全 155 件のコメント

[–]bitcoinstudent 62ポイント63ポイント  (30子コメント)

Also greeks just straight up don't know about bitcoin and don't trust anything that isn't cash. So it's important to promote education about it first, not just encourage people to buy into something they don't know about.

[–]arcrad 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's public image really. Once the pulse of society (or what have you) "thinks" bitcoin is a good option, then people will pile on.

[–]Noosterdam 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look at the dark markets. People there only talk about Bitcoin when it is completely necessary to mention, and always in an off-hand way. They don't care about or believe in Bitcoin. But they all use it. Sort of like no one talks about the Internet. That is what real adoption looks like.

If the Greeks run to Bitcoin en masse, it will look like people simply using it to send money overseas, maybe through something like Abra where they won't even know they're using Bitcoin. If they crack down on Abra then maybe people will know a little about Bitcoin, but nothing more than necessary and most won't share the interest we do here. Or, they will use it to evade whatever control they are actually faced with, whether that's border controls, cash bans, gold confiscation, hyperinflation, or whatever. They will only familiarize themselves with the minimum necessary to use it, and they won't be talking about it explicitly much. They'll just buy it like a jock buys a computer, focused completely on what they need it for, following some step-by-step instructions passed around on social media or offline word of mouth.

[–]vakeraj 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You hit the nail on the head. Any trend in society- cultural, political, technological- occurs because people "feel" it's catching. For decades, most of the US was opposed to gay marriage, until people felt the tide turning and jumped on the bandwagon. Change occurs slowly, hits a tipping point, and then occurs all at once.

[–]gonzobon 14ポイント15ポイント  (11子コメント)

I feel that they are going to begin not trusting cash soon enough.

[–]justwritecomments 9ポイント10ポイント  (9子コメント)

I don't know about that. Certainly not trusting banks, but people are trying to get their cash out of the banks before the banks take it. That doesn't mean they will stop trusting the pieces of paper. Just the people they give the pieces of paper to. Not trusting banks might help to aid understanding of the need for bitcoin, but it won't reduce people's trust in the money itself. Well unless there is massive inflation as a result.

[–]zombiecoiner 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's just it. Those pieces of paper aren't going to hold their value. If there is grexit and default, euro will probably weaken. Part of the EUR trust cache is about it being a solid economic block and a grexit also puts that in question.

[–]justwritecomments 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's pretty unlikely to look as bad as bitcoin has looked for the last year, so average people aren't realistically going to be jumping to use bitcoin as a store of value.

[–]btc-ftw 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

All we need is a slow sustained rally for that picture to suddenly make 1000+ look inevitable. And btc has been gently bouyed.

[–]zombiecoiner -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not saying they automatically jump to Bitcoin, which I agree is extremely unlikely en masse. All they have to do to amplify the effect is to choose any other currency. The dollar, yen, rub, whatever.

[–]bob_blob 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I doubt the Luddites will be proven right...

[–]deggen 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I heard someone talking about all euros having codes on them so they know which country they were issued in. So Greek euro notes have serial numbers on them which could be used to void them. Anyone else heard of this? Just a rumour?

[–]justwritecomments 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well I mean Euros should be valid all over Europe, and yes it's pretty obvious based on the design of the notes/coins. You may get German Euros in Greece and vice-versa.

Invalidating Greek Euros would maybe be possible in that regard but would achieve a slightly different goal and penalize people who just happened to have Greek Euros in their pockets. Probably would hit Greece hardest, but it would seem like a crazy approach.

[–]btc-ftw 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Money in Hawaii was stamped with a big red mark during ww2. If the islands were taken red stamped usd would have been declared not legal tender.

[–]hotoatmeal 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's scary when money threatens to become non fungible.

[–]BitcoinCollege 6ポイント7ポイント  (13子コメント)

Best education is practice and repetition. Greek Bitcoiners should organize meet-ups and have people install wallets, also introduce changetip and bitaddress.

Have the people get the touch and feel of Bitcoin.

Education alone is never enough and ever evolving. Do it, organize it. Have people feel the neutral power of Bitcoin.

[–]roveboat 7ポイント8ポイント  (12子コメント)

Yeah, I'm sure changetip (of all things) is what the Greeks really need now, all they need is to post tons of BTC praise around Reddit and just wait for the tips to roll in. Then with all their tipped BTC they can just.. starve, I guess, as I doubt many Greek stores will be interested in taking BTC (as they need fiat too to buy more stuff for the store), regardless of their knowledge of changetip.

You're presenting BTC (and changetip) as somehow a magical solution to Greeces problems without seemingly any understanding of the situation or how BTC might even apply to it.

[–]Miz4r_ 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

The problem is that you lack vision, something many people in positions of power lack nowadays sadly. During a crisis such as this we humans have an opportunity to change things, to change the status quo that locks us in a position of debt slavery and dependency on centralized financial institutions. BTC will not solve all our problems overnight, but it can be a huge step in the right direction and thus the more people practice and try to understand and work with it now the closer we come to BTC becoming a workable alternative and solution. We need people with vision who can organize and educate, not naysayers who can only passively sit there and shake their head while the world comes crashing down around them.

[–]roveboat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay. It's all about vision, got it. I'm happy to comfortably say that my vision indeed does not include BTC - while the blockchain is an interesting idea and might have some use in the future, BTC as it is will not be the one. (Why? It's pretty much a pre-mine at this point, not to mention the technical difficulties still being wrangled)

[–]marcus_of_augustus -4ポイント-3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Colour me skeptical but what use is someone who can "organise and educate" in the middle of a chaotic panic?

At that point, you want leaders who know how to kick asses and pull triggers.

[–]FreeToEvolve 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah yes, when stuff gets really bad we want violent and impulsive leaders who can use their authority to punish and hurt people, not intelligent organizers who can bring people together to solve problems.

[–]BitcoinCollege 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

dude, with Changtip the Greek learn that money can flow, not freezed at will by any dictatorship or democracy.

/u/ChangeTip, 100 bits

Yes, it's magical. People still believe that random printed paper out of ATM is magic. Some call it mass hypnoses.

[–]BakGikHung 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

i'm all for this. Where do I find greeks to tip ?

[–]SoundOfOneHand 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

You don't need changetip for that, it's just another (somewhat scammy IMO) product in the bitcoin ecosystem that makes one niche thing - tipping on social media sites - more convenient. It doesn't do anything particularly interesting that bitcoin itself doesn't already do, and just like with any other social media outlet, you are essentially their product by handing them a bunch of your personal information.

[–]hotoatmeal 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Plus, look at their value proposition.... They're never going to make money as a tipping service. Their game plan has to be to make money as a sells-your-personal-information-business.

[–]changetip -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

/u/roveboat, BitcoinCollege wants to send you a Bitcoin tip for 100 bits. Follow me to collect it.

what is ChangeTip?

[–]roveboat -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

dude, with Changtip the Greek learn that money can flow, not freezed at will by any dictatorship or democracy.

Yeah, because there is no other way to learn about money. Like, say, giving each other pieces of paper and metal which have perceived value. And yeah, Changetip certainly cannot be frozen at will by anyone (like, say, the people holding commit keys to core or entities that control the biggest mining pools or entities that could throw in a lot of hashing power at will or the people controlling Changetip wallets etc etc). Ever. Right?

[–]btc-ftw 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hard to buy stuff for the store if foreign transfers blocked. Bitcoin unaffected. I'll bet the price of essential imports skyrockets.

[–]roveboat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wait, the suppliers in Greece are selling for BTC? That's pretty awesome. Otherwise, you know, it would be just as hard to restock (fiat or BTC) but with BTC the seller has no idea when he can redeem that payment or how much fiat he will get for it (which he needs to restock). It just doesn't make sense, except from a speculation POV - which is pretty popular round these parts.

[–]TheSecretMe 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

And rightfully so. At the moment bitcoin is only usable because it can be converted back into traditional currency easily.

It's not a sound investment. It's not a usable currency. Pretty much the only use it has at the moment is acting as a transfer medium.

Ie. I want to buy something and the seller has some kind of service implemented that converts my currency into bitcoin which is immediately converted back into the seller's currency. Neither of party being stupid enough to want to hang on to the bitcoin and watch it's value flop about like a spastic fish on dry land.

[–]intromatt 86ポイント87ポイント  (35子コメント)

Cheers from Peraia, Greece as I wait in line at an ATM.

In a country where a huge % have yet to send an email, people need cash not invisible money.

...shit, try to find a restaurant that will accept my Visa card... Nope.

It's all cash here for many obvious and not some obvious reasons.

[–]crbncll 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

people need cash not invisible money.

Thank you for making this clear. Got downvoted for posting something like that yesterday.

Good luck with the ATM!

[–]hiddensphinx 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

Did the ATM work?

[–]intromatt 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

I was able to take €40 from my Bulgarian account and I can take as much as I need from my Canadian account.

I bought a tank of diesel with my Canadian visa last night with no issues.

Edit- Greeks can take €60 per day till next week.

Regular CC transactions (where available) continue to work. PayPal and Google Wallet work gloriously (my wife gets paid with PayPal).

[–]penny793 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is that a way to get around the capital controls? Just transfer money to paypal or google wallet and pay using the paypal or google wallet card?

[–]intromatt 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. If I was Greek I would have dumped all my funds into PayPal.

[–]shadowofashadow 4ポイント5ポイント  (19子コメント)

Isnt' the problem with non-cash payment methods the risk of not getting paid down the line? Doesn't bitcoin solve this just as well as cash does?

[–]alarm_test 6ポイント7ポイント  (18子コメント)

The primary reason that Greek businesses ask for cash in hand, is the same reason that people ask for cash in hand the world over. Tax avoidance.

The bitcoin blockchain is a terrible solution if you want no record of your transactions.

[–]pluribusblanks 3ポイント4ポイント  (15子コメント)

The primary reason businesses are cash only is because of credit card fees. Also, they can't just decide to accept credit cards. They need to apply for permission. If they get permission, they still have to assume charge-back risk. Cash has none of these drawbacks, because cash is money in hand. Bitcoin is money in hand, requires no permission, and requires no exorbitant fees.

[–]alarm_test 7ポイント8ポイント  (14子コメント)

The primary reason businesses are cash only is because of credit card fees. Also, they can't just decide to accept credit cards.

No, the primary reason is tax evasion.

Any business can arrange to take cards if they really want to.

Yes, there are problems with set-up, charge backs and costs, but those apply to businesses worldwide.

By far the biggest driver is tax evasion.

[–]Noosterdam 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

If their reason is tax evasion, they're going to have a problem crossing borders with that cash. If only there were a way to cross borders with money without anyone knowing...

[–]alarm_test 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

If their reason is tax evasion, they're going to have a problem crossing borders with that cash.

Well that assumes that they have any intention of taking money across borders, rather than just launder it.

[–]tomuchfun 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

To launder, you pay taxes..... And you have to set up some shell company, where you had a legit company to start with....

The correct response was, assuming they want to leave the country, or EU boarders are very lax because they're all EU countries.

You don't launder to avoid paying taxes, you launder to pay taxes on illegally gotten money.

[–]alarm_test 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

No, you're taking a very narrow view of money laundering.

Yes, if you get your money from selling drugs, you may well run that money through a legitimate, tax paying business to launder it. Paying tax is a good way to not bring attention on yourself.

But the point of laundering is to hide the origin of the money from the authorities.

When it comes to tax evasion, you can use the cash to pay for services or to buy assets that will not bring the source of that cash to the attention of the authorities.

Still money laundering, just not the type you usually see on TV.

[–]tomuchfun 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

If you're buying things like gold or diamonds or shit that can be easily hidden, sure, but at that point why not just hang onto the euro, and you're money is as good as useless once you get it back out unless you're planning on spending it like pocket change. If you're buying something like cars or property, you're asking to get audited.

I'd still be pretty leery of buying tons of metals or things like that, because typically your name is on paper somewhere.

If you're buying food, or TVs, or things like that, I'd hardly call it laundering.

I think the end objective for anyone laundering in Greece would be to make the money as legal as possible to get it in a bank account outside of the governments rule.

[–]pluribusblanks 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Any business can arrange to take cards if they really want to.

Demonstrably false. Every business in every country has to apply for permission to accept credit cards, and that permission can be denied by the controllers of the credit card networks for any number of arbitrary reasons. Gambling? Permission denied. Live in the wrong country? Permission denied. Selling the wrong product? Permission denied. Wikileaks? Permission denied. No one needs permission from anyone to accept Bitcoin. Just like the hard cash that people in countries with economic upheaval love to accept.

No, the primary reason is tax evasion.

What is your source for this assertion? When accusing someone of a crime, evidence is required. You cannot just assert that everyone who accepts cash is guilty of tax evasion.

[–]alarm_test 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Any business can arrange to take cards if they really want to. Demonstrably false. Every business in every country has to apply for permission to accept credit cards

How do any of your exceptions apply to the vast majority of businesses?

If a Greek restaurant wants to take credit cards, they can.

They don't because they want to avoid tax.

All of your reasons apply to restaurants in London, New York, Tokyo, Berlin etc etc

Why do most of the restaurants in those cities take credit cards, but the majority in Athens don't?

Tax evasion.

What is your source for this assertion? When accusing someone of a crime, evidence is required.

Don't be ridiculous. If I wanted to bring criminal charges against an individual I would need to provide evidence.

Which individual am I bringing charges against?

You cannot just assert that everyone who accepts cash is guilty of tax evasion.

I didn't assert that. I asserted that tax evasion is the main reason for only transacting in cash.

[–]pluribusblanks 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

How do any of your exceptions apply to the vast majority of businesses?

You didn't say the vast majority of businesses. You said 'any business'. Your statement is false. Permission is required to use a credit card.

If a Greek restaurant wants to take credit cards, they can.

If they get permission, for a fee, with charge-back risk. Without permission they cannot accept. Permission can be denied to any business, Greek or not.

They don't because they want to avoid tax.

So, still no evidence for you assertion. Citation needed.

All of your reasons apply to restaurants in London, New York, Tokyo, Berlin etc etc

That is correct. Permission is needed to accept credit cards in every city on the globe. A fee is charged to accept credit cards in every city on the globe. Accepting credit cards includes accepting charge-back risk in every city on the globe.

Why do most of the restaurants in those cities take credit cards, but the majority in Athens don't?

Have you never been to NYC? Many, many restaurants in NYC do not take credit cards. I ate at a restaurant yesterday in suburban USA that does not take credit cards.

There are plenty of reasons not to take credit cards as an honest business - permission required, fees charged, and charge-back risk. Credit cards and banks assert that cash only businesses are somehow breaking the law. There is no evidence of this. If you know all of these cash only businesses are evading taxes, then you should report them to the authorities. In point of fact you have no evidence of tax evasion. You are making a blanket statement with no facts whatsoever to back it up. There is nothing shady about not accepting credit cards.

Especially for low margin businesses, not having to pay credit card fees could be the difference between being profitable and not being profitable.

[–]alarm_test -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh stop being so bloody naive.

Tax evasion is rampant in Greece and that evasion is by far the biggest reason for the extensive use of cash.

None of this is seriously contested by anybody who knows Greece.

Maybe you can start your education here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8509244.stm

Anyone who has ever been at the mercy of the American health system knows that even if you are critically ill, many hospitals will not let you near a doctor until they have swiped your credit card.

In Greece, if you try to pay for private treatment with a credit card, even the most distinguished surgeon might raise his eyebrows and click his tongue, which means: "What part of no don't you understand?" Because the doctor wants cash. Stelios is one of the few doctors who will give you a receipt. He declares his income to the taxman and pays his proper dues to the state. As opposed to many of his colleagues who are pillars of Greece's thriving black economy.

[–]pluribusblanks 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nothing in that article presents any evidence whatsoever. It simply makes the same assertion you are making, that business who do not accept credit cards must be evading taxes with no evidence presented. Your own citation says that the doctor who does not accept credit cards "declares his income to the taxman".

The only naivete in play here is the public allowing itself to be pushed to only use transaction methods that are fully controlled by banks, and can be turned off at any time. We have seen this in Argentina, Cyprus, Ukraine, and now Greece. Right now, Greeks access to their own money in the bank is being limited. Bank accounts can be turned off, credit cards can be turned off. Bitcoin works without permission for any person and cannot be turned off. Cash has the same feature. A person does not have to be a tax evader to recognize the utility of having money the access to which cannot be revoked by a bank.

[–]Lynxes_are_Ninjas 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

This needs a source.

[–]alarm_test 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Start with these

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8509244.stm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/24/greece-collecting-revenue-tax-evasion

Anyone who has ever been at the mercy of the American health system knows that even if you are critically ill, many hospitals will not let you near a doctor until they have swiped your credit card.

In Greece, if you try to pay for private treatment with a credit card, even the most distinguished surgeon might raise his eyebrows and click his tongue, which means: "What part of no don't you understand?" Because the doctor wants cash. Stelios is one of the few doctors who will give you a receipt. He declares his income to the taxman and pays his proper dues to the state. As opposed to many of his colleagues who are pillars of Greece's thriving black economy.

I find it hard to believe that people don't realise that the main reason for "cash in hand" is tax avoidance, without or with sources.

[–]ebaley 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

Inivisble money? That's what's in your bank account. It's all digital.

[–]intromatt 1ポイント2ポイント  (5子コメント)

Sure, but I can covert it to paper for free* at the 100 ATM machines that are nearby.

*I pay 77 cents/month

[–]ebaley 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

...shit, try to find a restaurant that will accept my Visa card... Nope.

If you want to pay with Bitcoin sure you're out of luck - using it as a store of value or for getting funds out of the country is another matter.

[–]intromatt 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

I used a bank transfer when I bought my condo in Bulgaria. I transferred money from Canada to Bulgaria and it was under $50.

Yes, for the whole purchase price of the property and it only took 2 days (the fee also included opening a new account in BG, new credit card and 2 bank cards).

Monthly bank fees here at 77 cents/month + 50 cents if I take money out of a 'weird' ATM machine. Online banking is also free, although the Android app sucks-ass.

I think it's a pretty good deal considering the amount security and recourse.

[–]ebaley 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Banking is not free in Ireland, where I'm from. Fees for everything. If you think Bitcoin is dispensable what are you doing here?

[–]intromatt 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.

Yes, banking is not free, they are for profit businesses...just like Bitcoin payment processors are.

[–]ebaley 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How is it hard to understand? Do you actually own any? If you're fully in Bitcoin it's usage is practically free and unhindered.

[–]zombiecoiner 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank you for visiting. How did you happen upon this sub? How is android phone penetration there? How do people get their news primarily?

[–]Poromenos 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Android penetration is about 60%, the rest is iOS. I think some grandmothers still use feature phones, though.

[–]PhiMinD[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Did you happened to read the title?

Its not about Greece buying BTC

[–]Polycephal_Lee 32ポイント33ポイント  (1子コメント)

Additionally, it's not just about restriction of payment, it's about sound money. The reason Greece default is such a large issue is because the money supply of the Euro is over 90% debt at the moment. That is unsound money. In the case of widespread default it means 90% of your money vanishes. This is much more serious than not being able to send some money out of the country.

Capital controls are about keeping money in the fractional reserve system to prevent it from breaking. But when you have to forcibly keep capital in the system, it's already broken.

[–]pyalot 17ポイント18ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's also about systemic collapse. Everybody knows, proponents and opponents alike, that the way we run our monetary system and economy cannot work. Keynes knew it, every central bank knows, every investor knows it, every politician and even everybody on the street does.

The major disagreement isn't if you can stave off a weak economy with deficit spending and print your way to prosperity. The major disagreement is how long you can kick the can down the road before you have to endure drastic structural reform.

Just as everybody knows that our system can't work, everybody knows that when that system collapses, or hits a major bump in the road that'll make 2008 look harmless and we cannot rely on the system to work anymore, we will make do with whatever is working.

Historically we all know what will work. Sound money, will. And we know what sound money is, it's gold (or seashells, or what have you), anything that's not encumbered by default with third party risk. Something you can take upon your person and present it to somebody else. Something that needs neither a military, banking system or government to prop it up.

Whenever shit hit the fan in the past, sound money is what we reverted to. This has been going on for thousands of years. The only problem we have this time that we had the audacity invent a new world. A world in which things only go smoothly if you can transfer money trough a global network. And here is the problem, you cannot send sound money like gold without third party risk trough that network.

Bitcoin (and its derivatives) that rely on proof of work is the only form of sound money that can accommodate the world we built around us, and if shit hits the fan, it will be called upon to do exactly that.

[–]behindtext -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

so you're telling us you're long seashells?

how am i supposed to get all those seashells through customs?! :)

[–]c4p0ne 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

After having read this entire section, it surprises me that no one has mentioned one of the most important things that Bitcoin requires in order to be properly bootstrapped into communities:

Vendors and people must start accepting it for products and services. Why do people always seem to forget, or put this at the bottom of the list? Permit me to use myself as an example. I've got plenty of BTC that I would just LOVE to start liquefying LOCALLY. But with ZERO vendors, or even freelancers accepting Bitcoin for some sort of service, my Bitcoins are simply stuck with me.

The summary is: Owning Bitcoins and educating people as to how to properly acquire, transact, and store them securely is certainly important, but simply NOT enough. Brave people need to step forward and start physically accepting Bitcoins for their products/services.

[–]RayLewis_KilledAGuy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Excellent point, but we are still in the fledgling early adopter days. Events like what is happening in Greece will at the very least bring up the conversation of what will be feasible going forward. And once (if) the snowball gets rolling, I reckon it will roll pretty fast.

[–]PhiMinD[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think the bots are malfunctioning guys...

[–]evoorhees 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed - few if any Greeks are buying Bitcoin. Any price surge is A) the rest of the world seeing the importance of an asset without counterparty risk, and B) speculators making bets on A).

[–]BitsenBytes 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

well said...

[–]gr8n8au 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

agreed, there have been many storied published about how Greece is good for bitcoin - and even if it's not true it makes people think about and understand WHY bitcoin is good for Greece

[–]yeh-nah-yeh 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

We are going to need bigger blocks :)

[–]satoshinakamotorola 18ポイント19ポイント  (51子コメント)

How is Bitcoin going to fix anything in Greece? Greece suffers from underinvestment and difficult access to credit. Greece suffers from corruption and tax evasion. Have you guys even tried to understand anything about the Eurozone crisis? Quantitative Easing has nothing to do with it.

[–]ihsw 5ポイント6ポイント  (11子コメント)

It fixes capital controls, not the socioeconomic conditions that led us here.

[–]satoshinakamotorola 3ポイント4ポイント  (10子コメント)

But evading capital controls is only going to worsen those socioeconomic conditions... That's why there are capital controls in the first place...

[–]btc-ftw 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

No. The controls are in place because there aren't enough physical Euros so a soft landing must occur. You can feed a family basic food for 60 euro a day. What would happen if you fed out the last euros to mattress stuffers and then went completely dry? Those who didn't hoard physical money would starve.

But the economy still thrives on exchange. Another currency, be it gold silver or bitcoin, adds to that ability to exchange.

[–]satoshinakamotorola -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

You are just being contrarian and 100% talking out of your ass. Watch that tone maybe. Bye!

[–]trrrrouble 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Try and address the argument, seems sound to me.

[–]Noosterdam 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you believe in government central planning. Bitcoin should be pretty scary for anyone who thinks that way, though.

[–]MyDixieWreck4BTC 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you didn't put the boat in a creek full of shit to begin with, you wouldn't be paddling through a shit creek.

[–]satoshinakamotorola 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The sort of simplistic thought that leads nowhere.

[–]ihsw 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Fixing socioeconomic conditions shouldn't be the responsibility of individual account holders. If they want to move their money then they should be free to do so without interference.

We shouldn't even have to resort to such drastic actions, the ineptitude of the Greek government got us here. The Greek people have lost faith in their banks and their governments, that is the issue here. Fix that and there wouldn't be bank runs.

[–]satoshinakamotorola 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's convenient to simply point the finger at the Greek government but that's simply not what the reality is. The Greek government could have simply signed the dotted line and kept getting payments from the ECB. What Tsipras and Varoufakis are doing is trying to stop funnelling money into the debt black hole and make that money actually do work. It's the Eurozone that just won't look at what's actually wrong. I guess that's what you get when you put 20 people around a table and try to make decisions. The inertia is strong in this one.

[–]ihsw 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Who created that debt black hole?

If I take out a loan for $100M and I have a long history of being aggressive, defensive, and evasive with my creditors, and I don't have solid account managers on staff to help me plan, track, and spend that money -- am I really in any position to complain when I get cut off?

They had their chance to make that money work when they got it the first time (and with every debt extension and debt lifeline), and now that chance is gone. Now the black hole is too big, and it's time to let them try things on their own.

Now it's time to let the Greek people decide for themselves whether they want to hang their leaders out in the streets for letting things get so bad, or eat the shit sandwich that Tsipras and Varoufakis have served them.

[–]satoshinakamotorola 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

and now that chance is gone

What are you talking about? Tsipras can sign the agreement tomorrow morning. The crisis could be over with one signature. What Varoufakis is refusing to do is get Greece into further recession so Germany can buy it off for cheap.

https://youtu.be/ex20y_p3Qv8?t=2032

[–]saxon84 -5ポイント-4ポイント  (38子コメント)

Greece has a massive debt problem, and the elite are looking to rectify the problem by looting Greek bank accounts. Bitcoin is the only real solution.

[–]satoshinakamotorola 9ポイント10ポイント  (34子コメント)

The real solution for who? How? Can you be specific?

[–]ITwitchToo 7ポイント8ポイント  (32子コメント)

For the regular guy in the street. Presumably by holding a currency which is not subject to government intervention (be it devaluation, just straight up seizure of funds, or capital controls). Right now, you can't draw more than $66 per day from ATMs, and anybody who bought bitcoins before this limit was imposed would have no such problem.

That doesn't imply a fix for the larger problems in their economy, however.

[–]satoshinakamotorola 3ポイント4ポイント  (8子コメント)

Fair enough. It's already too late though, capital controls are on.

[–]zombiecoiner 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

Right, and now it's a cautionary tale for others that the money in their bank accounts is just slightly less trustworthy.

[–]satoshinakamotorola 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

I would add though that the Greek population using Bitcoin would only make things worse for Greece. People using Bitcoin means further capital flights and tax evasion. Perhaps this can be added to the Tragedy of the Commons textbook.

[–]zombiecoiner 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

From what I can tell, their government is completely ineffective so instead of bolstering your TotC volume, they may start a serious attempt toward Liberland's aim. Taxation is possible with Bitcoin just as it is possible with cash. With Bitcoin as a foundation, there is no reason for capital to fly.

[–]satoshinakamotorola 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

But Greece isn't only about Greece... A lot of the Greek debt is in other countries (Italy is the third largest holder of Greek debt for instance). The domino effect is real.

[–]NorthernerWuwu 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Greece has almost nothing to do with Greece in fact. They'd probably fully bail out Greece if it were not for the concerns regarding Italy and Spain.

Instead we may well see a dissolution of portions of the EU and that's a bit interesting/scary.

[–]Noosterdam 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Although you may not agree with the economic argument, many would say that these dominoes need to fall in order to rationalize the economies leveraged up on debt, and that it is far better that they fall sooner rather than later.* The idea being that not allowing the bust part of the business cycle where misallocation of capital gets recognized and rectified just delays the collapse and makes it bigger, hurting more people.

I know you probably disagree, but the point is it's hardly non-controversial to simply say that we should prop up every failure, never letting any dominoes fall. To say so conclusively requires a resolution to the larger debate over economic schools.

*For example, Ludwig von Mises:

There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.

[–]zombiecoiner 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absolutely. In the world of finance, this is like the Olympics, Superbowl, and FIFA World Cup all happening at the same time.

[–]tsontar 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And thus the subject of this post.

[–]roveboat 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Right now, you can't draw more than $66 per day from ATMs, and anybody who bought bitcoins before this limit was imposed would have no such problem.

Um, how, exactly, would this work? There just would be Greeks on Localbitcoins that would be super happy to trade their fiat cash (eg. the only form of money accepted when you need to buy food) to bitcoins, because .. why? You'd sell your BTC on Bitstamp and then.. what? How would you get your fiat into Greece?

There needs to be a counterparty that's interested in doing that for it to work. In the current Greek situation, I doubt there would be many people interested in selling fiat for BTC.

[–]ITwitchToo 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think people in Greece are not withdrawing euros from ATMs because they want to spend them immediately, but because they don't want to lose their money in a bankruptcy/seizure.

[–]padkontrol 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's ridiculous to think they want to spend it, especially now.

[–]ITwitchToo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then we are in agreement.

[–]barbequeninja 4ポイント5ポイント  (15子コメント)

Where in Greece can you buy food with bitcoins?

[–]ITwitchToo 2ポイント3ポイント  (14子コメント)

You raise a valid point, which I myself raised only yesterday.

Still, personally I would prefer to be in possession of my money than at the mercy of the banks and the government in this kind of situation. At least you can still make transactions with the people who do value bitcoins, right? I also wouldn't be surprised if you could persuade somebody who hasn't heard of bitcoins before to take them -- after all, they will want to keep doing business too and they can't do that if people don't have money.

[–]anti09 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Still, personally I would prefer to be in possession of my money

It's not money if you can't use it for anything. Greeks might as well trade their Euros for beanie babies for all the good it would do them. Banks can't seize those either, and they're equally worthless to a Greek trying to buy food.

[–]ITwitchToo 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Let's be realistic here. If you had a gold coin, you might not be able to buy food with it directly in the supermarket either, but you sure as hell can find somebody who is willing to exchange it for other currencies.

[–]Noosterdam 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly. Who is arguing that BTC will help Greeks buy food? It will help them if they leave the country and are prohibited from taking their cash. It will help them if they need to support family overseas but are prohibited from doing so or are heavily taxed. It will help them if they need a store of value and gold gets confiscated.

ITT we see how few people understand what the merits of BTC are at this point in the adoption curve.

[–]ITwitchToo 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ITT we see how few people understand what the merits of BTC are at this point in the adoption curve.

Many of the people ITT are trolls, it couldn't be clearer to me. BTC is volatile, it has problems with mass adoptions, it doesn't have a fundamental use if nobody wants to take it (unlike gold, which still has its physical properties). All of these things are true. I'm just saying that BTC cannot be seized or controlled like bank accounts, and people are arguing against it. It's bizarre.

[–]barbequeninja -1ポイント0ポイント  (9子コメント)

Yeah, I think crypto is the future of currency, and honestly any transaction that must be verifiable....

That said I don't think a guy in Greece with $30,000 equivalent of bitcoin will be doing any better than a guy with $30,000 in a Greek bank for the next month or two (usd equivalent)

[–]saxon84 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

A Greek debit card is now limited to 60 euros a day, whereas a bitcoin wallet has no limits. I don't think people should have 100% invested in bitcoin, a more appropriate solution would be a combination of: physical cash/ gold/ silver and bitcoin. Having that setup makes a big difference vs only having a Greek bank account.

What if a family member gets sick, and you need to spend 200euro in travel costs to visit them...... How are you going to pay if your savings are stuck inside a greek bank?

[–]barbequeninja 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

How do you pay for that travel with a bitcoin wallet?

[–]saxon84 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

travelexpedia, or convert to physical cash using localbitcoins.........

[–]anti09 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Or gold / silver, for that matter? Is /u/saxon84 going to walk up to the train station and offer to shave them off a slice of a Gold Brick in exchange for a ticket? It's a laughable proposition.

[–]esterbrae 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That doesn't imply a fix for the larger problems in their economy, however.

It may do precisely that, with a bit more infrastructure in place.

[–]NorthernerWuwu -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

What the hell does that even mean? If someone had taken out all their money in Euros they then could have bought Bitcoins with it?

If they had their money out they wouldn't have a fucking problem.

[–]ITwitchToo 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay, here it is, real simple:

  • Money in the bank: you don't control it

  • Money in the blockchain: you control it

[–]captainmao -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

For the middle class financial plebs (P.S. basically everyone)

  • who live in other country that have been flirting with a public debt emergency (Italy, Spain) for decades,
  • who don't have a political class to represent their interests (chronic governance crisis)
  • and whose economy is now intertwined with that of Germany and Greece more than ever.

These people will find themselved vulnerable to

  • european governance failure
  • systemical economy failure due to high level of corruption, inefficiency, low competitiveness compared to emerging economies, lower influence/help from the USA due to the cold war ending and a radical redefinition of strategic real politik locations.

If you're part of the economic elite, you can easily dodge a State's default, by leveraging on corruption, privileged access to financial services, insider informations, etc, the same way you can evade taxes and pilot the public machine for advantages now.

The difference now is that P2P finance enables legitimate tools, easily deployable by virtually everybody, with much lower barriers to entry, to achieve protection from a corrupted State or from an economic failure.

[–]ThomasVeil 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Bitcoin can be a solution to some small part - namely moving money when the banks don't like it.
The core problem though is that (especially) the rich don't pay any taxes. Bitcoin will make that worse not better.

[–]hotoatmeal 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The core problem though is that (especially) the rich don't pay any taxes.

It sounds more like the core problem is that the government spends money it doesn't have.

[–]ThomasVeil 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And do you want them to save on pensions / healthcare and food for homeless?
I think we'll turn in the same circles as everyone else. Someone has to make one radical change.

[–]ameanbitcoiner 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

What was that company...neo something? That jacked up the trust factor for btc over there. Always something working against it.

[–]zombiecoiner 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

A simple scammer, Danny Brewster with Neo&Bee. Greeks should be on the lookout for anything similar. Marketing too slick. Nothing verified. Caveat emptor.

[–]aint_no_fag 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not quite sure if it even got sufficient attention to be harmful. I guess it was mostly people from around the globe BUT greece buying into N&B.

[–]octave1 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ok - Imagine a greek pensioner has 10.000EUR saved up and in anticipation of a Greek economical meltdown spends all his money on BTC.

How does he buy food?

[–]russian-judo 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's no shortcuts, some shopkeeper (or even more... someone who grows their own food, owns an allotment, keeps chickens, whatever) decides they want bitcoins too for the same reason as the pensioner, and thus looks for and hopefully finds people like our pensioner willing to swap bitcoins for goods an services. The trade networks will adapt and adopt as they see fit. Some always will, more would build on that.

[–]Vibr8gKiwi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Investors will discover bitcoin goes up when everything else goes down and will buy in also. True non correlated assets are rare and good to have.

[–]the_sunship 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just wait until they get the people on TV saying "The government has taken my money!" This, from the people who right now are supporting the president's decision to basically burn as many credit bridges as possible. What a joke!

[–]hellyeahent 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

or... traders open longs because its good info and after realizing profit will sell :) [me]

[–]killer_storm -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah yes, previously we didn't know that capital controls exist...

[–]BTCisGod -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Shouldn't we switch to smaller blocks? Only requires a soft fork!

[–]hexmap -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's also about pump'n'dump schema on news

[–]chinafinancial 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cool, and I'm glad that I've found this lifeboat earlier on. :)

[–]redhawk989 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

No. It's about greece pushing up the bitcoin price.

[–]PASSO3058 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

LOL... I agree with both of you and OP as profound statements. :-)

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]tsontar 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hey, try reading the post. Where it says, "it's not about Greece" that means, we weren't talking about Greece.

    [–]jeanduluoz 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It's like you didn't even read the thread title. Amazing