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First Transsexual NPC in Lion's Arch[Other] (self.Guildwars2)

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[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor -9ポイント-8ポイント  (53子コメント)

ITT People that say this kind of thing shouldn't be a big deal but then praise the shit out of Anet for doing it anyway.

Like ok, great, they added a trans NPC. And?

[–]lokikaraokeKaraoke [MEGA] on NSP 16ポイント17ポイント  (27子コメント)

People that say this kind of thing shouldn't be a big deal

You're confused. When people say it shouldn't be a big deal, we mean "you shouldn't see transgender people as different." You should treat them as normal human beings.

The reason this is a big deal is because of representation - meaning that transgendered people are traditionally not seen in TV, movies, video games, etc. Increasing representation of minorities in media is worth taking a moment to appreciate.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor -3ポイント-2ポイント  (26子コメント)

I am not confused. Why is this even a big deal? I am saying the exact same thing as you are. It's the same with gay or lesbian or what have you.

It's brought up every time as an "OMG LOOK WHAT THEY ADDED!" but at the same time I thought the point is to just have business as usual and not point it out as a big deal?

By taking the time to appreciate the addition of this character, you're saying that it IS a big deal and notice should be paid, when we're supposed to just see them as normal people regardless. But you don't see a post on the addition of generic human/norn/charr whatever, do you?

[–]Enfero 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

"I thought the point is to just have business as usual and not point it out as a big deal?"

The point is that we should eventually (sooner rather than later) reach the point where it's business as usual, but it's still a big deal right now. It's good to recognize inclusion when it's so rare. A few years down the line, hopefully we'll be at the point where it's common and accepted enough that there's no reason to mention it every time it happens. Until then, steps in the right direction warrant praise.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I agree. I just thought that was the end goal so I figured bringing so much attention to it was having the opposite effect. I love that I'm getting downvoted at every post for just trying to have a rational conversation though, that's pretty neat.

[–]lokikaraokeKaraoke [MEGA] on NSP 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

For what it's worth, I'm not downvoting you. I think it's good to have conversations like this and you've been honest. I might disagree with you, but that's not worth a downvote.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Appreciate it. I learned a lot in this thread. Was genuinely just trying to understand is all.

Thanks.

[–]lokikaraokeKaraoke [MEGA] on NSP [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's amazing what happens when we talk to each other instead of yelling at each other, yeah?

[–]lokikaraokeKaraoke [MEGA] on NSP 0ポイント1ポイント  (18子コメント)

I really don't know how else to explain it to you. Perhaps somebody else can do better. I'm a straight white dude, so it's not something I typically have to think/care about.

I only know it's an important thing because I've had friends explain to me that it's important to them. That's reason enough for me.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor 2ポイント3ポイント  (17子コメント)

I am also a straight white guy, but to me I couldn't give a shit what the other person is. People are people and don't need to be labeled. That's why I'm confused that this even deserves a post yet we're supposed to just be like "oh ok, business as usual - just another person"

Or am I missing something?

[–]lokikaraokeKaraoke [MEGA] on NSP 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes, you're missing something. Let me try it like this:

FANTASY: "People are people and don't need to be labeled."

REALITY: transgendered people face regular discrimination in employment and access to public facilities.

The key is to normalize things which are considered different. Most of us have very limited experience/exposure to transgendered people, so examples like this afford us an opportunity to discuss how we should act/behave.

Just like Ellen, Elton, and Will (from Will and Grace, fictional though he may be) helped Americans become more comfortable with gay and lesbian people, representing transgendered people in media will help us become more comfortable with gender fluidity/swapping.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

See I guess to me I just don't see why anybody would give two shits? I guess it's not really up to me but I personally don't bat an eye if someone is gay or lesbian or transgender or whatever.

Why should that be any of my business? I guess I might just be giving people too much credit because to me this isn't even a big deal, nor should it be.

Hopefully I made myself clear, I just genuinely don't think this should be a big deal and I think you agree that eventually that would be the ideal scenario.

[–]lokikaraokeKaraoke [MEGA] on NSP -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do! But if history has taught us anything, it's that the arc of justice is veeeeeerrrry long. Or as one of my favorite bands sing, "when we win, we win in inches."

Trans people have a long way to go. Nothing wrong with supporting them along their journey to equality.

[–]RayrrTrick88 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

It's great and all that someone being LGBT or anything else isn't a big deal to you. That's kind of the goal, to get acceptance.

The problem is so many people DON'T.

And the significance of ANet doing it is that, well, it's kind of a big corporation that's adopting acceptance, both in its employees and now in its game.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I'm glad it's seen as progress then. Unfortunately this entire thread will be buried because my initial question was met with bad response.

Thank you (and everyone else) again for explaining it. I'm glad that this is a good thing for acceptance on the matter!

[–]eliza__cassan 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The thing you're missing is the cultural context. While you're personally OK with people who they are, a lot of people are not, and transgendered people in particular face a lot of terrifying difficulties because of these people's prejudices. Inclusion helps "normalize" who they are, and as such more people will be open and not give them shit for not fitting into the gender binary mold. When you're a white male, you're represented everywhere - all sides of you. The rest of us face discrimination, some so subtle and normalized that it goes unnoticed until someone points it out. It's a very difficult thing to explain in a short comment.

Also, more importantly, visibility and representation helps people being represented, too! When you feel "different", you also may feel "broken", and all kinds of really awful feelings... it means the world to see someone who's just like you.

I hope this helps a little bit... if anyone would like to elaborate on this even further, please, go ahead.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It definitely does help, thank you again for all the information and I'm glad this is a good change instead of a negative one as I originally figured it was.

[–]ProudPlatypus [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

How to put this. You don't see the labels as important because you do not have a need for one, you never have, you live labelless.

You don't need to think about it, your particular group is by far the most acknowledged and catered to. So when people from another group are looking for something a little more specific to them, they need a word for it so they can find it. And I don't just mean in media but for resources and stuff, anything that might be a bit more specific to them. Their situation, culture, religion, medical needs, whatever it is.

Labels are important so they can find these things and not feel alone.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As I asked another person, do I label them as such and accept them or cut the label shit and just treat them as a fellow human being?

Because those are two very different things and I would assume that if the end goal is general acceptance and being treated just like normal people and like everybody else, labels would directly hurt that goal, no?

[–]--cheese--Gunnar's Hold | staff ele ftw [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Because it's still so incredibly unusual for any media to present trans characters well that it's noteworthy whenever it's done well. This doing-it-well should be praised, in the hopes that this kind of positive representation becomes the norm and we no longer think of it as unusual because... it'll stop being unusual.

How many trans characters have you seen in games? How many of those were portrayed in a less than positive light? ANet including this character and her just being a normal person is a huge fucking deal - you may not think so, because it's not relevant to your life, but to those of us that are directly affected by such issues it's seriously nice to see ANet include this character.

[–]ShadowMageAlphaFaithful Iron Legion Mechanic -1ポイント0ポイント  (4子コメント)

You are missing something. And I don't know how to properly describe it.

The best example I can give is really bad, but here it goes...
Imagine you lived in a world where the world was predomimantly run by black women. You, as a while male, were not reprersented in media at all, barely even acknowledged and, when you were, generally demonized or looked down upon.
Now, you've been playing a game, and the developers added a while, male character. How would you feel?

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I see your point. I can see how (especially based on how it's implemented) that could have a good or bad effect. I think I understand it a bit better but I won't pretend I know everything and if this makes people happy for the inclusion then great.

I just didn't know drawing attention to it was a good thing, is all in terms of progression as human beings.

[–]ShadowMageAlphaFaithful Iron Legion Mechanic 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Honestly, I don't understand it all that well either. I'm not transgender, but my best friend is. The things she's helped me understand as she transitioned, I can't properly put into words.

However, on the point of drawing attention to it, I feel as though we NEED to draw attention to it to normalize it. If people don't know about a problem (and let's face it, how many gamers/people even THINK about transgender people on a regular basis?) how can they come to think of it as normal?

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Fair points, thank you again!

[–]ShadowMageAlphaFaithful Iron Legion Mechanic [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

My pleasure! I'm glad I could help you understand things better!

[–]pitifullonestone -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

In today's American political climate, sexuality (specifically gender-bending) can be a rather polarizing issue. The fact that Anet added an NPC of this nature as nonchalantly (as if it weren't a big deal) as they did can easily be construed as significant.

It shows that a (relatively) large corporation is willing to take a stand on a politically sensitive issue, despite it potentially alienating part of the playerbase. It represents a culture shift in the US towards the left on this stance with more people becoming more accepting of gender-bending.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

In that case I'm glad it's making people so happy that they did this. I learned a lot from you and others in this thread so please forgive my initial ignorance on the subject, was just genuinely trying to understand why this was a big deal.

Thank you.

[–]atchadwi 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It is a big deal for the same fact that it shouldn't be. LGBT issues are not typically recognized as it is still a rather taboo topic. It's the same thing with gay pride, you want to be prideful and celebrate who you're able to be. I don't think anyone is making a bigger deal of this than they should but all in all it's a nice addition and now people know about it.

I'm a gay guy and sometimes it even confuses me, "why is it even a big deal?" But then you realize the whole scope of things. I can't even walk around my town holding my boyfriend's hand without getting stares, so to have the company of a game that I enjoy recognize their support means something.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Thank you for the insight. I guess to me I just don't see why anybody should care. You not being able to hold your boyfriends hand in public is really disgusting (from the standpoint that people are such assholes and feel the need to make it their business in the first place, let alone give you disapproving looks).

Maybe that's where my confusion on this topic stemmed from. To me it's not a big deal. I've not given a second look at a gay couple in public. If they're happy, they're happy. Who am I to say shit or care in the slightest?

I guess I really don't know as much about this topic as I thought so thanks to everyone who has shed light and filled me in.

[–]ShadowMageAlphaFaithful Iron Legion Mechanic [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Guys, don't down-vote this guy. He legitimately didn't understand what the big deal was. If you read the...many children comments, he seems to understand it better.

If anything, he should get an Up-Vote for trying to learn and listen to new perspectives.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Probably the way I worded the question and getting knee-jerk downvotes. I'm hoping it doesn't get buried because I think a lot of people can walk away with the knowledge that I walked away with if they read the child comments.

[–]luxymonsteriprotect trahearne 2k15 4ポイント5ポイント  (12子コメント)

You're right, it shouldn't be a big deal, but positive representation is a huge thing since it's incredibly rare. Most LGBT+ characters don't get a good treatment in the videogame world, and trans women are one of the biggest butts for a joke, so a positively represented trans woman is pretty fucking neat. And stuff like this is very important for us whenever that happens ;)

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor 0ポイント1ポイント  (11子コメント)

So maybe you can help me understand then, because as far as I know these people want to be treated as normal, right? I'm a straight white guy and I don't care if a friend of mine is gay, straight, lesbian, trans or whatever else. I see no reason to label people as such.

But if we're supposed to treat everybody normally (and I assume that's all transgender people want from everyone, which is natural and should be the case) then why are we making it a big deal that they added this NPC?

Doesn't that just go against everything? Doesn't that say "hey, look at this different NPC they added! Progress!"

Isn't the best thing to just nod and carry on? I'm legitimately confused how bringing attention to it like this is better than just acknowledging that it happened and moving on?

[–]TheNoblePlacerias [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Acting as if everything is as it should be in the world does not always make it so. Rewarding and giving praise for this sort of behavior encourages people to have more normal trans characters.

[–]AllyMoonchild 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm a straight white guy

Well yeah, and straight white dudes of all kinds are represented in media, in nearly every case. Bad people, good people, white dudes of all sorts.

It's a big deal that they added a trans character because there aren't very many in games, especially given that she's not the butt of an awful joke, she was a character that did a thing and now she looks a bit different and that's it. She's just there.

If you're a straight white cis dude, you can look at nearly any piece of media and find people like you... usually tons of them. It's nice to get some positive representation for types of people that usually only show up in media as funny joaks for people to laugh at.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I figured that part would be latched on to. I was giving that information so there was some context as to where my opinions and thoughts came from, not as an argument tool.

[–]Heartsure [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think /u/AllyMoonchild understands that and is responding accordingly by pointing out that, as you seem to understand, your perspective is limited regarding this sort of stuff.

Anyways, to make the point more clear: yes, eventually this stuff should be nodded off and we move on. Keyword: eventually. We aren't at a point where it's remotely treated as normal, and for trans-people to pretend to be treated that way when they aren't isn't going to amount to much. It's better to celebrate good transgender representation to let people creating it know that they are doing something right and are appreciated for it. It informs people moving forward to that ideal of it being regarded as normal and uninteresting.

[–]ohjbird3 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Not really. It's progress for them to be included, just the same as every other "normal" person is. The goal is to reach a point where we dont have to be excited that things are this way. You gotta get there first.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Right that's what I've been saying this entire thread. So the way to achieve that is first by making it a big deal every time something happens?

Not poking at you, legitimate question.

[–]luxymonsteriprotect trahearne 2k15 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

You made a bad mistake asking me, I'm horrible at explaining shit with words but I'll try my best.

Yes, we do want to be treated as normal and a thing people don't bat an eye against. But we aren't. People are fucking horrible towards LGBT+ people on a daily basis and have created this label-y stigma against us. This also applies to video games. Characters that aren't straight and/or cis are usually either villians or treated as jokes-- not because of their personality but their identity. And that shit gets really, really old quickly, especially when you're also being hounded down due to your identity IRL. Seriously just look at some of the venom being spit at the character even in this thread by people who think that trans people are somehow "disgusting or weird" (if it isn't deleted already)

The reason people are overjoyed about Anet's choice to add a trans character to their game is because of these negative tropes and stigma. They added a lovely trans lady to the game without a bad bone in their body and one that isn't treated like a joke. It's one of the few. It's progress for a possibly brighter future in gaming where we truly don't bat an eye towards LGBT+ characters because they're so normalized, which would be fucking amazing. And trust me, even people who don't wanna be labeled for being "trans n gay" (including me) are sure as hell labeled by other people because omg it's not normal! Must make a big deal for them!!

It's fine if you don't wanna label people. As long as you treat them fairly and don't deny their identity, I'm sure nobody will have bad blood with you.

I don't know if actually answered anything ANYWAY

TL;DR people are happy because characters and people like this are treated like shit, but Anet decided to not be shitty which is A Rare Thing

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

It's fine if you don't wanna label people. As long as you treat them fairly and don't deny their identity, I'm sure nobody will have bad blood with you.

So do I label them as such and accept them or cut the label shit and just treat them as a fellow human being?

There is a difference and I'm genuinely asking here. It matters not to me what another person does with their life and I'm happy if they're happy, but to me those are two very different things that will lead to two very different worlds.

[–]luxymonsteriprotect trahearne 2k15 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Ask them which way they prefer, maybe? Everyone's different. Some people have huge pride in their identity and like having a label on them, some don't. There's not really a way to say whichever is right, sorry :(

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

No need to be sorry. This is a tricky one. Thanks again for all the input and discussion on the subject.

[–]crawlerette [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It really depends on the person. Labels can help people who don't know how to describe their life and give them a community to connect with. Others really don't like them and think they're too limiting. It really depends on the person, but as a whole labels help give faces and voices to people who otherwise get swept under the rug.

[–]ShadowMageAlphaFaithful Iron Legion Mechanic 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

It SHOULDN'T be a big deal, in a perfect world.

But unfortunately, the types of characters in video games is not very reflective of the variety of people in the real world.
With this character, ANet has moved toward embracing the diversity of gamers and people in general. Far too often, developers ignore various demographics that are part of the gaming community, let alone humanity in general.
So.... I'll fix that for you.

ITT People celebrating a step in the right direction.

[–]TriggerSadGamer[TWIT] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Especially when a lot of trans and gay characters get places into villain roles in video games. It's nice to have a normal character represent us people in the lgtbq community. Makes me feel less stigmatized at least.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I stand by my words. Thanks.

[–]pappaskamt 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's part of a normalization process. Transgender people are discriminated and oppressed. This is a step in the right direction. And the reason Anet are recieving praise for it is because not many developers do care for the transgender community. I mean there are thousands of NPCs in the game and just one transgender one.

[–]MBirkhofer -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

not "really" the first either. this one is using mesmer magic to appear female. others have had full on gender change via magic in many a game. pretty sure in guildwars before too.

[–]crawlerette [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

If you were part of a group that was either a) completely invisible or b) when they are acknowledged they get completely demonized as mentally ill, child molesters, a danger to society, or worse, then you'd understand. And even if it's not a big deal to you, why do you feel the need to put down those who do like it.

[–]ShadowMageAlphaFaithful Iron Legion Mechanic [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Please read the vast amount of children comments.
Mdogg2005 did not understand why it was a big deal. He seems to have come to a better understanding through conversations had in the comments below.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Where/when did I put anybody down..?

[–]crawlerette [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Asking why people are making a big deal about it kind of implies that we shouldn't. But we're coming from a place where people like that tend to either be completely ignored or made the butt of a joke. We should make a big deal out of it because it tells Anet that we're glad they're being positive about it, and because trans players especially should know that they're welcome by both the devs and other players.

Should it be a big deal? No. But we live in a world where a transwoman's average is only thirty years. That's lower than the average life expectancy of people in the Middle Ages. Trans people have to deal with lack of rights, poverty, lack of social connection, and a myriad of other stuff. So, yeah, it's kind of a put down when people celebrate positive examples of trans people in media because in comparison people make a big deal out of transphobic jokes like the "man in a dress" trope or "it's a trick!!" and such. I'd much rather have people make a big deal out of one npc even if that npc isn't directed at my experience as a person.

[–]Mdogg2005Im Teh Pwnzor [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's not what I was implying at all. I was asking a genuine question of why it should be a big deal at all... People were kind enough to explain it to me in the threads that follow after my initial post and while I won't pretend to understand it fully, but please feel free to read through my other comments here and see that my intent was never malicious. It was a genuine question with the intents to understand why this should be a big deal if the goal is to have it not be a big deal.

Shit even typing that out confused me.. Just please read my other comments and know I'm not trying to be an asshole or a troll...