26
27

JaKaTaK: TheSandbox Efficiency Expert[Other] (youtube.com)

Gowerly が 投稿

全 76 件のコメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A

[–]ZergPCHSC2 9ポイント10ポイント  (37子コメント)

How can someone lower ranked than me teach me how to play better?

[–]Sinlow0 9ポイント10ポイント  (27子コメント)

Seems like something out of the Onion doesn't it? In the beginning it says "Hotkey effiency and Mechanical Analysis" but this guy is Gold league, how could he possibly be an expert on either of those? A mechanics expert should be low Masters easy even with weak strategy.

I get a low GM/high masters player being able to point out stuff to pros who are better than them but this Jakatak guy is literally Gold league, why would anyone listen to him?

[–]Milleniumasmodchan 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

pillars of le community XDDDD

[–]ProtossAnthony356 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (18子コメント)

Just because someone isn't GM at the game doesnt mean they can't see and point out mistakes and inefficiencies with hotkeys and such...

[–]PrimebmanCO 3ポイント4ポイント  (17子コメント)

It doesn't mean that they can't, but it means that they're immensely less qualified to do so than someone who is vastly better at the actual game. If someone is advertising some super-efficient playing method, it's not unreasonable to expect them to actually be able to win games with said setup at a moderately competitive level (which gold league is not). If someone in gold league told a GM they have a superior method that will help them to win more, the GM will assume that person is full of shit 10/10 times.

[–]ProtossAnthony356 1ポイント2ポイント  (16子コメント)

Even the best players in the world have coaches, and those coaches are almost always worse players than them. Game knowledge and in game skill are not the same thing. You can't tell me jak doesn't put time into the game to learn as much as he possible can about it. Arguably more time than most people. I don't think it's fair to critisize him about this before you even see if it's effective or not.

Also remember that Jakatak isn't teaching strategy. He's not teaching people what build order or what army positioning will win people games. He's helping people with hotkeys. That's vastly different than talking strategy.

[–]PrimebmanCO 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

I'd argue that the vast majority of SC2 coaches worth their salt are easily high masters or low GM at least. And players at that level are not even close to being as good as top GMs, much less pro gamers. You need high level experience to know what works and what doesn't in Starcraft, even with things like hotkey setups. It's been a long time since I was actually good at the game, but when I start a new account I can pretty easily make it to diamond by doing almost nothing but WOL style 4 gates. If getting to diamond can be as simple as crisply executing one of the most famous/simple one base builds in SC2 history, why would I trust a single shred of playing advice from someone who can't even make it out of gold/plat?

[–]ProtossAnthony356 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

Didn't jakatak create "The Core," a more efficient and ergonomic hotkey setup that's very widely used and accepted as a very good hotkey setup? Also, it doesn't take a GM player or even a diamond player to explain to a newer less experienced player how control click > double click, how to add eggs to a control group and why you'd do it. Again, it's not like he's teaching these guys strategy, he's teaching hotkey setups and ingame hotkey tricks.

[–]PrimebmanCO -1ポイント0ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm aware of The Core from when he was pushing it on TL Strategy in WOL, and I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who plays at a respectably competitive level who has even heard of The Core much less used it. My point is, how do you know that his hotkey setup is more efficient if there are no results to back that assertion up? I think a newer player's money and time would be vastly better spent learning from someone who has achieved actual results with their setup.

[–]maellic 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

NXZ got to WCS premier league using The Core and PiG has recently switched to The Core. Also, he isn't charging any money. He is a resource for people in The Sandbox to use if they need him.

[–]PrimebmanCO 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

TIL. That lends it a bit of credibility if those players think it's actually improved their play appreciably, but they also obviously had very strong mechanics to begin with. I think the onus is still on Jakatak to show that he can use his own coaching tools to improve as a player. Unless he's just completely resigned to the fact the he really, really sucks at SC2.

[–]ProtossAnthony356 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/341878-thecore-advanced-keyboard-layout

He has some stuff in there about pro gamers and the like.

A hotkey setup can be objectively more efficient if you move your hand around the keyboard less to use it. If everything's within easy reach of at least one of your fingers, you spend less time scooting your hand around the keyboard and more time actually pressing keys. Things like mothership core (m) immortal (i) and patrol (p) come to mind that are on the opposite side of the keyboard. The default camera location hotkeys are on the wrong side too, and there are players - even up to a plat-diamond level - don't even know camera location hotkeys exist.

You also seem to have this odd assumption that any of this costs money. It doesn't. The proving grounds is free, the sandbox is free, the core is free. It's a giant environment full of people who just want to improve at the game, and are extremely productive and efficient about it.

[–]PrimebmanCO -1ポイント0ポイント  (7子コメント)

It's a giant environment full of people who just want to improve at the game, and are extremely productive and efficient about it.

All I can say is I hope some of that improvement efficiency gets directed at the creator of all of these things, so he can figure out how to get out of the lower leagues. Until then, I would advise newer players to not waste their time.

[–]Zerghezakia1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

TLO recommends the core and PiG uses it. Check the TL thread.

[–]dismapsuxlol -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

Then don't listen and just keep doing what your doing. Nobody's forcing you to take his input. One thing I don't agree with in league caring is if that if a person's league really affects the validity of their points then you should he able to find the gaping holes in their arguments without even looking at their league. People should just look at the facts and arguments as a stand alone thing, looking at a person's league is just going to give preconceptions and serve as a simpler way to disregard somebody's points. Instead of taking the facts at face value just look at their league and instantly disregard their input. That's kind of a cop out in my opinion.

[–]PrimebmanCO 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think it's perfectly valid to disregard someone's coaching advice when someone else probably offers coaching at the same cost, but has actual results to lend credibility to their coaching. Say you were looking for a doctor to perform a complex medical procedure, and find two: Doctor A, who has many years of successful clinical experience and positive reviews, or Doctor B, who is fresh out of med school/residency/whatever. You could say, "you don't know how good Doctor B is until you let them do your procedure", and you would be correct. But any reasonable person is still going to go with Doctor A.

[–]Zerghezakia1 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

There is NO PRICE ASSOCIATED WITH THE SANDBOX. Please watch the sandbox video before you make baseless claims about it.

[–]PrimebmanCO -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of high masters/GM players that could give you free coaching who would still be much more qualified to do so. One can still waste time without wasting money.

[–]Zerghezakia1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He isn't doing the coaching. Jak does not teach starcraft, he teaches ways to learn starcraft and he has coaches that are a part of TheSandbox who teach more finer things of starcraft.

[–]Elles_D -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

because people are retarded

[–]maellic -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

He was one of the main people working on The Core, a hotkey layout designed to be more efficient. He's put a lot of work into fine tuning The Core and it is a very well thought out layout. While he may not be good at the game, he DOES put a lot of time into working on hotkeys and unit mechanics/ interactions.

He's not trying to be a coach for any specific race, just trying to help people eliminate inefficiencies in mechanics which doesn't exactly take a vast amount of game knowledge to do.

[–]mannerfart 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Best coaches in sports are pretty much never the ones who were the best players.

[–]Dunedune 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, best coaches in sc2 would probably be ~master or GM instead of being pros.

[–]ZergAicy 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is a silly argument, nearly all coaches were competitive (but not the best) players before becoming coaches.

Jakatak has never been close to being competitive in sc2.

[–]kuya___ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

He doesn't claim to coach anyone in 'TheSandbox'. It's more of a forum of different people discussing how to practice.

[–]ZergPCHSC2 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Steve Kerr was a great championship player and he was the second rookie NBA coach ever to win a championship with the Warriors. Btw your username made me lol

[–]Zerghezakia1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

  1. Rank does not equal Game knowledge.

  2. Jak doesnt really claim to coach anyone, he is providing a platform for other coaches and other experts to be the real coaches. He teaches how to learn, not how to play starcraft

[–]GEAa2 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol and what qualifications does Jakatak have that make him an Efficiency Expert? Gold league account and making youtube videos are not credentials. Just shows this whole Sandbox thing is a joke

[–]live4APM 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is literally an advertisement. Mods, please.

[–]Ssunnyday 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Efficiency Expert

I need a taller bookcase to put my kek

[–]GEAa2 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

Ok I just watched the beginning of this guy's stream doing his "Terran multitask training". He made his orbital at something like ~24 supply and, I'm not even joking when I say this: when he sends his SCV to scout for an opponents base(this was 4 player map) he re-clicks where to send the SCV every half screen length so it takes him at least 10 clicks to scout the bottom right on 4 player map. It appears that he doesn't know that he can just use one click at where the opponent could be in the bottom right and the SCV will go there.

Mindblowing that anyone would take efficiency advice from this guy

[–]SBENUAvexyli 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

He's practicing multitasking at the simplest level.

He's not practicing build orders, or anything of the kind. You're pretty silly to go in expecting intense APM spamming everywhere.

[–]SK Telecom T1KESPAA -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

Listen, I like JaKaTak, but lets not pretend building a OC on 15 is some insane build order that takes your focus away from multitasking.

[–]SBENUAvexyli [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You miss the point, he's just doing random things to keep him multitasking.

[–]SK Telecom T1KESPAA [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

But if you're practicing multitasking, shouldn't you be trying to keep to a plan (real world conditions), not just randomly tapping stuff?

[–]Zergunexpected_pedobear [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

At what point was getting an OC on 15 a "practice" for build order. Its not some INSANE strategy that will deviate from him "practising" his multi tasking. Not just that, what exactly was he multi tasking in the situation given by OP? Moving his scv every half a screen? This is like trying to practice an alleyoop when you can't dribble the ball.

[–]SBENUAvexyli [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You completely miss the point. He's not multitasking specific things, just getting in the hand of multitasking in general.

[–]Zerghezakia1 1ポイント2ポイント  (11子コメント)

ITT: people assuming that experience and game knowledge doesn't matter because this guy doesn't have time to play SC2. And people assuming he is advertising for coaching himself when really he is advertising for his input into the sandbox.

in his stream and he said, very clearly, he hasn't had time to play starcraft because he has been organizing these programs and making videos. Anyone who doesn't actually ladder will obviously have their mmr decay down to a lower level. The whole point of the sandbox is to provide an alternative to the ladder anyways.

You guys realize that Artosis and Tasteless probably are Gold league because they don't have time to play, Yet I guarantee any one of you would take coaching from them. Starcraft is their career and they are extremely knowledgeable. Coaching ability and ladder rank are not directly related.

[–]SK Telecom T1KESPAA -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

You guys realize that Artosis and Tasteless probably are Gold league because they don't have time to play, Yet I guarantee any one of you would take coaching from them.

I really don't think this is the case anymore. The only casters that universally have people sucking their dick is Rottie and Nathanias, and for good reason.

[–]Zerghezakia1 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

My point is that they have game knowledge that would be beneficial, yet they are probably gold league on ladder.

[–]SK Telecom T1KESPAA 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

Artosis is low masters on KR which is still better than most. No one would buy coaching from Tasteless unless they were just paying to hang out with him. I don't think he has played since 2011.

[–]Zerghezakia1 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

Coaching from Tasteless would still be valuable, he has game knowledge, just because he doesn't have the actual mechanical skill means nothing about coaching. When you coach someone, you aren't sharing your skill, you are sharing your knowledge.

[–]SK Telecom T1KESPAA -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

Tasteless would still be valuable, he has game knowledge

I'm not sure if you're trolling me.

[–]Zerghezakia1 [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

I'm definitely not. The football coach analogy makes perfect sense. A football coach has knowledge about the game and researches it, even though if he were to play he would probably suck, doesn't make him a bad coach.

This is all assuming that JaK is the one coaching starcraft which, as i have pointed out in other comment threads, he isnt, he is providing a platform for coaches who are part of the sandbox and is also giving his input with the game knowledge he has, please watch the other sandbox video because it makes it a ton more clear.

[–]Zergunexpected_pedobear [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

You realize Tasteless' role in the duo is the hype caster right? He does the job well but that's not something you need in depth game knowledge for - that's artosis' job.

[–]Zerghezakia1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I mostly included tasteless for completeness sake. Even if tasteless still doesn't my point is still that: As a coach you share knowledge, not skill. Jak isn't even advertising himself as a coach for starcraft2, he is advertising for teaching people the best ways to train and he has other people who are actually skilled and are coaching. The fact that he is gold doesn't make him any less qualified to give the advice that he has. Point me to one occasion where he has advertised himself for something he isn't qualified for.

[–]SK Telecom T1KESPAA [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Can you point to one instance in the past 3 years where tasteless has shown good game knowledge? I'm not even talking about mechanics, I'm talking about game knowledge.

I not even talking about Jak.

[–]Zerghezakia1 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I don't see how someone can't have game knowledge when starcraft 2 is their job.

[–]SK Telecom T1KESPAA [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Tune in to GSL and witness it.

Many play-by-play casters have low game knowledge, but they have an analytic caster to make up for that.

[–]ZergRiquiz -3ポイント-2ポイント  (8子コメント)

That was a really REALLY cool video, can't wait to sign up after my exams end.

[–]live4APM 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

What part was cool? The part where a guy stood infront of a mic and advertised?

[–]galan-e 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

He doesn't make money out of it. Advertise? It's a project meant to help. Why would you oppose advertising it even if you don't like it?

[–]live4APM 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

You dont need to make money out of it to grow your subscriber list, collect emails, and spread your name.

Just because he doesnt make money directly, doesnt mean this isnt advertising.

[–]galan-e 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

Let's say this is, in fact, the case

So what? He produce a lot of starcraft content and tries to help. Why do you care if he also earns something from it? (and tbh I find it hard to believe he earns a lot from all of this. He isn't that big and youtube isn't that profitable)

[–]live4APM -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

I dont care, but this is an obvious advertisement.

[–]galan-e 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

..so what? Why bash it down?

[–]live4APM -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

If the front page was flooded with ads, would you still visit this board?

Imagine having 10-15 posts a day offering 'help'.

[–]galan-e -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That sounds fantastic, very welcoming to new guys and provide a lower skill floor required to play.

[–]mangoyodle 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

I just went to this dudes stream to ask his rank after seeing so much advice on this subreddit and never seeing him in a tournament. He was playing vs random people, said he didn't ladder. I asked what rank he was - he said "league doesn't matter". It was at that point I couldn't take anything this dude said seriously. League is a DIRECT reflection of skill. You can pretend to know all you want, results matter.

[–]Zerghezakia1 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

League is only a DIRECT reflection of skill when you actually play ladder.

[–]Zergunexpected_pedobear [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I mean for someone who's advertising the most uber optimal way of practice its pretty funny he can't get out of gold.

[–]Zerghezakia1 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I don't see how it's funny when he DOESN'T PLAY LADDER. If he played a bunch of ladder and grinded games and STILL couldn't get out of gold, maybe I can see your point.

[–]Zergunexpected_pedobear [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

So he plays against AI? you realize even unranked games are based on an mmr? - you don't get faced with random opponents. If his opponents are consistently gold while he's playing unranked then he's at that level..Or if he's not playing games at ALL - how would one know how effective his "methods" are? (but this isn't the case, he does play games on unranked).

[–]Zerghezakia1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

He DOESN'T PLAY and the way he is talking about practicing is not about vs ai or unranked games. He doesn't play ladder period. Please research what he is talking about with deliberate practice. Watch the sandbox video where he explains what it is. We know how effective his methods are because there is a team of people, called the sandbox, who use this method and have had major improvement, me being one of them.

In his stream, today, was him saying he was playing for the first time in a long time, because he has been busy making videos and constructing theSandbox

[–]mYinsanityDogofWarSc2 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Should I just do it?

[–]Axiomwtfduud 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do it tomorrow, unless you already said that yesterday.

[–]Gowerly[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Make your dreams come true.