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Why are you against gamergate? (self.AgainstGamerGate)

GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG が 投稿

I've been looking around here and I can't find a clear explination. I understand a large amnount of Gamergate opposition have that stance because they are opposed to the harrasment of online female gave devs and femminists.

While I think I would be completely fucking stupid to claim that non of those are by gamergate supporters - I believe harrasment/doxxing of women isn't a core principle of gamergate. If you take any group of people (Gamergaters, anti-gamergaters, gardeners, police officers, muslims, christians, teachers, whites, blacks etc.) you will find good people and bad people. It's generally a not good idea to not let the bad elements of a group decide your view of the entire group.

I support gamergate, because as far as I can see it is a movement that is based around improving gaming journalisms ethical standards. KiA isn't full of "please harrass people x" posts, but posts that focus on legitimate issues in gaming.

My question is: Why are you against gamergate?

Thank you for any responses

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[–]NefariousBananaTurned Heel on Ghazi [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

I posted this in another thread, and it also explains my new flair.

Gamergate, regardless of which side you're on, is nothing but opportunistic ego stroking for identity politics in video games in which people are more than willing to inadvertently trample on marginalized groups so long as it's "for the cause". This us and them mentality, which excuses some pretty heinous shit, is why I left Ghazi and have talked shit about them multiple times. Everyone is obsessed with "winning" and you can tell, especially with gamergate's militaristic rhetoric from the beginning. You can say I'm falling for the golden mean fallacy all you want, but nobody's hands are clean.

Tl;Dr it's political opportunism. Milo didn't give a shit about video games before this, and neither did CHS or thunderf00t. It's all posturing to make money by pandering to a young and impressionable neoreactionary audience. It's one of the most annoying culture wars of this generation.

[–]coherentsheafPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Right on Milo and CHS, very wrong on Thunderf00t. He was even in the competitive scene.

pandering to a young and impressionable neoreactionary audience

I am laughing my ass off while reading this. Do you know what neoreactionary means?

[–]NefariousBananaTurned Heel on Ghazi [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Which competitive scene was he in? That was one I wasn't completely sure on (all I remember is when he said Halo was a PlayStation game), so a correction would help.

Neo reactionary, Dark Enlightenment, alt-right. Take your pick.

[–]coherentsheafPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I dont have all the videos at hand and dont want to watch all them all again. Unless he completely lied he showed some pretty high skill footage (based on movement speed and displayed precision) from some older game and he talked about his experience in his Clan. In an interview with Ray Comfort he also said that his name was his username from online gaming.

Neo reactionary, Dark Enlightenment, alt-right. Take your pick.

OMG that is completely stupid. Neoreactionary is a faschist fringe movement. Gamergate values are more close to left wing liberalism than any other ideology. If you beleive otherwise you ahve never read neoreactionaries like MoldBUG etcetera, their views and philosophy are radicvally different. I think what is going on here is that you have trouble to differentiate ideological outgroups. People that are different from you are all the same since you perceive them as one menacing conspiracy against you.

[–]NefariousBananaTurned Heel on Ghazi [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

OK, I fucked up this one. I should've clarified that the supporters aren't the neo reactionaries. I don't even think that's the majority. I meant more along the lines of the people that "rallied the troops" so to speak. People like MundaneMatt and InternetAristocrat who's views kinda fall in line with alt-right philosophy. And a lot of early gamergate supporters fell for the rhetoric hook line and sinker whilst simultaneously claiming to be "left wing liberals" at the same time, ignoring the fact that you can be right wing on certain stances like gender politics.

It's not conspiracy, but birds of a feather flock together.

[–]DissentientPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

ignoring the fact that you can be right wing on certain stances like gender politics.

One of your problems is that you perceive anything that is less left than you as right-wing.

[–]judgeholden72 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Except for the fact that the things repeatedly said here about social issues that don't support straight white men are flat-out right wing.

There's endless denial of race privilege or gender privilege, which is a right wing thing to do. There are arguments for colorblindness or "merit," which are right wing talking points and among the most meaningless things you can say when you think about it.

Seriously, "merit based hiring" is so ridiculously meaningless that it can only be said by someone that's never been part of a hiring committee and seen how a group of three people can spend see 5 candidates and have trouble determining which has the most "merit" because not only do they see the candidates differently but they see the needed skills for the role differently.

Yet GG will come out with "I support equality, colorblindness, and merit based hiring," which are things old white Republicans say.

[–]coherentsheafPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I dont know much about MundaneMatt, but from what I have seen InternetAristocrat could fall within the neoreactionary spectrum on some issues, though he is rarely explicit and his appeal comes more from critisizing the far left than from his underlying philosophy. This is not so much gamergate being right wing as them agreeing that ´certain views in the left wing are toxic to social progress, a view I agree with.

[–]stopsayingfaggotAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Oh goody, I get to post this again:

[–]youchoobDen Mother [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

ahahahaha I beat you to it.

[–]stopsayingfaggotAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

No fair! You're a mod, you have an unfair advantage!

[–]youchoobDen Mother [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Modabuse.

Considering I approved. Searched it. Found your comment. Permalinked. Open r /agg. sort by new. Paste. It's not too bad.

[–]stopsayingfaggotAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I'll get you next time.. *grumble grumble*

[–]youchoobDen Mother [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

To be fair, I'm tempted to bring up the "What would make you neutral" thread again.

[–]youchoobDen Mother [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/3a3w5d/antigg_why_are_you_against_gamergate/cs9g9k0

[–]Manception [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

One of several reasons is that GG demands respect and empathy that it refuses to show itself. Bigoted slurs are just fun jokes, but critical words about gamers is serious business. FPH is sacred free speech, Polygon expressing opinions GG dislikes is not.

[–]macinnebAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (54子コメント)

This thread again?

Because I refuse to support a faceless mob that's incapable of accountability, for one. That's one of many reasons that people have clearly stated the last 800 of these posts.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (53子コメント)

Do you mind if I counter some of what you have said?

[–]macinnebAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (52子コメント)

The only thing you can "counter" with is "But I LIKE faceless mobs!" So there's not a whole lot of point as at this point it's just a matter of preference.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (51子コメント)

Please don't put words in my mouth, because now i'm going to return the favor and put words in your mouth and take that as a "yes".

Any large group is going to be made up of people you don't know. Yes, they are anonymous, but how else could it be?

Also you said that gg is incapable of accountability. I would like to point out that groups of people are rarely accountable for the actions of insiders. Does a school punish all students for the actions of one? Should all police officers be accounttable fuerguson? Should muslims be accounable for the actions of islamic terrorists? No!

A group should never be held accountable for the actions of insiders, unless that behavour was a direct result of values held by that group! GG is a fight for better ethics in games journalism (I know that gets repeated alot but it is true!)

No-one is arguing that poeple like Zoe Quinn and Anita weren't harrassed by people who where members of GG. But that doesn't change GG's main objective which I strongly support. I hate harrasment against anybody. The treatments of both pro and anti gg'ers has been disgusting.

[–]macinnebAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (21子コメント)

I would like to point out that groups of people are rarely accountable for the actions of insiders

Wut. Wut wut wut. All my wut. Politicians are frequently held accountable based on many different groups they're in. If a Democrat steps out of line then the party has to take accountability for the actions or distance themselves from the person.

A group should never be held accountable for the actions of insiders, unless that behavour was a direct result of values held by that group!

Okay. What are GG's values? Guess what - since it's a faceless mob you'll literally never have a straight, true answer to that. Therefore it's hard to take them seriously as a 'movement' if they can't even get the most simple of things straight - its aim.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

If a Democrat steps out of line then the party has to take accountability for the actions or distance themselves from the person.

And they distance themselves from the person, proving my point. In any group you will get good people and bad, and allowing the bad to affect your view of the group as a whole is never a good thing

[–]macinnebAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (19子コメント)

Okay, how does GG without a consensus on any single topic distance itself from the harassers? Trick question, it can't, because as long as you lack any infrastructure whatsoever the next jackass that uses the #GG hashtag is no less representative of GG than the next.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

But there is a structure to GG. /r/kia and 8chans /gamergate/ are clear centres of discussion and activity.

[–]NefariousBananaTurned Heel on Ghazi [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

But there's infighting between those boards. There's probably plenty of people on /GG/ who hate KiA and vice versa. Who's to say that all of their opinions on gamergate are all identical?

[–]OrangeDreamed [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well of course there's infighting how else are you going to figure out what you're going for? Humans aren't a fucking hive mind, they're individuals. Although, admittedly some groups of humans make a strong case for the former.

[–]macinnebAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (15子コメント)

Really? Because whenever someone points to something shitty repeating itself on KiA, they go "But noooo KiA isn't representative of GG, 8chan is" then when really awful things show up there they go "nooooo that isn't either!"

Because it's all a mob with no structure there's no way to ACTUALLY distancce yourself from shitty things.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

Really? Because whenever someone points to something shitty repeating itself on KiA, they go "But noooo KiA isn't representative of GG, 8chan is" then when really awful things show up there they go "nooooo that isn't either!"

Who says that? And even if they did, so what? It clearly isn't true.

You keep saying GG is a mob with no structure. Even if it was, so what?

[–]fernsauce [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Also you said that gg is incapable of accountability. I would like to point out that groups of people are rarely accountable for the actions of insiders. Does a school punish all students for the actions of one? Should all police officers be accounttable fuerguson? Should muslims be accounable for the actions of islamic terrorists? No!

Generally, they punish the people responsible. GG doesn't really like to do that, and any suggestion of "hey this guy is a dick" is met with the Tone Policing Hammer. Any suggestion that "hey, we shouldn't associate with rape apologists / Holocaust deniers / "human-biodiversity advocates" / literal, card-carrying fascists / marital rape advocates / people with storied histories of stalking girls on YouTube" gets shot down with accusations of being a shill, attempting to sabotage GG. For example!

GG is also a political movement, which is fundamentally different from being a social class. It's an adopted label, not one decided by circumstance of birth. By adopting a label, you are asking people to judge you based on the collective. You are to some degree assimilating for the purpose of political power. GG doesn't get to have its cake and eat it too, to unite for a common cause but to avoid any of the pitfalls of teaming up with assholes. It is simply not how the world works.

Finally, you have to understand that what people consider bad is more broad than "literal death and rape threats." Those are the most extreme examples. When it comes to "being shitty assholes," it's not anonymous people who happen to be on the same side as GG, it's GG's spokesmen and figureheads, the people GG absolutely adores and loves as reflected in upvoted KiA threads, Twitter retweets, and 8chan threads. It's very easy to argue that few gators actually participate in sending rape, death threats. This is typical of strawmen.

Oh, also, it's incredibly naive to think that GG's main objective is exactly as they say it is. Notice how the people who happen to be declared unethical is a fucking perfect match for "political enemies of GG." KiA has more threads about SJW's and feminists+feminism than it does about journalism or ethics. Most of GG's targets are not journalists. Several of GG's figureheads have absolutely no interest in games or games journalism, and are only participants because of GG's extremely strong, extremely obvious political agenda. GG giving lip service to ethics every once in a while doesn't change what it fundamentally is about. And everyone fucking knows what it fundamentally is about, or none of us would be here.

Essentially: dysfunctional moral compass + extremely obvious political agenda + willingness to use ~bad tactics~ + that weird propensity for people to get harassed every time GG fixates on them + a complete unwillingness on the part of GG to change in the least, or even to admit that their movement has serious, damning problems = a shit salad.

[–]meheleventyoneAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

For example!

What happens when someone calls out GG harassment.

Spoilers It get's downplayed and people take affront at the idea that harassing a bunch of people via their hash-tag is a bad thing to do. Although it's heartening to see lots of people saying GG does do bad things in the comments even if it get routinely denied over here.

[–]OrangeDreamed [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Generally, they punish the people responsible. GG doesn't really like to do that, and any suggestion of "hey this guy is a dick" is met with the Tone Policing Hammer. Any suggestion that "hey, we shouldn't associate with rape apologists / Holocaust deniers / "human-biodiversity advocates" / literal, card-carrying fascists / marital rape advocates / people with storied histories of stalking girls on YouTube" gets shot down with accusations of being a shill, attempting to sabotage GG.

Your example is Vox Day. Are you serious? He's part of Sad/Rabid Puppies (which is some silliness happening in Sci-fi) and the only time he's brought up is to paint GG as misogynistic. Get your shit in order. Being an asshole is perfectly fine, at least assholes don't hide behind the argument that 'everyone over there is an asshole so I'm against them'.

GG is also a political movement, which is fundamentally different from being a social class.

Same thing can be said of feminism, and you can make the exact same arguments you make here about that.

When it comes to "being shitty assholes," it's not anonymous people who happen to be on the same side as GG, it's GG's spokesmen and figureheads, the people GG absolutely adores and loves as reflected in upvoted KiA threads, Twitter retweets, and 8chan threads.

Pics or it didn't happen. At least you gave an example in your first paragraph (as ridiculous as it is).

Oh, also, it's incredibly naive to think that GG's main objective is exactly as they say it is. Notice how the people who happen to be declared unethical is a fucking perfect match for "political enemies of GG."

WHAT A SHOCK, UNETHICAL JOURNOS TARGETS OF GG? NO WAY. I THOUGHT GG WAS ABOUT HARASSING ONLY WOMEN OUT OF GAMING. Oh they're SJWs as well? WELL WHAT A SURPRISE, MAYBE BEING A SJW AND BEING UNETHICAL HAVE OVERLAP. Have you seen the 'Gamers are dead' articles? How do you explain 12 (or more) gaming journo sites releasing the same bloody article (with some minor tweaks and changes) on the same fucking day? And all of them call their BLOODY USERBASE dead because there's some talk about a vapid cunt who slept with a journo, that's transcending unethical practice, this whole bloody thing could have been over 10 months ago if they simply said: 'Aight you got us, we'll put disclaimers into our articles from now on'. But nooo, HEAVEN FORBID YOU CRITICISE THE PANTHEON OF GAMING JOURNOS FOR BEING UNETHICAL, BAD GAMERS, NO IDENTITY FOR YOU. Isn't social justice all about your identity?

Most of GG's targets are not journalists.

Like who? Names mate. Don't throw out accusations without sourcing shit.

Several of GG's figureheads have absolutely no interest in games or games journalism, and are only participants because of GG's extremely strong, extremely obvious political agenda.

Got this completely wrong mate, they're the ONLY ONES talking about it because the other side refuses to have a discussion (or when they do, it always goes back to HARASSMENT AND FEEEEEEELZ). And of course they're going to try to push their agenda, aren't you pushing yours here?

Essentially: dysfunctional moral compass + extremely obvious political agenda + willingness to use ~bad tactics~ + that weird propensity for people to get harassed every time GG fixates on them + a complete unwillingness on the part of GG to change in the least, or even to admit that their movement has serious, damning problems = a shit salad.

Oh boy.

Moral compass. How is anything GG has done immoral? Is donating to charities immoral? Is revealing an ethical breach of a journo paying the subject of an article to make a game immoral? Is calling someone stupid for doing stupid things immoral? WHAT IS THE FUCKING BREAK POINT BETWEEN MORALITY AND IMMORALITY?

The only political agenda here is: STOP BEING STUPID.

Bad tactics. You mean something like Bob Chipman's: there is "No bad tactics, only bad targets."? I don't think Bob is pro-GG.

OH NOES, PEOPLE WHO ARE TARGETED BY GG ARE HARASSED, WOE IS THEM FOR MAKING A FUCKTON OF DOUGH. C'mon now, from my point of view being harassed seems to be a very profitable venture, if I had a vagina and a nice pair of tits and absolutely zero self respect, I would be on that shit like soy on rice. Unfortunately for those poor victims that narrative is crumbling away.

Let me blow your mind: GG is the change. For a time, GG also ran an anti-harrassment patrol on twitter, it was given up because the usual suspects refused to acknowledge it, and the general mob of GG was doing perfectly fine at exposing harassment for being the sham it was.

TL;DR: Leave your hugbox, read some archives, stop Listening and Believing.

[–]judgeholden72 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

This was reported. I think it warrants a response rather than being deleted.

[–]OrangeDreamed [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

A lot of things do, but my rights end where people's feelings begin.

[–]Ch1mpanz33M1nd53t [スコア非表示]  (23子コメント)

GG is a fight for better ethics in games journalism (I know that gets repeated alot but it is true!)

How do you know that it's true?

[–]TaxTime2015/Melisandre/ is always right [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Is there a reason you are being a dick?

Like most of his post can be torn to shreds but don't be unwelcoming.

[–]Ch1mpanz33M1nd53t [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Eh? I thought that was one of my less dickish comments!

[–]TaxTime2015/Melisandre/ is always right [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Just thought I should call out "my side". You seemed to be acting a bit like a dick.

Also:

Bonobos4life

[–]Mournhold [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Seriously, I was thinking the same thing. I was actually impressed with your response here since so many of your other comments are pretty shitty, at least in my opinion.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, huh?

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Thank you

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

Take the front page of /r/kotakuinaction right now. You have posts like:

Leigh Alexander (PR for Sunset) supports Javy Gwaltney on Patreon. Five months later, Gwaltney gives Sunset 9.0/10 with no disclosure in the review.

BBC Apologises to Grant Shapps - Shapps Writes to Wikipedia Formally Requesting Disclosure as Clouds Gather Over Embattled Encyclopaedia (GamerGate mentioned extensively)

Kotaku writer jumps the gun to complain about Barbara Gordon in Arkham Knight. Admits he didn't finish the game, so he has no idea how that scene plays out.

These are clearly focused on GG's main objective. Admitadly a lot of posts are also commenting on radical social justice ideas in media, but I would argue that is also a part of GG.

If you take a look at the GG achievements list then you will see that the majorty are journalism focused things like:

Kotaku editor Stephen Totilo releases a statement regarding their stance on Patreon donations

The Guardian edits their article, "How to attack a woman who works in video gaming" with a partial disclaimer stating author Jenn Frank financially supported Zoe Quinn's game, Depression Quest

Breitbart releases an article about GamerGate's Anti-Bullying Campaign and how it cost Gawker over a million dollars

[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORM [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I can do cherry-picked samples too. How about the ten most upvoted posts from the top of KiA

  • A joke making fun of Reddit CEO Ellen Pao is removed for "harassment" after receiving more than 3000 upvotes. (archive.is)

Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or games. Or journalism

  • User banned from /r/Planetside after using a meme which involved the word "trap" and is forced to submit a 500 line of text essay on the impact of transphobia in America in order for the ban to be lifted. (i.imgur.com)

Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or journalism. Barely about games.

  • Voat.co's provider, hosteurope.de, shuts down voat's servers due to "political incorrectness" (voat.co)

Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or games. Or journalism

  • Reddit CEO Ellen Pao: "It's not our site's goal to be a completely free-speech platform" (businessinsider.com.au)

Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or games. Or journalism

  • Judge tentatively orders Ellen Pao to pay more than $275,000 in court costs to fmr employer Kleiner Perkins (twitter.com)

Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or games. Or journalism

  • Reddit interim CEO Ellen Pao is asking her previous employer for $2.7M for a guarantee that she won't appeal, threads on this keep getting deleted. (archive.is)

Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or games. Or journalism

  • Reddit, then and now (i.imgur.com)

Complaint about removals in /r/news. Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or games. Or journalism

  • News articles on the Ellen Pao $276k legal fee news item were deleted at least 15 times on reddit. Most deletions were on default subreddits. (Archive from /r/undelete) (archive.is)

Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or games. Or journalism

  • this picture was removed from r/funny for harrasment, it sums up the recent pao events nicely in my opinion (i.imgur.com)

Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or games. Or journalism

  • TPP talk isn't allowed in /r/news for being too political, but apparently the confederate flag and marriage equality aren't political

Not related to ethics in games journalism. Or games. Or journalism

The most highly upvoted posts in KiA have literally nothing to do with "ethics in games journalism" and everything to do with "actually is about politics we dislike in... stuff".

[–]meheleventyoneAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Leigh Alexander (PR for Sunset) supports Javy Gwaltney on Patreon. Five months later, Gwaltney gives Sunset 9.0/10 with no disclosure in the review.

This isn't even factually accurate how ethical is it to not bother to verify the facts before dragging peoples names through the mud?

[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORM [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Paraphrasing Nixon, "It's not unethical when GG does it".

[–]Ch1mpanz33M1nd53t [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

How many of those achievements improved games journalism?

A bunch of them are advertisers pulling out of sites, before later realizing that they'd been bullshitted.

Plus the whole "we made FTC change their policies" thing is a load of shit.

There are a lot of "we raised money for charity!" things which are a) unrelated to gaming journalism and b) just taking credit for anonymous online actions (despite the fact that GG constantly insists that it can't be held responsible for anonymous online actions).

Have I missed any actual improvements to gaming journalism in there? The closest things are some sites publishing or re-wording their existing policies. Which resulted in... GG continuing to try to destroy those sites. And no other actual change.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

If your going to take the piss out of my spelling, we can't have a discussion (For anyone else it's the deleted comment) Get someone else to post if you want me to respond to that.

[–]Ch1mpanz33M1nd53t [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So ignore the deleted comment and respond to this one.

[–]macinnebAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

Really, because when I look at the front page I see mostly skeleton drama.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

skeleton drama.

Could you explain?

[–]macinnebAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

SJW drama. I have a chrome extension that turns the word SJW into skeleton.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

lol. thats a large part of it too. I dont really follow that area too much though.

[–]stopsayingfaggotAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The Guardian edits their article, "How to attack a woman who works in video gaming" with a partial disclaimer stating author Jenn Frank financially supported Zoe Quinn's game, Depression Quest

Oh for fuck's sake.

Do you not know what actually happened here? Jenn Frank wrote an article for The Guardian, condemning the harassment received by Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. When she submitted her article, she notified The Guardian that she contributes to Zoe's Patreon and had once met Anita, but The Guardian sensibly didn't bother to include these things in the article since they didn't amount to a conflict of interest.

Of course, GamerGate then did their usual ethics background check, found out about the connection with Zoe, decided that she was another corrupt video game journalist, and made her the newest target for their harassment and hate, to the point where she felt compelled at the time to leave gaming journalism entirely. The Guardian then edited the piece to include that disclaimer, not because they thought it was warranted by their ethical standards, but at her request so that people would back off and stop harassing her.

The fact that you consider this disgusting affair to be one of your "accomplishments" says everything that needs to be said about the utter worthlessness of your so-called movement for journalistic ethics. GamerGate doesn't care about the terrible effect that your so-called ethics campaign can have on others, so long as your arbitrary and irrational demand to be appeased by journalists can be satisfied.

[–]TweetsInCommentsBot [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

@jennatar

2014-09-03 21:31 UTC

.@_Pumpkinbomb @FDZ095323 @stillgray You know what? HERE. I *can* share the first draft I emailed, I am sure:

[Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]

This message was created by a bot

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[–]le_epic_redditeur [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It started off as a harassment/slut-shaming campaign against vocal women game devs/critics and hasn't really gotten much better since then. Now it's basically just annoying. I dunno. I just wish GGers would move on with their lives and stop saying stupid shit all the time and harassing women like it's their job.

[–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'll just quote myself for this one from another thread.

Gamergate has a huge slant against the kind of things I personally support.

I think they just flat out misunderstood the Gamers are Over articles.
I don't think the Mainstream Media is lying about Gamergate.
I don't believe Anita or Zoe or anyone is a professional victim.
I don't think SJW politics is ruining Games Reviews.
I don't believe scores should be free from opinions or personal tastes.
I don't think Games Journalists are incapable of separating their personal and professional lives.
I don't believe there's any reason to mistrust outlets that have served me perfectly well for years.
I really don't believe "Both sides are as bad as each other" or that it'd all cancel out even if it was true. Which it's not.

I just don't believe in the core of what Gamergate is. At all.

[–]BobmuffinsAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (39子コメント)

Because it doesn't help anyone, but it harms everyone.

The sooner it ends the better. It has achieved nothing good, and it's end goal is horrible. It has, however, achieved a fuckton of negative stuff. There is no compelling reason to support it.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (38子コメント)

here

[–]BobmuffinsAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (31子コメント)

Oh yeah, you annoyed a bunch of gaming news sites into going "ey you dumb fucks, here's the ethics statement we've had on our site all along".

Also, notice how we're now in month 7 of 2015, and there exists a whole nine points in 2015? None of which are even remotely significant?

  • A site got annoyed into saying "don't act dumb, please".
  • GG completely missing the point of "professional relationships", yet again, and jerking their hateboner off to the thought.
  • Being annoying and throwing a tantrum because someone said a thing you didn't like, yet again.
  • This is a win for GG how?
  • "likely". Okay m8
  • Ah yes, GG stamping their name on something because one of them mentioned it this one time.
  • More "don't act dumb."
  • I've never heard of this one before and the source is a broken archive link. B)
  • lmao yes because "you're interested in this thing because of us? give us a few cents if you buy it please <3" is such an ethical breach

Wow, resounding successes all around! Good job, guys! Great work! You totally haven't done nothing at all these last seven months other than ruin lives! Congrats!

Oops, no wait, I lied.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (30子コメント)

We can't have a discussion of you aren't polite/respectful :/

[–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (29子コメント)

Do you think Gamergate is polite and respectful?

[–]BobmuffinsAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Thank you.

I wasn't sure how to word it, really my thoughts on this is "GG doesn't deserve polite and respectful at this point", but... yeah no this says it much better.

[–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I mean GG actively mock the very idea of politeness and respect. That's SJW bullshit to them.

The idea of 8 Chan being about politeness and respect has me laughing now. Damn it.

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

Why is that important to my comment? Seems like a red-herring.

The subject doesn't affect the formaities of a debate.

[–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

If you believe discussion can only be had when people are polite and respectful, why do you support Gamergate a movement that got kicked out of multiple Subreddits, SA and 4chan for being amazingly irritating?

[–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (16子コメント)

"While I think I would be completely fucking stupid to claim that non of those are by gamergate supporters - I believe harrasment/doxxing of women isn't a core principle of gamergate. If you take any group of people (Gamergaters, anti-gamergaters, gardeners, police officers, muslims, christians, teachers, whites, blacks etc.) you will find good people and bad people. It's generally a not good idea to not let the bad elements of a group decide your view of the entire group."

I support gg because of that. Also your question is kind of loaded because aggers aren't any nicer.

[–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (14子コメント)

So you're allowed to be impolite and disrespectful in a discussion as long as it isn't one of your core principles?

[–]judgeholden72 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I believe harrasment/doxxing of women isn't a core principle of gamergate

It sure seems to be the main activity. Along with screaming at people to follow the rules they want people to follow and defending whatever horrible thing someone else said as either being "just the internet," "just trolling," "not GG, despite them having thousands of posts in KiA," or "a perfectly acceptable consequence of free speech, so you should sit there and not say anything back."

[–]SattorinPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

You aren't communicating with "GamerGate". You're communicating with a pro-GG person on /r/againstgamergate. I hope you can see the difference.

[–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

Yes but that's not my point.

This is a thread where they're asking how people can be against Gamergate. So I'm using their own points to show why.

[–]SattorinPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Yeah, that's a fair point then :)

Honestly I just think it's silly to refer to GamerGate as a group at this point. It's much more of a philosophy based around several video-gaming topics, in my opinion.

[–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Gamergate refers to itself as a movement or consumer revolt. It wants to be treated as a group when it suits them, but gets annoyed when treated as a group all the time.

[–]SattorinPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Gamergate refers to itself as a movement or consumer revolt. It wants to be treated as a group when it suits them, but gets annoyed when treated as a group all the time.

This comment is exactly why it doesn't make sense to see it as a group. You can take my opinion and say "That's GamerGate". Or an anonymous troll can use the #GamerGate tag and it would instantly represent the "group".

That logic is sound whether you like or dislike the principles GG.

[–]GhostPirateCyborg [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

13% of GG's achievements are disclosure

39% of GG's achievements only benefit GG

18% of GG's achievements are donations

5% of GG's achievements are anti-harassment

23% of GG's achievements I've classified as WTF? because I can't find an achievement there

2% of GG's achievements are ethics-related

The last 2% is a column I call "Dickishness"

[–]fernsauce [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

personal favs:

When TotalBiscuit Tweeted about a charity, anti-gg'ers got angry and created the #unsubTB hashtag. GamerGate took over and used it to spread awareness of tuberculosis.

also

General Motors states that they do not have any sponsorships with Gawker Media nor do they conduct business or have any plans to do so for the future

victory?!?!

this one is also great

A Twitter account spams illegal pornography at the Feminist Frequency twitter account. 4chan users report the offending account for abuse.

In general, the 2015 section is utterly wretched. But, even so, the amount of actual accomplishment here is really fucking small.

[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORM [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

General Motors states that they do not have any sponsorships with Gawker Media nor do they conduct business or have any plans to do so for the future

victory?!?!

So if I ask GM if they plan to continue supporting FIFA, I can count their "we haven't done so, and it's not explicitly included in our business plan" as a crushing victory against corruption in soccer? Cool. I can imagine Blatter shaking on his boots at the though of a company they've never done business with stating that they've never done business with them.

[–]Caelrie [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

39% of GG's achievements only benefit GG

GG is literally a movement that exists solely to harass people who criticize GG. That's really funny when you think about it.

[–]coherentsheafPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Absolute nonsense. I never harassed anyone and neither has the bulk of the movement.

[–]SattorinPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Hey now, we've been accused of harassing people who criticize /r/pcmasterrace too!

[–]meheleventyoneAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Why would I support such a toxic movement full of horrible people whose crowning achievement is the harassment of women who for the most part aren't even journalists (the purported target) to the point it was national news?

It would be silly to do so and claim I cared about ethics at the same time.

[–]ryargerAnti/Neutral [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

OP, do you believe that sexism and racism have a large effect in shaping modern, western society?

Statistically, if you support GG you don't accept facts like the gender wage gap, or the need for affirmative action. You probably believe that the Charleston shooting was a random act and not a symptom of a deep problem with race relations. You probably think that "male privilege" and "white privilege" are either non-existent or trivial.

KiA, /gamergatehq/ and #gamergate are places where these ideas are aired daily with virtually no opposition. They are at the heart and soul of GamerGate.

That's the most important reason I'm against GG- it fundamentally has nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with being anti-feminist and anti-SJ.

You can add to that:

  • Deeply Anti-free speech while fooling itself into believing that anti-censorship is a core value

  • Willing to defend the indefensible in order to retain allies. Just in the past couple of days we've had Adam Baldwin's anti-LGBT rants and a bizarre defense of debt collectors. (To be fair, I was happy to see the VAST majority of KiA very happy about the SCOTUS ruling.)

  • An inability to look around and see all of the larger groups that don't have harassment and toxicity issues. They continue to insist that "all large groups have bad actors" or "this is just how the Internet is" when those things are simply not true.

There is much more but it all becomes noise against the general theme of KiA day in and day out - "we don't hate women! But let's talk about all of these evil women and also talk about how white men have it so much worse than everyone else".

[–]DissentientPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Not OP, but gonna answer.

do you believe that sexism and racism have a large effect in shaping modern, western society?

Incomparably smaller than they were 100 years ago. I believe that in modern wastern society both genders have issues of equal importance, but only one gender's problems get attention.

Racism is a problem in itself, but it's also a symptom of other problems, like poverty in black communities and education system generally sucking.

don't accept facts like the gender wage gap

There's no such thing as significant wage gap, if you define wage gap as a man being paid more for the same job with same qualifications. There may be 5% difference tops. 20%+ figures come from comparing a total of wages of all men and women, which does not fit that definition. If women choose to work less hours and make careers in fields, where there's less demand for workforce, it's not a society's problem, since they chose to get jobs that pay less to get some other advantages.

or the need for affirmative action

I find affirmative action to be counter-productive. No one should get special treatment based on race or gender, everyone should get equal opportunities. Society doesn't benefit from discrimination, be it 'positive' one or negative one. It's better to make sure that people who deserve positions, get them, regardless of their race, gender, orientation or disabilities.

You probably think that "male privilege" and "white privilege" are either non-existent or trivial.

In america white privilege exists and is not trivial. There's no such thing as male privilege in western society, it's sexist in a way that both genders have equally significant advantages and disadvantages.

I am pro social justice, but I'm against many popular brands of 'social justice' that I don't find helpful.

[–]ryargerAnti/Neutral [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Thanks for your reply. While I disagree with your opinions mostly, I don't think they make you a bad person or anything like that.

My point to the OP is that your opinions here are what make you a GamerGater. Much, much more than any desire to improve ethics in gaming journalism.

Many anti-GGers will agree with you on gaming journalism topics. Very few anti-GGers will agree with you on these SJ topics.

[–]DissentientPro-GG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well, one of the problems I see with the other side of SJ is that they aren't that good at handling disagreement.

You ability to agree to disagree without calling me a monster makes you way better than those people.

My point was that majority of gamergate holds views similar to mine, and are also pro social justice, but disagree with methods and priorities of people they call 'social justice warriors'.

[–]paulrei [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

why do these threads keep getting approved and why do they still receive even semi-serious responses instead of FYAD-style mockery for not using the search function

[–]TaxTime2015/Melisandre/ is always right [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Okay. I am anti because I am anti reactionary. I actually have no hard investment in vidya (unlike a lot of people on both sides). I am hoping to stop a non zero amount of people from developing into reactionaries.

[–]angryfuck [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I actually have no hard investment in vidya

I think you just triggered /u/Netscape9.

[–]TaxTime2015/Melisandre/ is always right [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, cool. He actually PMed me. But not about that. But thanks.

[–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

I've been looking around here and I can't find a clear explination.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/2uvulu/what_are_your_main_reasons_to_be_against_gamergate/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/3a3w5d/antigg_why_are_you_against_gamergate/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/2yalqj/gator_here_wondering_what_are_valid_reasons_to_be/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/2kzd1h/give_me_your_best_shot_at_turning_me_against/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/2vu7f5/when_you_say_youre_against_gamergate_what_exactly/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/32l0ti/what_are_your_current_arguments_against_gamergate/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/2lt8nc/why_are_you_antigg/

This is just the first page of an "Against Gamergate" search.

I'm gonna go with "Lack of fact checking" as my reason.

[–][削除されました]  (8子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]youchoobDen Mother[M] [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    Rule 2.

    Plus Don't be an Ass to new people.

    [–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    Actually

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/3bq6ux/why_are_you_against_gamergate/

    does.

    yes I'm petty too

    [–]Ch1mpanz33M1nd53t [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    That's just this thread.

    Which was not "one of those" in your original list.

    [pettiness intensifies]

    [–]StillMostlyClueless-Achievement Unlocked- [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    .... Darn it.

    You win this time, but don't think I'll ever forget this. One day I will have my petty, petty vengeance.

    [–]stopsayingfaggotAnti-GG [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/2vu7f5/when_you_say_youre_against_gamergate_what_exactly/

    Huh, I missed that one. Adding it to my list.

    [–]an_oni_moose [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I support gamergate, because as far as I can see it is a movement that is based around improving gaming journalisms ethical standards.

    Yeah, that's what they tell you, but what are they actually doing? Harassing people off the internet is easily the biggest, most visible impact the movement has had on anything.

    [–]Ch1mpanz33M1nd53t [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

    I've been looking around here and I can't find a clear explination.

    You mustn't have looked very hard, because there's a new thread like this every week or so.

    [–]youchoobDen Mother [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Literally 14 Days

    [–]GenderConfusedSquidPro-GG[S] [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

    I haven't been on here for very long. Also I didn't use the search (which was dumb, my bad). Honestly I want to discuss with someone about why they fell a certain way, and not just read it from the text as I often have some questions that go unanswered.

    [–]Ch1mpanz33M1nd53t [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

    I support gamergate, because as far as I can see it is a movement that is based around improving gaming journalisms ethical standards.

    This is not what I (or anyone against GG) sees. Given that "as far as you can see" doesn't include far enough to see anyone else explain why they're against GG, my advice would be to look a bit closer.