全 46 件のコメント

[–]wyman856People are horses[S] 20ポイント21ポイント  (20子コメント)

Okay, this is my first time attempting one of these and I am sure others can better elaborate than myself on the topic.

R1 -

First of all, all of OPs many income tax brackets are chosen seemingly arbitrarily other than increasing 5% at every randomly chosen interval.

Income tax applies to all forms of income with no exceptions.

Not sure what he means by this. Is that supposed to include dividends and capital gains? My suspicion is it is, but I really am not fit to speculate further on intent.

As /u/healthcareeconomist3 already pointed out, taxing capital is bad, imagine what Warren Buffet would do if he actually had to pay an 80% capital gains tax...

OP also has this strange affinity for tariffs. Economists agree free trade is beneficial due to the ensuing lowering of prices that occurs from opening borders. The only concerns we should have are temporary labor disruptions that occur in industries that lose tariffs, as they may not be better off.

Regardless, we do not attempt to construct a giant dome to block out the sun just because it would be beneficial for light bulb manufacturers in the U.S. That is essentially how free trade works.

Economists also agree corporate taxes are bad because corporations are not the ones (or at least not the only ones) who pay them. Tax incidence exists, and evidence indicates a large chunk of it falls on labor, not the wealthy. Cutting it expands the tax base, output, real wages, and investment over time.

And shoot, I'm running out of time here to comment so hopefully others can take over. Here are a select few more of OP's proposals.

Value Added Tax: 10% = 1.771 trillion/year -applies to all goods, services, and purchases. Financial Transactions Tax: 0.1% on all stock transactions = 117 billion/year Derivatives Transaction Tax: 0.2% on all derivatives transactions Derivatives Holding Wealth Tax: 2% on all derivatives-based assets in banks = 3.64 trillion/year

[–]irondeepbicycleI got 99 problems but technological unemployment ain't one 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

Also worth pointing out that I think OP isn't entirely clear on the distinction between "income" and "wealth". If I'm reading this right, that 80% bracket applies to income over 512 million? How many people make half a billion dollars in a year? A few sure, but probably fewer than he imagines.

[–]jvnk 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Does anybody make that much in actual income vs. unrealized gains?

[–]irondeepbicycleI got 99 problems but technological unemployment ain't one 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Just for fun I looked up how much Mark Zuckerberg sold when Facebook IPO'ed, and he sold $1.1 billion worth of stock that day. Depending on how you define it I guess he'd hit that bracket in that year.

But that's basically the level you're looking at. People selling shit-tons of shares of insanely valuable companies.

[–]jvnk 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah, that's what I figured. It happens, but nobody is doing that consistently year after year.

[–]IntegraldsI am the rep agent AMA 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If I recall correctly, there's considerable churn even in the 5% and 1%, not to mention the 0.01%.

[–]jvnk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think there's churn everywhere, but perhaps a lot less in the lowest 20% or so.

[–]say_wot_againI guess I mod /r/goodeconomics now? 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Under FDR, wasn't Rockefeller the only person in the top bracket?

[–]wumbotariandictatorship of the wumbotariat 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

BUT 90% MARGINAL TAX. HIGHEST GROWTH. DAE WE NEED THE 50S BACK?

(Yes FDR was the 30s and 40s but no one talks about the high growth coinciding with high taxes in the 30s and 40s because, you know, there was little growth in the 30s and 40s.)

[–]IntegraldsI am the rep agent AMA 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You could probably fit them all in a seminar room and they could have a conversation about the top tax bracket!

[–]WhoTookPlasticJesus 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

First of all, all of OPs many income tax brackets are chosen seemingly arbitrarily other than increasing 5% at every randomly chosen interval.

They're powers of 2, presumably because computers fix everything.

Except that they're not, because while 128 is 27, , 256 is 28 and 512 is 29, logn of 128,000 or 256,000,000 or whatever are not integers.

[–]wyman856People are horses[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hah, I cannot believe I failed to notice that. That is one truly remarkable way of doing things.

[–]grevemoeskr -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just to be that guy: log(128.000)=12.800 you are looking for lg(n). But, yeah, none of this makes sense

[–]HealthcareEconomist3Krugman Triggers Me 11ポイント12ポイント  (7子コメント)

R12: In here happy to accept the optimal rate of capital taxation may be positive in some situations as Saez has demonstrated, with the unwashed proles its not useful to suggest there is wiggle here.

Also the VAT isn't a particularly bad tax, one assumes that it would include a credit for VAT paid to purchase goods since its a VAT not a sales tax.

[–]say_wot_againI guess I mod /r/goodeconomics now? 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Don't empirical studies say that the negative effects of capital gains taxes are pretty small?

[–]potato1 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Those studies probably don't consider the possibility of an 80% capital gains tax.

[–]say_wot_againI guess I mod /r/goodeconomics now? 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

In fairness, I don't think ANY study ever really thinks about such an extreme case.

[–]wyman856People are horses[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

In here happy to accept the optimal rate of capital taxation may be positive in some situations as Saez has demonstrated

Yeah. I haven't read Saez (probably should and will), but I can't imagine he would propose an 80% top rate.

Also the VAT isn't a particularly bad tax, one assumes that it would include a credit for VAT paid to purchase goods since its a VAT not a sales tax.

Entirely agree. I was a believer of a large sales tax combined with a NIT for a few years, but I have to say, you have made me a convert in switching to a subtracted VAT combined w/ the compensation deduction, progressive payroll tax and NIT a la the X-tax.

[–]StopBanningMe4 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is a little off topic, but I genuinely don't understand the difference between a VAT and a sales tax. It's my understanding that in Canada what we call GST is in fact a VAT, but I just don't see how it's any different than the sales taxes they do in the US. Is it not just x% added onto the price?

[–]HealthcareEconomist3Krugman Triggers Me 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

A sales tax is a tax on final goods consumers buy, its paid directly by the consumer. A VAT is a tax on the value added to goods as they move along the supply chain (EG for a company which builds furniture the VAT is the difference between the cost of raw materials and the price of the furniture, a furniture store would then pay VAT on the difference between the cost of the furniture and the price they sell it to consumers at), its paid by businesses but is passed along to consumers.

A sales tax applies only on consumer consumption, a VAT applies on both business & consumer consumption. VAT has a broader base and because part of it is hidden from consumers (they only know the marginal rate they are paying on final goods, not the effective rate that resulted from VAT all the way along the supply chain) you can use clever design to reduce distortionary effects over that of collecting the same amount of revenue from a straight sales tax.

[–]Escape1991 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But wouldn't tax incidence be the same? Wouldn't the deadweight loss be the same if you implement a VAT or a sales tax if both had the same effective rate?

[–]potato1 17ポイント18ポイント  (3子コメント)

Income Tax Deductions: 1) A family with children pays no income tax on first $50,000 of income. 2) Any individual with children pays no income tax on first $25,000 of income. 3) Any family with adult dependents pays no income tax on first $100,000 of income 4) Any individual with adult dependents pays no income tax on first $50,000 of income.

So from this I can only conclude that he thinks that it's twice as expensive for two-parent households to raise children as it is for single-parent households? Do children who have two parents eat twice as much, use twice as much school supplies, require twice as much medical care, and poop twice as often or something?

Payroll Tax: 1 trillion

What does this mean?????

Definition of a U.S. corporation: Any company that makes revenue off of sales to consumers in the U.S. It is possible to be a "Partial U.S. corporation" (which is what most would be). If a company makes 50% of its revenue from sales to consumers in the U.S. it pays the U.S. corporate income tax on that portion of its income. If a company makes 20% of its revenue from selling to U.S. consumers, it pays U.S. corporate income tax on that portion of its income Etc...

Special Clause for tax evaders: Any corporation suspected of evading taxes by loaning profits to subsidiaries in foreign countries or by holding profits in offshore bank accounts will be penalized as follows

So foreign companies with US subsidiaries have to pay US corporate income tax on their income from their operations outside the US?

The tax brackets are much wider than today's tax brackets - the maximum number on each tax bracket is double the minimum number. This is to reduce prevent disincentivizing trying to make more money because it would require making more than double to get to a new tax bracket.

This isn't even a coherent sentence, let alone a coherent tax policy.

[–]wyman856People are horses[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

How dare you, do you want the rich to continue to enslave us forever!

In all seriousness, here was an actual response levied against HE3 in regards to his criticisms:

Also, your hair will fall out and your wife will leave you. These taxes will make your children stupid and kill your parents. The boogie man will use all the money to tunnel into your room at night to get you. I love how tax proposals that hurt the rich are always analyzed as being bad for everyone.

[–]haalidoodiThe Magic Aggregate Demand Fairy 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Definition of a U.S. corporation: Any company that makes revenue off of sales to consumers in the U.S.

This is /r/badlaw as well. I mean, I know most people just think that "firm" is synonymous with "corporation" but you'd think a guy that is doing "research" to create the perfect tax code would know better than this!

Not to mention that this part of his scheme, by taxing firms selling in the US, would just lead to firms to export more and raise prices on what they sell here.

Please, please tell me this is just some idealistic high schooler who thinks he's solved the world's problems. That I can handle, but an adult thinking this? I...I can't, I'm tearing up just thinking about it.

[–]MoneyChurchShitposting is always and everywhere a karmic phenomenon 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It sounds as if this person doesn't understand the concept of a marginal tax rate.

[–]IntegraldsI am the rep agent AMA 16ポイント17ポイント  (2子コメント)

I propose that anyone proposing a new tax code be forced to read Dimensions of Tax Design and Tax By Design before writing up their plan.

This includes everyone from redditors to elected officials.

[–]LegSpinner 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

READ?? You expect us to make INFORMED comments?!

[–]IntegraldsI am the rep agent AMA 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

Okay to be constructive, here's my tax plan:

  1. Progressive consumption tax, at whatever rate schedule Auerbach, Kotlikoff, Feldstein, Diamond, Saez, and Orszag can mutually agree upon.

  2. Eat all the free lunches. Put a bunch of enviro economists in a room and have them crank out the optimal carbon tax. Same with alcohol and other bads.

  3. No tariffs, no income tax, no corporate income tax, no capital gains tax, etc, etc. Just a progressive consumption tax.

  4. Get a bunch of lawyers, tax accountants, and tax economists in a room to figure out how to tax consumption in a manner that is reasonably transparent and easy to implement.

  5. Maybe carve out a standard deduction, charitable giving deduction, and small miscellaneous pet deductions because my pet deductions are obviously welfare-enhancing, while your pet deductions are obviously political rent-seeking.

[–]irondeepbicycleI got 99 problems but technological unemployment ain't one 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

How do you feel about property or land taxes? I'm a bit of an armchair Georgeist myself, so I'd love a combination of land and consumption taxes.

[–]prillin101 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Aren't consumption taxes regressive because the poor usually buys more things than the rich and middle class?

[–]besttrousers"Then again, I have pegged you for a Neoclassical/Austrian." 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No reason a consumption tax has to be flat, and more than an income tax.

[–]thatdamnedsalarianDisciple 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Would the progressive consumption tax make up for much of the short fall in revenue from getting rid of all income taxes, tariffs, capital gains etc? Or would there have to be massive cuts in government expenditure to finance it?

[–]gorbachev 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's impressively arbitrary.

[–]CutOffUrJohnson 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

Corporations, rich people, investors, private ownership and everybody that isn't from my country is evil! Tax the living shit out of them!

[–]potato1 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why not just make international trade completely illegal? Seriously. Apparently it's evil, soooooo...

[–]MoneyChurchShitposting is always and everywhere a karmic phenomenon 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

Worker coops pay no corporate income tax.

I can see exactly how that will turn out. I'm reminded of a JPE back cover quote:

The result was retail chaos. At, for instance, the supermarket, shoppers would no longer purchase three large bags of groceries for $78 total and submit to paying 6, 6.8 and 8.5 percent on those parts of their purchases over $5.00, $20.00 and $42.01, respectively—they were now motivated to structure their grocery purchase as numerous separate small purchases of $4.99 or less in order to take advantage of the much more attractive 3.75 percent sales tax on purchases under $5.00. . . . So at the store, you suddenly had everyone buying under $5.00 worth of groceries and running out to their car and putting the little bag in the car and running back in and buying another amount under $5.00 and buying another amount under $5.00 and running out to their car, and so on and so forth. Supermarkets’ checkout lines started going all the way to the back of the store. . . . I know gas stations were even worse . . . fights broke out at gas stations from drivers being forced to wait as people ahead of them at the pump tried putting $4.99 worth in and running in and paying and running back out and resetting the pump and putting in another $4.99, and so on. . . . From the perspective of administrative costs, the worst part came when enterprising businesses saw a new opportunity and started using “Subdividable!” as a sales inducement. Including, for instance, used-car dealers that were willing to sell you a car as an agglomeration of separate little transactions for front bumper, right rear wheel well, alternator coil, spark plug, and so on, the purchase structure as thousands of different $4.99 transactions.

[–]potato1 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

What's this from? Sounds funny!

[–]MoneyChurchShitposting is always and everywhere a karmic phenomenon 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Journal of Political Economy publishes an economics related quote on (almost) every issue. This particular one is from The Pale King, by David Foster Wallace.

[–]TitusBluth 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That novel is basically 1200 pages of that. DFW was a brilliant writer but his long form fiction is exhausting.

[–]KrayonFisher 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is this from the Pale King?

[–]MoneyChurchShitposting is always and everywhere a karmic phenomenon 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep.

[–]CutlasssI am the Lord your Gold 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just scanning it briefly I can tell you it's more complicated than optimal.

[–]anarchism4thewin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why do these cowards always delete their accounts?

[–]absinthe718Not an economist but I do have drinks with them. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Picking a tax rate then figuring out what to do with the money sounds like bad politics as much as bad economics.

[–]SnapshillBotPaid for by The Free Market™ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Snapshots:

  1. This Post - 1, 2, Error

I am a bot. (Info / Contact)