全 59 件のコメント

[–]OftenStupid 25ポイント26ポイント  (1子コメント)

Junker is full of shit and trying to weasel out of the fact that his proposal cut EKAS, which is a bonus to those with the lowest (i.e. hardly liveable) pensions.

That alone doesn't exactly radiate vibes of goodwill and honesty.

[–]MaDaFaKaS 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ΕΚΑΣ is being discrussed today with the latest proposal from Junker

[–]Apapabo 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, but ship owners are the ones paying taxes VOLUNTARILY through a $ per GRT scheme! Ship owners in Germany, however, do not pay taxes on either tonnage OR dividends. So why damage the Greek economy further with irrational taxes?

[–]maksumuto[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ok, that escalated quickly. Thanks for your insights though.

[–]Anergos 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Every quote taken from Transcript of President Jean-Claude Juncker's press conference on Greece (source)


Quote1: There are no pension cuts in this package. No pension cuts in this package.

Disproving the statement:

Page 4 of List of prior actions - version of 26 June 20 00 (source) :

Gradually phase out the solidarity grant (EKAS) for all pensioners by end-December 2019. This shall start immediately as regards the top 20% of beneficiaries with the modalities of the phase out to be agreed with the institutions;

What is EKAS? Α Social Solidarity Benefit for low income Pensioners.

Page 4 of same document.

increase the health contributions for pensioners from 4% to 6% on average and extend it to supplementary pensions;

Increasing the health contributions does not literally constitute a pension cut. But technically, it does. We are simple people, not laywers, we don't care about legal jargon but actual meaning.


Quote2: In fact, it’s a package which creates more social fairness

Disproving the statement:

Phasing out EKAS, a benefit for low income pensioners (see previous section) does not create more social fairness.

Page 1 of List of prior actions - version of 26 June 20 00 (source) :

The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate,

Increasing by 10% the VAT on processed foods (think spaghetti) does not create more social fairness.

Page 1 of List of prior actions - version of 26 June 20 00 (source) :

(iii) eliminate discounts, including on islands.

Removing VAT discounts on remote islands does not promote social fairness.


Quote3: In fact, it’s a package which creates more social fairness, more growth

Disproving the statement:

Page 1 of List of prior actions - version of 26 June 20 00 (source)

The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate, which will include restaurants and catering, and a reduced 13 percent rate for basic food, energy, hotels,

Increasing the hotel VAT by 5.5% and restaurant/catering VAT by 10% will not help our tourism grow. One of the largest industries in our country which is already in dire straights due to migration / competition from cheaper countries in the region.


I could go on for ever. His conference was half truths and omitted lies.

[–]Petros557ΠΑ.ΣΟ.Κ. και δε συμμαζεύομαι 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

hey, sorry, it usually doesnt end up like that ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[–]SaiXx 8ポイント9ポイント  (47子コメント)

turkish aircraft violate our airspace like every other week because Erdogan doesn't acknowledge the fact that the Aegean is greek. If we cut military spending we won't even be able to escort them out of our airspace, much less defend ourselves in case they decide to assault another one of our islands like it happened with Imia back in the '90s... I've read Juncker's proposal and there's not a single thing about growth in it, just more taxes and cuts, this isn't the Europe we signed up for.

[–]fastgr 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

turkish aircraft violate our airspace like every other week

To ksereis oti kai emeis kanoume to idio e?

[–]MaDaFaKaS 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ανεξαρτητα ποιος πεταει χαρτακια σε ποιον, υπαρχει καλος λογος για τις αμυντικες δαπανες οταν υπαρχει αυτη η ενταση στο Αιγαιο. Την τελευταια φορα που η Ελλαδα βρισκοταν σε αδυναμια εισεβαλλαν στην Κυπρο.

[–][削除されました]  (41子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]mrmgl 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Greek military spending is corellated to Turkish military spending. I know it's probably a sceme to keep both countries spending, but comparing Greece with France or the UK is pointless, as those countries are not threatened by their neighbours.

    I agree though that we need smarter spending, not bigger. We need some local factories that would manufacture parts for aircraft, tanks etc. Of course, France, Germany and the USA would never agree to that.

    [–]MaDaFaKaS 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

    france and Uk

    France and UK are not neighbouring a country with such an aggresive regiment as Turkey.

    https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Aegean_dispute

    This has been going on for decades and always rises in frequency in times of Greek weakness.

    [–]fidel04 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Having more fighter aircafts than france and Uk is tad extreme though no?

    No. Neither France nor the UK has a neighbouring country making acts of aggression daily.

    Having almost 2000 tanks is also extreme, considering how mountainous the terain is.

    Most of those tanks are located close to the border with Turkey at Thrace. The terrain there is almost perfectly flat.

    Having 4 of the world largest hovercafts is also extreme.

    Having to protect thousands of islands is also extremely difficult.

    Greece military spending is like we are still on the height of the cold war.

    The cold war never ended for Greece. It's just that the enemy has always been Turkey, not USSR.

    If you want peace, you need to prepare for war. At this point the military balance between Greece and Turkey is somewhat balanced, if not tipped a little bit in favor of Turkey. Think about this: if Greece were to actually have diminished military power compared to Turkey and if Turkey one day actually thought it was a good idea to invade Greece, would any other EU/NATO country send troops to help Greece? Would you, personally, volunteer? Or would you just decide that it's their own problem and let them sort it out on their own?

    [–]xDisruptor2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I hate to say it but fidel04 is right. I do love peace and I do want to see Turkey make proper friends with other nations in 21st century. But given the mentality of its political and military complex man we're in for a hell of a ride now that greece is oscillating nation-wide. I've been seeing coming for a long time now.

    [–]SaiXx 6ポイント7ポイント  (36子コメント)

    it never ended for us, Turkey has an active casus beli against us as we speak.

    [–]FemmeFatale12 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think you are paranoid.

    [–]callcifer -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Really? When was the last time there was active hostility between the countries? Hell, some of the Greek islands are so close to Turkish mainland you can literally see the roads/cars etc. from each other, so of course there will be violations (intentional or not) of air space from both sides.

    This whole Greece vs Turkey thing is a boogeyman. Neither country is willing to or even wants to attack each other, despite what nationalists on both sides believe. They actually helped each other on many occasions. When Greece withdrew from NATO forces in 1974, Turkey voted for restoring Greek membership even though they could have vetoed it. Why would they do that if they wanted to be enemies?

    So no, in a nearly bankrupt country I don't think a massive military spending is justified just because "those Turks might try something".

    [–]MaDaFaKaS 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Greece withdrew in 1974 as protest for the Turkish invasion of Cyprus. Kinda hypocritical that they wanted Greece back in.

    So no, in a nearly bankrupt country I don't think a massive military spending is justified just because "those Turks might try something".

    They did try something then, when Greece was under a dictatorship.

    [–]callcifer -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Kinda hypocritical that they wanted Greece back in.

    Wait what? If the Turks really wanted the Greek as enemies, why would they let them back into NATO? Wouldn't they block their readmission?

    They did try something then, when Greece was under a dictatorship.

    So this is about a four decades old grudge? Really?

    Also, I don't know about you, but if my neighbour was under a military dictatorship, I would also exercise my rights to save my people when said neighbour started attacking my communities and killing my people. Wouldn't you?

    [–]MaDaFaKaS 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    You ignore all the other aggressions and tension though

    [–]callcifer 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    All those other "aggressions" are just political posturing on both sides. Do you really think either side wants to fight the other? Really? If you talk to people who actually live on the Aegean on both sides, you'll see they are practically the same people. Similar culture, food, environment and hospitality. No one wants a war. Well, maybe the ultra nationalists would, but no one takes them seriously anyway.

    I think this whole "we need more military because those Turks might try something" rhetoric is just FUD to keep the masses silent and obedient. Greece doesn't need military spending right now. There are soo many more areas where they desperately need money.

    [–]xDisruptor2 -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Do you really think either side wants to fight the other?

    “Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America nor, for that matter, in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ... [V]oice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”

    Just make a list of the actions of aggressions perpetrated by Turkey and then Greece against nations other than Greece and Turkey. You will notice a pattern there. Turkey obliterated Kurds back in the days. It has a history of genocide (twice) and is in denial about it. Recently Erdogan's government has been caught red-handed supplying ammunition to ISIS militants on the border with Syria. So yeah the average Turk doesn't want war it's true. But irrelevant. I agree in that the Hellenic army should be much much more efficient. I give you that. But let's be realistic here: Given the circumstances no matter how much you cut off from an already diminished military budget you can only go that far. I loathe the current situation just like the next guy but I also like being realistic. It's a sad state having to live next to a country with medieval, barbaric mindset in it's political and military establishment.

    [–]Nikolasv 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Turkey doesn't violate Greek airspace by accident because it is so close, which would be nothing serious. Ankara violates the Athens FIR, because it doesn't recognize it and wants to show the international community that Greece cannot defend it. The thinking behind this policy is if the TurAF can overwhelm the Greek airforce by responding to issues in the jurisdiction of the Athens FIR more often, first and by establishing a bigger presence in the Aegean with more sorties, that the international community will have to step in and re-examine the status quo as the Greek state doesn't have de-facto control. For example:

    http://www.mfa.gov.tr/statement-by-ambassador-necati-utkan_-spokesman-of-the-ministry-of-foreign-affairs-in-response-to-a-question-on-the-greek-reaction-concerning-the-athens-fir_br__unofficial-translation__br_january-8_-1999.en.mfa

    Statement by Ambassador Necati Utkan, Spokesman of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs In Response To a Question on the Greek Reaction Concerning the Athens FIR (Unofficial Translation) January 8, 1999

    ...

    ANSWER - It was expressed in our press release dated January 5,1999 that Greece had failed to fulfill its technical responsibilities within the Athens FIR. As a matter of fact, the Greek reactions appeared in press thoroughly confirmed the information and views contained in our press release. Presence of serious problems within the Athens FIR was confirmed particularly by the Greek Civil Aviation Authority.

    Turkey also has the grey zone theory to dispute Greek islands and does the same with its coastguard trying to respond to and create incidents:

    http://www.mfa.gov.tr/islands_-islets-and-rocks-in-the-aegean-which-were-not-ceded-to-greece-by-international-treaties.en.mfa

    There are numerous small islands, islets and rocks in the Aegean ownership of which were not ceded to Greece by international treaties.

    ...

    This problem is related to the lack of any agreement concerning the delimitation of maritime boundaries between the two countries in the Aegean. The maritime boundaries in the Aegean have never been delimited, despite several efforts exerted in the past.

    And:
    http://www.mfa.gov.tr/background-note-on-aegean-disputes.en.mfa

    http://www.mfa.gov.tr/militarization-of-eastern-aegean-islands-contrary-tp-the-provisions-of-international-agreements.en.mfa

    Stop playing stupid and insulting our intelligence. I could go on and on. Sadly in Greece treason is a national hobby, and many Greeks would agree with your lame knee-jerk claim that there is no serious issue, so that the Greek side should cut defense spending, while the "born soldier" Turkish nation continues high military spending and rife ultra-nationalist militarism directed at neighboring states like Greece.

    [–]Apapabo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Agreed. This is a hoax to make people more afraid.

    [–][削除されました]  (26子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]SaiXx 5ポイント6ポイント  (25子コメント)

      I've seen turkish F-16s fly above me at Crete, your neighbors are peaceful. Ours aren't. Their government even supports ISIS ffs...

      [–]Origami84 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (24子コメント)

      Isn't Greece part of Nato? I am pretty sure you will not be invaded in the coming days -.-

      [–]Nikolasv 7ポイント8ポイント  (10子コメント)

      NATO is an alliance to pursue American interests and to a lesser extent those of its European allies that were in the past called Great Powers. Greece, was never a Great Power... NATO has done dick all to stop Turkish aggression and militarism, besides encourage it. Turkey wouldn't have even been able to invade the puny city-state of Cyprus in 1974 if not for Turkish NATO membership. All the major transport aircraft, LSTs, destroyers, frigates, bombers, fighter aircraft used in the invasion were cascaded equipment that NATO donated to Turkey.

      Alot of the bloodshed that is happening in Syria is the West showing support and deference to the disgusting Sunni bigoted Gulf Arab states like Qatar and Saudi Arabia that wanted to fund a war against Shiite Iran's ally, Assad, who depends on the Alawi community for his staunchest supporters. Turkey has been instrumental all along in funneling equipment, funds and training from the Gulf Arab states to the Islamic terrorists fighting in Syria.

      Spare us your stupid canards and fictions that NATO and the bloody Great Powers that run NATO have some kind of agenda to promote peace for Greece or any other state. I would advise you to read alot less mainstream oligarch controlled media and stop entertaining yourself all the time, if you want to have opinions worth having. NATO is the destroyer of states that stand up to Western hegemony, and an enemy of global peace. Even obedient puppet NATO countries like Greece don't get any peace out of the alliance. A Greece always threatened by Turkey, can be much more compliant after-all!

      [–]project2501aΟΥΚ ΑΝ ΛΑΒΟΙΣ 2ポイント3ポイント  (9子コメント)

      ΚουΚουΕ-ότερος της Παπαρήγας. I salute!

      Even obedient puppet NATO countries like Greece don't get any peace out of the alliance.

      Περίεργο, είμαστε σε ειρήνη από το '74. Ξέρεις κάτι που δεν ξέρω;

      [–]Nikolasv -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

      Displaced chankid, gamer:

      If a wife is constantly beaten by her husband for four decades, but never formerly gets into a fist fight, what kind of peace is that? I do not use that example by accident, as that is how Neoklis Sarris(a now deceased, but once very educated Istanbul Greek fluent in Turkish and highly knowledgeable about Turkish society and Greek-Turkish relations, and a former professor of sociology) states Turks view Greeks in the Greek-Turkish relationship, as the battered wife:

      http://palio.antibaro.gr/diplomacy/SARRIS.html

      But I will return momentarily to the question of fear. If we want to predict the structure of the Ottoman pattern we see that it is made of pairs of relations arranged vertically and not horizontally. The upper part of the pair loves the lower part and the lower part fears the upper part. Both parts have accepted this as their position, it is something natural, non-arguable. Arguing this relation is impertinence, hubris and revolt, rebellion, mutiny. This structure runs throughout all the line of the society, which in itself is established hierarchically and pyramid-like. This duet is observed in the relations between husband and wife on a micro-social level. Husband loves wife, wife fears husband, brother loves sister, sister fears brother. And today, as we will see, the same structure us pursued for a "Greek-Turkish approach". But all this in a moment.

      ...

      In reality, it is about the aforementioned pattern of couplets of relations (not horizontal but vertical) that constitute the Turkish authority structure, the mediaeval structure well known from the sermons of the Church Fathers. Thus, Turkey loves Greece and Greece fears Turkey. The founder of Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, had said a few months before he died in 1938, that Turkey and Greece are like a married couple. Only that the female role, according to the Turkish stereotypes must be played by Greece. As a series of investigations conducted in Turkey have evidenced, to the question how does your husband react when you disagree, a solid 70% answered "he beats me and maltreats me". Still, these women were happy with their marriage, because they were brought up to be this way. But, as you can understand, Greece neither wants to play this role, nor Turkey's protection. Greece is fed up with protectors...

      Since joining NATO in 1952 Turkey has:
      1) Destroyed the Greek community of Turkey, now they number around 2,500-2,000 or less. NATO membership gave Turkey a shield for the Istanbul pograms of 1955. NATO gave another Turkish shield for the administrative deportations of Istanbul Greeks in the 1960's and the turning of Imbros and Tenedos into open air prisons where Turkish hardened convicts terrorized the local Greek populace.
      2) Like I spoon fed to your moron ass, without NATO training and cascaded weapons Turkey couldn't have invade Cyprus in 1974. 3) NATO gives Turkey diplomatic protection to challenge the Athens FIR and implement its "grey zone" doctrine. This turns what should be a Greek-Turkish issue, into something that Greece is encouraged to sweep under and ignore for NATO stability, since NATO is unwilling to reign in their bandit state of Turkey. That means Greece must be the one that budges. See this post for those aforementioned Turkish policies, from the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs own website:
      http://www.reddit.com/r/greece/comments/3bm2sy/greeks_are_really_wanted_today_i_want_one_too/csnh8i8

      Thank you for contributing another low-quality and treasonous comment to this sub, as they are always sorely lacking.

      [–]project2501aΟΥΚ ΑΝ ΛΑΒΟΙΣ 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

      Displaced chankid, gamer:

      You forgot Redpiller, GamerGater, Rapist, Male, White, Chauvinist, neckbeard or whatever is the fashion of the day.

      But look, the Armchair Revolutionary is calling me a "gamer". Oh god, where's muh cup full of tears?

      Edit: When was the last time you came out to a march, comrade /u/nikolasv/? When was the last time the riot police busted your head open? What? "No such thing!", you say? Dog-gone it, Northern Suburbs revolutionaries...

      treasonous

      [–]xDisruptor2 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Το κάνεις να ακούγεται σαν το ΝΑΤΟ να το κατάφερε αυτό. Να σου θυμήσω ότι οι "ηγέτες του ελεύθερου κόσμου" (και του ΝΑΤΟ) πίσω το 1996 ξεκαθάρισαν στο Σημίτη ότι αν δεν υποκύψει στα θελήματα τους τότε θα γίνει πόλεμος με τη Τουρκία πίσω τότε με το επεισόδιο στα Ίμια. Αν εσύ αυτό το λες ειρήνη εγώ το λέω γειτονιά που έχει πολύ πυρίτιδα στα υπόγεια και οι Τούρκοι στρατηγοί ευχαρίστως γεμίζουν το τόπο σπίθες. Πρίν τα 40 ψωρο-χρόνια ειρήνης που διανύουμε είχαν περάσει άλλα 55 σχεδόν χρόνια απο τη τελευταία σύγκρουση με τη Τουρκία. Εφυσηχάσου.

      [–]SaiXx 6ポイント7ポイント  (12子コメント)

      That didn't stop them from invading Imia back in the '90s and killing our troops.

      [–]callcifer 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

      You mean the tiny, uninhabited, barren piece of rock, which is claimed by both countries where neither side has anything to win but political posturing?

      The whole conflicted started when a Turkish cargo ship ran ashore and had to be salvaged. Turkey contacted Greece thinking there was a sovereignty issue. Greece didn't reply, so Turkey went ahead and rescued the ship. You know what happened next? Nothing. No conflict, nothing. After a month has passed a Greek magazine published an article trying to create drama, which resulted in both sides trying to put a flag on the shitty piece of rock.

      Tensions rose, navies got involved and yes, a Greek helicopter went down killing all three on board, but even the Greek navy didn't claim Turkey fired on it.

      So yes, the only casualty in the whole Greece vs Turkey boogeyman drama was over bullshit nationalistic crap on both sides, everyone trying to one up each other. Humans can be really petty and stupid sometimes...

      [–]StratosB 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Those pieces of rock almost brought war against the two countries. Those rocks where just the spark. There is too much fuel left in both our "hate buckets". It's stupid. It always is.

      [–]vangelisc -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Those pieces of rock almost brought war against the two countries

      Which shows the lack of responsible politicians on both sides. That said there was no war after all, so maybe it's not all bad.

      [–]SaiXx 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      they didn't claim that the Turks shot it down because they didn't want a war to break out

      3 Greeks lost their LIVES because of turkish aggression, and all you have to say is "bullshit nationalistic crap on both sides"?

      you should be ashamed to say the least

      [–]FemmeFatale12 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Dude, we are in 2015. Nor the Greeks or the Turks wanna dwell on the same old.

      [–]callcifer 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Turkish aggression? You know the Greek side sent their navy first right? Before that, it was a mayor and priest on the Greek side and some journalists on the Turkish side. The situation escalated into a military conflict only when Greece sent special forces to the rock.

      So yeah, it was bullshit nationalistic celebrity posturing before Greece turned it into a military confrontation.

      [–]Origami84 -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I just read the related wiki pages, and no troops were killed; a chopper crashed, and 3 people died, but thats it. Beside, didnt the whole crisys get resolved not by arms, but by the intervention of the US who asked for a return to the status quo? Quite a sensible request, considering those isles are unhabitated and pretty much worthless.

      [–]SaiXx 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

      the chopper didn't crash on its own, they took it down

      who are you to deem what's worthless and what isn't?

      [–]vangelisc 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

      the chopper didn't crash on its own, they took it down

      Source? As far as I know this is just a conspiracy theory.

      [–]Origami84 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      It seemed to me that both the greek and turkish governments deems them worthless, as they didnt care about them before they ended up in the spotlight. And, any source on it haveing been taken down? Because that was referenced in wiki too - as a rumour.

      [–]project2501aΟΥΚ ΑΝ ΛΑΒΟΙΣ -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

      turkish aircraft violate our airspace like every other week because Erdogan doesn't acknowledge the fact that the Aegean is greek.

      Ξαναπέστο αυτό; όλο το Αιγαίο είναι δικό μας; Μα όλο;

      [–]x69pr 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Να φανταστώ οτι γνωρίζεις πως η Ελλάδα δεν εχει κάνει επέκταση των χωρικών της υδάτων όσο προβλέπουν οι διεθνείς κανονισμοί...

      http://www.onalert.gr/stories/aigaio-ola-osa-prepei-na-xeroume-gia-aoz-yfalokripida/33581

      Είδες τι διαφορά κανουν τα 6νμ από τα 12 που δικαιούμαστε?

      [–]project2501aΟΥΚ ΑΝ ΛΑΒΟΙΣ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Φυσικά και δεν έχει κάνει. Και έχουμε και παραπάνω σύμφωνα με τη συμφωνία της Λωζάνης. Και αυτό είναι το χαρτί που παίζουμε με τη Τουρκία σαράνταματαχρόνια τώρα.

      [–]StratosB 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The Juncker Stuff says - the EU did not want to cut pensions, also they would support a program to support the poor - EU wanted bigger defense budget cuts - they wanted an effective system to collect taxes - and get rid of tax exemptions for ship owners.

      Sadly, for mr Juncker, both proposals are written and published (not that the greek proposal is any better). Mr Juncker said, "don't commit suicide because you are afraid of death". So our choices are suicide or death? That's no dilemma.

      [–]tasos06 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

      eu wanted to raise the tax to 23 % on most basic goods , on housing , they wanted to cut the pensions , i am a greek , i am 26 years old , and right now we are afraid of the situation , we cant take enough money from atms , banks are closed till monday. but still this situation cant continue , we need a change for the better or the worse

      [–]MaDaFaKaS 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

      You are wrong on the VAT, but correct that cutting pensions (EKAΣ) further is a death sentence for many at this point. Good news is a new proposal was made today that is more open on the subject.

      [–]Fosch 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      have you seen the proposals? Eu agreed to a lower vat to basic goods, not an increase!

      [–]txapollo342writes in Math -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The worst thing at the political level all these years, is that the negotiations never had a stable relation to the public. We learned and learn what happens through leaks. I would prefer a completely transparent report, or even a completely opaque, than this botched "he said-we said". We do not have a way to know who is telling the truth and who is not.