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JaKaTaK: TheSandbox Efficiency Expert[Other] (youtube.com)

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[–]ZergPCHSC2 8ポイント9ポイント  (37子コメント)

How can someone lower ranked than me teach me how to play better?

[–]Sinlow0 10ポイント11ポイント  (27子コメント)

Seems like something out of the Onion doesn't it? In the beginning it says "Hotkey effiency and Mechanical Analysis" but this guy is Gold league, how could he possibly be an expert on either of those? A mechanics expert should be low Masters easy even with weak strategy.

I get a low GM/high masters player being able to point out stuff to pros who are better than them but this Jakatak guy is literally Gold league, why would anyone listen to him?

[–]Milleniumasmodchan 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

pillars of le community XDDDD

[–]ProtossAnthony356 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (18子コメント)

Just because someone isn't GM at the game doesnt mean they can't see and point out mistakes and inefficiencies with hotkeys and such...

[–]PrimebmanCO 3ポイント4ポイント  (17子コメント)

It doesn't mean that they can't, but it means that they're immensely less qualified to do so than someone who is vastly better at the actual game. If someone is advertising some super-efficient playing method, it's not unreasonable to expect them to actually be able to win games with said setup at a moderately competitive level (which gold league is not). If someone in gold league told a GM they have a superior method that will help them to win more, the GM will assume that person is full of shit 10/10 times.

[–]ProtossAnthony356 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

Even the best players in the world have coaches, and those coaches are almost always worse players than them. Game knowledge and in game skill are not the same thing. You can't tell me jak doesn't put time into the game to learn as much as he possible can about it. Arguably more time than most people. I don't think it's fair to critisize him about this before you even see if it's effective or not.

Also remember that Jakatak isn't teaching strategy. He's not teaching people what build order or what army positioning will win people games. He's helping people with hotkeys. That's vastly different than talking strategy.

[–]PrimebmanCO 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

I'd argue that the vast majority of SC2 coaches worth their salt are easily high masters or low GM at least. And players at that level are not even close to being as good as top GMs, much less pro gamers. You need high level experience to know what works and what doesn't in Starcraft, even with things like hotkey setups. It's been a long time since I was actually good at the game, but when I start a new account I can pretty easily make it to diamond by doing almost nothing but WOL style 4 gates. If getting to diamond can be as simple as crisply executing one of the most famous/simple one base builds in SC2 history, why would I trust a single shred of playing advice from someone who can't even make it out of gold/plat?

[–]ProtossAnthony356 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

Didn't jakatak create "The Core," a more efficient and ergonomic hotkey setup that's very widely used and accepted as a very good hotkey setup? Also, it doesn't take a GM player or even a diamond player to explain to a newer less experienced player how control click > double click, how to add eggs to a control group and why you'd do it. Again, it's not like he's teaching these guys strategy, he's teaching hotkey setups and ingame hotkey tricks.

[–]PrimebmanCO -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm aware of The Core from when he was pushing it on TL Strategy in WOL, and I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who plays at a respectably competitive level who has even heard of The Core much less used it. My point is, how do you know that his hotkey setup is more efficient if there are no results to back that assertion up? I think a newer player's money and time would be vastly better spent learning from someone who has achieved actual results with their setup.

[–]maellic 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

NXZ got to WCS premier league using The Core and PiG has recently switched to The Core. Also, he isn't charging any money. He is a resource for people in The Sandbox to use if they need him.

[–]PrimebmanCO 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

TIL. That lends it a bit of credibility if those players think it's actually improved their play appreciably, but they also obviously had very strong mechanics to begin with. I think the onus is still on Jakatak to show that he can use his own coaching tools to improve as a player. Unless he's just completely resigned to the fact the he really, really sucks at SC2.

[–]ProtossAnthony356 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/341878-thecore-advanced-keyboard-layout

He has some stuff in there about pro gamers and the like.

A hotkey setup can be objectively more efficient if you move your hand around the keyboard less to use it. If everything's within easy reach of at least one of your fingers, you spend less time scooting your hand around the keyboard and more time actually pressing keys. Things like mothership core (m) immortal (i) and patrol (p) come to mind that are on the opposite side of the keyboard. The default camera location hotkeys are on the wrong side too, and there are players - even up to a plat-diamond level - don't even know camera location hotkeys exist.

You also seem to have this odd assumption that any of this costs money. It doesn't. The proving grounds is free, the sandbox is free, the core is free. It's a giant environment full of people who just want to improve at the game, and are extremely productive and efficient about it.

[–]PrimebmanCO -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

It's a giant environment full of people who just want to improve at the game, and are extremely productive and efficient about it.

All I can say is I hope some of that improvement efficiency gets directed at the creator of all of these things, so he can figure out how to get out of the lower leagues. Until then, I would advise newer players to not waste their time.

[–]Zerghezakia1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

TLO recommends the core and PiG uses it. Check the TL thread.

[–]dismapsuxlol -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Then don't listen and just keep doing what your doing. Nobody's forcing you to take his input. One thing I don't agree with in league caring is if that if a person's league really affects the validity of their points then you should he able to find the gaping holes in their arguments without even looking at their league. People should just look at the facts and arguments as a stand alone thing, looking at a person's league is just going to give preconceptions and serve as a simpler way to disregard somebody's points. Instead of taking the facts at face value just look at their league and instantly disregard their input. That's kind of a cop out in my opinion.

[–]PrimebmanCO 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think it's perfectly valid to disregard someone's coaching advice when someone else probably offers coaching at the same cost, but has actual results to lend credibility to their coaching. Say you were looking for a doctor to perform a complex medical procedure, and find two: Doctor A, who has many years of successful clinical experience and positive reviews, or Doctor B, who is fresh out of med school/residency/whatever. You could say, "you don't know how good Doctor B is until you let them do your procedure", and you would be correct. But any reasonable person is still going to go with Doctor A.

[–]Zerghezakia1 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

There is NO PRICE ASSOCIATED WITH THE SANDBOX. Please watch the sandbox video before you make baseless claims about it.

[–]PrimebmanCO -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of high masters/GM players that could give you free coaching who would still be much more qualified to do so. One can still waste time without wasting money.

[–]Zerghezakia1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He isn't doing the coaching. Jak does not teach starcraft, he teaches ways to learn starcraft and he has coaches that are a part of TheSandbox who teach more finer things of starcraft.

[–]Elles_D -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

because people are retarded

[–]maellic -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

He was one of the main people working on The Core, a hotkey layout designed to be more efficient. He's put a lot of work into fine tuning The Core and it is a very well thought out layout. While he may not be good at the game, he DOES put a lot of time into working on hotkeys and unit mechanics/ interactions.

He's not trying to be a coach for any specific race, just trying to help people eliminate inefficiencies in mechanics which doesn't exactly take a vast amount of game knowledge to do.

[–]mannerfart 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Best coaches in sports are pretty much never the ones who were the best players.

[–]Dunedune 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, best coaches in sc2 would probably be ~master or GM instead of being pros.

[–]ZergAicy 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is a silly argument, nearly all coaches were competitive (but not the best) players before becoming coaches.

Jakatak has never been close to being competitive in sc2.

[–]kuya___ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He doesn't claim to coach anyone in 'TheSandbox'. It's more of a forum of different people discussing how to practice.

[–]ZergPCHSC2 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Steve Kerr was a great championship player and he was the second rookie NBA coach ever to win a championship with the Warriors. Btw your username made me lol

[–]Zerghezakia1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

  1. Rank does not equal Game knowledge.

  2. Jak doesnt really claim to coach anyone, he is providing a platform for other coaches and other experts to be the real coaches. He teaches how to learn, not how to play starcraft