave the way that you're complaining about. That's not fatalism, that's simple realism.

Not everyone has to agree with me to end the vicious cycle of mob internet attacks. Lynch mobs didn't stop in the south when 100% of people were no longer racist. I just want to end the effectiveness of online attack mobs. I don't have any delusions about getting everyone to be nice to each other on the internet.

Here is one market solution around random bad behavior of other people: insurance. A job insurance policy that pays out if someone loses their job from online pressure. Would mobs really be so excited about getting someone to lose their job if it meant that person was going to get paid a better salary because of how they were fired?

[–]JustZisGuyCthulhu 2016, why vote for the lesser evil? 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lynch mobs didn't stop in the south when 100% of people were no longer racist

Nope, they stopped when laws against murder were enforced.

[–]mickloud 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Societal change must come from an earnest changing of beliefs by the members of that society. And step 1 for such a change is not to go begging to government, its to do the hard work of convincing people that it would be a better society if they adopt a new belief.

While this is true in principle, do you not realize the staggering irony here, especially in context to the posts you are replying to?

Public opinion is shaped by the strongest internet attack mob, which in turn shapes public opinion to not be conducive to libertarian thought because, as popular public opinion will tell you, government is the solution to everything.

I'm dizzy....

[–]cjet79 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

No irony.

  1. I'm libertarian.

  2. I also have preferences about the kind of society I would like to live in. For example, I don't want to live in a racist society.

  3. One of my societal preferences is that I want a society that respects other people's expression/speech (and it is not respectful to try and get someone fired for saying something you don't like).

Where is the irony?

[–]haroldp 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Its racists today, what if its libertarians tomorrow?

What if? What if? I've been calling for the complete legalization of recreational drugs and prostitution since the 1980s. I assure you, it has always been a position unpopular with people at just about every point on the political spectrum. The one thing that Nancy Reagan and Tipper Gore agreed on, was that I was an asshole.

The "what if", is that you get to make a choice as an individual. "Everyone hates my opinion. Am I wrong? Should I maybe change it? If I'm right, is it worth getting on a soap box to try to change other people's options? Should I just keep it to myself?" Humans have been making these choices for as long as there have been humans.

Now most of my "progressive" friends think marijuana should be decriminalized. What about the hookers and blow I demand!?!? They still think I'm an asshole, even though I was 1% vindicated about the marijuana. I'll take my lumps if I have to.

[–]JustZisGuyCthulhu 2016, why vote for the lesser evil? 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

What about the hookers and blow I demand!?!?

Why are you demanding hookers and blow? ;)

[–]haroldp 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

And now I'm gonna get outted on tumblr and lose my business. DAMN!

[–]Zifnab25Filthy Statist 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Have we ever not? Twitter is just the modern iteration of clichish and tribal behaviors people have demonstrated for thousands of years.

That said, what you're describing here really just amounts to internet bullying. And what you're trying to do in order to discourage internet bullying is... whip up a group of people on the internet to protest certain speech. It's the circle of life.

[–]cjet79 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Have we ever not? Twitter is just the modern iteration of clichish and tribal behaviors people have demonstrated for thousands of years.

The mobs have changed. They are less deadly then they were in the past. In Europe the wars between Catholics and Protestants fueled bloodshed and hate for generations. Western society has learned how to deal with religious pluralism. And contrary to what you suggest it wasn't dealt with by some stronger religious order coming in and imposing order.

It's the circle of life.

Its a vicious circle that we have stopped in the past. Its a vicious circle that can eat up civilizations and spit them back out generations later as a weak husk of their former selves.

I'm not asking people to whip up in a fervor and attack the people who want to do that to others. I'm asking everyone to be a calm voice of reason. When the mob comes to your house asking you to go with them, you tell them no. And if you see the mob beating on someone you offer that person help.

[–]Zifnab25Filthy Statist 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The mobs have changed. They are less deadly then they were in the past.

That definitely strikes me as a sign of progress, not regress.

Its a vicious circle that we have stopped in the past.

I'd be intrigued to find a period of time in which no one ever engaged in harsh criticism against anyone else. And while I do love a slippery-slope argument, "If we don't stop disagreeing with each other, our civilization will collapse" seems a bit... apocalyptic. Again, I haven't seen any evidence to support the claim that a society's strength is rooted in the level of blandness in contrary critiques.

When the mob comes to your house...

I'll let you know when that happens, I assure you. In fact, I suspect that if there was ever a full mob at someone's house, the incident would be all over Facebook so fast your head would spin. So far, I've seen a dearth of literal torch-baring mobs mobbing the homes of random internet commentators.

[–]danambro8 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (42子コメント)

I think it's highlighting the double think progressive are known for. They preach freedom and equality while advocating censorship.

[–]winowmak3rSTOP SHOOTING OUR DOGS! 20ポイント21ポイント  (20子コメント)

If all I'm going by is what is said in that graphic then neither one is doing anything wrong.

[–]youngseaguy 12ポイント13ポイント  (13子コメント)

This is classic misunderstanding of what freedom means. There isn't any doublespeak (which doesn't mean what you think it does, but it also isn't hypocrisy, which is presumably what you really meant).

Freedom (i.e., "Freedom of Speech") means that you have the right to express your opinion without being punished by the government. You cannot be thrown in jail. It does not that there should be no consequences for being a bigot or an asshole.

Censorship is the government prohibiting certain speech. Consequences are not censorship.

[–]Seventytvvo 1ポイント2ポイント  (12子コメント)

I totally agree with this guy. There is a TON of that kind of thinking. What it boils down to is trying to impose your beliefs (morals) on others. The "progressive" way isn't as direct as preventing someone from voting or from voicing their opinions publicly, but it has the same goal - to silence - and that's why it's dangerous.

Parties on either side should not be engaged in this.

[–]youngseaguy 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

You agree with who? It doesn't sound like me.

So you think that people should be able to go around spouting Neo-Nazi BS or support for the KKK consequence-free? Because to allow them to face consequences is to attempt to silence them, which is dangerous?

[–]Seventytvvo 0ポイント1ポイント  (10子コメント)

So you think that people should be able to go around spouting Neo-Nazi BS or support for the KKK consequence-free? Because to allow them to face consequences is to attempt to silence them, which is dangerous?

Sure... why not? Why can't they?

[–]youngseaguy 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

Why would I not want an employee who was openly pro-KKK? Are you serious? First of all, I don't want to listen to that inane drivel. Secondly, I wouldn't want my business to be associated with that. And I know, as a customer, I would rather spend my money somewhere where it won't go to the KKK if I can help it.

[–]Seventytvvo 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

First of all, I don't want to listen to that inane drivel.

Okay, then don't hang out with the KKK guys...

Secondly, I wouldn't want my business to be associated with that.

Cool! Then don't associate your business with that!

And I know, as a customer, I would rather spend my money somewhere where it won't go to the KKK if I can help it.

Okay, then do that.

The problem is the ganging up... and then the shaming for not shaming others (as I'm getting a lot of in this thread right now). It says, "Hey, everyone, this guy's an asshole! Let's all be assholes to him back so he can't be an asshole anymore."

The problem with that is that being an asshole is a subjective thing - how do you know you're not the one worthy of being shamed and ridiculed simply for something you believe in?

[–]youngseaguy 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

Ok...but not spending my money somewhere or firing someone I don't want my business associated with are exactly the kind of consequences that you said are dangerous because they attempt to silence speech. Now you say whatever, do it? Which is it?

[–]nmhunate 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

So you think the shop owner in your town should have no consequence for hanging a giant sign saying, "no niggers allowed?"

[–]Seventytvvo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

There should be no government response to this if it is a private establishment.

I don't think hate speech should be a crime. We already have laws against hateful actions (race crimes, hate crimes, etc.) and we already have speech laws against libel and slander. If some asshole wants to hang a sign like that, so what. But the second he starts taking action against someone else it's a problem.

[–]nmhunate 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Op is not talking about progressives using the government.

She is saying that when progressives collectively get together to drive the bigoted businessman out of business because of his views, that that is wrong.

[–]Hates_rollerskates 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are you advocating censorship of the Progressive's views?

[–]haroldp 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nothing in the "progressive" position represented in the image is censorship. Social pressure is not censorship.

[–]tayto 34ポイント35ポイント  (29子コメント)

According to your post, "Classical Liberalism" is the law of the land, and "Progressivism" is the free market.

[–]ashishduh1 36ポイント37ポイント  (26子コメント)

I've noticed libertarians hate the free market when it doesn't work in their favor.

[–]Doublehalfpint 6ポイント7ポイント  (21子コメント)

No, not really. Some might feel that way, but many libertarians accept the punches of the free market.

[–]youngseaguy 11ポイント12ポイント  (17子コメント)

Then why are Libertarians hating on the free market in this post? Retailers removing the confederate flag from their stores is the free market. That is a company deciding they will lose more money by stocking something than they will make by selling it. That is not a ban--it is just the free market.

[–]haroldp 8ポイント9ポイント  (11子コメント)

Where is that happening? OP made a dumb post and the libertarians seem to be calling him out on it. Any agreement with this chucklehead is definitely the exception rather than the rule.

That is not a ban--it is just the free market.

...has been repeated about 50 times here. :)

[–]Doublehalfpint 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Then why are Libertarians hating on the free market in this post?

Highest rated comments are in clear disagreement with the OP.

Retailers removing the confederate flag....

Irrelevant to the conversation, but a majority here are fine with retail stores removing any item they want from stock.

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Retailers removing the confederate flag from their stores is the free market.

Not sure why you think this is about the confederate flag. There have been a lot of these incidents over the past 2 years, and it's getting more common.

[–]ashishduh1 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I mean...this post is #1 on this sub.

[–]Doublehalfpint 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I means its not like /r/Libertarian is a true authority on all things Libertarians believe.

[–]hittingkidsisbadancap 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Besides - or combined with - upvotes coming from outside /r/libertarian I think there may be an underlying issue behind the popularity of this post, namely the issue of slander/libel.

Libertarians are fully aware of how misrepresentations of their views are used against them from both sides of the political spectrum, and reddit as a whole is waking up to how many modern-day "progressives" are willing to misrepresent anyone they disagree with as despicable and ill-intentioned people (Racist! Sexist! Homophobic! Anti-poor!) instead of people who may have good intentions but different ideological viewpoints.

As the saying goes, "People on the right argue that people on the left are wrong, people on the left argue that those on the right are evil".

As for the free market and the Rule of Law (which libertarians do support), I think a good case can be made that slander/libel can do real harm to a person (in the economic sphere or otherwise), and should be treated as immoral or even illegal when it's maliciousness is clear.

Freedom of speech is a great thing, using that freedom to willingly and knowingly slander or libel someone for the purpose of advancing an ideological agenda is another matter altogether.

[–]ashishduh1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

namely the issue of slander/libel

Obviously, that's why lots of people refer to libertarians as "propertarians", because many of them value property over individual rights.

Regardless, if people feel that they are being slandered by the PC police, they have legal recourse, like you stated. Interestingly enough, no suits of note in this category have been successful...

[–]astesla -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Those aren't libertarians.

[–]Snokus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are they Scots by any chance?

[–]typical_pubbie 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This should be the top comment.

[–]TheAntiPedantic 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Progressivism isn't well represented in the photo. Progressives have nothing to do with personal freedom or classical liberalism.

With that in mind, I'll offer my own edit:

Progressivism: I don't agree with what you say, so I will try to make it illegal by claiming it offends someone who is not me. What you said is racist/classist/sexist even if it had nothing to do with race, class or sex/gender. What you said somehow is the equivalent of rape or Nazism, because I disagree.

[–]Silverstarter 79ポイント80ポイント  (33子コメント)

Why is this shit being upvoted?

Progressives use the first amendment right? So your trying to shame them for it?

Lol your the worst kind of libertarian a GOP in our clothing. GTFO of this sub.

[–]haroldp 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

What's weird is that the comments are overwhelmingly railing on the OP, and the post is still getting upvoted. How does this happen?

[–]AhWarlin 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think it comes from people who just upvote from the front page, or the subreddit page, just by looking at the content and then voting. I know I'm much more likely to hit the comment section of something I'm not sure of (for more information) or something I disagree with (to see if the hivemind really thinks this way). If its something I like, I don't bother checking the comments.

[–]Moruitelda 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think it comes from people who just upvote from the front page

How'd it get to the front page?

[–]AhWarlin 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I actually found this on /all, but my comment even applies to a front page of a specific subreddit.

I feel like there is a word more applicable than "front page", but I couldn't think of it.

[–]that_nagger_guy 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

So your trying to shame them for it?

Yeah when people are trying to get people fired for an opinion they don't share, they are cunts and should be shamed for it.

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican 0ポイント1ポイント  (14子コメント)

If I don't think everyone I disagree with should be fired from their jobs, I am a GOP in libertarian clothing? Do you really believe that?

[–]Silverstarter 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

No. I think if you don't like people using their first amendment right your not a libertarian.

Your upset that the majority of issues are against concervitives? Maybe they shouldn't be bigots I don't know what to tell you.

[–]BigTimStrangeLeft Libertarian 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No. I think if you don't like people using their first amendment right your not a libertarian.

You're being obtuse.

When you go from stating "I don't like your opinion" to "I don't like your opinion and you need to be punished for expressing it" and start a witchhunt against that person, you're using your freedom to take freedom away from another.

[–]pewpewlasors 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

I want to spout racist shit, without being fired from my job

  • OP

[–]JustZisGuyCthulhu 2016, why vote for the lesser evil? 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

As long as you're not talking about government censorship in the second bit, those two positions are wholly compatible and consistent. Freedom of speech does not ensure freedom from the social consequences of said speech.

[–]williamsgodfrey 5ポイント6ポイント  (19子コメント)

Yawn. This is hilarious.

Free speech is still alive and well. What OP is crying about here is being held personally responsible and or called out when you say something stupid.

[–]parkoworkVote for Nobody 0ポイント1ポイント  (17子コメント)

What you call personal responsibility and being called out, I call intolerance.

[–]sexymcluvin 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

So you think its intolerant to to call someone out on them using there words to hurt others in someway because words hurt and do damage?

Language is a powerful tool.

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

You can call someone out without calling for their resignation. Imagine how awful if we called each other's boss every time someone disagreed at a bar or sports game.

[–]sexymcluvin 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think you're fishing a little too much and arguing a slippery slope. Getting called out in my example from your scenario most likely not going to happen.

Speech is an actions and actions can have consequences. Its protected from the State stepping in telling you what you can and cannot say and penalizing you for it, but that does not include the private sector or public opinion. Just because there is free speech does not mean you get to say whatever you like without fear of repercussion. Now I don't know who you are. But tell me if I, as a white guy, called some black guys the n-word, would not get my ass beat as a result. Its speech. I can say it. I can't get arrested for saying it. But that doesn't mean there won't be consequences.

[–]Scaliwagroadbuilding investor 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

And not tolerating silly ideas is a good thing, it's just utterly stupid to accept and tolerate everything, you cannot live a second that way and survive.

Otherwise prove me wrong and try to tolerate and accept the idea of drinking poison over dinner and tell me how it goes. ;-)

[–]parkoworkVote for Nobody 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I tolerate your idea of drinking poison at dinner.

I'm not going to do it, but hey, it's your idea... knock yourself out.

[–]Scaliwagroadbuilding investor -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

So you're intolerant of my request for you to accept it, got it.

Case in question, intolerance can be a good thing.

[–]parkoworkVote for Nobody 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am tolerant of your idea to drink poison, I do not accept it as something I would do. I certainly am not pro-active in making sure that everyone knows you are bat-shit insane to suggest it either.

See the difference?

[–]Scaliwagroadbuilding investor 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

making sure that everyone knows you are bat-shit insane to suggest it either.

Oh so you see no problem of me teaching it to your kids, then. That's nice. :-)

[–]parkoworkVote for Nobody 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're going to teach my kids to drink poison at dinner?

I mean, you realize how ridiculous you sound about this right?

If you have to jump through these hyperbolic hypotheticals to prove your point, maybe your point isn't that solid?

[–]Pongjammer89 33ポイント34ポイント  (7子コメント)

Someone's a little angry that not everyone agrees with him.

[–]OneYearSteakDay 17ポイント18ポイント  (6子コメント)

"I don't agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it... except Progressives who want to publicly express their opinion, vote with their dollars, or inform someone's boss of a hostile environment. Fuck those guys."

It feels like the entire Conservative/Libertarian movement has fallen into "Stop being mean to me you guys, why are you oppressing me!?" this past week.

[–]H-12apts 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's as if "the PC police" have been revealed as something less harmful than "the police" and that fact hasn't caught up to Republicans yet.

[–]chiguyNon-labelist 26ポイント27ポイント  (28子コメント)

Yes, I definitely approve of public shaming of people who are racist and homophobic. It's the beauty of the free market.

[–]trytoinjuremerights are a social fabrication -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

I would shame fat people...

thanks a lot Ellen Pao...

[–]TEmpTomUnited Federation of Planets 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

You're free to shame whoever the hell you like. Just as a private organization is free to ban you from their forums.

[–]TooSmalley 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like you are forgetting the amount of riots and street fights people use to get into over ideals.

[–]ZapPowerzEthical Hedonist 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

When has there ever been a time in human history this scenario hasn't existed?

Shit, the guy that came up with germ theory and recommended doctors wash their hands to prevent spread of disease was ridiculed, thrown in a nut house and beaten to death by the guards.

[–]BubblingMonkey 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Example: I disagree with Nazi flags flying and I hate everything about them, but they have the right to fly it and I will defend their right to do it. If we want to defend true freedom of speech, we need to defend all forms. Something these "human rights activists" we see on TV going ape shit don't understand. They expect to have their opinion heard and protected, but God forbid the opposing side says anything, right?

[–]BloodyFreezeClassical Liberalist 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

As a Classical Liberal, I disagree with your point of view of all Progressivism. Every party has individuals that shame others for their different views in some way, shape or form. It's self accountability that we should focus on when someone utilizes a specific approach to get their message, that a GROUP of people share, across. We should not be blaming the group for an individual's incorrect approach.

[–]youngseaguy 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

And shame is a pretty central part of a functioning human society. It always has been. I don't see a lot of people on this thread saying that you should be able to be a Neo-Nazi or member of the KKK and not face any shame or consequences. This is the mechanism by which societies progress.

And it isn't like Conservatives don't do the same thing, they just done have the public on their side on this one. But when they did, they did things like making the Dixie Chicks temporarily unmarketable. I don't think the Neo-Cons behind that are in any way "progressives."

[–]darthhayeksouth park republican 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You would think progressives would take that example and learn some empathy from it. "Holy shit, what happened to the Dixie Chix was awful!". Not, "Hey, that strategy was really clever, we should do that too!".

[–]BlackTeaLeaves 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Whose rights were taken away here?

[–]nognus 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those nuts don't get to claim the label of progressive. They are just fringe loony toons like we've always had fringe loony toons. Progressives have a much longer history and will still be around long after these nuts are no longer the center of attention.

[–]droob_rulz 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That offends me. Die you gravy sucking pig!

[–]Bayou_wulf 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's why I am a libertarian. Most progressives are stateists. All I want to be is left alone to find my own happiness in our progressively less free land. And I want you to be able to as well.

[–]thatoneguysRational Centrism 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

To be fair, many conservatives act the same way, but the point remains the same.

I have some liberatarian tendencies, along with some progressive tendencies. But I respect free speech to the utmost, even when I am personally offended.

[–]otherguy21 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

What everyone seems to be focused on is OP's statement as defending the rights of racists, etc.

If all proggies did was shame klansmen, no one would complain about SJW's. But what proggies do is claim that anyone an angstrom to the right of the NYT editorial board is a crypto-klansmen, and then shame them with whatever weapons they have to hand.

This may be legal. It's still creepy, intolerant, and contrary to the functioning of a free and diverse society. Plus, it's precisely what the progs were screaming to the heavens about 50-60 years ago.

[–]Kinglink 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why do I have to understand other people when I can shout him down and get them removed from where I am?

[–]skraptastic 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Freedom of speech is the freedom to say anything you want without prosecution by the state.

Freedom of speech doesn't allow you to be an asshat without consequences.

[–]TheGreatRoh 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Progressivism: I disapprove what you say and will try to lobby against it to make it illegal*

FTFY

[–]qp0nnaturalist 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The 'campaigning to get people fired' phenomenon is a relatively new and peculiar one, because often it neither uses government force nor is it purely a result of market forces... just peer pressure & fear of potential market consequences. Clearly its a symptom of social media, but I have a hunch we will begin to see a trend of 'pushback' soon; companies taking a stand for employees & refusing to bow to public pressure.

There was an example of it just yesterday; Bob Costas made an offensive remark about a baseball player, people flipped out, and he apologized... but he went out of his way to emphasize that social media pressure had nothing to do with that decision, and they can basically go fuck themselves.

[–]youngseaguy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there will be a pushback about minor or excusable incidents, as well as comments taken out of context. I think there already has been. But I think truly offensive people will continue to have problems--especially where they are dependent on advertisers or work for companies with decent reputations. To some extent that has always been the case.

[–]ashishduh1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Upvoted because it makes libertarians look like they hate the free market.

[–]Infinitopolis 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

There are 2 types of socially liberal Progressives: the SJWs who think they can dictate behavior because they are loudest, and the libertarian leaning Dems who see the cluster F that the former are creating.

There is no happy place for blue progressives who see strong gun rights as progressive as long as preventative mental health care is easily available and stigma free. We want to spend less but thrive more and we know that we have the tech to do it.

Instead of actually being progressive (providing an ever more efficient, smaller, and greater participation popular government), the "progressives" who would try and change your private behavior by force are not progressive at all.

I would argue that a Libertarian who supports pro-life, mandatory prayer in school type stuff is of similar caliber.

[–]DamnHell 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with you on half of your last statement, but I think pro-life is a different conversation than mandatory prayer. A Libertarian can be logically consistent on abortion, even if the majority of Libertarians take a different position on the issue.

[–]Infinitopolis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I will concede your point on being pro-life if the Libertarian believes in it as a core societal value (even though I disagree).

The important thing isn't that everyone agrees, it's that you keep the message clear without too many crack head spin offs. Libertarianism is as American as apple pie until idiots make it sound socially conservative.

[–]HippyHell 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know if I would defend that right to the death....I mean it's a nice sentiment and all.....but probably not. Would I sign a petition or possibly march somewhere to yell at some politician on your behalf? Totally. But if that politician started executing people in the audience I'd probably call it quits.

[–]anonymousPrivileged 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right, time to get my town together to raise a Swastika flag and a commemorative statue of Hitler at my town Hall. If anyone objects, they're the monsters against free speech!

[–]caboose73 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I kind of feel like everyone does the second one. Just saying

[–]bloodcontraVote for Nobody 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

fph

[–]lorax3 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

At first I thought this was posted in /r/politics and was impressed. I should have known better.

[–]cortex112 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Love and Tolerance TM by liberal.

*terms and conditions apply. All rights reserved.

[–]godlesspinko 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, white words on a black background, that's some serious authority!

Too bad the words don't mean jack shit and the author has no comprehension of what he's gibbering about, otherwise, this would be pretty impressive.

[–]cjet79 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Three positions:

  1. Government imposing negative consequences for people expressing unpopular opinions.

  2. Private parties imposing negative consequences for people expressing unpopular opinions.

  3. No one imposing negative consequences for people expressing unpopular opinions.

I think most Americans don't want option 1. Most Americans want option 2 for opinions they don't like, and want option 3 for unpopular opinions that they themselves hold. The choice between option 2 and 3 doesn't have much to do with libertarianism. But personally I would prefer to live in a society that rarely ever exercises option 1 or 2.

I think all libertarians should be extremely wary of people that exercise option 2, because we all hold political opinions that are unpopular. Do you honestly want to live in a society where you can get fired for being libertarian? Will you really be comforted by the fact that it was a bunch of people on twitter calling for you to get fired, rather than a bunch of voters in a booth?

TL;DR: Speech restrictions are a slippery slope, whether they come from government or private actors. And the ideological weapons you wield against your enemies one day may be wielded against you the next day.

[–]mickloud 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think all libertarians should be extremely wary of people that exercise option 2, because we all hold political opinions that are unpopular. Do you honestly want to live in a society where you can get fired for being libertarian? Will you really be comforted by the fact that it was a bunch of people on twitter calling for you to get fired, rather than a bunch of voters in a booth?

This.

The line between appearing to be an outright racist/bigot (and getting doxed), and having a conflicting or misunderstood political ideology has become increasingly blurred, especially with the disinformation about libertarianism that is put out there by both sides.

The idiots who eat up that nonsense happen to be the loudest vocal minority with the biggest internet attack mobs, and they all operate under the assumption that government is the solution. That's a pretty serious problem when your platform revolves around diminishing or removing the power from the very people who would like to see you silenced, and who posses the illegitimate authority covert power to do so.

How this flies over this sub's head, I'm not sure. It's about crushing dissidence every step of the way. Maybe this is a discussion more for conspiracy or ancap.

[–]sayas05 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

Caution: A bit of a wall of text.

The social media warriors do create a form of covert censorship.

I understand that anything outside of government regulation of speech should not be forbidden, but we do need to ask ourselves if we will be a better society because of our society's use of social media outrage.

In 2012 a headline writer at ESPN used the term "Chink in the Armor" to describe Jeremy Lin's, (an American of Taiwanese decent) first poor game after his historic string of high-scoring games.

The term, used to indicate there was finally a weakness in Lin's play, caused an outrage because it might have indicated that ESPN was racially slurring Lin's ancestry. Did it? Americans didn't care. The fact that it MIGHT have been insensitive was enough to call for heads.

Now, despite his apology, and the fact that the editor used a common term to indicate someone's weakness finally displayed without thinking of a possible negative connotation because he would never refer to Lin with any slur, it was not enough for Americans, (who only saw screenshots of the headline since it was only up for 20ish minutes in the middle of the night- but they shared the screenshot so we can all be offended together!), and the editor was fired.

That is not making the world a better place.

Of course, that is a single example, but our social activism is doing enough good that non-racists occasionally swept into the potential boycott machine are acceptable collateral damage! Maybe.

But to me the career of a single editor at ESPN is not as big a deal as the fact that the potential ramifications of ideas is enough to silence any potentially constructive discussion.

There are problems in our society. It will occasionally hurt some feelings to fix them so we can't even discuss the existence of the problem.

A mother posts a picture onto her facebook/twitter/instagram or whatever showing her young children and her six-pack and asks, "What's your excuse?"

Now, America has a problem with obesity. It will increase the cost of healthcare burden and will literally kill us early. That mother was not trying to limit the size of a coke you can buy at the gas station, but asking everyone to be the best version of themselves.

Nope. She was fat-shaming! I'm sorry, we have a problem with obesity and the solution isn't a mandate of healthier school lunches, but the individual decision to better oneself. America attacked a mother for her attempt to help them.

Look, do what you have to do. Go downvote opinions on reddit you disagree with. Get the Dukes of Hazzard taken off the air in case someone sees the Confederate battle flag on car called the General Lee. Spend time seeking out things that might offend someone and eradicate not only the offense, but the offender.

I'm sure it will actually make the world a better place.

[EDIT: Ok, think about why you're downvoting me. Seriously, if you believe that my comment is no bringing anything to the discussion that's ok - that is what the downvote is for. If it makes you feel uncomfortable about your use of your social media accounts, then explain why you believe the world is improving by us boiling complex human beings that we don't know into easily categorized stereotypes. And once these strangers are a caricature instead of a person it is easy to see, and want, them fired.

I am not advocating a society that accepts racism. I don't believe that opinions should not carry consequences, but I do believe we're too quick to judge strangers with incomplete facts. I do believe we'd be better off focusing our energies on improving ourselves instead of punishing strangers over something that might offend someone. And I don't really understand the culture of seeking things to be offended over.]

[–]tayto 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Regarding the Lin incident, I can completely see how the editor's superiors believe that's an offense worth a job loss. The racial tone had been highly talked about in the couple of weeks leading to the incident. If the editor is that tone deaf to miss this issue, then do you really have a good person in the job? When you did a big part of your job poorly, you should be fired.

I think the Rockets' twitter guy didn't cross a line, but obviously the Rockets disagree.

[–]sayas05 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

The Lin headline is now several years old and I'm going off of memory. But unless the guy was on incredibly thin ice because of past behavior there should have been an apology and a promise to be more cautious. Firing a guy? Seems extreme if it was not an intentional slur.

The Rocket's twitter dead horse? Yeah, that's the best example of a situation the organization should simply say, "Lighten up people."

[–]tayto 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Seems extreme if it was not an intentional slur.

I think you and I just have a slight disagreement here. If your job depends on proper communication, you need to be aware of the potential misunderstanding of the word "chink," and how loaded a term it was at the time. Failure to do that was a fireable offense in my opinion.

[–]sayas05 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

[A gracious Lin, who led the Knicks to another dazzling hardwood victory Sunday, gave Federico and Bretos the benefit of the doubt.

"They've apologized, and so from my end, I don't care anymore," Lin said. "You have to learn to forgive, and I don't even think that was intentional."](http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/jeremy-lin-slur-honest-mistake-fired-espn-editor-anthony-federico-claims-article-1.1025566)

Sure, I understand why he lost his job. That's the world we live in. Disney, through ABC, through ESPN, has to protect all their brands from even the hint of racism. And I do think journalism schools could study this whole incident and its fallout as an example of how to be extra careful with diction.

I'm glad the editor apologized to Lin (even unintentional offenses can still sting) - but this should have been something between ESPN, their editor, and Jeremy Lin. If the three of them can figure it out then who are we to get offended and involved for Lin? Especially after he forgave?

[–]tayto 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So we seem to disagree on why he was fired. You are saying he was fired because people got offended. I believe the fact that he offended people in this particular way means he is bad at his job. Thus, he was fired for being a poor editor.

[–]rb_tech 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. He wasn't fired for the incident itself so much as being a careless boob and letting the incident happen. Perfectly reasonable firing.

[–]StoneHuddle -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

It should just say modern day liberalism instead of progressivism

[–]chaprich84 -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your an idiot if you believe this is accurate.