上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]MrDannyOcean 777ポイント778ポイント  (440子コメント)

Both 'swing votes' went with the Administration and ruled that subsidies are allowed for the federal exchanges.

Roberts, Kennedy, Kagan, Ginsburg, Breyer and Sotomayor join for a 6-3 decision. Scalia, Thomas, Alito in dissent.

edit: Court avoids the 'Chevron defense deference' which states that federal agencies get to decide ambiguous laws. Instead, the Court decided that Congress's intention was not to leave the phrasing ambiguous and have the agency interpret, but the intention was clearly to allow subsidies on the federal exchange. That's actually a clearer win than many expected for the ACA (imo).

[–]BradleyCooperDildo 286ポイント287ポイント  (266子コメント)

Roberts isn't a swing vote, he's more concerned with his legacy and the perception of the Court than anything else.

[–]ccmulligan 176ポイント177ポイント  (148子コメント)

That's true to an extent, but in general, Roberts makes business-friendly rulings, rather than voting as a conservative ideologue (Scalia, Alito) or a contrarian (Thomas). And there's no denying that the ACA has been a boon to certain hospitals and insurance companies.

[–]Mynameisnotdoug 47ポイント48ポイント  (41子コメント)

Does Thomas ever disagree with Scalia?

[–]NotSquareGarden 100ポイント101ポイント  (26子コメント)

They vote together 91% of the time. Sotomayor and Kagan vote together 94% of the time.

[–]everred 181ポイント182ポイント  (16子コメント)

That's because they formed their alliances as soon as they got to the island, and nobody wants to break rank lest they get voted off next.

Coming this fall: Survivor Supreme

[–]AndrewWaldron 47ポイント48ポイント  (2子コメント)

Coming this fall: Survivor Supreme

Sounds like a Taco Bell menu item.

[–]PoeGhost 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

Survivor Supreme is like regular survivor, but with sour cream and diced tomatoes.

[–]Holovoid 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

I would watch the shit out of that, if only to see the supreme court judges starving on an island together.

[–]MrsCustardSeesYou [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

And to see who walks around nude to creep the other judges out coughcoughscalia!cough

[–]BliceroWeissmann [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Totally Thomas, man. The man does not give a fuck.

[–]slash196 29ポイント30ポイント  (75子コメント)

It's a boon to every business that has to pay insurance premiums, through cost-control measures.

[–]ccmulligan 198ポイント199ポイント  (55子コメント)

Almost like nearly all of its provisions were drafted by conservative/pro-business think tanks and implemented by a moderate Democratic president as a somewhat-effective middle ground between a fully private healthcare system and a single-payer system, but is nevertheless portrayed by American media as a far-left socialist takeover of the healthcare system...

[–]slash196 71ポイント72ポイント  (14子コメント)

portrayed by American media as a far-left socialist takeover of the healthcare system...

So portrayed by insane right-wing politicians and "reported" wholesale by a lazy, corrupt media too scared of its own shadow to ever contradict one of the two major parties.

[–]ccmulligan 76ポイント77ポイント  (4子コメント)

by a lazy, corrupt media too scared of its own shadow

Or too scared to criticize the corporate system that wholly owns the parent companies of almost every major media outlet in the United States, since it is what has made the owners of these outlets wealthy...

[–]proletarian_tenenbau 26ポイント27ポイント  (1子コメント)

Almost like you're both right!

[–]malastare- [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You got corporate corruption into my party-influenced media!

You got party-influenced media into my corporate corruption!

[–]CorrugatedCommodity 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

They're not scared. They're about making as much money for themselves as possible, not reporting, or the truth, etc.

[–]DorkJedi 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

You mean the media wholly and completely owned by those same right wing ideologues that control those politicians? That media?

[–]DorkJedi 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

It amuses the living hell out of me that the same organization that created it (Heritage Foundation) is its biggest opponent. All because the one that actually passed it has the wrong letter after his name.

[–]checkerboardandroid 280ポイント281ポイント  (89子コメント)

Well he should've been thinking about that during the Citizen's United case too.

[–]CompactedConscience 137ポイント138ポイント  (20子コメント)

I don't think his motivation is as simplistic as a simple concern over his legacy (though it might influence his decision making to some extent). But the argument goes that backlash over a few highly partisan cases like Citizens United is what caused him to consider the reputation of the court when making decisions.

[–]QuelqueChoseRose 31ポイント32ポイント  (18子コメント)

And it's nothing unheard of for justices to think about how a decision will be received. Ruth Bader Ginsburg has repeatedly said she thinks the court shouldn't have gone so far in Roe v. Wade due to the backlash it provoked.

[–]Sybles 19ポイント20ポイント  (15子コメント)

If the justices are more politically-minded, I have read pretty much everywhere that the GOP leadership is actually relieved that they don't have to come up with their own stop-gap alternative.

[–]gehnrahl 59ポイント60ポイント  (13子コメント)

Imagine that nightmare.

GOP: "Hey we took away your healthcare because reasons"

Citizen: "So, my kid is sick and now I have an insurance bill that is going to bankrupt me, what's your plan?"

GOP: "¯_(ツ)_/¯ Boot straps?"

[–]thunderfox 27ポイント28ポイント  (1子コメント)

GOP seems to be missing an arm. Maybe he needs the ACA as well?

[–]KinglyWeevil [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Don't impinge on his free choice to not have an arm! SOCIALISM ARWARFKDFHWAERN

[–]jookyspooky 87ポイント88ポイント  (39子コメント)

You should read the courts opinion on Citizens United. Essentially, the court said the political system is set up for money and its up to "we the people" to regulate the money. To restrict speech just so less money is thrown into a system we created and we support isn't constitutional.

If the decision would have give against Citizens United then speech could be restricted when it coincides with a political campaign. The case was about a company wanted to put out a movie that was critical of Hillary Clinton that came out near the 2012 primaries. They allowed the company to have the film because it is speech.

Just because the politicians WE elect and WE support who are supposed to represent US are more than happy to take millions doesn't mean speech should be restricted.

It's up to "we the people" to deal with billion dollar campaigns. The courts can't save us from our apathy and our ignorance. We can force our politicians to create legislation to restrict the billions in bribes and corruption but that takes an informed population. We are mostly ignorant and can't be bothered to read.

From Wikipedia: This ruling was frequently characterized as permitting corporations and unions to donate to political campaigns,[24] or as removing limits on how much a donor can contribute to a campaign.[25] However, these claims are incorrect, as the ruling did not affect the 1907 Tillman Act's ban on corporate campaign donations (as the Court noted explicitly in its decision[26]), nor the prohibition on foreign corporate donations to American campaigns,[27] nor did it concern campaign contribution limits.[28] The Citizens United decision did not disturb prohibitions on corporate contributions to candidates, and it did not address whether the government could regulate contributions to groups that make independent expenditures.[22] The Citizens United ruling did however remove the previous ban on corporations and organizations using their treasury funds for direct advocacy. These groups were freed to expressly endorse or call to vote for or against specific candidates, actions that were previously prohibited.

[–]badweek1 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting--thank you.

[–]McSchwartz 31ポイント32ポイント  (15子コメント)

Speech that has the backing of money is wildly more effective than speech which doesn't (in modern times). I might regret saying this, but perhaps this is one of those situations where we need to recognize that the Constitution is inadequate, and the founders who wrote it could never have anticipated how vast corporate money, tele-broadcasting (radio/TV/internet), and politics could collide.

We need to recognize that there is something fundamentally different about the free speech of a citizen printing out pamphlets, a millionaire citizen buying radio ads, and a multinational conglomerate buying billions of dollars of TV ads in key electoral races across the nation. I'm trying to think of what the philosophical difference is, because there certainly seems to be one. Although even if there isn't a fundamental, philosophical difference, shouldn't we still "even this out" as a matter of pragmatism?

[–]dehemke [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

good thing there is a constitutional way to amend the constitution, then.

[–]dblcross121 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'd estimate that 99% of people who complain about Citizens United haven't read the case and don't have the slightest idea what it was actually about.

[–]jschild 102ポイント103ポイント  (58子コメント)

What's funny is that Scalia always talks about original intent on laws, yet twisted himself all over the place to not use the clear original intent of the drafters who he could ask.

He's absolutely amazing at divining the original intent of dead people though.

[–]ookoshi 126ポイント127ポイント  (45子コメント)

You misrepresent Scalia's position. He believes in originalism, not original intent. When he talks about originalism, his view is that SCOTUS's job is to determine how someone who lived at the time of the law's passing would have interpreted the text. So, for example, if it's a 1st amendment case about free speech, the question he asks himself is, "Would an average person in the late 1700's/early 1800's believe that the first amendment applies to the type of speech before the court?"

He's never argued that intent overrides text. He's arguing that text must be interpreted according to how someone in that era would've interpreted that text, not how someone 200 years later would interpret the same text.

That being said, I'm glad the ACA was upheld, and Scalia's opinions are certainly pretty out there sometimes. But in the interest of getting to the truth, let's be accurate about describing with originalism is.

[–]BENT_PENIS 25ポイント26ポイント  (26子コメント)

So, for example, if it's a 1st amendment case about free speech, the question he asks himself is, "Would an average person in the late 1700's/early 1800's believe that the first amendment applies to the type of speech before the court?"

If people are going to interpret things this way, I think that suggests we should be rewriting the law more often to clarify what is intended. Like Thomas Jefferson believed we should rewrite the Constitution each generation. It seems silly to have a 200 year old document telling us what to do when we have to interpret it according to what we think people would have thought back in those times.

[–]Tor_Coolguy [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

I agree in principle, but I shudder to think what kind of Constitution the current political climate would produce.

[–]Vinnys_Magic_Grits 43ポイント44ポイント  (3子コメント)

Scalia's originalism only applies when the Court is called upon to determine the constitutionality of a federal law. It's also more accurately stated that it matters what a person alive at the time of the drafting of the Constitutional amendment would read it to mean. He doesn't care about what the Framers think about any Amendment after the Bill of Rights, because they didn't write them.

But I digress. This decision isn't about constitutionality. This decision is about statutory interpretation, so all that matters is what the law says, and what the law was intended to do when it was written and passed in 2009. /u/jschild is exactly right about Scalia's dissent. He takes the phrase "State Exchange" and insists that it couldn't POSSIBLY mean "State and Federal Exchange" because that isn't what it says even though everyone knows that reading it that way brings about the exact result that Congress intended when they passed the ACA, an interpretation without which the law would not function as everyone involved intended it to function. He relies on one single phrase, completely devoid of the context, interpretation, and legislative intent meant to apply to it when it was written.

TL;DR You're mostly right on Scalia's originalist view, but it is inapplicable to a case of statutory interpretation.

[–]dingodjango 13ポイント14ポイント  (6子コメント)

So, for example, if it's a 1st amendment case about free speech, the question he asks himself is, "Would an average person in the late 1700's/early 1800's believe that the first amendment applies to the type of speech before the court?"

Which is obviously a great way of dealing with modern problems. "How would someone in the 1700's respond to the argument that 'fair use' should apply to content in iPad software being used in an educational setting?"

"Well, they'd probably say, 'Burn the witch and destroy the devil-box!' I think that should be our solution here."

[–]Matthattan 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes. He believes in original intent when it comes to the Constitution, but not when it comes to statutes. Which has the convenient effect of allowing him to rely on original intent only when everyone who could contradict him has been dead since before the hay baler was invented.

[–]tigersharkwushen_ 34ポイント35ポイント  (17子コメント)

It's difficult to see how Scalia, Thomas and Alito aren't activist judges at this point.

[–]Vinnys_Magic_Grits 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh man, whenever a decision about the 4th Amendment comes out and I see "J. ALITO writing for the majority," my blood goes cold. He's never stopped being a prosecutor.

[–]DenimDave [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yeah in my first year of law school we covered judges using the Original intent of the Framers in the DC v. Heller Decision and staying true to the 2nd Amendment as it was intended.

The next semester was Crim Procedure which was a combo of Scalia and Alito going "LOL 4th Amendment!"

[–]toofastkindafurious 13ポイント14ポイント  (51子コメント)

Weren't people worried about Roberts being a solely conservative judge? Turns out people can thank Bush for one thing.

[–]NOTORIOUS_MLK 131ポイント132ポイント  (12子コメント)

Roberts is a conservative judge, but he's also the Chief Justice, which means he has to be concerned with the Court's place within the nation. If he had gone the other way in both the healthcare cases, the only two places he's been especially "liberal" of late, then the outcry against the Court would probably reach levels unseen since the Roosevelt administration

[–]Yugeulb 26ポイント27ポイント  (5子コメント)

This is the same reason I believe that Roberts will also vote in favor of gay marriage and we'll get another 6-3. He doesn't want a Plessy v Ferguson under his watch.

[–]NOTORIOUS_MLK 23ポイント24ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think he'll vote for gay marriage as well, but in that case it will be to limit the scope of the opinion.

When the Court votes there is a set procedure on who gets to write the opinion setting down the law. If the Chief Justice (Roberts) is in the majority, he picks. If, alternatively, the Chief is not in the majority, then the most senior Justice in the majority assigns the opinion.

Roberts wants to be in the majority on gay marriage for the same reason he wanted to be in the majority in the first Obamacare case, because then he gets to write an opinion that reaches the right result in the most limited way possible.

In the case of gay marraige that would be by ruling that denying gays and lesbians the right to marry is a sex discrimination (that is to say a man can marry any woman, but cannot marry a man, simply because of sex).

If one of the liberal justices or Kennedy, wrote the opinion it would be far more likely that the Court would rule that either homosexuals are a protected class similar to race (GOP nightmare scenario) or espouse some kind of vague unclear standard that leads to all kinds of trouble down the road for the circuit courts (which is what has happened the last few times, because Kennedy has been writing the opinions).

[–]kyleg5 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

The vast majority of his seminal rulings have been incredibly conservative and not limited in his rulings like he said he would be. Notable examples include DC v Heller, Citizens United, and Shelby County v. Holder. In any other era both this case and Sebelius V NFIB would have been viewed as frivolous and not even made it to the Court (for evidence look at how legal scholars wrote about these cases at the beginning). Just because Roberts recognizes the importance of preserving the legitimacy of the Court doesn't mean he has a liberal soft spot.

[–]drocks27 308ポイント309ポイント  (197子コメント)

In his oral announcement, the Chief Justice apparently had a lot of negative comments about the sloppiness in drafting the ACA.

The majority: "The Affordable Care Act contains more than a few examples of inartful drafting."

-From the SCOTUS live blog

[–]flying87 227ポイント228ポイント  (140子コメント)

Well he's not wrong. Because of last minute reconciliation they had to bypass essentially the editor and get it done as is or have the whole thing shredded by republicans. It really was an unprecedented ass backwards way to get the bill passed. I'm glad it worked out in the end, since its better than nothing. I would prefer universal healthcare or at least a public option. Stepping stones.

[–]majesticjg 100ポイント101ポイント  (68子コメント)

I like the idea of ACA, but there are serious problems with it from the insurance underwriting side of things.

It didn't do much of anything to control pharmaceutical and medical device costs, and the whole thing hinges on the premise that young people who are just starting out in a jobless economy and buried under a mountain of student debt can and should subsidize the healthcare of baby boomers who have had their whole lives to prepare for the health complications of old age. (Forbes Article)

It's better than nothing... but not by much.

[–]pwny_ 85ポイント86ポイント  (39子コメント)

and the whole thing hinges on the premise that young people...can and should subsidize the healthcare of baby boomers

To be fair, this is exactly what insurance is. Everyone throws money into a pot, and then payouts are made to people who need it. In healthcare, who needs it? The old.

You paint this unjust image as though the ACA invented it. That's how all insurance works.

[–]MonitoredCitizen 34ポイント35ポイント  (5子コメント)

Your description of everyone throwing money into a pot and then payouts being made to people who need it isn't what the ACA does though. That's what we need, but what we've got with the ACA is the mandatory purchasing from for-profit companies that do not provide health care services. Their only goal in this whole thing is to siphon as much money out of the system as they can.

[–]pneuma8828 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Which is why the ACA stipulates that 80% of premiums go to care. They have effectively limited possible profit.

[–]majesticjg 38ポイント39ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm highly aware of how insurance works. However, the group they're expecting to pay in doesn't have the money. It only works when there's enough money in the pot. Furthermore, insurance only works that way when there is underwriting. When an insurance company can charge a sicker person more or deny them entry into the pool altogether, but we've eliminated that important aspect of insurance. So now you have no choice whose "pool" you're contributing to. If you want to join the "mostly healthy people pool" where you pay in less, you can't, because that pool is required to let everyone in who wants to be in.

So they added subsidies. Which are paid from taxes. Older people typically make more money, so they pay more taxes which gets turned into (among other things) subsidy dollars. But not proportionately.

And at every layer there is administrative expense, a certain amount of corruption and so forth. Never does 100% of the monies collected get spent on the mission at hand.

So no underwriting. Insufficient pool contributions and shell-game subsidy funding. That's not the formula for sustainability. I've always said to people who don't like ACA, "Push for full and maximum implementation, then watch it collapse under its own weight. You don't have to repeal anything at all." After all, if ACA is good for every American, why the hell would you start granting waivers?

[–]usuallyafakestory [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's a really bad way to get something passed. It's cost my family of four over $200 a month.

[–]kjvlv [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

and this is why they should have ruled the other way. The courts job is to look at a law written by congress and say is it legal as written. Roberts is admitting this law is not. It is the congress's job under the 3 branches of government to fix it and make it legal. If they refuse to do that, the people need to vote them out.

This ruling is not good because of the precedent it sets. A citizen is not able to redress a grievance with the government because now the courts can say despite what was written, this is what we think and therefore you must do. For those of you cheering remember that the court make up changes and swings. eventually they will use this precedent to rule against something that you hold dear. Regardless of what "side" you are on this is not good.

[–]RichardMNixon42 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The court agreeing with congress's intent is not newsworthy. A court overturning a law passed by Congress because of a poorly drafted sentence would be the height of "activist judging."

[–]cats_in_tiny_shoes 82ポイント83ポイント  (8子コメント)

Scalia used the term "jiggery pokery" in his dissenting opinion.

This is not really relevant to any political discussion but come on, that's just plain fun.

[–]Pathfinding 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Even if you don't agree with the guy. Scalia's opinions and dissents are usually a fun read.

[–]clavalle 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

He's a wordsmith.

You don't get to that level in the legal profession without a masterful command of the language.

[–]Quidfacis_ 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

The Court’s next bit of interpretive jiggery-pokery involves other parts of the Act that purportedly presuppose the availability of tax credits on both federal and state Exchanges.

Truly one of our greatest legal minds.

[–]CupBeEmpty [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I am going to assume you didn't actually read the dissent. It is incredibly compelling no matter what you believe about Obamacare. He absolutely eviscerates the majority. I also think is right from a legal standpoint it was just too big of a bill to kill for the swing justices, especially over a single clause.

[–]DoctorFahrenheit [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I mean, whether or not you agree with his approach to interpretation, he certainly is one of our greatest legal minds.

[–]Peter_Venkman_1[S] 96ポイント97ポイント  (43子コメント)

[–]DirtyThunder 77ポイント78ポイント  (41子コメント)

But in every case we must respect the role of the Legislature, and take care not to undo what it has done. A fair reading of legislation demands a fair understanding of the legislative plan. Congress passed the Affordable Care Act to improve health insurance markets, not to destroy them.

That seems like a fair interpretation of the statute haha

*(Formatting)

[–]ctornync 49ポイント50ポイント  (32子コメント)

It is. And the fact that this was still a 6-3 decision reinforces my belief: that the Supreme Court justice(s) the next president will select is the overridingly important factor for my vote in 2016.

[–]pajamabrigadier 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

As someone who's not knowledge about economics, how would ruling the opposite way harm the market?

[–]DirtyThunder 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Here's a good article on the potential consequences

Subsidies available under the ACA cover about 72% of premiums for the more than 11 million people who have already signed up for coverage. There's no question what effect canceling subsidies will have in states that use the federally run exchanges. Because the insurance regulations contained in the ACA will remain in place—non-discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions, limits on premium differentials for older or sicker people, an “essential” benefits package, limits on out-of-pocket costs—only those immediately desperate for coverage will be willing to pay the full cost.

Healthy people will drop out of the pool. Most won't have to pay the individual-mandate penalty since the cost of the full premium will exceed 8% of their income. As the individual mandate unravels, premiums will soar at the few insurers that don't withdraw from the market. The “death spiral” of the individual insurance market in those states will ensue.

Edit: Added a sentence for clarity

[–]Vinnys_Magic_Grits 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

This one was pretty straightforward. Roberts, for whatever reason, didn't want to say he was applying Chevron deference, so he cited a few Scalia opinions that stood for the propositions that ambiguities with major consequences don't merit Chevron deference, and that you need to read a statutory ambiguity in its overall context to figure out its plain meaning. Then he applies Chevron without the agency deference to get to the same result, essentially to avoid having to say, "The Court is required to defer to the IRS's interpretation of the subsidy provision."

Scalia, raging once again at what he sees as Roberts doing logical somersaults to uphold an unconstitutional law, (more accurately, Roberts has done a few somersaults to uphold a constitutional law conservatives hate without losing all his conservative cred), accuses Roberts of "interpretive jiggery-pokery" to write a decision that is "pure applesauce." Oh Antonin. How I love your dissents.

[–]Idejder 370ポイント371ポイント  (273子コメント)

From Scalia's dissent: "We should start calling this law SCOTUScare."

(from scotusblog.com)

Ha!

[–]PainMatrix 67ポイント68ポイント  (117子コメント)

The Act that Congress passed makes tax credits available only on an “Exchange established by the State.” This Court, however, concludes that this limitation would prevent the rest of the Act from working as well as hoped. So it rewrites the law to make tax credits available everywhere.

He feels that the court overextended their interpretation above what was intended by congress. I don't know enough about the intricacies of the ACA itself to counter or confirm this.

[–]RichardMNixon42 57ポイント58ポイント  (71子コメント)

He doesn't use the word "intent" because it's obvious that the way he reads it is not how congress intended it to be read. He wants to go by the letter and not the intent.

[–]Excelion27 58ポイント59ポイント  (17子コメント)

Sooo... they should have written it better?

[–]sjleader 61ポイント62ポイント  (6子コメント)

Yes. Or congress could have voted to simply amend the law to read "established by the state OR FEDERAL government..."

[–]sec_31 23ポイント24ポイント  (5子コメント)

Then they challenge exchanges created by both the state and feds in unison.

They are cherry picking a line by removing it from all context to claim the line is something it is not.

It is good for the supreme court to shut crap like this down.

[–]WHOLE_LOTTA_WAMPUM 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

We're talking about a 4 word phrase out of 11 million words in the law.

Lawyers would find a way to challenge it regardless of how well it was written.

[–]bobsp 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes. That's his point. They clearly wrote "State" and "State" does not mean federal government. If they wanted it to mean state, they should have. (Just making Scalia's point in brief).

[–]jschild 20ポイント21ポイント  (11子コメント)

Which is funny because he's well know for going by the intent and not the letter of the law when he disagrees with it.

[–]paiute 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

He wants to go by the letter and not the intent.

This time. Next time, when it serves his ideology, it will be the reverse.

[–]wehadtosaydickety 14ポイント15ポイント  (22子コメント)

Can some lawyer ELI5? In English "the State" can mean both the federal or state government. If we want a true literal interpretation, there is no reason that can't mean the federal government as it is also "the State."

I'm assuming U.S. law tends to use that word a bit more specifically.

[–]skankinmonkey 37ポイント38ポイント  (6子コメント)

The law uses the state separately from the federal govt. However, the law also clearly establishes exchanges in states when states don't do it. Scalia said the exchanges are different because the wording doesn't explicitly include federal exchanges in the states while the majority opinion says, 'the wording may be shitty, but the intent was clear, and it's not our job to change the law when the intent is clear.'

[–]funkiestj 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

'the wording may be shitty, but the intent was clear, and it's not our job to change the law when the intent is clear.'

textualist say "if the intent was to allow subsidies to be used on federal exchanges then let congress pass a new law that explicitly says so".

Of course you could just as easily say "if the SCOTUS ruling is wrong, let congress pass a new law that explicitly says the subsidy can't be applied to federal exchanges".

Given the deadlock nature of congress both sides know that what the SCOTUS decides will stand for a long time.

[–]UNC_Samurai 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

"We shouldn't have to adjudicate a typo, but the alternative is undermining the legality of this law based on the typo."

[–]gpsrx 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

To provide background on the law in this case, Scalia and Thomas tend to be purely textualists, and do not believe in looking to legislative intent. Rather, they believe that we should always look to the law as written, and unless the wording is clearly ambiguous or absurd on its face, they do not look to the intent of the drafter.

In contrast, the justices who wrote this opinion looked to the intent of congress, as embodied in the rest of the statute, in deciding that even though it says only state exchanges, what they meant was all exchanges. They specifically point to the inartful drafting of the statute to drive the point home that a 4-word phrase is not dispositive when the rest of the statute shows an intent to provide subsidies to federal exchanges.

[EDIT: meant to say Thomas, not Roberts]

[–]MrDannyOcean 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

Scalia wants to read it literally as 'established by the state' and not the federal government.

The majority ruled that the clear intent of the law was to allow the subsidies on both federal and state exchanges (as the other sections of the law really don't make any sense otherwise), and that this clear intent was more important than the 'inartful drafting' of the phrase 'established by the state'.

[–]biglakeuga 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Certainly in common parlance it can, but most acts-including this one-have definition sections for key terms. Here, the act itself defines state as "each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia." Check out 42 U.S.C. 18024(d) or page 10 of the Court's Majority opinion. And, as others have noted, the act repeatedly contrasts obligations or tasks done by "the state" with those done "Federally." So "state" as "nation-state" just doesn't apply here any way you care to slice it, although I admit it's confusing language if you're not used to reading statutory acts and their attendant forms.

[–]Isord 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The United States Of America is also a capital S state.

[–]Arianity [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The problem is that it literally only says that in 1 part. Every other part of the law says it explicitly.

He's only being literal about 1 section of the law,when its an obvious typo

[–]timory 186ポイント187ポイント  (24子コメント)

I love reading Scalia's dissents. He throws such hilarious tantrums. This time he has used the term "jiggery-pokery," which I just find delightful.

[–]maul_walker 45ポイント46ポイント  (14子コメント)

I completely agree, while I don't always agree with him, he writes the best dissents by far and can make a shitty argument seem quite relevant.

[–]bobsp 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

His dissents are fucking masterful. I love reading his opinions.

[–]Vinnys_Magic_Grits 41ポイント42ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yea, he's amazing at that. "How can anyone not see it the way I have decided it is?!?! Jiggery-pokery! Argle bargle! Pure applesauce!!!!"

[–]Nevermore60 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

He has said before that his audience in writing dissents is law students. He's playing the long game, trying to write interesting and compelling and digestible dissents to shape the opinions of future jurists. He's not an idiot.

[–]DirtyThunder 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

He called the majority's reasoning "pure applesauce"

[–]derf82 32ポイント33ポイント  (5子コメント)

Not that I have read a lot, but every Supreme Court dissent I have ever read ends some variation of the pharse "I respectfully dissent."

Scalia just ends, after pages of tirade about how stupid he thinks this decision is, with "I dissent."

One big subtextual middle finger to Roberts and Kennedy in that minor change of phrase.

[–]intheken 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

RBG famously went with "I dissent" in Bush v Gore as well. I love a good "I dissent."

[–]AirborneRodent 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Leaving out the "respectfully" has been popping up more and more often lately. The Republican FCC commissioners did it with the Net Neutrality decision. The Sixth Circuit judge who dissented when they reinstated the gay marriage bans did it too, IIRC.

There's just a lot more vitriol lately, even in the courts.

[–]n3tm4n 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Scalia - always angling to put the dis in dissent.

[–]jisa 14ポイント15ポイント  (6子コメント)

Scalia suggested calling it SCOTUSCare because it's been before the Supreme Court twice and upheld twice. out of curiosity, how many times has the Supreme Court upheld the death penalty, and does this mean we should have pictures of the conservative justices on the walls of every death chamber in the country?

[–]braves91 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thats not why he wants to call it SCOTUScare. He wants to call it that because the court is pretty much fixing the issues within the Obamacare law themselves instead of interpreting it which is what they are supposed to do.

[–]zeperf 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Both times were more of a favor to the law than they were an affirmation though. This time was "we know what you meant to say." The other time was "although you repeatedly said that the penalty is not a tax, we will rule it legal because its functionally a tax."

[–]SanDiegoTexas 248ポイント249ポイント  (17子コメント)

They call a 6-3 ruling a divided court? Jeez, in today's climate 6-3 is a landslide on a controversial, political case.

[–]OfficialCocaColaAMA 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, there was no chance Scalia/Thomas or Alito would ever side with the administration. So this is basically unanimous.

[–]ivsciguy 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

I was far more surprised by the Texas Housing case.

[–]loudnoises461 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

What happened on that case

[–]ivsciguy 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

They said that in housing cases the courts can consider disperate impact of housing laws, and not just rules that are discriminatory on their face.

[–]zelda2013 65ポイント66ポイント  (14子コメント)

From Scalia's dissent: "We should start calling this law SCOTUScare."

[–]gAlienLifeform 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Scalia in 2012: “Without the federal subsidies . . . the exchanges would not operate as Congress intended and may not operate at all.”

Cited by Roberts in Today's Opinion at pg. 17, reporter tweeting about it here.

[–]Caulker 57ポイント58ポイント  (10子コメント)

mmmm so salty

[–]talontheassassin 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

How do you get salty from that? I read it more as "the amount of times we've had to deal with this fucking law it should be named after us."

I guess the wording is a little ambiguous. Better bust out the Chevron defense.

[–]TheAquaman 432ポイント433ポイント  (62子コメント)

JUST IN: Republicans set to vote on defunding Obamacare for the 100th time.

[–]Slimerbacca 97ポイント98ポイント  (41子コメント)

defunding or repealing? either way it is a waste of taxpayer money for people who say they are fiscally conservative!

[–]antiqua_lumina 107ポイント108ポイント  (1子コメント)

Both. Also, set to pass a resolution for the 70th time that "Obamacare sucks times infinity plus one."

[–]Diplomjodler 51ポイント52ポイント  (12子コメント)

They're only fiscally conservative when it comes to helping poor people.

[–]Phunk131 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

Right after we get to the bottom of Benghazi right?

[–]el_guapo_malo [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

With Trump back in the spotlight, I hope we finally get to see Obamas real birth certificate.

[–]CarlGauss 157ポイント158ポイント  (138子コメント)

The message is clear: if one wants to dismantle obamacare, it'll have to be done through congress, not the courts. The problem is that obamacare is becoming popular enough that it'll be increasingly difficult for the GOP to repeal it even if they win the presidency and maintain both houses of congress in 2016.

[–]mpv81 102ポイント103ポイント  (41子コメント)

I've said this a number of times, but in ten to twenty years conservatives will be touting the idea that the ACA was basically drafted from their playbook (which portions of it definitely were).

Today, over 8 million people have healthcare they wouldn't have access to if the ACA didn't exist. It's an imperfect, but largely successful piece of legislation and it's popularity will only increase over the years. The Republicans will try to sweep their intransigence under the rug shortly and the sad thing is that they'll be able to as the public seems to have a disturbingly short memory.

[–]djwhiplash2001 22ポイント23ポイント  (11子コメント)

I'm not so sure the Republicans, no matter how short our memories may be, will ever try to claim "Obamacare" as their own.

[–]bdog2g2 27ポイント28ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not so sure the Republicans, no matter how short our memories may be, will ever try to claim "Obamacare" as their own.

Well obviously not. As mpv81 stated they'll claim the ACA was out of their playbook. It's all in the branding.

[–]rironin 20ポイント21ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do not underestimate their ability to rewrite history. They will try. They may succeed.

[–]icancut 72ポイント73ポイント  (71子コメント)

The problem is you can't just give and then take away and expect people to be ok with that. The still have no alternative. All they want to do is stop people form getting healthcare. If that's not cold hearted, I don't know what is.

[–]JohnGillnitz 32ポイント33ポイント  (13子コメント)

Rick Perry didn't seem to have a problem doing it. By refusing to expand Medicare in Texas, he effectively kept tens of thousands of people from getting health care.

[–]RedSweed 17ポイント18ポイント  (0子コメント)

Didn't have issues taking that FEMA money though. I can't stand him or Cruz - fake ass Texans.

[–]deathtotheemperor 44ポイント45ポイント  (17子コメント)

This was the final test. There will be adjustments here and there, and battles on the margins, but Obamacare is now locked in. I doubt it will even be mentioned much in the 2016 campaign, except for vague promises to "improve" it.

[–]tasmith1972 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

It is locked in, but I guarantee it will be talked about during the campaign. The Republicans just can't let it go because it is one of the few things that they can get the crazy wing of their base worked up about.

[–]an_actual_lawyer 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

From the majority's opinion, a sort of TL;DR:

Here, the statutory scheme compels the Court to reject petitioners’ interpretation because it would destabilize the individual insurance market in any State with a Federal Exchange, and likely create the very “death spirals” that Congress designed the Act to avoid.

The opinion continues...

The combination of no tax credits and an ineffective coverage re- quirement could well push a State’s individual insurance market into a death spiral. It is implausible that Congress meant the Act to op- erate in this manner. Congress made the guaranteed issue and community rating requirements applicable in every State in the Na- tion, but those requirements only work when combined with the cov- erage requirement and tax credits. It thus stands to reason that Congress meant for those provisions to apply in every State as well.

[–]bobtheflob 80ポイント81ポイント  (6子コメント)

Congrats /u/Peter_Venkman_1 on winning the karma race.

[–]baltimoretom 38ポイント39ポイント  (5子コメント)

I like this insult on Fb NBC SCOTUS post http://imgur.com/rs7mePB

[–]OneOfDozens 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

He earned that belt clip, damn right he's going to wear it

[–]invinciblepenguin 68ポイント69ポイント  (31子コメント)

A major piece of Obama's legacy was two swing votes away from blowing up in flames. For the good of those currently benefiting from ACA/Obamacare exchanges, this is very good news.

[–]Nyx_Goddess 66ポイント67ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm in that boat too. I can no longer be denied coverage because of a history of cancer.

The cancer didn't kill me, and I'll be damned if the insurance companies try to finish the job. HUGE MIDDLE FINGER

[–]beastcock 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

I signed up for Obamacare last week after my wife left her job. This is a very big deal for me.

[–]keyree 33ポイント34ポイント  (2子コメント)

Count me among that number. No way I can afford my insurance without subsidies in Texas. I'm ecstatic.

[–]Do_something_today 33ポイント34ポイント  (13子コメント)

I can't wait to see Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly shit themselves over shit tonight.

[–]squattmunki 20ポイント21ポイント  (9子コメント)

I don't understand how anyone who doesn't agree with their views can watch that crap. It gives me high blood pressure and I'm 27 years old.

[–]Nekrophyle 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like I have seen this headline before. More than once.

[–]CurryF4rts [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

While both conservative and liberal readings of the text make sense, I don't see how Scalia thinks it's impossible to have ambiguity when he himself said in the Sebellius opinion (2012) that the exchanges would not operate as intended without subsidies.

Its in the original ACA opinion. In oral argument in 2012, the attackers against the ACA mentioned it as well.

Edit: Grammar

[–]grunglebear 7ポイント8ポイント  (16子コメント)

“Congress passed the Affordable Care Act to improve health insurance markets, not to destroy them,” Roberts wrote. “If at all possible, we must interpret the act in a way that is consistent with the former, and avoids the latter.”

Interesting. Is this an accepted legal practice, to interpret a law based on its intent and not on its technical merits?

[–]brkello 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes. Particularly when it is only a few words in a million word bill where other parts are directly on conflict. Particularly when the people who drafted the bill are still alive and can state what the intent was.

[–]Iforgetusername 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wait you won't allow an article on TPP but this is allowed???

[–]Manbearpig258 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

FOX News is already calling this the "central domestic issue" in the 2016 Election...like the ruling hasn't resolved anything.

[–]baltimoretom 37ポイント38ポイント  (25子コメント)

This is when I like watching Fox News. I love seeing them lose their minds.

[–]apm588 28ポイント29ポイント  (10子コメント)

We still have the SSM marriage ruling coming either tomorrow or Monday. Be sure to tune in to Fox News again for more reactions haha.

[–]BatCountry9 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Take a shot every time someone says "Activist court." Also, RIP.

[–]Nyx_Goddess 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

Oh I hope it's tomorrow! What a great way to ring in the weekend!

[–]apm588 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

I heard it could be Monday. Rumour is that Ginsberg could be writing the opinion of the court. A friend of mine was following it more closely than I was.

I am hoping it is tomorrow though. The anticipation is killing me, as the ruling effects me :/

[–]Nyx_Goddess 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

This ruling will have zero effect on my life. And the anticipation is killing me too.

We'll stand together, and wait.

[–]jbondyoda 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

I can't wait to listen to Hannity after work.

[–]SiberianShibe 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is almost as entertaining as watching Karl Rove's head explode when he finally realized Mittens was going to lose.

[–]ur1336 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's amazing to me that all these guys have so much training and scholarship but all of the judgments come down 100% along political lines.

A layman can predict with 98% accuracy how any particular issue will get judged by the supreme court.

[–]search64 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I like justice Scalia a lot. Anytime I don't really know where I should stand (which, mind you this time wasn't the case) I just see what he thinks and reverse it.

[–]squattmunki 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have nothing but good things happen since the Affordable Care Act went into place. Preventive care is covered 100%, I was able to stay on my mothers healthcare plan until 26. That meant I was double covered since I had my own job and health insurance. My moms plan saved me $1,000 alone getting my wisdom teeth removed. I had to have other medical tests done and saved a lot on those too.

So far so good with Obama care. It will change over time sure, but for the better like most laws.

[–]Jon-JONES 46ポイント47ポイント  (106子コメント)

Why are conservatives so hell bent on being on the wrong side of history?

[–]Peter_Venkman_1[S] 76ポイント77ポイント  (42子コメント)

As a conservative, I wonder this myself. "Hey! Let's see how many people we can make NOT vote for us FOREVER"

[–]aglaeasfather 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

very few. The American public's collective memory is basically shit. As long as an incumbent politician polishes something up and runs with it they'll get re-elected. The key is just talking a big game and pandering. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as we feel good we'll buy it.

[–]astouffer 25ポイント26ポイント  (28子コメント)

Obamacare was written by the insurance companies. All it did was jack up the rates of everyone else. I would support nationalized healthcare but I have absolutely no faith that our government could make it work.

[–]PanicHouse 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

My job doesn't pay for insurance so it seems really shitty. Basically I'm either going to get fucked by an insurance company or the IRS. The IRS fucking doesn't seem as bad so I'm choosing that route. I'm not very educated on the matter just seems like a cheaper choice to pay out of pocket when needed and get hit come tax season.

[–]somerandomguy03 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

So now that it has cleared all of these hurdles, and everybody is required by law to have health insurance, can we focus on really fixing the ACA by pushing for a real socialized healthcare system like the rest of the modern world?

[–]ComeAbout 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Queue House republicans voting to repeal Obamacare yet again...

[–]Mystresse 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

I feel like you should be using the word cue there. But I'm not certain.

[–]Thats-WhatShe-Said_ 31ポイント32ポイント  (32子コメント)

Thank God. Can you imagine being seen as literally the ONLY first world country legislating to REMOVE healthcare from its citizens? Ugh.

[–]OneOfDozens 25ポイント26ポイント  (12子コメント)

We still don't have single payer

[–]Mister_DK 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

most don't, hth.

universal =/= single payer. You can have nationalized like the UK, reimbursed like France, single payer like Canada, mandated and tightly regulated like germany, the swiss system which is probably the closest to the ACA... whole lot of paths to it. The end goal is universal, not the specific model for it.

[–]Thats-WhatShe-Said_ 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes, and hopefully we'll get there, but this is better than nothing until an improved system comes along.

[–]Argos_the_Dog 21ポイント22ポイント  (36子コメント)

This is great news... is Obamacare perfect? No, but until we are able to develop a more perfect system it is helping a lot of people. Good on the SCOTUS.

[–]uphillalltheway 9ポイント10ポイント  (8子コメント)

It's been a bad week for Confederate flag flying, anti-Obamacare GOPers in the South. I'm worried about what the gay marriage ruling will do to them.

[–]GregoPDX 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

The gay marriage issue has zero chance of not being 6-3. The comments made by the justices during arguments were clear. I mean in no uncertain terms Ginsberg has publicly supported gay marriage (she thinks there's nothing to talk about), Kagan ripped the anti-gay marriage folks apart, and even Roberts thought that it was more just sexual discrimination than an issue of same-sex couples.

[–]tasmith1972 17ポイント18ポイント  (14子コメント)

It was a nonsense case anyway. Republicans were just looking for any little straw to grab to mess up the ACA.

[–]EatingPizza 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

It was a nonsense case anyway. Republicans were just looking for any little straw to grab to mess up the ACA.

And wasting money, tying up courts, etc.

[–]agen_kolar 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm relieved, but not surprised. I imagine the gay marriage ruling will also be 6-3, with probably the same dissenters.

[–]beach-bum 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

I guess it's back to the Benghazi scandal for the GOP.

[–]TRACCART 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Mitt Romney should be happy that his law got upheld.

[–]joeomar 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is actually a big relief for the Republicans. If the ruling had turned the other way they would have had a disaster on their hands, being held responsible for canceling health care on millions of Americans. Although they had talked about interim solutions for those people, it would have been absolutely impossible for them to come to agreement on one, since so many Republicans simply want to flat-out remove health care for them (Ted Cruz. Duh.) Now the Republicans can continue to scream and rant and rave about how bad Obamacare is and how it has to be repealed without the "Oh shit what will we do now?" factor if they were actually successful.

[–]akinginthequeen 18ポイント19ポイント  (10子コメント)

One thing I will never understand is how a group of people can work so hard to ensure that millions of people can't afford health care. It is sad that it got to this point. If Republicans don't agree with the ACA, that is fine, but where is their alternative? Why aren't they proposing legislation to fix what they deem its inadequacies? Having debate on their ideas? Instead, they vote to repeal it and sue the federal government to get rid of it. All this despite the fact that many, many, many reports heavily suggest that, for what it is, the ACA is working. It may not be perfect, but you don't throw away something that's not perfect; you work to make it better.

You may not like politics, but if you're looking for a lesser of two evils (though, I openly think one side is a fuck ton less evil than the other), then you should like the Democratic Party; it's that plain and simple. Though not perfect, these people have been open to the idea of helping the less fortunate get health care, helping the less represented get equal rights, and helping those suffering financially to get larger wages. The other side, on the other hand, has done all it can to keep those who are rich as rich as can be. I've never been rich, but I've certainly never been poor. And the values that were instilled within me by my mother--equality, helping the less fortunate, etc.--are all values that the Democratic Party seems to hold closer to heart. That doesn't seem to be up for debate whether or not you like politics or dislike politics.

The Roberts Court should be applauded for doing the right thing, not only in respect to the logic of the entire situation, but morally as well. Because this Court stood up and made this decision, millions of people--people like my dad and brother here in North Carolina--will still be able to afford their health care. It's unfortunate that, despite both having full-time jobs for my entire life, they have to depend on the subsidies in the first place, but that's the world that Republican politicians fight for.

[–]slash196 26ポイント27ポイント  (3子コメント)

If Republicans don't agree with the ACA, that is fine, but where is their alternative?

The ACA WAS the Republican alternative. It's Romneycare on a national scale. They don't have an alternative because their alternative was already implemented.

[–]instasquid 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

They're just being contrarian for the sake of partisanship. I miss the old conservatives that weren't just "cut taxes, keep spending". They had other issues but at least they got shit done.

[–]ltdan4096 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

One thing I will never understand is how a group of people can work so hard to ensure that millions of people can't afford health care.

It is not at all that black and white. There are a whole mess of people whose insurance premiums that get taken out of their paycheck increased and the benefits their health insurance provided went down because of Obamacare.

I pay more per month for health insurance than I did before Obamacare(by about 30%) and now instead of a $15 copay for doctor visits I have to meet a $2000 deductible before the insurance will contribute. Additionally, I can't decide "fuck this I am now paying insurance premiums for nothing because I don't go to the doctors enough to justify a $2000 deductible" because Obamacare will fine the shit out of me each year if I don't have health insurance. On the bright side, routine colonoscopies are free now woohoo.

[–]Peter_Venkman_1[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your comment is a perfect summation of the problem with the Republican Party. They will not change in the face of a wave of people who have heard their entire life that the Republicans don't care about them.

[–]wondering_runner 6ポイント7ポイント  (7子コメント)

While Obamacare is far from a "perfect" system, I think it is a step towards the right direction. I've seen mix results, but for the most part I've seen it help a lot of people and myself get coverage.