319
320

Fixed It! (hammpix.tumblr.com)

-ColbyFlex Mentallo が 投稿

並べ替え:
ベスト
トップ新着論争中古い順Q&A
あなたは単独のコメントのスレッドを見ています。

残りのコメントをみる →

[–]StoneGoldX 109ポイント110ポイント  (82子コメント)

So you're saying you don't want her to become Oracle, maybe the most pivotal moment in the character's overall development?

[–]2Weird2Live2Rare2DieSpider Jeruselem -1ポイント0ポイント  (81子コメント)

She shouldn't have had to earn that development with a sexual assault in the first place.

[–]cole1114The Question 29ポイント30ポイント  (32子コメント)

The being stripped naked part is usually not mentioned when it comes to her character motivation. Just the being crippled and coming back from it.

[–]Dashing_Snow 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

What about the fact the commissioner was also stripped that is also something that is usually not mentioned.

[–]2Weird2Live2Rare2DieSpider Jeruselem 0ポイント1ポイント  (30子コメント)

I don't see how people whitewashing the sexual assault when they praise it makes it any less egregious and unnecessary.

[–]cole1114The Question 30ポイント31ポイント  (29子コメント)

Because a) still a really good comic b) Babs wasnt raped

[–]2Weird2Live2Rare2DieSpider Jeruselem 14ポイント15ポイント  (27子コメント)

A) being stripped naked and photographed at gunpoint is still a sexual assault, and B) the implicit possibility that she was raped is clear and, by my estimation, deliberate.

[–]cole1114The Question 20ポイント21ポイント  (24子コメント)

Honestly? I don't see why it matters either way.

[–]Duffya -1ポイント0ポイント  (15子コメント)

Just back up a second and think:

you're saying that about rape.

[–]cole1114The Question 4ポイント5ポイント  (14子コメント)

Rape that never happened. In a narrative. That, if it had been intended as rape (it wasn't, as confirmed by Moore himself), would have been from one of the worst people in (fictional) history. Because it's not real. It's narrative. It's fiction.

[–]Duffya -3ポイント-2ポイント  (13子コメント)

It's sexual assault. She was shot, stripped naked, and photographed in order to hurt her and those close to her. That's sexual assault. That's what happened.

[–]big_cheddars 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But the Joker is crazy and homicidal, why is it so difficult to stomach that him or his goons may have raped Barbara? And it's not like that negatively affects her character development.

[–]Duffya 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

There doesn't have to be penetration for it to still be sexual assault.

[–]Zand_KilchProfessor Pyg 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

This is true

It is also true that nobody cared about the character anymore until Oracle was born

It is also true bad things happen to good characters and heroes shouldn't be separate from that of they're women

And it is true sexual assault happened to Starman, Deadpool and Nightwing, even rape

It is also true neither were defined by the acts for long after them other than Starman.

[–]Coal_MorganThe Question 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sexual assault also happened to Jim Gordon in the Killing Joke. He was stripped naked and paraded before everyone as part of the attempt to mentally break him.

[–]Zand_KilchProfessor Pyg 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yup

I think Babs got the bad deal of it and Gordon never really had arcs dwelling on his, which I think is indicative of the anti women aspect of comics in the old era.

But that said, Oracle was far more interesting then Batgirl imo. I'm not a fan of that part of the comic but I'm a fan of how writers used it to evolve her character.

[–]saint_godardAmbush Bug 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe it's just me, but Barbara in her hospital bed grabbing Bats' cape & growling "We have to show him our way works!" would have been a hell of a lot more powerful & disturbing than watching Jim get pushed around by pinheads in studded leather diapers.

[–]squeak6666yw -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

ya but know one cares about that. He has a penis! he is allow to physically and emotionally destroyed not woman.

[–]vadergeekMadman 26ポイント27ポイント  (42子コメント)

I've always found it mystifying that people are so upset by the vaguely sexual nature of her shooting in Killing Joke, when barely anyone cares that Bruce and Dick have both been flat-out raped.

[–]BaldBombshellBigby Wolf 24ポイント25ポイント  (14子コメント)

People made quite a kerfluffle when Nightwing was raped by Tarantula. Notice how many comics Devin Grayson is writing now.

[–]vadergeekMadman 5ポイント6ポイント  (6子コメント)

At the time, sure, but the Killing Joke anger has persisted, the Nightwing rape stuff sort of died down.

[–]BaldBombshellBigby Wolf 20ポイント21ポイント  (5子コメント)

Because people keep deifying the Killing Joke as a classic in comics. Nobody does that for Devin Grayson's Nightwing run. Also, it is a fact that sexual assault against women is more of a flashpoint than sexual assault against men.

[–]vadergeekMadman 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

People recommend Morrison's Batman run all the time (and they should, it's brilliant) and the date-rape of Batman that led to Damian is responsible for a massive chunk of that.

[–]BaldBombshellBigby Wolf 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

Because Talia's date-rape of Batman didn't actually happen in the story. Morrison had never read the original story at the time, so he based it on assumption.

For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it's just kind of out of continuity. I didn't actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn't drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn't take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories.

[–]vadergeekMadman 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

It didn't happen in the original story, no, but Morrison included it.

[–]Cardboard_BoxerRamona Flowers 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

when barely anyone cares that Bruce and Dick have both been flat-out raped.

When did this happen?

[–]TheGamerTribuneGrant Morrison 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Dick was in some alley by a crazy in an old issue of Nightwing. Think there's an Atop the Fourth Wall episode on it. I think Bruce was in Son of the Demon, where Talia roofied him so she could have Damian.

[–]Hell_TutorRorschach 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

where Talia roofied him so she could have Damian.

I have to read the original now because ite seems Morrison actually assumed this is what had happend and so he wrote it like so, making it canon..

[–]TheGamerTribuneGrant Morrison 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It now occurs to me that I've never actually read it and have just been taking the word of Oh Grand Morrison as fact.

[–]vadergeekMadman 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

It happened here with Tarantula for Nightwing, and here with Talia for Bruce.

[–]Cardboard_BoxerRamona Flowers 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

That artwork makes Ra's look so oddly adorable.

[–]vadergeekMadman 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Like a cartoon cat.

[–]cole1114The Question -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tarantula's eventual comeuppance is one of my favorites in comics.

[–]1204Sparta 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

It's like the people upset over Sansa's off screen rape in Game of Thrones but made no complaint over Theon being tortured and had his penis cut off over a whole season

[–]BaldBombshellBigby Wolf 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

Because Theon's transformation to Reek was at least in the original source material.

Not only was Sansa's rape not in the original story (it happens to a Jeyne Pool, who Theon has convinced the Boltons is Arya Stark), but Sansa's rape in the show is less about her character and more about Theon's. Sansa's continued victimization is secondary to Theon's reaction to it.

Watchers still cling to the belief that the Starks are the heroes and main characters of Game of Thrones.

[–]vadergeekMadman 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I really don't see how it's that important which character was raped in this context. Hell, Jeyne's situation was much worse than Sansa's.

[–]BaldBombshellBigby Wolf 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Hence the final line. People are convinced that the Starks are the heroes and stars, so they'll react more harshly.

[–]MorganWick 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

GoT has heroes and stars?

[–]big_cheddars 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fuck no.

Anybody who reduces Game of Thrones down to good guys and bad guys... has kind of missed the point entirely.

[–]firelite906The Question 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would say theirs a dichotomy of noble idiots ("good guys") and realists with varying levels of moral reservations ("bad guys") but the series has no real central protagonistic "heroes" after ned died. everyone else isn't taking actions on a purely on a moral paradyme besides maybe varys or possibly tyrion, but he strangled someone out of hatred.

[–]1204Sparta -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would argue that in the source material like it or not, that Sansa is a victim . The book delves deeper into Joffrey's abuse not to mention Sansa was raped by Pycelle.

[–]eskimo_brosLuke Cage 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

Since you find it mystifying, I'll explain it.

First, it has to do with agency. Both Bruce and Dick get their agency back almost immediately. They don't have to dwell on what happened to them. Babs is crippled by the event. She has to relive that day every morning when she wakes up and remembers she cannot walk.

Second, sexual assault against female FICTIONAL CHARACTERS is a bigger deal than sexual assault against male fictional characters. Notice the emphasis. There were relatively few strong female heroes at the time, so to have one of the big ones so thoroughly degraded was a big deal. Bruce and Dick are just two of literally hundreds of male heroes who were active at the time, and, as I mentioned, they were allowed to move past that.

Third, while you are correct in noting that there wasn't much outcry over Bruce (partially because it was an accidental retcon wherein the initial meeting was completely consensual), a big deal actually was made about what happened to Dick. That writer had to apologize, and basically stopped writing.

[–]vadergeekMadman 0ポイント1ポイント  (7子コメント)

The sexual overtones of the Killing Joke didn't have that much of a long-term impact, it was mostly the fact that she was shot in the spine. She was stripped naked, but so was her father.

So Babs is one of the big female characters, but Batman and Nightwing are just generic members of a throng?

The outrage over Dick died out, people are still upset about the Killing Joke. And Grayson kept writing Nightwing for years after that issue,

[–]eskimo_brosLuke Cage 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

It didn't have much of an impact because later writers realized how terrible of an idea it was and soft-retconned it out of existence. That doesn't change the fact that it is a fundamentally different situation.

Yes, they are, on the larger level. Batgirl is more important to the overall group of women in comics than Dick Grayson is to men in comics. And Bruce is a completely different instance, because it was an ACCIDENTAL retcon that the writer acknowledged was unintentional. It wasn't even on purpose.

The outrage over Dick died out because it was acknowledged that it was bad, and Grayson left the title after two more story arcs. She wrote 17 more issues total leading up to Infinite Crisis, and she probably had half of those already scripted and sent in by the time DC realized it was an issue. They just didn't replace her so close to the imminent rebranding. She then never wrote anything for DC again. Look it up.

[–]vadergeekMadman -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

Soft-retconned it? I've never seen a comic where she was particularly traumatized by the nudity, it was the bullet to the spine.

So Batman being raped doesn't matter because the author thought he'd already been raped?

[–]eskimo_brosLuke Cage -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's exactly what I mean. Being stripped and exploited after being shot would be intensely traumatic, but most writers do not in any way acknowledge it as happening because it was a bad idea to introduce it in the first place.

It matters because there's nobody to blame for it. Morrison thought he was just using what had already been established. Nobody set out to have Batman become a victim of sexual assault. As far as Morrison knew, he was just using a past story as a launchpad for new stories.

[–]vadergeekMadman -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'd say being stripped is far, far less traumatic than being paralyzed by a gunshot. Jim was stripped as well, but no one's really bothered by that.

[–]eskimo_brosLuke Cage 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Being shot is not sexual in nature. Sexual assault is an intensely traumatic experience that did not need to be layered on top of the already intensely traumatic shooting.

And, I'm just spitballing here, but maybe it's because Jim was an ex-Green Beret and a current cop who had received plenty of training that Babs simply did not have. Or maybe it's because he wasn't also severely wounded. Or maybe it's because the scenes with Jim weren't ambiguous in a way that allowed that he might have been raped.

[–]LexFuckingLuthorLex Luthor 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't even know why people don't even bring up that Barbra wasn't even the only Gordon sexually assaulted in Killing Joke.