O! This Libertarian Movement of Ours… ‘Toids, Layabouts, Freaks…

Born in Austin, Texas and raised in the Leander, Texas hill country, the native-born Augustinian James Redford is a young born again Christian who was converted from atheism by a direct revelation from Jesus Christ. He is a scientific rationalist who considers that the Omega Point (i.e., the physicists’ technical term for God) is an unavoidable result of the known laws of physics. His personal website can be found here: http://geocities.com/vonchloride

Jelly head–slang for junkie, drug head, stoner. I guess the term implies that you do so many terms it turns the brain to sludge, jelly.

I’m glad that some of my teachings have had an effect on you. Ergo, your somewhat recent statement of “an ought from an ought.” (Your September 8, 2006 11:19 AM reply under “How We Come to Own Ourselves.”)

One remarkable thing about your rights argument is that it seems to totally by-pass the is/ought dichotomy. Rather than simply derive an “ought” from an “is” (which alone is impossible), it derives an “ought” from an “ought”: an “ought” which any objector to libertarian punishment necessarily already holds.

Below is contained the text of the first contact that N. Stephan
Kinsella initiated with me. Below is my reply to him where I used the
phrase "an ought from an ought" to describe what it is that his
estoppel rights argument achieves. But keep in mind that the concept
of deriving "an ought from an ought" is not actually expressed in his
writings of this period, and it would only be on September 8, 2006
that N. Stephan Kinsella would first express this concept and the
phrase (after further correspondence with me, which he again
initiated, in September 2004 where I again used the phrase). (See his
September 8, 2006 11:19 AM reply under "How We Come to Own
Ourselves," http://blog.mises.org/archives/005577.asp .)

That is to say, even though Stephan Kinsella's estoppel rights
argument derives "an ought from an ought," he did not put it in those
terms or explicity express the concept of it until September 8, 2006,
long after he had had read my email replies to him using the phrase
and its explicit concept, of which he initiated all these contacts
with me from his readings of my usenet postings and Anti-State.com
postings where I repeatedly used the phrase. Nor by saying that am I
crediting him with being the first to achieve deriving "an ought from
an ought," since Hoppe's argumentation ethics is along similar lines
to Kinsella's estoppel rights argument.

Moreover, his recent attempts (in November 2006) to pretend as if my
public postings didn't catch his attention further demonstrates how
disingenuous he is being, as this correspondence which he initiated
on both occations (in 2000 and 2004) shows that he most certainly did
take notice of my public writings on this matter, and was moved
enough by my public postings to initiate contact with me on two
separate occations.

####################

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2000 20:03:28 PST
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:03:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "Count Lithium von Chloride" <vonchloride@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Estoppel defense
To: "Stephan Kinsella" <kinsella@swbell.net>
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Dear N. Stephan Kinsella,

I'm sorry that I haven't replied sooner to your
inquiry. No umbrage was intended; it has simply been
awhile since I've checked my email.

Thank you for taking notice of my usenet posts
promoting and defending your estoppel rights argument.
This argument, along with Rothbard's praxeological
critique of all logical alternatives to a state of
full human self-ownership and first-use first-own
original acquisition of exogenous property, puts
hard-core libertarianism on unassailable ground.

One remarkable thing about your rights argument is
that it seems to totally by-pass the is/ought
dichotomy. Rather than simply derive an "ought" from
an "is" (which alone is impossible), it derives an
"ought" from an "ought": an "ought" which any objector
to libertarian punishment necessarily already holds.

The estoppel rights argument is very profound and
importaint. Never forget that the future of
civilization itself is at stake. No fallacies are ever
more widespread and grave than economic and political
ones: the conseqences of which are measured in human
carnage and bondage. It is for this reason that
Rothbard's greatness is immeasurable: for he has
created and left to us the intellectual weapons
necessary in which to slay the wreckers of
civilization.

In answer to your question: I haven't as yet met your
acquaintence. By ASC I assume you refer to the
Austrian Scholars Conference? I haven't been to one,
although I would like to some day.

Keep up the good work in elaborating and extrapolating
the Rothbardian model in all its untarnished, radical
glory! Rothbard would be proud. Thank you.

--- Stephan Kinsella  wrote:
> Count, thanks for defending estoppel so vigorously
> on the various forums.  I just saw some of the
> exchange from a few months ago, while perusing
> deja.com.  Do I happen to know you from the ASC or
> elsewhere?
>
> Best, Stephan Kinsella

=====
Æü©®£¿¢æ
§ÄåÇÏÒÑØýÞ
½ª¾¼³¤µ

--Count Lithium von Chloride
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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####################

Below is the second time that I use the phrase "an ought from an
ought" in email correspondence with Stephan Kinsella which he
initiated via a message to me on the Anti-State.com Messenger on
August 07, 2002, 11:06:32 am.

####################

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Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:49:02 PDT
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Count Lithium von Chloride" <vonchloride@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: anarchist
To: "Stephan Kinsella" <Stephan@KinsellaLaw.com>
In-Reply-To: <003501c4983c$5effd220$a3301942@KinsellaLaw>
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--- Stephan Kinsella  wrote:

> What is your own formulation...? 

Below is my logical derivation of the Nonaggression
Principle:

1.) It is irrational and illogical to expect others to
treat you better than you are willing to treat others.
This is simply the principle of the Golden Rule, and
the Golden Rule as a purely political ethic is
completely congruent with the libertarian
Nonaggression Principle, i.e., that no person or group
of people may initiate the use of force against
another, or threaten to initiate force against
another. Everyone, by definition, objects to others
aggressing against what they regard as their own
property. If such were not the case then, by
definition, such action would not be an aggression but
a voluntary action. But ultimately all just property
titles can be traced back by way of voluntary
transactions (which would thus be consistent with the
Golden Rule) to the homesteading of unused resources;
or (2) in the case in which such resources were
expropriated from a just owner and the just owner or
his heir(s) can no longer be identified or are
deceased, where the first nonaggressor possesses the
resource (which can then be considered another form of
homesteading). Thus, for anyone to come into
possession of property which either was not
homesteaded by themselves or which was not obtained by
a voluntary transaction would thereby be violating the
Golden Rule, for to do so would mean that they are
obtaining a good by involuntary means from another who
can trace their possession of the resource either to
direct homesteading or through voluntary transactions
leading back to homesteading (i.e., of either of the
two types given above). Yet, by definition, this
aggressor would not want others to take his property
against his will which he had come into possession of
by voluntary means--and surely everyone possesses such
property, even if it is just their own body.

2.) Also, one cannot deny the principle of rightful
self-ownership without committing a performative
contradiction. For one must, at the very least,
presuppose one's own rightful self-ownership in order
to be able to argue against the principle. As it may
well be asked: How can one give such an argument if
one does not even believe onself to be the sole
rightful owner of one's very own body (and vocal
chords)? Thus, it is for this reason that the
principle of rightful self-ownership rises to the
level of an inescapable axiom--i.e., that which cannot
be denied without necessitating its use in the denial.
Thus also, it could never be argued that argument is
impossible without thereby committing a performative
contradiction. As well, this logically means that the
principle of rightful self-ownership is only valid as
a per se universal human principle. For A cannot
coherently argue that only he is a proper natural
self-owner whereas others are not. For then B could
"steal" A's argument and use it against him--i.e., if
it is valid for A then it must be valid for B as well.
For as Abraham Lincoln pointed out (if only it had
been that Lincoln himself had bothered to follow the
logic of his below argument!): 

"If A. can prove, however conclusively, that he may,
of right, enslave B.--why may not B. snatch the same
argument, and prove equally, that he may enslave A?-- 

"You say A. is white, and B. is black. It is color,
then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the
darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be slave
to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than
your own. 

"You do not mean color exactly? You mean the whites
are intellectually the superiors of the blacks, and,
therefore have the right to enslave them? Take care
again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first
man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own. 

"But, say you, it is a question of interest; and, if
you can make it your interest; you have the right to
enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his
interest, he has the right to enslave you." (Abraham
Lincoln, Fragments on Slavery, c. April 1, 1854)

In addition we would not then have a universal ethic
for mankind as such, but instead an arbitrary
ethic--i.e., we would have to posit an unnecessary and
arbitrary additional ethical rationale as to why
rightful self-ownership is not universalizable, and
would thus be violating Ockham's Razor.

It is for this reason and others that the libertarian
concept of self-ownership is apodictically true. Nor,
it should be mentioned in passing, does it derive an
"ought" from an "is"--rather, it derives an "ought"
from an "ought": an "ought" everyone must necessarily
presuppose in order to even begin to deny it.

2b.) This same logical principle also applies to
external property (i.e., external from one's body).
Since all virgin land had to be at some point
homesteaded by a first user, one cannot coherently
argue against the properness of this principle for
then the human race could not even exist (and hence
the arguer could not even exist). Thus, to argue
against the homesteading principle would be to
necessarily argue against one's own existence, but the
very act of arguing presupposes one's own right to
argue and hence right to exist (as one cannot argue
without existing). Thus, one arguing against the
homsteading principle would be committing a
performative contradiction.

It is for this reason and others that the libertarian
concept of righful ownership of homesteaded resources
is also apodictically true. Nor, it should also be
mentioned in passing, does it derive an "ought" from
an "is"--rather, it derives an "ought" from an
"ought": an "ought" everyone must necessarily
presuppose in order to even begin to deny it.

> Jelly head--slang for junkie, drug head, stoner. I
> guess the term implies
> that you do so many terms it turns the brain to
> sludge, jelly.

Well, my brain is still quite intact and functioning
on an I.Q. level higher than almost all people.

> Thanks for the links but I am totally uninterested
> in doing drugs or in New
> age or mystical stuff, especialy drugs, esp. as I
> have a job, and now, a
> family. I see absolutely no merit in centering one's
> life around this stuff
> at all, but of course there are many ways to live a
> life.

Well, what you don't know, you don't know--otherwise
you would know it. But I would rather know than not
know.

Nor was I attempting to get you to so-called "turn on,
tune in, drop out." Remember, you're the one that
asked me about these things, and I merely answered
your questions honestly.

Take care, Mr. Kinsella.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail" target=_blank
>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

####################

Below is Stephan Kinsella's reply to my above email (which itself was
a reply to a query he made of me, from contact that he initiated with
me). I failed to respond to Stephan Kinsella's below email, which
ended this set of correspondence.

####################

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From: "Stephan Kinsella" <Stephan@KinsellaLaw.com>
To: "'Count Lithium von Chloride'" <vonchloride@yahoo.com>
Subject: baby ownership
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:31:11 -0500
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interesting, and I think we have a lot of agreements (re rights--and
I
was
of course not saying your brain is jelly, just explaining the slang).
Although, I am not quite sure what relevance it is what we
*expect*--i.e.,
predict--others will do. What possible relevance is our prediction of
others' behavior for a normative proposition or theory?

Anyway-- let me ask you this. It seems to me that the bottom line is
that
when two or more people have a conflict over a given scarce resource,
then
to the extent these people are interested in rightness, justice,
goodness--i.e., the fair or just solution-- then (and BTW here, they
have
all already adopted the first ought, so you are right, it is an ought
from
an ought) -- it is obvious that the only solution, as a general
matter,
is
he who has better title, among these claimants, should be recognized
as
its
owner. And it seems also obvious that the better claim is the one
with
an
objective link and/or earlier link to the property. And clearly, this
means
the first possessor, the one who homesteaded a previously unused or
unowned
thing.

I would guess you and I roughly agree so far.

(although in the case where not all of them want a just solution--
i.e.,
at
least one of them does not care if his actions are justified--then he
is
from the point of view of the others, like an animal; just a technical
problem to be dealt with).

In the case of the scarce resource of the body, it seems somewhat
different.
As I have mentioned in some of my previous writing on contract law and
inalienability.  Now I grant you, as between a stranger and myself, I
have a
stronger claim to my body: I have been using it since I existed. He
is
a
latecomer.

But what about your parents. I mean your body was not sitting around
unused
before you homesteaded it. Rather, it was matter part of your mom's
body
that gradually became "you". So in a sense, at some point, the mom
(and
maybe the dad) were the owners of the physical stuff that later
became
stuff
in your body. So the question is, if you are a self-owner, that means
that
at some point the pieces of matter in your foetal body that were
previously
owned by your mother, come to be owned by the fetus/baby. Whenever
this
takes place (conception; quickening; birth; 2 years old, does not
matter;
it's some point), the question is: why does the mother lose
ownership?
Why
is it transferred to you? After all as libertarians we believe you
lose
ownership of something only by voluntarily giving it away, or as some
kind
of punishment or restitution in response to a voluntary criminal act. 

What in your opinion is the reason why ownership of the baby-stuff is
lost
by the mom and transferred to the baby? I can see a few arguments but
they
are not as clear as with alienable (unowned) property. And an
alternative
view is that the title is NOT lost: that parents DO own their kids;
it
just
happens that most parents are decent enough to manumit them.

What say you, Count?

-----Original Message-----
From: Count Lithium von Chloride [mailto:vonchloride@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 5:49 PM
To: Stephan Kinsella
Subject: RE: anarchist

--- Stephan Kinsella  wrote:

> What is your own formulation...?

Below is my logical derivation of the Nonaggression
Principle:

1.) It is irrational and illogical to expect others to
treat you better than you are willing to treat others.
This is simply the principle of the Golden Rule, and
the Golden Rule as a purely political ethic is
completely congruent with the libertarian
Nonaggression Principle, i.e., that no person or group
of people may initiate the use of force against
another, or threaten to initiate force against
another. Everyone, by definition, objects to others
aggressing against what they regard as their own
property. If such were not the case then, by
definition, such action would not be an aggression but
a voluntary action. But ultimately all just property
titles can be traced back by way of voluntary
transactions (which would thus be consistent with the
Golden Rule) to the homesteading of unused resources;
or (2) in the case in which such resources were
expropriated from a just owner and the just owner or
his heir(s) can no longer be identified or are
deceased, where the first nonaggressor possesses the
resource (which can then be considered another form of homesteading).
Thus,
for anyone to come into possession of property which either was not
homesteaded by themselves or which was not obtained by a voluntary
transaction would thereby be violating the Golden Rule, for to do so
would
mean that they are obtaining a good by involuntary means from another
who
can trace their possession of the resource either to direct
homesteading or
through voluntary transactions leading back to homesteading (i.e., of
either
of the two types given above). Yet, by definition, this aggressor
would
not
want others to take his property against his will which he had come
into
possession of by voluntary means--and surely everyone possesses such
property, even if it is just their own body.

2.) Also, one cannot deny the principle of rightful self-ownership
without
committing a performative contradiction. For one must, at the very
least,
presuppose one's own rightful self-ownership in order to be able to
argue
against the principle. As it may well be asked: How can one give such
an
argument if one does not even believe onself to be the sole rightful
owner
of one's very own body (and vocal chords)? Thus, it is for this
reason
that
the principle of rightful self-ownership rises to the level of an
inescapable axiom--i.e., that which cannot be denied without
necessitating
its use in the denial. Thus also, it could never be argued that
argument is
impossible without thereby committing a performative contradiction.
As
well,
this logically means that the principle of rightful self-ownership is
only
valid as a per se universal human principle. For A cannot coherently
argue
that only he is a proper natural self-owner whereas others are not.
For
then
B could "steal" A's argument and use it against him--i.e., if it is
valid
for A then it must be valid for B as well. For as Abraham Lincoln
pointed
out (if only it had been that Lincoln himself had bothered to follow
the
logic of his below argument!): 

"If A. can prove, however conclusively, that he may,
of right, enslave B.--why may not B. snatch the same
argument, and prove equally, that he may enslave A?-- 

"You say A. is white, and B. is black. It is color,
then; the lighter, having the right to enslave the
darker? Take care. By this rule, you are to be slave
to the first man you meet, with a fairer skin than
your own. 

"You do not mean color exactly? You mean the whites
are intellectually the superiors of the blacks, and,
therefore have the right to enslave them? Take care
again. By this rule, you are to be slave to the first
man you meet, with an intellect superior to your own. 

"But, say you, it is a question of interest; and, if
you can make it your interest; you have the right to
enslave another. Very well. And if he can make it his
interest, he has the right to enslave you." (Abraham
Lincoln, Fragments on Slavery, c. April 1, 1854)

In addition we would not then have a universal ethic
for mankind as such, but instead an arbitrary
ethic--i.e., we would have to posit an unnecessary and arbitrary
additional
ethical rationale as to why rightful self-ownership is not
universalizable,
and would thus be violating Ockham's Razor.

It is for this reason and others that the libertarian
concept of self-ownership is apodictically true. Nor,
it should be mentioned in passing, does it derive an
"ought" from an "is"--rather, it derives an "ought"
from an "ought": an "ought" everyone must necessarily presuppose in
order to
even begin to deny it.

2b.) This same logical principle also applies to
external property (i.e., external from one's body).
Since all virgin land had to be at some point
homesteaded by a first user, one cannot coherently
argue against the properness of this principle for
then the human race could not even exist (and hence
the arguer could not even exist). Thus, to argue
against the homesteading principle would be to
necessarily argue against one's own existence, but the
very act of arguing presupposes one's own right to
argue and hence right to exist (as one cannot argue
without existing). Thus, one arguing against the
homsteading principle would be committing a
performative contradiction.

It is for this reason and others that the libertarian
concept of righful ownership of homesteaded resources
is also apodictically true. Nor, it should also be
mentioned in passing, does it derive an "ought" from
an "is"--rather, it derives an "ought" from an
"ought": an "ought" everyone must necessarily
presuppose in order to even begin to deny it.

> Jelly head--slang for junkie, drug head, stoner. I
> guess the term implies
> that you do so many terms it turns the brain to
> sludge, jelly.

Well, my brain is still quite intact and functioning
on an I.Q. level higher than almost all people.

> Thanks for the links but I am totally uninterested
> in doing drugs or in New
> age or mystical stuff, especialy drugs, esp. as I
> have a job, and now, a
> family. I see absolutely no merit in centering one's
> life around this stuff
> at all, but of course there are many ways to live a
> life.

Well, what you don't know, you don't know--otherwise
you would know it. But I would rather know than not
know.

Nor was I attempting to get you to so-called "turn on,
tune in, drop out." Remember, you're the one that
asked me about these things, and I merely answered
your questions honestly.

Take care, Mr. Kinsella.

1. Update: see my posts Natural, Positive Law, Tax Evasion, Rituals and Incantations; Rothbard on Conspiratoids; A Rant Against 9-11 Truther Stupidity. []