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'Religion of peace' is not a harmless platitude: the West’s movement towards the truth is remarkably slow (blogs.spectator.co.uk)
Romanianastratin が 23時間 前 投稿
[–]wuts 119ポイント120ポイント121ポイント 21時間 前 (51子コメント)
The night after the Charlie Hebdo atrocities I was pre-recording a Radio 4 programme. My fellow discussant was a very nice Muslim man who works to ‘de-radicalise’ extremists. We agreed on nearly everything. But at some point he said that one reason Muslims shouldn’t react to such cartoons is that Mohammed never objected to critics. There may be some positive things to be said about Mohammed, but I thought this was pushing things too far and mentioned just one occasion when Mohammed didn’t welcome a critic. Asma bint Marwan was a female poetess who mocked the ‘Prophet’ and who, as a result, Mohammed had killed. It is in the texts. It is not a problem for me. But I can understand why it is a problem for decent Muslims. The moment I said this, my Muslim colleague went berserk. How dare I say this? I replied that it was in the Hadith and had a respectable chain of transmission (an important debate). He said it was a fabrication which he would not allow to stand. The upshot was that he refused to continue unless all mention of this was wiped from the recording. The BBC team agreed and I was left trying to find another way to express the same point. The broadcast had this ‘offensive’ fact left out.
The night after the Charlie Hebdo atrocities I was pre-recording a Radio 4 programme. My fellow discussant was a very nice Muslim man who works to ‘de-radicalise’ extremists. We agreed on nearly everything. But at some point he said that one reason Muslims shouldn’t react to such cartoons is that Mohammed never objected to critics.
There may be some positive things to be said about Mohammed, but I thought this was pushing things too far and mentioned just one occasion when Mohammed didn’t welcome a critic. Asma bint Marwan was a female poetess who mocked the ‘Prophet’ and who, as a result, Mohammed had killed. It is in the texts. It is not a problem for me. But I can understand why it is a problem for decent Muslims. The moment I said this, my Muslim colleague went berserk. How dare I say this? I replied that it was in the Hadith and had a respectable chain of transmission (an important debate). He said it was a fabrication which he would not allow to stand. The upshot was that he refused to continue unless all mention of this was wiped from the recording. The BBC team agreed and I was left trying to find another way to express the same point. The broadcast had this ‘offensive’ fact left out.
This is the cancer.
[–]FranceJacksambuck 71ポイント72ポイント73ポイント 19時間 前 (37子コメント)
In a way I empathize with the guy. He tries his hardest to convince himself that his prophet was good so that he doesn't have to choose between being a good muslim and being a good person. Unfortunately for everyone, his prophet wasn't good and muslims need to choose fast.
[–]Swedenpreciousdoggy 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 17時間 前* (32子コメント)
his prophet wasn't good
Are there any good prophets? All religion has outlived usefulness. Now we have fundamentalists and crazy extremists who are criminals that use religion as an excuse to form Mafia like terrorist groups and recruit aimless youths who will believe anything if you promise to feed them and give them a brotherhood. That is the reason why terrorism is so big in third world countries, it is easy to recruit an army of child soldiers into a Muslim jihad terrorist group because they have no food, no education, no future. There are many aimless youths in Europe now because of immigration from Muslim countries and shitty integration. That is the cancer.
[–]Fuck the EUArathian 38ポイント39ポイント40ポイント 17時間 前* (8子コメント)
Jesus, Budha and confucious off the top of my head. Not necessarily perfect (no human ever is hurhur) but, especially in the context of their times, they were fairly entrenched in the "good guy" side of things.
[+]ScotlandTomShoe スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11ポイント-10ポイント-9ポイント 16時間 前* (7子コメント)
I don't know, I feel like over the years plenty of death and violence have come about as a result of christianity despite christ's being a pretty enlightened guy. The link between the foundation of the religion and the nature of the culture(s) it inspires is, to me, tenuous at best. Most of this stuff happened so long ago that even when we do have a good idea of what actually happened, the popular record of it is so vague and so widely disagreed upon that the academic history is more or less irrelevant. Hell, the gospels were mostly written decades, even centuries after Jesus lived, be people who may or may not have known the man, and in the centuries since then there's been practically no end to the — often violent — differences of interpretation. People will claim that this or that holy book supports their view, whatever that view may be. Which of these views, if indeed any of them, it actually supports is pretty much irrelevant. You can make a decent case for most of these interpretations, but for the most part no one you're going to make the case to is going to give a shit one way or the other. Some people may see Islam as a religion of peace, others may not. Neither side is necessarily right or wrong, because religion, like all social constructs, is what you make of it. If people choose to make something awful of it, to me that's more a reflection of that person than the religion they use to justify their actions. The book itself is effectively neutral; it's what we make of it that's good or bad. I mean sure, there are plenty of fucked up things in the Quran, but it's not like every christian follows the gospels to the letter. People will pick and choose what the like and dislike however they see fit anyway, it almost doesn't matter.
[–]New Zealandoreography 23ポイント24ポイント25ポイント 13時間 前 (2子コメント)
Yes, but from everything recorded about the life of Christ he sounded like a decent person. Whether Christianity has become a good religion is a different matter, but I wouldn't dispute Christ was a good prophet or a good person. After all, he was meant to be the perfect man.
[–]boissez -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 11時間 前 (0子コメント)
Although he was a bit racist sometimes.
[–]ScotlandTomShoe -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 6時間 前 (0子コメント)
Sure, but I think the original point was that if you look at what we believe about Mohammed as a person from an historical standpoint, you can see how Islam could be a violent religion. All I'm trying to say is that that correlation doesn't really mean much of anything. Jesus, like you said, was a pretty decent person by all accounts, but in the 2000 years since he lived, there's been a lot of bad shit done in his name, same way there's been a fair amount of good shit too. Islam's no different. Mohammed may or may not have been a good person, but that doesn't necessarily need to have a direct impact on the way the modern religion is practiced.
[–]wonglik 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 13時間 前 (3子コメント)
I don't know, I feel like over the years plenty of death and violence have come about as a result of
True but if you just compare two persons, Jesus to Muhammad is like Bob Marley to Bismark.
[–]CanadaSilvanestitheErudite 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 13時間 前 (1子コメント)
Bismark was pretty good at preventing general european war though. I mean he caused some smaller wars, sure, but he managed to hold off the general collapse of diplomacy that led to WWI. Heck, he even predicted that things would fall apart 20 years after he died... and he died in 1890.
[–]wonglik 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 13時間 前 (0子コメント)
Bismark is probably considered to be positive person among Germans. But smaller nations that happened to live under Prussian governance are probably less happy with him. Ask average Polish person what does he thinks about Bismark and you will find him very unpopular. This is why I compared Muhammad to him. From point of view of average Muslim he is a positive person. From perspective of person who happened to live there and oppose his views he was a terrible one.
[–]ScotlandTomShoe -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 6時間 前 (0子コメント)
I'm not saying that isn't the case, I just don't think it has any real relevance. Jesus was, so far as we can tell, a pretty chill guy, but plenty of atrocities have been committed in his name alongside all the charitable acts and kindness he's inspired. No reason Islam can't go the same way just because Mohammed might have been an asshole.
[–]FranceJacksambuck 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 17時間 前 (22子コメント)
All religions are false and useless, true. But their prophets are just men, and like men, some are good, some are bad. And Muhammad is without question a bad man. A mass murderer, a warlord who wiped out entire tribes out of pure greed and bloodlust. He was worse than an overwhelming majority of humans, even in his time. Certainly worse than you and me, and worse than Jesus.
That is the reason why terrorism is so big in third world countries
Really? I don't see indians and chinese kill and terrorize as many people as muslims, yet according to your economical justifications, they should kill more. Same for their immigrants.
[–]Indiaperseus0807 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 15時間 前 (0子コメント)
India has plenty of religious violence.
[–]ScotlandTomShoe 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 16時間 前* (11子コメント)
Interestingly in Myanmar right now, Muslims are being violently repressed by Buddhists, of all people. Christians in central Africa are killing plenty of Muslims, as well as vice-versa. There really aren't hard and fast rules with these things. People will do what they'll do more or less regardless, and justify it however they see fit. One person interprets a text this way, another that way; some will ignore a passage, others play it up. In most cases the book isn't even what matters, it's what it inspires, and that can vary pretty widely.
[–]TheColorOfStupid 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 13時間 前 (8子コメント)
Are they killing people because of Buddhism? If not I don't see Buddhism has to do with it.
[–]ScotlandTomShoe -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 13時間 前 (7子コメント)
Yes.
[–]TheColorOfStupid 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 13時間 前 (6子コメント)
Nope. Your link doesn't support your claim. Killers who happen to buddhist is not the same thing as killing because of buddhism.
[–]ScotlandTomShoe -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 13時間 前 (5子コメント)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/969_Movement
http://time.com/3090990/how-an-extremist-buddhist-network-is-sowing-hatred-across-asia/
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/2/myanmars-buddhist-terrorism-problem.html
http://www.vice.com/read/is-burmas-anti-muslim-violence-led-by-buddhist-neo-nazis
They don't just happen to be Buddhist, they're conducting this violence for the sake of Buddhism at the direction of Buddhist religious leaders.
[–]TheColorOfStupid 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 13時間 前 (1子コメント)
What buddhist teachings are being used to justify these acts?
[–]European UnionPwndbyautocorrect 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 10時間 前 (2子コメント)
You're not answering his question. He's asking what part of buddhist teaching endorses this. If there is none, we can conclude that those riots are due to tensions between communities, not the religion itself.
[–]United States of AmericaMeep_Meep_Meep_Meep_ 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 16時間 前 (1子コメント)
Whats funny (and by funny I mean depressing) is watching people on Reddit talk about Myanmar, when they know nothing about whats happening over there. I've seriously seen people on /r/worldnews praise the Buddhists in Myanmar 'for standing up against Islamization of their country'
[–]ScotlandTomShoe -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 15時間 前* (0子コメント)
Well, I wouldn't expect anything less from that cesspool. I guess the point I'm trying to get at is that humanity is vast and varied, some of it good, some of it bad, a lot of it pretty ambiguous, but above all else complex — certainly far too complex to make such sweeping statements and expect them to hold any useful amount of truth.
[–]Swedenpreciousdoggy 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 16時間 前* (5子コメント)
No, they should not kill more, the economical justification is that more lost youths who have no education or jobs will be prone to radicalisation.
China had the Cultural Revolution which was anti religious. They burned and destroyed religious texts, idols and places of worship and jailed relgious leaders. A long time after that they had a stigma associated with religion. There are still fundamentalist Muslim terrorists in Xinjiang. They had problems with fundamentalist Christians a long time ago in the Taiping Rebellion. India has religious violence, they believe in honour killing, tribal fights and rapes, child marriage, because of religion. In the West people don't really care unless they rape tourists because they are not terrorizing us, they terrorize people in their own country.
Edit: /u/Jamsambuck
I don't see indians and chinese kill and terrorize as many people as muslims
I think you make a big mistake in assuming there are no Muslims in China or India. This is false. There are Muslims in Xinjiang, China. Muslim is a religion not a nationality or ethnicity like Swedish, Indian or Chinese. I have seen blonde Muslim converts in Sweden.
[–]Indiaperseus0807 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 15時間 前 (4子コメント)
Honour killings, tribal fights and rapes are not because of religion, they're just because of backwards mentalities.. Child marriage is, though, yeah.
[–]Swedenpreciousdoggy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 11時間 前 (3子コメント)
I am not well versed as you, is honor killing really not religious? A Muslim man in court said he has to be faithful to Allah and murder his daughter for rejecting arranged marriage or breaking curfews or something. Are fights with high body counts among the Catholics, Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs not because of religion?
[–]Indiaperseus0807 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 10時間 前 (2子コメント)
I am not well versed as you, is honor killing really not religious?
It's a bit complicated, to be honest.. honour killings are a very regional thing, and occur in very specific parts of the country, whatever the religion might be. So in, for example, Haryana, where honour killings are a huge problem, they happen across all religions, whereas they're almost non-existent in south or west India (where there are also plenty of Muslims). Also, I don't think Hindus use religion to justify honour killings.
Because it's so regional, I would call it cultural rather than religious.
Are fights with high body counts among the Catholics, Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs not because of religion
Those are, yeah. Sorry, when you said tribal fights, I thought you literally meant guerilla tribal violence, which happens in West Bengal and Odisha, but the driving factor there is communism, not religion.
[–]Swedenpreciousdoggy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 10時間 前 (1子コメント)
Honour killing happens outside India, if you look at the Wikipedia article every country has cases of murders usually involving the Muslims. Gays have been bashed or disowned by their family for being gay in for example Muslim and Catholic communities, the Westboro Church is infamous for doing this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people#Religious
[–]Indiaperseus0807 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 10時間 前 (0子コメント)
I know that they happen outside India, I was pointing that the motivating factor for them happening inside India is largely culture and not religion, because all religions do it in certain areas, and no religion does it in other areas.
[–]United States of AmericaMeep_Meep_Meep_Meep_ -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 16時間 前 (1子コメント)
A mass murderer, a warlord who wiped out entire tribes out of pure greed and bloodlust. He was worse than an overwhelming majority of humans, even in his time. Certainly worse than you and me, and worse than Jesus.
As someone who plans on specializing in Islamic history when I go to graduate school, I'm going to need a source on that (and Gatesofvienna.org doesn't count)
[–]AustraliaNowhrmn 18ポイント19ポイント20ポイント 13時間 前 (0子コメント)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Banu_Qurayza
Hope you'll be a real historian and not an Islam apologist.
[–]ScotlandTomShoe 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 15時間 前 (0子コメント)
Muslims will likely see that as a false choice. Whether they're modern, progressive, and normal, or reactionary and bigoted, I'd think most muslims are probably going to see themselves as both good people and good muslims.
[–]YouAreAnIndividual 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 5時間 前 (0子コメント)
He tries his hardest to convince himself that his prophet was good
He's trying his hardest to convince us that his his prophet was good
[–]A minha pátria é a língua portuguesaestaserrado -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 19時間 前 (0子コメント)
Ou então ele simplesmente pode continuar a ser um bom muçulmano e uma boa pessoa.
Or he could simply continue being both a good muslim and a good person
[–]FranceThouny -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 13時間 前 (0子コメント)
Unfortunately for everyone, his prophet wasn't good and muslims need to choose fast.
Er… what? I know Muslims who are also good people. They don't have to chose either, they can be both. Or did I misunderstand your comment?
[–]European Federationjtalin -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 12時間 前 (6子コメント)
On the flip side, being a person who works to "de-radicalize" extremists, his job would become far more difficult if he had allowed that part of the interview to remain.
The work that he does, which hopefully we all agree is of critical importance in times like this, hinges on building up mutual trust with the people he works with. That trust would quickly go down the drain if he was heard on a radio show where his belief in the "religion of peace" was publicly humiliated. How would he be able to impress that belief onto others after something like that goes on air?
[–]Romaniacbr777 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 12時間 前 (5子コメント)
If your entire work is based on a lie than you better get another fucking line of work. What kind of rational is that? We know what we're saying is a lie, but it's really for the greater good, trust us. Bullshit!
[–]European Federationjtalin -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 11時間 前* (4子コメント)
If your entire work is based on a lie than you better get another fucking line of work.
There's a rather large number of professions that would disappear if we followed your line of reasoning here. Lies are an incredibly useful tool, the society could arguably not even function without them.
His work is based on saying things that have the optimal effect and accomplish the best results. In his case, it is removing focus from the violent aspects of the religion, and instead cherry-picking only the more positive values that can be found in the texts.
Besides, as far as I'm aware, everyone agrees that the work he does is the work that needs to be done. So unless you have an alternative strategy that is not based in social engineering, you don't really have a valid argument here.
[–]Romaniacbr777 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 10時間 前 (3子コメント)
My argument is that he should base his argument on the fact that Mohammed was a man and as such was not perfect.
All this lets pretend the shit isn't there is what got the West in this fucking mess to begin with. The shit is there and you should be able to fucking deal with it if you want anyone to take you seriously.
Maybe you should reread the article in OP again, your line of thinking is exactly what it's arguing against.
[–]European Federationjtalin -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 10時間 前* (2子コメント)
His work would have been impossible if he had based it on that argument, because the difference between what he's saying and what the other person believes is far too large to establish a rapport and gain their trust. Like with many counseling-like activities, the client has to believe that you're "on their side" and you understand them (or their faith, in this case).
The shit is there and you should be able to fucking deal with it if you want anyone to take you seriously.
Dealing with it correctly does not involve being rash, stubborn or lashing out in anger. By doing that, you are only building walls that somebody else will have to work that much harder to overcome later.
I know, I'm just saying it's a very poorly constructed argument. He's preaching to the choir, but doing very little to make a convincing point.
[–]Romaniacbr777 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 10時間 前 (1子コメント)
I know, I'm just saying it's a very poorly constructed argument.
You keep doing what you're doing, it's been working perfectly already, clearly you won't change your mind until there's going to be attack near you. Unfortunate, but not unexpected.
[–]European Federationjtalin -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 10時間 前* (0子コメント)
The fact that you can't seem to make a coherent argument against what I'm saying and you're jumping out of the debate when confronted with facts only goes to show that what I'm saying is currently the only known way to deal with existing tensions.
This is a common trend too. First people complain about nobody wanting to "talk about the problem", but when we DO talk about the problem, they have very little to say.
clearly you won't change your mind until there's going to be attack near you.
Yes, I might change my mind if my judgement were clouded in anger by something that happened near me. But that would not make me right, it would only make me biased and incapable of reasoning properly.
All arguments made out of anger are toxic and destructive.
[+]TurkeyAlpy94 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10ポイント-9ポイント-8ポイント 12時間 前 (4子コメント)
Read the gooddamn wikipedia page, please.
[–]TurkeyZulfikarr 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 10時間 前 (3子コメント)
Berserk muslim detected
[+]TurkeyAlpy94 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13ポイント-12ポイント-11ポイント 10時間 前 (2子コメント)
Ignorant Islamophobe detected
[–]TurkeyZulfikarr 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 10時間 前 (1子コメント)
If I was ignorant about Islam I'd still be muslim.
[+]TurkeyAlpy94 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-12ポイント-11ポイント-10ポイント 10時間 前 (0子コメント)
So? Your interpretations didn't sit well with you. Does that change the wrong things she/he said?
[–]Romaniacbr777 18ポイント19ポイント20ポイント 12時間 前 (0子コメント)
I'm afraid that the West won't start to accept that Islam has a structural problem until a much bigger attack occurs.
[–]thalos3D 50ポイント51ポイント52ポイント 22時間 前 (9子コメント)
The 7th Century is waging open warfare on modernity, and modernity thinks it's cute and fluffy. Guess there's a reason why civilizations fall.
[–]Freddie_AppsHero 20ポイント21ポイント22ポイント 17時間 前 (6子コメント)
Same thing happened to the Romans. "Oh, these Germanians are so cuddly-wuddly... Hang on, has there always been so many of them?"
[–]DenEvigaKampen 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 16時間 前 (5子コメント)
Sounds interesting, got any more info thats what happened to rome?
[–]Freddie_AppsHero 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 16時間 前 (4子コメント)
There were numerous factors involved in the fall of Rome, but one of them was undoubtedly the over-reliance on German troops and leaders.
[–]Ỏ̷͖͈̞̩͎̻̫̫̜͉̠̫͕̭̭̫̫̹̗̹͈̼̠̖͍͚̥͈̮̼͕̠̤̯̻̥̬̗̼̳̤̳̬̪̹͚̞̼̠͕̼̠̦͚̫͔̯̹͉͉̘͎hmunkey 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 14時間 前 (3子コメント)
…and the inability to pay them. If you stop paying your best armies you're setting yourself up for disaster.
Those same Germans ended up conquering large parts of the former [western] Roman Empire and governing it as Roman successors, so they were very much aligned with Roman culture and considered themselves good Romans.
The Eastern Romans also hired Germanic troops, along with a large variety of soldiers from places across the Balkans and Middle East. Because they were able to pay them and keep their families safe, those troops never really turned on their government in the same way.
[–]Freddie_AppsHero 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 13時間 前 (0子コメント)
Another factor was that the East wasn't oppressing the Germans in the same way as the West. The West hired the same people that they were fighting against. So you ended up with guys who had the same idea as Arminius.
[–]StaticShock9 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 12時間 前 (0子コメント)
Except in the end it was the Germans that continued and the Romans did not. One civilization died and another began to surface.
[–]Czech Republicembicek 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 3時間 前 (0子コメント)
Sometimes the pay was in form of province free to plunder.
[+]European Federationjtalin スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8ポイント-7ポイント-6ポイント 12時間 前 (1子コメント)
Oh stop being such a drama queen. If they're waging open warfare, it certainly isn't very effective.
It would be even less effective if people wouldn't resort to hysteria and hatred every time something bad happens.
[–]Currently living outside the unionjugdemon -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 10時間 前 (0子コメント)
I fully agree. The irony is that the circulated hatred actually benefits the terrorists and is their main goal. They want us to hate every single Muslim for the act of few in order to be able to recruit many more Muslims. There are many well-integrated Muslims that you don't even notice until the topic of religion comes up. But when their whole cultural background gets vilified than it becomes much easier to get frustrated. Especially if you become guilty by association which a horribly stupid thing to do (by people who propagate against Muslims).
We are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of the evil Muslim by forcing moderate Muslims into the same corner as radicals and eventually they will become radicals themselves.
[–]Glorious YuropVileFrog 31ポイント32ポイント33ポイント 22時間 前 (29子コメント)
A religion that didn't upgrade from "eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek" will always breed murderous extremism.
[–]Berlino-soto-gari 26ポイント27ポイント28ポイント 21時間 前 (5子コメント)
They did upgrade though. Islamic countries were relatively moderate, by religious standards, during the 1900s. They just downgraded again.
[–]United States of AmericaRaven0520 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 15時間 前 (3子コメント)
Wahhabism has existed for hundreds of years though.
[–]ScotlandTomShoe 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 15時間 前* (0子コメント)
Yeah, but it didn't get big until after the fall of the Ottoman empire, and the creation of Saudi Arabia. Even before that, though, it was always seen as a revival movement. It was a reactionary response to the more progressive Islam of the time.
[–]ipito 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 14時間 前 (1子コメント)
No it hasn't, Wahabism is pretty damn new.
[–]United States of AmericaRaven0520 8ポイント9ポイント10ポイント 14時間 前 (0子コメント)
It was created in the 18th century by Saudi Arabs as a reaction to the more secular Islam of the Ottoman Empire and other ways of practicing the religion in Arabia that they considered heretical.
[–]common_senser -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 6時間 前 (0子コメント)
They tend to do well under sadistic dictators. Once you give them a little freedom they go all Mohamed-style.
[+]AJaume_2 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-29ポイント-28ポイント-27ポイント 22時間 前 (22子コメント)
Greece anyone? What I see is that crooked individuals in complicity with other in Western Europe managed to create a big problem, and now people that had no agency in that have to pay. So your culture is even worse: lets punish the innocent to save the guilty.
[–]Glorious YuropVileFrog 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 22時間 前 (21子コメント)
I won't even bother.
[+]AJaume_2 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-21ポイント-20ポイント-19ポイント 22時間 前 (20子コメント)
Oh, BTW, do you remember that extremely moderate Christian Anders Breivik?
[–]Romanian-born Americanatred 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 20時間 前 (12子コメント)
a nut vs. millions.
Can you claim that Breivik has any support in the Christian communities? ISIS unfortunately is supported by million of people, it's not an accident.
[–]AtomicGarden -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 18時間 前 (9子コメント)
Breivik was a right wing terrorist who slaughtered politically active children in the name of stopping leftism and multiculturalism. Reducing him to a "nut" ignores the dangers of his ideology.
[–]Romanian-born Americanatred 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 18時間 前 (8子コメント)
There are many people who don't like leftism and multiculturalism to get a gun and start to shoot people over that beside not being very Christian (you know the "turn the other cheek" bullshit) is pretty stupid because you end up in prison or dead. By definition only a nut or guy with very low IQ would do that.
[–]AtomicGarden -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 18時間 前 (7子コメント)
Okay by that definition all terrorists are just nuts or guys with very low IQs.
[–]Romanian-born Americanatred 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 18時間 前 (6子コメント)
Yes, they are. But the difference is they are supported by millions of people, when journalists from Charlie Hebdo were slaughtered many Muslims were like "oh well, they had it coming", "they deserved it", "they did a good thing". Poor people who don't know any better think that committing suicide-bombing of Western targets gets them to heaven. There's no such equivalent in the Christian societies.
[–]AtomicGarden 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 18時間 前 (5子コメント)
So did Breivik. He also gets thousands of letters a month from fans of his. This man says that Breivik is a hero with strong moral conscious. National Front and English Defence League members praise Norwegian mass murderer as 'inspirational' and a 'role model' Stop acting like right wing extremism isn't a real threat. The deadliest terror attack in the last ten years in Europe was committed by a man whose views would be welcomed on /r/European.
[+]AJaume_2 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-14ポイント-13ポイント-12ポイント 20時間 前 (1子コメント)
Yes, he has millions of supporters all over Europe and the USA, like you in fact.
[–]Romanian-born Americanatred 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 18時間 前 (0子コメント)
That's idiotic. First of all I'm an Atheist, but even if the dude was an Atheist he would not have acted with my support or in my name. He's a criminal, and not even crazy enough to be excused for his actions.
[–]Glorious YuropVileFrog 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 21時間 前* (2子コメント)
I'll go kill 100 people and claim I've done it for Taoism. Yes, I am aware of the no true Scotsman fallacy or whatever but you are comparing tens of thousands of Islam extremist with 1 individual who identified as Christian. It's beyond stupid.
Edit - identified as christian and sort of claimed to have done it in the name of Christianity, otherwise, of course, there are a lot of monstrous people out there that identify as Christians.
[+]AJaume_2 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11ポイント-10ポイント-9ポイント 21時間 前 (1子コメント)
So double standard.
[–]Glorious YuropVileFrog 13ポイント14ポイント15ポイント 20時間 前 (0子コメント)
actually it's the same standard - volume
[–]AtomicGarden 5ポイント6ポイント7ポイント 18時間 前 (3子コメント)
Breivik wasn't a practicing Christian he was a right wing terrorist who said he was "culturally Christian". He wanted to start a war where all native Europeans would join up and get rid of the non-whites. His views are more in line with /r/European than any religious group.
[+]A minha pátria é a língua portuguesaestaserrado スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10ポイント-9ポイント-8ポイント 17時間 前 (2子コメント)
No True Scotsman.
[–]AustraliaNowhrmn 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 12時間 前 (0子コメント)
You don't seem to understand that No True Scotsman applies where there are no rules to what someone is claiming to be, i.e., a Scotsman. If there was a rulebook of what a true Scotsman is and you had to meet those rules to be a Scotsman, you could indeed say someone is not a true Scotsman.
Religions have rules. We can use those rules to decide if someone is a true Christian or true Muslim.
[–]AtomicGarden 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 17時間 前 (0子コメント)
"I'm not going to pretend I'm a very religious person as that would be a lie. I've always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment"
[–]Y--Z 17ポイント18ポイント19ポイント 20時間 前 (4子コメント)
a WWMD (what would mohammed do?) morality is far move violent and intolerant than a WWJD morality.
[+][削除されました] 14時間 前 (1子コメント)
[deleted]
[–]Y--Z 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 12時間 前* (0子コメント)
there are people of all kinds that are destructive to society. but given two people: one who follows christianity, and one who follows islam, all other things equal, the latter will be a worse person.
an honest religious person if christian follows WWJD and if muslim follows WWMD.
mohammed was a conqueror, mass murderer, enslaver, and rapist.
jesus once whipped some merchants trading in a synagogue. his one violent outburst. that may have scarred!
we're dealing with 2 near opposite role models.
[–]IrelandCaisLaochach -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 9時間 前 (1子コメント)
Ah yeah, but that didn't stop Christianity endeavouring to set all the non-Christian parts of the world on fire.
[–]LancashireCaptain_Ludd -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 3時間 前 (0子コメント)
NO NO! DOWNVOTES FOR YOU SIR! do NOT break the islamaphobic circlejerk
thank fuck /r/europe doesn't represent the actual opinions of the avarage european. i imagine when these folks actually have something to live for, a couple things to fight for, and somewhere they can actually call their own (and not their mams place), their opinions won't come at such a cheap price
[–]AtomicGarden 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 19時間 前* (4子コメント)
The only people who I hear saying "Religion of Peace" are people saying it ironically to get free karma whenever there is an article about Islamisim posted on Reddit.
[–]FranceJacksambuck 25ポイント26ポイント27ポイント 18時間 前 (2子コメント)
Shame that Cameron said it yesterday.
[–]Indiaperseus0807 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 15時間 前 (1子コメント)
Votes are just IRL karma mate.
[–]FranceThouny 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 13時間 前 (0子コメント)
Amen.
[–]NederlandHomSig 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 11時間 前 (0子コメント)
Yet the same people who do that, also complain that muslims never dissociate themselves from the violence.
[–]United States of Americawadcann 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 17時間 前 (1子コメント)
In France, Britain, Germany, America and nearly every other country in the world it remains government policy to say that any and all attacks carried out in the name of Mohammed have ‘nothing to do with Islam’.
Because by-and-large, most people on both sides of the matter aren't particularly interested in a religious fight -- it isn't in anyone's interests. The only hope that someone who does want to convince the masses to fight has is to argue that religion mandates a religious war. The appropriate counter is to say that it doesn't.
[–]ScotlandTomShoe -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 15時間 前 (0子コメント)
The only hope that someone who does want to convince the masses to fight has is to argue that religion mandates a religious war. The appropriate counter is to say that it doesn't.
Exactly. Whether or not it does is beside the point. One side will want war either way, and the other won't either way; who, if anyone the actual text supports is beside the point. Religion has always been up for interpretation, and all too often people interpret it in a way that supports their political points.
[–]HappyReaper -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 12時間 前 (0子コメント)
What's extremely important to understand is that there is no "one" Islam, just like there is no "one" Christianity, or Communism, or any other belief or ideology that isn't concise enough to be understood the same way by everybody.
Like other religions, Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance for some, and one of war and conquest for others. The second subset is the one toxic for society, yet for some reason (maybe in order to create an easily recognisable enemy that makes tribalism easier) many outside of Islam insist on the idea that it is the only "real" version of the religion. Ironically, that is just playing into their hands, as (like the xenophobic subset of non-muslim population) what they want most of all is to be recognised as the one true face of their religion.
On the other hand, empowering the peaceful versions of the religion and helping them recover lost ground within their faith (even if from outside we of course believe there is no "true" form) is the only way towards ending the current situation with terrorism; yet accepting that the majority of Muslims don't fit into their definition of "the enemy" is unacceptable for some.
If the consequences weren't so sad, it would be interesting to observe how tribalism, which at some point of evolution helped humanity thrive, is now one of the main causes of our own undoing.
[+][削除されました] 21時間 前 (4子コメント)
[–]JB_UK[M] 28ポイント29ポイント30ポイント 18時間 前 (0子コメント)
1/2...1/4...1/8...
[–]AtomicGarden 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 18時間 前 (2子コメント)
I always seen these types of comments on well upvoted articles that never get deleted.
[–]CanadistanPhallindrome 15ポイント16ポイント17ポイント 17時間 前 (0子コメント)
Well, you wouldn't see them on articles that do get deleted, since they'd be deleted.
[–]Swedenpreciousdoggy 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 18時間 前 (0子コメント)
Preemptive action.
[+]redindh スコアが基準値未満のコメント-24ポイント-23ポイント-22ポイント 19時間 前 (10子コメント)
I do think that Islam when compared to the history of Europe and Christianity is relatively peaceful. Not peaceful as in "turn the other cheek all the time" but yeah more peaceful. Just think about this crazy thing. Up until the population expansion in the 20th century and the emigration that occured, Christians who lived in the Middle east made up around 20% of the population and today they are around 10%.
These were Christians who came under Muslim rulers in the 630s. 1400 years of Muslim domination and they are still there. They even survived the Crusader periods where Muslims were being killed off by Christians and the local Christians helped not only the Crusaders but also the Mongols. The diversity of religion that is native in ME countries is astounding. You have many Muslim and Christian sects and religious groups that are just traditional beliefs that persisted and evolved.
When you look at the native faiths in Europe you have homogeneity. England was for hundreds of years Catholic and all of the sudden they were a minority. Areas were Pagans used to be the majority up to the 1200s became Christian. Wherever the Europeans ruled became Christian majority. Kenya and Uganda for example was only ruled for a short period by the British and the non-Muslim groups in there are now Christians.
What the ME has right now is a political conflict which is based on the fact that the politics there is unnatural and dominated by forgieners. In the 50s and 60s secular Pan-Arab republicanism was thought to be the solution but the UK, France and the US worked with the Islamists to crush it. Later on it was socialism and but they also had the same problems and stagnated without any achievements. At the moment its Islam and its undergoing a revival. Their narrative is that for the region to unite and be freed from foreign domination the Muslims must unite and turn to God. ISIS has taken this to a crazy level. Yet the vast majority of people they kill and are fighting against them are actually pretty religious.
[–]Ozstraya, as we say.Feurisson 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 11時間 前* (1子コメント)
Cherry picking and religious dick-waving aren't cool. Comparing the history of violence and arrogance, Islam and Christianity are fairly equal. Both had episodes of co-existence with and persecution of others.
These were Christians who came under Muslim rulers in the 630s. 1400 years of Muslim domination and they are still there.
Even though their numbers are declining because of... take a guess. It's dishonest to point to Christian oppression while ignoring Islamic oppression.
They even survived the Crusader periods where Muslims were being killed off by Christians and the local Christians helped not only the Crusaders but also the Mongols.
Some times Muslims attacked Christians/Jewish much like Christians violence against others. Neither of these two religions looks any better than the other.
And sometimes Muslims persecuted other Muslims just like Christians sometimes persecuted other Christians.
The diversity of religion that is native in ME countries is astounding.
So astounding that there are more Zoroastrians in India than in Iran? so astounding that Baghdad was once 1/4 Jewish but now there is almost no Jews there? So astounding that Jews, Zoroastrians, Christians and Druze all have exoduses from their homes because their Muslim neighbours are just as bigoted as Christian kings of old?
When you look at the native faiths in Europe you have homogeneity.
Define homogeneity, Christianity is one of the most fractured religions. There were pagans who existed up until the 18th century and Jewish communities have been in Europe since Roman rule.
England was for hundreds of years Catholic and all of the sudden they were a minority.
Just like how Iran went from mostly Zoroastrian to mostly Islamic in a few centuries or Arabia from pagan to Islamic.
See what I mean about cherry-picking and ignoring one side's garbage while yelling about the other side's garbage?
[–]redindh 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 2時間 前 (0子コメント)
1400 years later. After surviving the Crusades and the Mongols and the colonisation they still make up 10% of the population in Egypt and Syria. Now tell me how many Europeans are still pagans? How many French men are still Cathars?
Some times Muslims attacked Christians/Jewish much like Christians violence against others. Neither of these two religions looks any better than the other. And sometimes Muslims persecuted other Muslims just like Christians sometimes persecuted other Christians.
No one has denied violence and oppression. What separates Muslims and Christian Europeans is the level of sustained attack. The Franks weren't simply happy with beating the Saxons. They had to persecute them, destroy their places of worship and force them to convert. Then a few centuries later the Christians united to forcibly Christianise Northern Europeans. The name Prussia comes from a Baltic people who were wiped out only because they happened to be pagan. The Cathars didn't bother anybody and not only were they wiped out but so were their catholic neighbours.
Muslims may have acts of violence and oppress people but they have never gone through the level of sustain campaign of extermination that Europeans have. That is why religious diversity exists in the ME and not in Europe.
Your desperate here. Most of the Zorastrians suffered when one dynasty in Iran decided to go nuts and slaughter a lot of people. Regardless of Muslims, Christians or Zorastrians. In fact most of their victims were Muslims. That is why Iran today is a Shia majority country instead of the Sunni majority it used to be. This is the only time it has happened in the ME.
Unlike Europe were countries rapidly moved away from Catholic and some were forced back. All of it was bloody and it was routine.
With the Jews the issue is political and you should know it if you bothered to do the most basic research. The Jews in the ME had to move away because of the creation of Israel. They lived side by side with Muslims for more than a thousand years and while life was never rosy, it was never as bad as Europe. European Jews with their Western mindset went and took over Palestine without consulting ME Jews. They kicked thousands of Muslims and Christians out and committed violent crimes to those who wanted to stay. The fear that it could happen to them made many people drive Jews out of their own country. Just like how Germans were driven out of Eastern and Central Europe and how Serbs were kicked out of Croatia in the '90s.
Well I meant specifically Pre-Christian faiths, Orthodoxy, Catholicism and reformed Christianity. Pre-Christian faiths were wiped out and haven't survived unlike the ME where Christianity and Judaisim stayed strong for more than thousand years. Most European countries are officially one branch and most ethnic groups are associated with it. Greeks are Orthodox, Irish are Catholics while Swedes are Lutheran.
In the Levant it's incredibly common to have a town with many variants of Christianity and Islam. A Syrian Christian can be Greek Orthodox, Syriac, Armenian or Maronite. A Muslim can be Sunni, Shia, Ismaili or Druze.
Just like how Iran went from mostly Zoroastrian to mostly Islamic in a few centuries or Arabia from pagan to Islamic. See what I mean about cherry-picking and ignoring one side's garbage while yelling about the other side's garbage?
Cherrypicking? Do you know what you are talking about? Muslims for hundreds of years were a small minority. In fact there was a giant rebellion by converted Muslims because the state was discouraging conversion. Large scale conversion to Islam started to happen around 900 and Christians were still a major chunk of the population even in the Medieval era.
The slow pace of Islam becoming the majority faith was nothing like Christianity. Europe rapidly changed religion and then changed sects. Entire groups of people were just wiped out if they didn't conform.
[–]United Kingdomkastenbrust 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 19時間 前 (7子コメント)
I do think that Islam when compared to the history of Europe and Christianity is relatively peaceful.
I don't think you know much about the history of Islam. Islam was formed when Mohammed literally raided nearby towns to steal loot, then got popular so encouraged others to do the same thing. The religions inventor was a warlord, rapist, pedophile. In order to be a good Muslim you have to lead a life as close to the prophet Mohammed as possible.
[+]ScotlandTomShoe スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 15時間 前 (5子コメント)
Eh, Jesus was by most accounts a pretty chill guy, and that didn't stop close to two millennia of violence in his name. The actual academic histories are sort of irrelevant, it's all about popular interpretation, and that can vary pretty widely. Islam can be used to justify peace and progress, or it can be used to justify hatred and violence. Same with christianity, and pretty much any religion/moral philosophy you'd care to name. Hell, even Buddhism can inspire violence. Does the actual history support one interpretation more than another? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but that's almost irrelevant. People will interpret it how they'll interpret it regardless, and for the most part no one's more right than anyone else; it's just that some of them are shittier than others.
[–]New Zealandoreography 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 13時間 前 (4子コメント)
But you need to compare the early expansion. Christians in Rome in the first centuries were peaceful, until the religion became a tool of the political establishment and the state religion. Christians were martyred, thrown into the colosseum as food for the lions with none of them fighting back, and yet still the religion grew.
Islam spread rapidly by invading the neighbouring Byzantine and Arabian territories. It first spread through bloodshed, Christianity did not.
[–]FranceThouny -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 13時間 前 (2子コメント)
But you need to compare the early expansion.
Why? Because it suits your point?
[–]New Zealandoreography 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 13時間 前 (1子コメント)
Because it backs /u/kastenbrust's statement that Islam had a violent beginning, which the poster I was responding to disagreed with.
[–]FranceThouny 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 13時間 前 (0子コメント)
I re-read /u/TomShoe's comment, and at no point did he disagree with this. He didn't even talk about the subject…
Why? That all happened centuries, even millenia ago, and since then both religions have inspired their fair share of both hatred, and kindness. Seems to me their distant histories are only as relevant as practitioners want them to be.
[–]redindh 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間 前 (0子コメント)
You need to learn about the history of Islam if that is what you think. Islam was formed when the Prophet was in a Cave. He suffered abuse and oppression from the townsfolk. His wife and follwers died.
When he moved to a different town they haters couldn't leave him alone. He and his follewers lost everything and just wanted to live and peace. Yet they were constantly attacked and conspired against. The last battle between the Meccans and Muslims wasn't even start by Muslims. The Meccans started it not realising how strong the Muslims were and when they lost, the Muslims were kind enough not to do to them what they wanted to do to Muslims.
π Rendered by PID 8250 on app-107 at 2015-06-28 19:56:47.218648+00:00 running 54ff980 country code: JP.
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[–]Glorious YuropVileFrog 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント (2子コメント)
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