上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 234

[–]duplicitous 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is a vague and stupid rule that will be applied inconsistently and not actually achieve its goal of improving the quality of discourse on this forum.

I like it, now ELS finally feels like a grown up forum!

[–]-Ex- 36ポイント37ポイント  (18子コメント)

Edgy McCarthy memes aside, can we actually get some detail on what this decision means...? Will you be banning communists now?

-- Yours Sincerely, another self-complacent liberal (totally NOT a commie).

[–]FacehammerCOINTELBRO 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

Speaking as a filthy Judeo-Bolshevik Red under the bed, we should never forget that libertarians are dumb from whatever point on the political spectrum you care to look at them from.

[–]aeter777 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is why I don't read stickied meta posts, choosing to do so was a horrible mistake. Can't we all just get along and agree libertarianism sucks ass? No? Okay, as you were.

http://i.imgur.com/Z1eIy.gif

[–]GhostofRFSClearcut America[S] -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes. What we don't tolerate is brigading.

[–]aeter777 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well then the answer to my question was obviously no (from some people at least) otherwise there wouldn't be a brigade.

[–]Majestic_United 25ポイント26ポイント  (5子コメント)

So what the mods are saying is that we cannot have an in-depth thorough discussion about the Bolshevik revolution in this sub? Or the divide between Lenin and Trotsky after the revolution? I am totally surprised and shocked. I thought this sub was all about making fun of Libertarians, not actually worrying about who actually browsed this sub on a daily basis. Nor worrying about the philosophical or political ideology of those who comment. Unless people are posting leftist talking points on /r/EnoughLibertarianSpam that belong on other sub reddits, but I have not seen it. Almost everyone understands that this sub is just for Libertarian mockery nothing more nothing less. Lighten up mods, there is not going to be some type of proletarian revolution on this sub anytime soon.

[–]ProlierThanThou 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Congrats, you've just ruined this subreddit.

[–]Varroun 23ポイント24ポイント  (6子コメント)

[–]TheYetiCaptain1993 28ポイント29ポイント  (27子コメント)

What is the actual % of people here that are fellow comrades? I mean, I know the whole point of this place is to jerk over Libertarians saying libertarian things, but I have always thought of myself is an "ideological guest" here, if that makes sense. There are a couple of things most of the people here (as far as I am aware) believe that disagree with on ideological grounds, but I really try not to go out of my way to start a political debate or pretend like this is another socialist/anarchist/communist sub.

[–]JoyBus147 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

Comrade checking in.

[–]HoneyD 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought most people on ELS were leftists, anyway comrade checking in

[–]skeletorsass 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

I have /r/FULLCOMMUNISM subscribers tagged so I can locate and support comrades in need, and this thread (and the sub in general) is absolutely full of us.

[–]RomanosIV 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm a socialist, but a pretty unconventional one. I have no problem with for-profit cooperatives as long as they're heavily taxed and regulated, I think a strong welfare state is essential even in a socialist society, I don't think "the withering away of the state" is at all possible or desirable, and I think democratic reform is more viable than revolution. So needless to say, I'm not exactly welcome in the commiesphere.

[–]goldstar971 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

These are pretty much my feelings as well.

[–]ButtsexEurope 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I too am a democratic socialist. So much so that my teacher actually called me one in class because of a 15 page essay I wrote which can be summed up as "fuck the American healthcare system".

[–]SixBiscuitPaid shill of a Ron Paul delegate[M,🍰] -30ポイント-29ポイント  (4子コメント)

I really try not to go out of my way to start a political debate or pretend like this is another socialist/anarchist/communist sub.

And that's pretty much what we're asking. The attitude that some posters have expressed is basically that only far-left/pure socialist/communists ideology belongs here and that if you don't agree with that political stance then you're a fake and a phoney and should leave.

We even had one person who got all bent out of shape over me recently banning for this because "the sub used to not be this way" and that I was obviously an interloper that was brought in recently.

That kind of self-entitled bullshit isn't going to be tolerated. This is our house and we welcome anyone who wants to make fun of libertarians. If a poster is not mature and rational enough in their political beliefs to recognize and respect that other people believe other things then they should feel free to leave now. Also we're free to make fun of your beliefs if you think that North Korea is a paradise and that Citgo gives all their profits to poor Venezuelans.** Anyone is free to say that I'm wrong about Uber or mint chocolate-chip being the best ice cream flavor. No one is getting banned for disagreeing.*

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*Unless you're advocating some sort of coconut ice cream or bacon ice cream.

** Also, I may bang the girl that you're currently stuck in the friend zone with while you sleep in the next room over. Sorry Brandon... wait not sorry.

[–]MyShitsFuckedDown2 31ポイント32ポイント  (2子コメント)

What a clown.

[–]Petros557 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unless you're advocating some sort of coconut ice cream

now that is a banhammerman i support

[–]LondonCallingYou 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

So socialists aren't allowed anymore..? Or communists? Isn't that like more than half the user base here?

[–]elsbot 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

Everything is rape or slavery except rape and slavery, which aren't that bad.

Snapshots:

I am a bot. (Info | Contact)

[–]Don_Quijoder 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

You got him bot. RFS will never know what hit him.

[–]VoteRonaldRayGun 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Labour supporter here(actual Labour/Labor principles, not whatever the fuck the parties have become), what the hell is this bull crap?

Don't come here starting shit with what is a major demographic, we come here to make fun of Libertarians and that's what it should remain. Instead of alienating an audience try just adding a no shit post rule or no outside linking rule.

I browse FULLCOMMUNISM and enjoy myself without being an arsehole, if anything it would fit Libertarian's view of the sub even better. Support conversation, support criticism, ban people who start shit when it's not wanted.

[–]TruePoverty 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

Lol this fucking thread.

[–]Artful_Bodger 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Damn commies are infiltrating everything we hold dear -- including our subreddits!

Ben Carson In 2014: Communists Have “Infiltrated Our Society”

[–]Will_Dollar 14ポイント15ポイント  (32子コメント)

Am I a dirty godless commie bastard? yes Do I keep that in my dirty godless commie bastard subreddits? Also yes. This is a place for mocking libertarians, nothing more. There are lefty subreddits for leftist discussion.

[–]Mc_B 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

What's happening here?!?!?!

[–]_throawayplop_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I... I don't get it...

[–]die_civ_scum -1ポイント0ポイント  (52子コメント)

I think advocating luring Uber drivers and beating them is at least as stupid and vile as some of the stuff I see posted from the AnCap subs.

[–]itstimeforcake 5ポイント6ポイント  (51子コメント)

Do you think that kind of dumb shit is representative of most commies, in the same way most libertarians are selfish racist manchildren?

[–]die_civ_scum 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Probably on reddit.

[–]SixBiscuitPaid shill of a Ron Paul delegate[M,🍰] -48ポイント-47ポイント  (37子コメント)

Pretty much. Libertarianism and communism are both political ideologies that ignore the reality of the way that humans behave. They see complex problems as simple problems with simple solutions. Both of their proposed solutions are completely unworkable.

[–]itstimeforcake 35ポイント36ポイント  (5子コメント)

Wow well I'm glad we have enlightened liberals who really know what human nature is like.

https://xkcd.com/774/

[–]xkcd_transcriber 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Image

Title: Atheists

Title-text: 'But you're using that same tactic to try to feel superior to me, too!' 'Sorry, that accusation expires after one use per conversation.'

Comic Explanation

Stats: This comic has been referenced 765 times, representing 1.0963% of referenced xkcds.


xkcd.com | xkcd sub | Problems/Bugs? | Statistics | Stop Replying | Delete

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

I don't identify as a "Marxist" or "Communist" (despite being pretty far left) but i can safely say my position is backed by a comprehensive understanding of the topic. I could spend days detailing what i find to be disagreeable in Marx's theory of the State and the idea of a "common plan" (and what is agreeable in his analysis of history and society), detailing why the Leninist interpretation of Marx is a particularly flawed philosophy, why i think "Marxism-Leninism" and Maoism to be an incoherent and idealistic mess, what is and isn't valuable in Marxist theories in modern day academia and socio-political movements and in what ways the many different Marxist tendencies differ from each other. There is a reason why Marx is the most influential thinker in the history of the social sciences and it is better to actually know what he was going on about if you are going to agree or disagree with him, and this is what i chose to do, unlike you smug, status quo hegemonic pseudo-"reasonable"-types.

And with this stated, it is clear to everyone here that you have absolutely no clue on what may or may not be the flaws of "communism". I doubt you can cite a single one of the "simple solutions" to "complex problems" that "dem commies" supposedly preach. I doubt you can even accurately explain what "communism" (in the political, theoretical or historical senses of the word) is with out sneaking in a bunch of silly hegemonic ideology with it. If you read a single Anthropology book all of your priors about "how humans behave" would turn to dust. As Emma Goldman pointed out "Every fool, from king to policeman, from the flatheaded parson to the visionless dabbler in science, presumes to speak authoritatively of human nature."

Whatever the ideology of the mod team is, it is pretty damn obvious to everyone that a community dedicated to mocking the most rabidly capitalist ideology ever is going to attract anti-capitalists, and no wonder, us anti-capitalists made up as much as 40% of your userbase for quite a long time and many of the most active and most well-read critics of Libertarianism here are anti-capitalist. And none of this was any problem for this sub in years before you mods decided to throw a fit because someone disagreed with you on Uber and because "oh-hey this sub isn't dripping with hegemonic ideological thought and we don't like this".

This situation is absolutely pathetic, and your attempts to save-face have only embarrassed you further. Please, reconsider your actions if you don't want to be complete fools.

[–]Bosco_Sauce 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

If you read a single Anthropology book all of your priors about "how humans behave" would turn to dust.

Recommendations? (serious request)

Also, I have no idea what is going on, you guys.

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Marcel Mauss's The Gift is a classic of the field. His analysis of how "primitive" societies are based on reciprocal gift-exchanges is completely counter-intuitive to people who are only accustomed to living under Capitalism, where the logic of commodity exchange is the norm.

David Graeber's Debt: The First 5000 Years is a very broad book that touches on many, many topics but also shatters many myths about "how people behave" by discussing the different ways that different societies have engaged with the concepts of "debt" and reciprocity over a period of 5000 years. Graeber analyses social relations from the POV of three competing moral principles: "Communism", "exchange" and "authority"; and argues that the three principles present themselves to different degrees and interact with one another in different ways in pretty much all societies. His point about how many social relations in the capitalist world are already "communal" (such as for example, raising a family, co-workers sharing resources to get the job done, etc) and how it is outright bizarre or even offensive when people try do away with this "baseline communism" is particularly eye-opening.

James C. Scott's The Moral Economy of the Peasant: Rebellion and Subsistence in Southeast Asia is an analysis of peasant life and rebellion in, uh, Southeast Asia. He point that in these societies life is predicated on the fact that starvation is the worst case scenario, so the social order is built around minimizing social risk for everybody and establishing long-standing ties of reciprocity and reliability rather than "profit-maximization" or competitiveness, and that attempts to impose a logic of "profit-maximization" or market-based insecurities upon these societies has led to catastrophic failure and severe resistance (even when they supposedly increase the income of the peasants, they lead to social polarization, class struggles and social instability/conflict). He points that the poverty in many peasant societies in the world today does not come from their "failure to develop" but by the contrary comes from the attempt to forcefully "develop" them by integrating them into the global world market.

Though not an anthropology book Elinor Ostrom's book Governing the Commons: The Evolution of Institutions for Collective Action is an analysis of how many societies have sucessfully self-organised to exploit and maintain common resources on a self-sustaining and mutually beneficial basis, and what is the basis in game theory for how these projects succeeded. It shatters many myths about "how humans behave" by showing that people can work together to maintain a common resource (contrary to ideas like "the tragedy of the commons") if they are given an adequate framework to do so.

If you know any person who is prone to making blanket statements about "how humans behave" or about "human nature" that are based on how we behave under Capitalism, show them any of these books and it will be an eye-opening read unless they completely fail to throughly engage with the work.

[–]Bosco_Sauce 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Way more detailed than I expected. Thank-you! I actually already have Debt, so I'll start there. I've read bits and pieces of Ostrom, and usually cite Hardin himself on his own reflections about the tragedy of the commons being a management issue not unique to socialist systems.

If you know any person who is prone to making blanket statements about "how humans behave" or about "human nature" that are based on how we behave under Capitalism

It's like...number 2 in the "defense of capitalism" apologist handbook. ;)

[–]The_Old_Gentleman 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

The naturalization of Capitalism is and has always been the number 1 tool for it's apologists. "That's just the way things are!" is the bedrock of all ideology.

[–]Bosco_Sauce 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This, combined with part of your summary of The Moral Economy

He points that the poverty in many peasant societies in the world today does not come from their "failure to develop" but by the contrary comes from the attempt to forcefully "develop" them by integrating them into the global world market.

reminds me of a quote by Krishnamurti put at the beginning of one of the chapters in The Spirit Level.

"It is no measure of health and well-being to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Not to say definitively that being well adjusted to the status-quo is necessarily bad or that the status-quo as a whole is necessarily bad. I just think it's a great quote that highlights the need to empirically question the status-quo. How else would you know it is working?

[–]TheYetiCaptain1993 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

edit: not even going to bother

[–]MrAnon515 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (16子コメント)

Is this thread brigaded? The vote values seem really disproportionate compared to the usual activity and comment frequency of this subreddit.

Edit: it's telling I was downvoted for this. I've generally tried to refrain from socialist/liberal debates in this sub for the last few months, but at this point pretty much every poster in this thread who doesn't explicitly say "I'm a proud communist" has been pushed deep into negatives.

[–]123rocket -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Enough Communist Spam, as it were?