上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]shortroundsuicide 64ポイント65ポイント  (341子コメント)

What are some alternatives to UBI that could address a society automated by AI that displaces the need for some/most/all workers?

[–]TCGT3 52ポイント53ポイント  (57子コメント)

If automation can increase the yield of basic resources then most workers shouldn't be worried about working. Income, at this point, would merely be used to finance personal growth or to purchase luxuries. Since alot of people prefer recreation rather than advancement, it should work out for them to get basic good handouts.

But for those that want to produce and continually assist in humanity's development, there will always be a job to do. Jobs are always created out of a loss of another.

[–]PD711 56ポイント57ポイント  (47子コメント)

Since alot of people prefer recreation rather than advancement, it should work out for them to get basic good handouts.

I think that people do have a need to contribute to their communities... I think it is natural for people to show a preference for recreation when so much of our time is consumed by work that fails to fulfill us.

A lot of people say that if Star Trek became true, that humanity would spend all it's time in holodecks absorbed in their own fantasy worlds. I think the need to contribute to our communities is enough that would prevent this.

I do think, though that in an automated society with UBI the line between hobby and work would begin to blur. Maybe someday our antecedents won't know the difference.

But for those that want to produce and continually assist in humanity's development, there will always be a job to do. Jobs are always created out of a loss of another.

This I disagree with... cgp grey made an interesting video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU where he brings up the analogy of horses. When powerful enough machines were made to make their jobs obsolete (cars and tractors) rather than new "horse jobs" appearing to justify our continued use of horse labor... they became pets.

[–]fencerman 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

When powerful enough machines were made to make their jobs obsolete (cars and tractors) rather than new "horse jobs" appearing to justify our continued use of horse labor... they became pets.

This is why the future of human labour is prostitution.

[–]__________________0_ 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I know you joke, but even if that were true you'd see inequity. Some people are better looking than others and would command a high price, while some people couldn't give it away for free.

[–]BitcoinOperatedGirl 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

To begin with, there's much more demand for female prostitutes than males, because there are more straight male customers, and gay males have much less difficulty finding free sex. Then there's the age issue. There's bound to be much less demand for you if you're say, over 40, or even just over 35.

Then there's the issue of robotics. How long until we can have realistic "fem bots"? 100 years? 50? 30? It might happen in our lifetime. Consider that the main issue here is merely making something that looks good enough, which makes it a fabrication/materials/artistic problem.

[–]officerbill_ 12ポイント13ポイント  (33子コメント)

I think that people do have a need to contribute to their communities

What percentage of people voluntarily actively contribute now?

I hate to say it, but under a proposal like this at least 1/3 of the people I know would quit working and I'm pretty sure that none of them would have any interest in contributing to their community.

Shack up with someone and you have a $60K/Yr income. More than enough for two people to spend most of their lives playing video games, surfing the net and hanging out in bars.

[–]danzania 32ポイント33ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most people are busy putting a roof over their heads.

[–]PD711 47ポイント48ポイント  (7子コメント)

Well, like I said, a lot of people don't contribute now because we are busy contributing to something else- someone else's bottom line.

I am not saying that this contribution is going to be enough to make up for the UBI. Maybe this contribution is in something like playing the guitar or writing poetry. Not everybody can be a rock star, but we all have something to share, and I think people will share it, given a chance...

[–]Daxx22 48ポイント49ポイント  (0子コメント)

No kidding after the +-12 hours of my day that is consumed by my job (counting commute) there is very little time to do anything but prepare for the next day and maintain my household.

[–]hexydes 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

The ONLY thing that's wrong with this is that it takes away resources from people that are busy working. If that is no longer the case (i.e. automation takes care of all necessities), then as long as it doesn't negatively impact other people, who cares what they spend their time doing?

Video games and surfing the net eventually get boring though, and I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people at some point try to find a "bigger purpose" in life (especially when they aren't spending 90% of their time trying to pay for McDonalds for dinner and a crappy one-bedroom apartment).

[–]_beast__ 19ポイント20ポイント  (3子コメント)

But that's the thing, in a society where the basic needs of humanity are met through automated processes, that would not only not be important, but be a bit of a benefit to society, as it would free up jobs for people who would actually want them.

Also, most people would get really bored after a month or two of not working and pick up a hobby or something like that that could not only give them greater happiness in life, but could lead to them creating some sort of innovation that benefits the society.

In a post-scarcity economy, in my opinion, you don't even want everyone to work, to contribute. That's the whole point of post-scarcity is you don't have to work anymore. You can do what you want. And most people will choose to work.

It's sort of like in back to the future, when doc is telling people about cars.

"Well, don't people run anymore?"

"Yes, of course they run, but they do it for fun"

"Hah! Running for fun! How ridiculous is that!?"

See what I mean?

[–]Brudaks 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, but that is not a problem - in any case the expectation is that if they don't want to, then there is no reasonable benefit or reason for making those 1/3 people work; that's kind of what "displaces the need for some/most/all workers" literally means.

[–]gu1d3b0t 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I hate to say it, but under a proposal like this at least 1/3 of the people I know would quit working and I'm pretty sure that none of them would have any interest in contributing to their community.

I don't know why you hate to say it. That's an expected consequence of the system. In fact, it's kind of the point. Those people have no business being in a workplace and should be kept as far away from productive people as possible.

[–]riskable 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

How much are these people "contributing" now? If the only reason they "contribute" is because they work to have spending money then their "work" probably isn't actually necessary for society to function.

If there's a shortage of retail workers are we all going to suffer? Or perhaps technology can step in to full that gap.

UBI creates opportunities too.

[–]chingt 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think though it's the anxiety that meaningless work provokes that makes us desire to escape into drinking/drugs and video games. They create for us an alternate world - an escape from the life that feels meaningless.

Without that boring, meaningless job -- that sense of being a slave -- I think people will feel less compelled to escape.

Certainly, the first generation that received UBI would be trapped in the frame of mind they learned under the old world and might go hedonistic, but over time, society would reverse course in terms of what aspects of our humanity are encouraged and which are suppressed.

[–]MustMention 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's an extraordinarily cogent scifi novel, Voyage From Yesteryear, wherein a post-scarcity society essentially has a currency of prestige and respect. Some might opt to stay within their own lives of pleasure and gratification, but far more find a way to distinguish themselves: best baker, most helpful wedding planner, managing the inventories of auto-generated goods "for sale" (available for pickup) in "stores". Quite fascinating. Reminded me of how a dorm floor self organizes based on personalities and interests, since there's too many simple commonalities.

[–]schpdx 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Couple of things: first, who cares what someone does with their money, in the privacy of their own home? Let them play video games, if that's what floats their boat.

Second, most people will tire of playing video games all day, and do something else. Sometimes this may turn into yard work, or gardening, or helping the neighbor put in a patio. Some may even volunteer to help the homeless (although with a UBI, the term should be renamed "houseless").

The point is, even if they only spend 10% of their time helping in the community, it's still more than what happens now, with everyone scrambling just to make ends meet and a roof over their heads. Without money as a driver, people become more free to do what they want to do, rather than what they have to do. And this is good for their well-being, their mood, and thus their health, which reduces overall healthcare costs (among other things).

[–]__________________0_ 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jobs are always created out of a loss of another.

But it's not a 1:1 ratio. It's entirely possible for 10 jobs paying $20k a year being created by removing 1000 jobs that paid $40k a year.

[–]NeckbeardTheElder 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Jobs are always created out of a loss of another.

I don't think that's a safe assumption to make when you are increasing productivity by literally orders of magnitude.

[–]burglebox 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

One alternative is already well underway: the "owners" of the automation (CEO's and wealthy corporate shareholders) will control nearly all of the country's wealth, and the staggeringly large lower class will stand in food lines (riddled with an increasing amount of administrative complexity and caveats) while enduring loud, constant, media-driven derision from our masters who "care" for us despite being so lazy and worthless.

[–]AndTheMeltdowns 9ポイント10ポイント  (57子コメント)

Maybe as an add to this question someone could explain to me why an economy automated by computers would even need a system different from what we've got now.

Workers work less. The average citizen has a significantly smaller buying power. But at the same time, the foods and products they need to buy are being automated and having their production improved so they'll become cheaper. Wouldn't things just scale down in cost naturally?

[–]Brudaks 16ポイント17ポイント  (19子コメント)

The problem that needs solution is that for a fairly large set of people, their labor will be economically worth $0, and the current system doesn't provide for a reasonable way for allocating resources for their basic needs.

Things will scale down in cost, but it doesn't provide a solution for long-term permanent unemployment for millions of able-bodied workers; if "market value" of everything that they can contribute is $0 or near zero - lower than basic food&shelter; then there are IMHO only 3 broad options:

a) they don't get those basic resources - which means "some unpleasant consequences" /s

b) others give them those resources voluntarily - either through individual charity or gov't redistribution like UBI or something else;

c) they [try to] take those resources violently.

I mean, there can be no other way - either the resources get transferred from owners of the automation/capital to people who objectively aren't neccessary in the new world (unlike medieval serfs or industrial revolution laborers) or they don't.

[–]Goblin-Dick-Smasher 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

The problem that needs solution is that for a fairly large set of people, their labor will be economically worth $0

No, that’s not accurate. Labor will always have a value. The exchange is during competition. The value of labor may be less than the value of automation. So it’s more cost effective as the owner of capital to invest in automation as opposed to labor.

and the current system doesn't provide for a reasonable way for allocating resources for their basic needs.

The current system doesn’t have government controlling how resources are allocated for basic needs. The market economy does that. This will not change as it’s been proven to be the most efficient.

Things will scale down in cost, but it doesn't provide a solution for long-term permanent unemployment for millions of able-bodied workers

Unemployment for people that were in industry brackets that have been replaced. I know there is this fear being bandied about that this time it’ll be different than the last few thousand times it happened. But the reality is that none can actually predict what the future will hold.

There are some things that are true. Automation will reach a point where unskilled and minimally skilled labor can be replaced by it. That means that those skillsets will be in far less demand than they are now. Automation already has decreased the number of knowledge workers required to perform a function, however economic growth has seen knowledge worker numbers skyrocket to the point where 38% of the US is classified as “knowledge worker” (40% in Europe).

The definition of the perceived incoming problem is that there will be a large permanently unemployable segment of the workforce. And that permanent unemployability will have a significant impact on social support systems – especially in a country that generally decries social support systems.

[–]Shammyhealz 7ポイント8ポイント  (21子コメント)

Workers work less.

This is the misconception. It's not going to work out to where everyone just works 20 hours a week instead of 40, there are just going to be some who are gainfully employed, and many who have no job at all.

The issue isn't with those who are working, it's with those who have skills that the economy no longer needs, and beyond that, for whom we have no jobs even if they were to learn something useful. The number of doctors is pretty static (or at least the number of man hours needed per year in the field of doctors is). We don't need any more doctors. There are some professions that could scale, but many will not. I suppose alternately we could train people to be doctors, and then just only have doctors work 20 hours a week but there are 2 problems: 1) Is that even a productive use of our limited time and money as a society? 2) Can we even train many of those people to be doctors? The jobs that will be left will not be easy. They will be intellectually strenuous jobs that require a certain amount of intelligence and quite a bit of knowledge. I know quite a few people who I think simply lack the capacity to become a doctor. They have other skills, but those skills may be largely replaced by machines.

[–]TheHardTruthFairy 13ポイント14ポイント  (12子コメント)

Wouldn't things just scale down in cost naturally?

Not if the robots put you out of work entirely. I'm an artist, I'm probably safe (at least until we start teaching robots how to do art) but there are entire classes of jobs that can and eventually will be done entirely by machines. Then the pool of jobs available will shrink so small, unemployment will skyrocket, and anyone who isn't a doctor, scientist, engineer, artist, musician, writer etc will be SOL.

[–]IBuildBrokenThings 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

doctor, scientist, engineer, artist, writer

There are no exceptions ;)

[–]HalfLeafLabel 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

From your artist article...

"You're not likely to see these Facebook and Google programs replacing human artists and photographers, but they're skilled enough to draw images you might enjoy."

[–]IBuildBrokenThings 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes but the goal of these experiments wasn't to create art, it was simply a side effect of trying to visualize what the NN would consider to be classified under a certain category. These images are akin to what we might see if we were able to peer into a dream, random images built up from a daily intake of visual data recombined and amplified.

Besides, as with all art it is in the eye of the beholder. I like many of those images vastly more than I do a lot of the photography or art floating around out there.

[–]nimbleal 12ポイント13ポイント  (29子コメント)

One idea I've not seen mentioned much: increasing the age of compulsory (and free) education. Extend it to 25 or even 30, perhaps (has a double benefit).

Also making domestic quantities of water, gas & electricity, and broadband internet etc. a basic right -- i.e free to all households.

[–]mavajo 18ポイント19ポイント  (11子コメント)

When the education system starts sucking less, I might get on-board with compulsory education. It's an abomination.

[–]TalibanBaconCompany 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

So, we are going to be sending people to school for 20-25 years now? Are you crazy? For what?!?

Even 12 years of the US public school system is too much for a lot of people. We definitely don't need to double down on more useless, indoctrinating crap that most people will never retain or use in the first place.

Face it. A lot of people on this planet are useless or will provide no net result to society.

[–]giantroboticcat 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

It would be worthwhile to have a system of education in place that deviates away from what you HAVE to learn and instead shows people what they CAN learn. It should be less about forcing people to learn things they don't want to learn, and more about giving people the opportunity to learn the things they want to know.

[–]whatzzart 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

I keep seeing the phrase "abundance economy" and "basic income" but two implications keep occurring to me... If basic income supports everyone across all levels of society, no one has to work ( or work is distributed fairly ) won't people procreate more knowing they won't have to foot the bill? If making a child is suddenly cost free won't that discourage family planning? Does basic income encourage overpopulation?

And second, what level of education is sufficient for the basic income group? If they're not going to be specialists or technicians that will service the tech that makes the abundance economy work, what will they do? Not everyone is a latent artist, musician or philosopher. Should we require a return to teaching civics so that people can appreciate their role in society and try to somehow improve their community? Won't abundance and idleness stagnate our society and culture?

[–]TalibanBaconCompany 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I couldn't begin to speculate on how anyone with that much free time would spend their days. What does someone who has been unemployed for years do? I have no idea. Would people start to have more kids because they have more time to bang and no financial worries? Possibly. Who really knows though?

You mentioned 'roles in society' and I think that's at the crux of the matter. Civilization and culture has evolved so much that we can't keep everyone busy. We just can't do it. There aren't enough menial tasks or demand for everyone to have purpose and benefit from that anymore.

I don't think it will stagnate though. There will always be people that want to kick in more than just what it takes to get by. Honestly, I think that attitude prevails over the sponge mentality more than people realize. A bit rose-colored but I believe it to be true.

[–]whatzzart 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree and that's what I can't figure out. When would the reduction in births start and why?

I tell my kids all the time "smart people don't get bored." But I think a lot of people would just reproduce endlessly without a thought to the underpinnings that enable them not work and have all this "free" time and "free" money.

Would there be two different qualities of food, clothing, everyrhing for those who work and for those with a basic income?

Eventually wouldn't that put us back where we started with "class" envy ( for lack of a better term ) between the people still working and achieving more money than those with basic income? Would the people who work have more choices based on making more money, just like it is now?

[–]Impetere 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

increasing the age of compulsory (and free) education. Extend it to 25 or even 30, perhaps

This is the only idea that I've seen that's feasible. Also, don't just progress people if they've reached the end of a grade and call them "educated." Learn the material or you don't advance. If we're extending education to 30 or beyond, I want to know people are actually learning.

[–]danzania 22ポイント23ポイント  (86子コメント)

I'm not sure why UBI became the defacto r/futurology economy...

[–]kaizervonmaanen 16ポイント17ポイント  (47子コメント)

Marxism I guess. Karl Marx was the only political philosopher who saw this as a consequence of capitalism, and he believed that it would end up with some sort of UBI if we want it or not. I do not know of any other who have given a good alternative to when machines take over, if people are left wretched to their own devices then they will probably make lots of noise. I guess you could kill everyone with not enough relevant education, which might pose a threat at a later date. Kill everyone that is unemployed and so on, but then we need robots to do the killing, because the humans who kill knows that in the end they will end up being killed OR they will also rise up and take control.

[–]kastenbrust 3ポイント4ポイント  (16子コメント)

Karl Marx invented one possible consequence of capitalism and then invented a perfect solution for this hypothetical situation, the consequence doesn't necessarily even exist.

[–]__________________0_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (17子コメント)

But communism has consistently failed everywhere it's been implemented.

[–]bobcobb42 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Marxism is an economic theory, communism is a state based ideology. Marxist economics can lead to many possible forms of government.

[–]Impetere 8ポイント9ポイント  (31子コメント)

We should really come up with something that doesn't require us to support huge numbers of uneducated people who are going to contribute nothing to building our spacecraft.

[–]billdietrich1 20ポイント21ポイント  (19子コメント)

The key word might be "uneducated". When people get more educated, they tend to have fewer children, and want to do useful work. Of course, to get educated properly, you must be fed and sheltered and clothed properly, have security and health, etc.

[–]protestor 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

and want to do useful work

Uneducated people want to do useful work too. The big problem is that the kind of work that they might find fulfilling is one that doesn't pay enough to pay the bills.

By the way, this happens with educated people too: they might as well want to paint or observe nature. Those activities might be subsidized to the point of being their full time job, but if not they also need a source of income.

[–]BCSteve 15ポイント16ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well, the notion that having to support a bunch of people who "contribute nothing" is bad comes from our current economic system where everything is driven by scarcity. When resources are scarce, supporting someone who's free-loading takes away stuff from people who are contributing. When we talk about implementing a UBI system, usually it's in the context of us transitioning to a society that is starting to become post-scarcity. If you have more resources than you know what to do with, "supporting" people who aren't contributing no longer becomes such a big deal.

That's the whole shift in mindset that has to happen for UBI to be implemented. For all of human history, there's been the thought of "you have to work and contribute your fair share of labor in order to survive." This doesn't work in a post-scarcity society, when there's more labor available than there are things to be done. Our current economic system isn't equipped to handle a society where people are unemployed not because they're lazy, but but because there's no demand for their labor.

[–]danzania 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, it's like these people have never played Civilization.

[–]protestor 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Essentially, providing services to rich people.

For example, in some parts of the world it's expensive to have a babysitter. But if automation makes unemployment skyrocket, there will be a lot of people willing to work for a far smaller babysitter's paycheck. Of course, having a babysitter is a privilege - the babysitter doesn't typically have their own babysitter.

But any service will do - if labor becomes cheap, rich people may find creative ways to use their laborers. The reason that jobs are becoming automated is that machines are cheaper than people. But a large unemployment will keep labor cheap anyway, at disposal of people with enough money.

The trouble here is what happens when rich people decide they don't want to spend money on the services of poor people. If people don't have jobs, they are not able to consume. I think that ultimately it will be the large companies that will be pushing for UBI, to be able to sell stuff to jobless people.

[–]JonnyLatte 10ポイント11ポイント  (15子コメント)

People could live directly off of the machines. Seriously if you have machines that could perform any function a human can perform then all it takes is one person to instruct one machine to build enough machines like itself to service the needs of all people.

You dont need to get to the point of super intelligence though. Just having androids that could run homeless shelters would be a good start. Having them autonomously do any public good: build and maintain infrastructure. This way you don't need to tax anyone, in fact you don't need to be a government to do it (you just need to have them get out of your way).

At some point someones going to make robots that do agriculture and its related logistics that just give away the produce (maybe with some ratings system so people don't abuse the system) and then it wont matter if people are out of a job.

I think not having to tax is important because there are so many human endeavors that are simply not profitable in a monetary sense that the tax system destroys. Simply being self sufficient for example, if it requires more than one person to be self sufficient then people would could be self sufficient as a group by trading cannot be because their trade gets taxed and now the resources they where using to be self sufficient get drained away by their need to either sell capital or produce excess in order to pay the tax. Another example would be conservation: half of the undeveloped forests in the united states are privately owned. People it turns out actually like owning a chunk of land and just keeping it to have it but if land is taxed then again they cant just keep it in a state of nature, they have to figure out some way to make it profitable beyond their simple enjoyment of it as a capital owner but as a way to feed the tax system.

hmm, ok that turned into a rant

TL;DR: live off of the machines

[–]kleinergruenerkaktus 7ポイント8ポイント  (10子コメント)

Taxes are important to fund public infrastructure, like schools, roads, government and law enforcement etc. Public infrastructure doesn't only need labor, it also requires resources that are not and won't be free. Acting like the tax system was a negative thing is a pretty ignorant opinion.

[–]cjet79 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

Most of the things you mentioned aren't public goods in the economics sense, and thus wouldn't actually need a special funding mechanism (i.e. normal consumer spending would work just fine).

Economists agree that any good that is non-rivalrous (one person's consumption doesn't lower another person's consumption) and non-excludable (there is no economically efficient way to exclude non-paying consumers) will be under-provided relative to normal goods.

A good example of an actual public good is catastrophic asteroid defense. If you save the world from a giant asteroid you can't exclude people that didn't pay for the rocket, and my enjoyment of an undestroyed planet isn't lessened by anyone else's enjoyment of an undestroyed planet.

Taxes that go to pay for normal goods are transfer payments and a result of political rent-seeking. Its a pretty ignorant opinion to consider such payments economically beneficial, but such payments make up the majority of the US budget.

[–]billdietrich1 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

Government support for services for the poor. Not direct cash to the poor. Vouchers or something for services.

Rather than a guaranteed minimum income, and leaving people to purchase everything (housing, education, childcare, healthcare, etc) in the open market, let's fix the government and private support services. We should have universal single-payer health insurance and healthcare. We should turn schools (public or private) into one-stop family-support centers: school, free meals, medical clinic, day-care, tutoring, counseling all in one place, so the working poor have a place to leave their kids while the adults are at work. We should have apartment blocks (govt or private) that are people-support centers: housing, food, counseling, medical clinic, mass transit stop, security all in one place, so the homeless and working poor have a place to live and support for getting off drugs and alcohol and getting medical care.

This is a paternalistic approach. But I think a lot of people have shown that they need guidance and support. The free-market, free-agent approach often doesn't work.

[–]Yasea 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

There is:

  • No money. Basically all goods and services are free.

  • Alternative money, like money with a negative interest rate would make the economy behave differently. Or commodity based money. And time based currencies.

  • Land based contributions. No more taxes on labor, but you don't own land anymore. Instead it is rented from the government. This shifts a large part of taxes and financing.

  • Co-operative organization. Most automation is owned by workers or community jointly and profits or products go to those people.

[–]Jackten 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well, its not pretty, but population control maybe

[–]Impetere 4ポイント5ポイント  (19子コメント)

An achievement based education system that doesn't throw people out the door when they hit an arbitrary goal like "completed 12 grades". We need to remove the stigma attached to an adult needing to go back to school to learn how to do something basic like read well.

Edit: downvotes for restructuring our education system to meet the needs of the unemployed? It's not as easy, but much more economically sound than free money is.

[–]gildoth 4ポイント5ポイント  (18子コメント)

People need to come to grips with the fact that there is not going to be a need for the vast majority of human labour. The only question we then have to answer is how are we going to feed, cloth, and house everyone when there aren't any jobs for them to perform to earn an income.

[–]MadDogTannen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

how are we going to feed, cloth, and house everyone when there aren't any jobs for them to perform to earn an income.

If we're at a point where we're so productive without human inputs that we have eliminated the need for the vast majority of labor, wouldn't products be ridiculously cheap to the point that a person would barely need any income to meet basic needs?

[–]rormc 39ポイント40ポイント  (15子コメント)

I have to work 40 hours a week for about 30k $ a year, If I could I would rather stay in bed longer in the morning. Maybe I would work for 10 hours a week just for fun if it wasn't necessary to work. But, seems to me most of the people will lose their incentive to work and not much work will be done anymore. I don't get how this will ever work.

[–]tryify 26ポイント27ポイント  (6子コメント)

Hah. They WILL lose incentive to work shitty jobs. If your job is shit and you wouldn't do it if you didn't get paid, then isn't it a good thing that there is no artificial motive pushing you towards it? It would free up that job to people who wanted to do it. And if no one wants to do that job because it's shitty, then they have to increase the incentives to get people to work it. It's that simple. All a UBI does is properly price labor in an era where capital already owns all the means of production so that every shop on every corner block can't stuff their production lines or shops or what have you with debt peon waged employees because those people are forced to choose between work those jobs or not eat. Now the eating is the baseline and working is optional, instead of leaving eating as an option, which is a ridiculous notion unto itself in an era of so-called progress and bounty.

[–]monty845 188ポイント189ポイント  (348子コメント)

The Author looses all credibility by not seriously tackling how we are going to pay for it. Based on his own numbers, we are talking about 7.5 Trillion in UBI payments each year. It would take a ton more than just eliminating existing programs to pay for that. 6.5 Trillion is the total spending of the Federal Government, and the State Governments, and the local government. The Federal budget is 3.5-3.8 Trillion. So we are more than doubling the federal budget on this program alone, not even considering if we want to spend any money on anything else, like defense, or humanitarian aid, or science. Could we do it? Probably, but it would have a huge impact on the economy, its more than what we spent on our recent wars over the course of a decade, each year.

That isn't to say UBI wont eventually happen, but it probably wont be that generous, and certainly the changes to the economy that would permit anything close to payments of that size hasn't happened yet.

[–]Impetere 42ポイント43ポイント  (22子コメント)

This. So many people I've talked to who support UBI only have a basic idea of how an economy actually functions, and will hit me with nice sounding arguments like "we'll be living in a post debt based society " that actually hold no water if you know anything about economics or finance.

How are you going to prevent inflation? Economic stagnation? Capital flight? These are not minor quibbles. They are serious challenges that UBI needs to address at a higher than rhetorical level if it ever going to have serious support.

[–]mikeytd 6ポイント7ポイント  (15子コメント)

Question. What are some of the ideas in preventing inflation when UBI is applied in society? Wouldn't the price of everything go up when everyone earns an extra 30k a year?

[–]rowsforthebros 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, mostly for basic necessities and other goods purchased in greatest number by the poor. Exactly the goods you would not want to inflate

[–]Hashiru 18ポイント19ポイント  (12子コメント)

I was also going to come here and comment on how the funding would be raised. I think the big elephant in the room for these type of UBI ideas is where does the money come from?

A lot point to the defense budget but I think realistically a lot of that defense budget actually goes back to pay American workers in the Defense industry. I know of entire towns of 20,000 people that basically would disappear if the defense industry went away. You would eliminating high tech engineering/scientist jobs in order to support someone without a job.

Redistribution of wealth is redistribution. You aren't creating something from no where you are taking it from someone and giving it to someone else.

[–]bicameral_mind 16ポイント17ポイント  (5子コメント)

Not to mention the role defense spending plays in securing America's place in global trade. They might laugh at how ridiculous it is to have all these aircraft carriers and submarines, but they won't find it so amusing when in their absence China or Russia or some other global power moves in and starts implementing trade barriers on us the way we might apply them to Iran. Our entire lifestyles are predicated on a certain level of global dominance that is already waning.

[–]GracchiBros 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

As you said, it's all just redistribution. Personally, I'd rather do it somewhat equally to support all of society than just reward those high tech jobs that lead to endless wars (and all kinds of other nefarious things).

[–]Goblin-Dick-Smasher 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Author looses all credibility by not seriously tackling how we are going to pay for it.

Bingo!

This is the problem with every single UBI discussion I have had. Everyone ignores real math and just points me to polly-anna magic stuff.

There is no way to pay for this at all. None. It is untenable.

[–]AntiSpec 9ポイント10ポイント  (10子コメント)

One of the problems that I haven't seen anyone address is the population boom that you'll get from UBI. You'll also get an influx of illegal immigrants.

[–]NthOrderRamification 54ポイント55ポイント  (184子コメント)

I agree the author should have addressed funding, but you are way off on your numbers.

Any realistic implementation of basic income would require a staggered tax bracket so that anyone already making more than ~2x the basic income wouldn't receive any benefits. You also have to account for all of the social programs it would replace.

I'm not necessarily for basic income, though I think it's an interesting idea to think about. Here is a very simple example with more concrete numbers.

tl;dr it would cost about a trillion dollars, which is about how much we spend currently on social programs.

[–]L_Cranston_Shadow 109ポイント110ポイント  (11子コメント)

It may seem just semantic but the moment you add any conditions it is no longer basic income, it is a reverse tax.

[–]dirtyword 37ポイント38ポイント  (5子コメント)

No longer universal, anyway.

[–]CdnGuy 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

If you tax someone's UBI as if it were income it is still universal. It just means that some people who make a lot of money pay more in tax than they receive from UBI.

[–]MaximilianKohler 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, what it is is a guaranteed minimum income.

[–]the_zukk 18ポイント19ポイント  (13子コメント)

The definition of basic income is it is given to everyone regardless of income. Otherwise you are talking about wealth distribution. Taxing the rich and giving it to the poor. OPs numbers are more correct. With 245 million people over 18 and 30000 per year you are on the hook for 7.5 trillion per year. Way more than we spend today. We would have to raise taxes drastically to pay for something like that.

[–]Wallsie 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

30000 per person is ludicrous. When it happens it'll probably be closer to 15-20k for both affordability and to incentivize people to keep trying to be productive.

[–]the_zukk 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

My next question is what about rapid inflation? If everyone was 30k richer (or 15k) all of a sudden wouldn't businesses raise prices knowing more people could purchase their product. Supply and demand?

[–]dewooPickle 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

30k is crazy. Most talk over at r/basicincome is usually around 12k so less than 3 trillion total based on your numbers above. And basic income is wealth redistribution so there would be no inflation. Once you make over a certain threshold you would be paying more in taxes than you get from BI checks.

[–]the_zukk 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why not do a consumption tax in lieu of a increased income tax on the rich? And designate a tax refund of x dollars per year which is tied to the poverty line. For example 12k /yr? And only tax luxury items (meaning no food, certain homes, other things required to live would be tax free). That way the rich pay a lot in taxes because they buy a lot of luxury items and get a small percentage back and the poor pay nearly zero in taxes but get 12 k back. This eliminates the stigma of taxing the rich directly but they effectively pay more in taxes. This also gives the rich the choice to live tax free (or whatever taxes they want) by living frugally.

[–]davosBTC 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Not that this changes anything, but at least the article says 'pre-tax', so even without a change in taxation we're only on the hook for about $6T (lol).

[–]approx- 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Why would you tax a basic income? Just give a lower amount to start with...

[–]the_zukk 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man these numbers are just staggering. I just don't see how taxing the wealthy enough to come up with that amount of money doesn't cripple the economy.

[–]flupo42 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

first, that's not universal basic income.

Second - unless this coincides with a huge improvement of standard working conditions (like say transitioning to 20-30 hour workweek), trading over half of one's free time for only 2x increase in income isn't going to be attractive to anyone.

One of the big selling points of UBI is it that keeping it truly universal would get around the substantial problem of existing social benefit programs where they literally discourage people from seeking employment.

If one does try to put such conditions on the 'universal' part of the idea, those conditions better kick in at MUCH higher brackets. Think 4x BI amount at a minimum - going less is just going to cripple society.

[–]Impetere 45ポイント46ポイント  (123子コメント)

So why wouldn't those people, the hard workers and the rich, go somewhere without UBI and keep more of their income? Capital flight will happen. What you'll end up with is a society full of people on UBI with no one on the other side of the equation supporting them.

[–]__________________0_ 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

So why wouldn't those people, the hard workers and the rich, go somewhere without UBI and keep more of their income? Capital flight will happen.

You're right. They will do that. Most of the posts on here are nothing more than wishful thinking. They aren't well thought out.

You cannot run a country where most people do not produce and just suck up taxes. The subsidizers will simply leave.

[–]teh_tg 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey, stop quoting actual history. This is Reddit.

[–]branedead 9ポイント10ポイント  (113子コメント)

That will eventually only include the third world

[–]Impetere 26ポイント27ポイント  (110子コメント)

No. What wiil happen is the rich will move somewhere and make it nice. I hear Costa Rica is wonderful this time of year.

[–]off_the_grid_dream 21ポイント22ポイント  (93子コメント)

People say that about every tax change/law change. I am moving if "----" is enacted/elected. Guess what, they are still here after the change. People aren't going to leave everything over a change unless it is a massive impact on their lifestyle.

[–]Impetere 33ポイント34ポイント  (78子コメント)

The Economist says this would be a 60% marginal increase in taxes. Even the UBI apologists say it will be a 35% increase. You're going to essentially double my tax rate if I'm a worker? If I make, say, $1,000,000 a year, you're going to take an additional $350,000 to pay for, not defense, or road improvements, but support for all those people who in High School told me studying would never get me anywhere?

No. For $350,000-$600,000 a year in additional income, I am moving.

[–]off_the_grid_dream 11ポイント12ポイント  (62子コメント)

Okay, guess your company has to move to or will you magically get a $1,000,000 job the instant you move? If so, can I have one too. Seriously though, a raise of 20% for higher brackets should be coming anyway. Philanthropy used to pay for a lot of public works but the wealthy have really dropped the ball as government costs have ballooned. I think UBI is going to be a necessity at some point. So many jobs are going to be obsolete or done by robots soon that we will need SOMETHING. And there won't be jobs for everyone, there already isn't enough if everyone decided to work.

[–]AutomateAllTheThings 4ポイント5ポイント  (11子コメント)

I am a software engineer that works remotely. I can literally live anywhere with an internet connection and have a job before I get there.

Remote work is becoming standard. Remote workers will flee for the extra money with their families. I know I would.

[–]Impetere 17ポイント18ポイント  (20子コメント)

It's about skills. If your a top-notch engineering company, all you have to do is build an office, and voila, you can export your entire business. Tesla is building its Gigafactory in Nevada? Nope. For a 35% tax savings for its entire workforce, it's going to build it in Costa Rica.

The something that has to be done is to come up with a better way to turn the proportion of people who will grow up to be McDonalds workers into people who will grow up to be computer-programmers, engineers, tech-entrepreneurs etc. Education is the only way out of this. It's the same way we got out of every innovation revolution ever.

[–]Cary_Fukunaga 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its not as simple as you make it out here. You cant easily pack up and move operations, even relatively simple sectors like design and engineering which don't have a lot of equipment/personnel, cannot just pick up and move to a third world country and still keep everything the same as onshore. Costs would increase, quality would go down, communication would suffer, people would miss their family and friends, and you would lose business even to the more expensive on shore operations.

[–]chomstar 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm pretty sure the long, long term goal is a word where there are no more jobs

[–]off_the_grid_dream 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Wow. If you think every child can be an engineer then I support your effort. Having been in education for 12 years I say good luck. Half of the grade 7's I know can't multiply. That has to do with home life and genetics more than teachers IMO. If parents can't help a child improve a teacher can't in just 5 hours when there are 30 other kids too. To fix the education system you must first address the poverty/social problem. Kids that do poorly are most often from low income/poorly educated families. Read Ivan Illitch for a much better explanation than I can provide. Basically, no matter how much money you put unto a school the impact is still the same. The rich get better and the poor barely improve. It has happened many times over.

[–]__________________0_ 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

The something that has to be done is to come up with a better way to turn the proportion of people who will grow up to be McDonalds workers into people who will grow up to be computer-programmers, engineers, tech-entrepreneurs etc. Education is the only way out of this.

This is untrue and ignoring currently-known facts.

Business drives worker demand, not the other way around. You cannot saturate a market with engineers and expect them to all find well-paying jobs. It's supply/demand. It is entirely possible to saturate a market and cause wages to drop like a rock.

The reason that there are so many people working at Wal-Mart and fast food jobs is because there are so many jobs that need to be done. The reason there aren't many neurosurgeons is because there aren't many needed positions. The reason neurosurgeons make as much money as they do is because there are even less qualified workers.

You simply cannot train all of the future Wal-Mart workers to be neurosurgeons and expect them to find jobs because there aren't that many jobs available.

[–]__________________0_ 1ポイント2ポイント  (24子コメント)

So many jobs are going to be obsolete or done by robots soon that we will need SOMETHING

Nobody is denying that. But doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing. It can horribly backfire.

[–]1RedOne 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think we should greatly re arrange our tax brackets anyway.

Does it make sense that you pay the same percentage of tax from $55k $75k all the way up to $285k $145k? I think not, especially considering the tremendous gulf of tax shelters available to people on the bottom end of that bracket.

Something crazy is that if you make $75k, congrats, you're now only 3% of income tax away from someone bringing in 225k. I think these tables are harshly skewed to make mega earners pay little in taxes.

I also think it's unlikely that people are taking home 500k in paychecks, as at that level, you'll easily have more than you need to easily survive in a life of great luxury, so you would opt for other pay methods, like tax incentives. E: Changed the number, as I was wrong, and added this table of taxes:

2015 Tax Table

Income Tax Percentage
< 18.5 K 10%
18.5k ~ 73.8k 15%
74k ~ 148k 25%
148k ~ 226k 28%
226k ~ 405k 33%
405k ~ 457k 35%
> 457k 39%

[–]approx- 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

You do understand how taxation works right? That you only pay the same percentage on whatever income is above $74k? Because if you think about it, it does exactly what you want it to - it slowly increases the overall percentage you pay in tax as your income increases. The overall percentage paid for $80k income will be lower than $125k.

[–]Billebill 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The middle upper class shuffles down to the middle class, the upper class gets the heck outta town and the top tier just uses loop holes that their highly paid tax attorney's lobbied for so that they hardly pay any taxes

[–]__________________0_ 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

There's a major difference between someone venting because you're taxing them an extra $2,000 a year and someone planning to move because you're making them pay an extra $400,000 a year.

[–]MadDogTannen 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Didn't a lot of manufacturing jobs move overseas because of lower labor costs abroad? Don't companies like Apple keep huge amounts of capital overseas to avoid taxes? Seems to me that going international to avoid high taxes is a pretty common thing to do.

[–]JOSHardson 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's kinda wonderful all times of year. I even enjoyed my two weeks during their rainy season. I miss you Costa Rica.

[–]Agallion 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which they would live in, in luxury and 1st world amenities.

[–]__________________0_ 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

tl;dr it would cost about a trillion dollars[2] , which is about how much we spend currently on social programs[3] .

I don't see how this will cost the same. You're going to be giving more money to more people than you do now.

Also, since those people are now getting UBI instead of working they're not paying taxes... they're sucking up taxes.

So instead of assuming that the government is still pulling in the same amount of tax revenue that they do now, you need to assume that it's making much, much less since you have less people working and more people getting handouts.

[–]1RedOne 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Sorry, but to clarify, at a trillion dollars per year in cost, what would be the projected UBI payment per person a year, and could you give me some examples of the restrictions?

What I'm seeking to learn:

  • at 1 trillion a year, how much does the average Joe receive?
  • any restrictions you could think of, like earning limits to still receive the money,for instance.

Do you guys think this would have an inflationary effect on the dollar? If everyone suddenly had n + 30,000 dollars, would the price of good increase substantially?

[–]davosBTC 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

As others have said, there are about 240ish million people over 18 in the USA. ~$1trillion/~240million people ≈$4200 per person

[–]1RedOne 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's way less than $30k a year. Did I miss something from this blog post, or was the author a bit, uh, incorrect in her math?

[–]approx- 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The author was quite a bit incorrect in her math.

[–]rowsforthebros 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, mostly for basic necessities and other goods purchased in greatest number by the poor. Exactly the goods you would not want to inflate

[–]dingoperson2 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Any realistic implementation of basic income would require a staggered tax bracket so that anyone already making more than ~2x the basic income wouldn't receive any benefits.

Uh.. that pretty much defies any definition of Universal Basic Income.

[–]mixduptransistor 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

But the way the author presented it, everyone would get it. "Even Hillary Clinton's grandchild"

Now, maybe you increase taxes to make up for that, I don't know, but it's a detail that needs to be addressed. Iraq + Afghanistan cost a few trillion dollars, but that was over the course of 10+ years. A $30,000 UBI to every single adult in the country would cost over $5 trillion each year.

[–]Silveress_Golden 4ポイント5ポイント  (20子コメント)

The author did address where the funding would come from:

Here’s a very simple suggestion: what if we got rid of EVERY safety net, from SNAP to Social Security to Unemployment, and pooled that money together to create a guaranteed minimum income of $30,000 to be paid to every living American, eighteen and older.

Also this is not a bad idea to begin with, combined with this:

In addition, we cut our military spending and add that money to the pool as well.

[–]nahm17 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those numbers seem way off.

[–]Fenris_uy 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

The US spends 1T dollars currently in the safety net, and 1.5T in the military (during Iraq and Afghanistan), where do you get the remaining 5T that you need to cover for this?

[–]mixduptransistor 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

The total US yearly federal budget is something like $3.5 Trillion.

The proposed UBI payments in the original article would be something like $5-7 Trillion, depending on whether it's taxed or not.

No amount of redistributing welfare or cutting defense will pay for it alone.

[–]SolidGold54 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I have to say this because you say the author lost all credibility: The author is female (so not "his"). Her picture is right at the top of the article lol. Also, it's "loses."

I had this idea before as well, and when I got to calculating how much it would cost, I quickly realized that is why we don't do it and probably never will. However, the implementation I entertained included giving the stipend to everyone (and I think only $20k). Personally, if I could make 60k working full time or make 30k for doing squat, I'd choose the latter. This is why I think a realistic UBI of any kind would have to be different than just paying it to those already below that income threshold. I do think something like a UBI may be necessary as more jobs are eliminated by automation and not replaced while our population continues to grow.

[–]lvl30snorlax 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The point of this is that you wouldn't have to choose. You would make 90k, because you have a 60k job.

[–]getut 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are things that are good in theory but don't work out in pratice... and unfortunately motivation to keep from starving is all that keeps a small but significant portion of the population from being anything other than a parasite. It is cruel but it is the law of nature and no amount of "culture" is going to change that. There needs to always be consequences for able bodied and minded people that refuse to hit a lick at anything.

[–]ReasonablyBadass 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think the main selling point for BI is automation. When the vast majority of work is automated, some method will have to be implemented to share the wealth.

[–]hadtoupvotethat 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The author lost credibility and outed herself as an "occupy wall street" kind of thinker well before that, when she said:

The system of welfare, social security and other social support systems that we currently employ are based on the desire for those who have, to lord over those who don’t. (emphasis mine)

There's also this gem:

one war in Iraq has cost us TRILLIONS, so please don’t say we don’t have enough money

Err, you don't have enough money! Just because it was spent doesn't mean you could actually afford it and, even if you could afford it for a while, that doesn't mean you can afford it forever.

[–]rilivas 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dont forget to factor in that current US GDP is only 17.41 Trillion. Oh yeah and as soon as we drop our millitary spending budget some country who doesnt is going to conquer us as fast as you can say 'oops!'

[–]rovebadger 49ポイント50ポイント  (79子コメント)

What happens if I take the $30K, spend it irresponsibly, and am then unable to provide for my basic needs?

Do the people around me then have the same obligation to provide me with food, shelter and utilities as they had before, or is it now 'my problem'?

I can only envisage this scheme being even faintly practical if the entitlement was in terms of utility/housing/food credits, rather than cash.

[–]ExpatMeNow 13ポイント14ポイント  (7子コメント)

I was surprised to have to scroll down this far before seeing this point. The author made a huge jump between "$30k a year for everyone" and "now that everyone is clothed, fed, and sheltered ..." People who are shockingly irresponsible with money aren't going to suddenly become less so. Now they just have an extra 30k of government money to gamble away or snort.

[–]0x31333337 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's the same like of thinking that makes most people assume homelessness can be 100% solved, even if adequate mental and physical health help is available.

[–]Impetere 29ポイント30ポイント  (33子コメント)

One of the real challenges with UBI is that it's conceptualized by educated people who just happened to not be able to find good work. It completely ignores that a good portion of the population has no interest in self improvement towards something that will make them more economically valuable. They'll still keep drinking Buckfast and playing the lotto.

[–]snazztasticmatt 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

a good portion of the population has no interest in self improvement

I think this is a pretty big misconception about poverty. Most people living in poverty grew up in the same environment with parents who didn't know a lot about how to deal with money. They were always taught that you buy what you can with what little money that you have, and you spend all of it cause there isn't much, because you know that it may not be there for long. Now you're given more money than you've ever made, but you still don't know how to use it correctly. You just keep doing what your parents did - spend it all because for all you know, it could be gone tomorrow

[–]MooseV2 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

I know a person who was raised in poverty because his parents were unlucky (laid off, injuries, things out of their control) but still worked hard and lived frugally. He has one of the best work ethics I've seen and is currently working hard in school to get a good education.

I know another person who's parents unnecessarily spend all their money so they live paycheck to paycheck and don't care about credit card debt. He dropped out of school, has terrible money management skills, and will probably keep his minimum wage factory job for the rest of his life.

UBI would help the first guy and his family turn their life around.

UBI would give the second guy the money to start an addiction or buy a new TV and wouldn't change his life. He wouldn't go to school or look for a better job. It would probably be detrimental to his life if anything.

Unfortunately, I know more people living in poverty like person 2 than person 1.

[–]mofosyne 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Basic income = preventative medicine

Welfare or social worker = emergency medicine

You can have both. Plus the one you save will now be a potential taxpayer. And via the joy of modern efficiency they can do the job of many, and thus easily sustain both the social worker and the "freeloaders"

[–]supercore23 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not so sure that poor people are "taught" to spend all their money. Rather, saving money is hard for everybody. We need to make financial literacy just as important a part of school as history or english.

[–]Impetere 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, it's not a misconception. You just put together a very well written paragraph. The education it took to do that is more than most people will ever care to get in a lifetime. We'll drink and drink and drink and drink and drink and drink and fight.

[–]talentpun 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

It completely ignores that a good portion of the population has no interest in self improvement towards something that will make them more economically valuable

I would elaborate and say a good portion of the population has no interest in improving society or creating value that is economically responsible.

I know way more rich kids that waste money and have no real interest in self-improvement or contributing to society than poor people just looking for a decent job that actually matters. The dream of most rich kids I know is to get an MBA and a front office job. If you really have no balls or initiative, you go into marketing. Not a real management job. Not being an entrepreneur. Basically being a yes man at a fortune 500.

Being 'economically valuable' has more to do with your ability to market yourself than actually create value by provide a service, or creating product society actually needs.

In fact, I would say poor people are more inclined to do volunteer and community work, and donate to small causes.

[–]Impetere 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

An person with an MBA or a marketing degree is just a yes man. Funny. Tell me how to comply with GAP so that I don't defraud people out of money, or how to rebrand Old Spice from a cologne company for old men to a trendy shampoo brand for young people. Just be a yes man. Be rich and nod your head. Oh man, haha.

[–]ByWayOfLaniakea 20ポイント21ポイント  (18子コメント)

What happens if I take the $30K, spend it irresponsibly, and am then unable to provide for my basic needs?

The same thing that would happen if you took your pay checks and spent them irresponsibly.

I can only envisage this scheme being even faintly practical if the entitlement was in terms of utility/housing/food credits, rather than cash.

Freedom of choice is a big aspect of UBI, and credits specific toward services or goods in particular, without the flexibility of cash, greatly restricts freedom of choice.

What would someone do if they wanted to eat very little and sleep under the stars for a summer, to save up for an RV? With cash UBI, they could. With the idea of credit UBI, they couldn't do so and come out ahead. Greater flexibility allows the end user to tailor their spending to their needs... or it allows them to waste every last cent.

[–]andrewsmd87 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

You have a little bit of an optimistic view. What about the kid who's parent has a gambling or drug problem and doesn't buy them food. Right now we have social programs for that. If we cut them all, that kid starves. I'm all for the ubi, but it's not as simple as this poorly written article suggests. Plus, you probably wouldn't give it to everyone. If you're making a certain amount at your current job, you shouldn't be eligible

[–]ByWayOfLaniakea 10ポイント11ポイント  (3子コメント)

Plus, you probably wouldn't give it to everyone. If you're making a certain amount at your current job, you shouldn't be eligible

Everyone receives the universal basic income, or it's not universal. Some, as you point out, make enough that the taxes are higher than the UBI payment, in which case they effectively receive only a large tax cut. Either way, it's extra money in their pocket, which is a good thing for money velocity and consumer spending.

What about the kid who's parent has a gambling or drug problem and doesn't buy them food. Right now we have social programs for that.

True. I personally am for a UBI that is $1,000 per month per adult, and $300 per month per minor, but even putting that money directly in the hands of the minor and having it untouchable by the adult could allow problems.

There's no way around someone determined to make terrible choices, aside from locking them in a room with their hands bound for their own good. Perhaps CPS as it is today would remain a good compromise solution to child welfare?

[–]CasuallyErect 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some, as you point out, make enough that the taxes are higher than the UBI payment, in which case they effectively receive only a large tax cut.

Yeah, go ahead and run those numbers champ. Either you're suggesting we just start printing more money, or somebody is going to be be getting a massive tax hike and a pittance of UBI in return, for a net increase in their tax bill. A $30,000 credit at the expense of $200,000 increase in taxes does not mean a decrease in their taxes.

[–]AKnightAlone 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's no logical reason to give a UBI in one lump sum. It would probably be best as a weekly amount so people can know exactly how much they need to get by. Remember, society is not concrete. Everything is created. An argument against society coming together on something would be a bit like doubting money could work for an exchange system. It happened, it has structure, it's worked. With automation in the horizon, we need something to make this work. If we don't have it, we'll have slums and violent rebellion across the country that would ruin life for those who do survive well.

[–]Bexly1193 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

What percentage of people living solely off welfare do this today? You have your answer.

Simply put, the needs of the many outweigh the idiocy of the few. Yes, some people would abuse such a thing, but most would not.

[–]ITS_JUST_LOW_T 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Except 'welfare' doesn't just write you a check for the full amount. Yeah, there are a few benefits that work like cash, but the vast majority of them come in the form of healthcare and credit that can only be spent on approved items like healthy food, diapers, etc.

[–]KrunktheDrunk 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

That is right out of my favorite sci-fi series by David Weber. He had a interstellar power called the Republic of Haven that had a movement called the Doleists who supported this idea. Basically it degenerated into a block of people whose only purpose was to vote for a higher UBI and it eventually broke their economy so bad they turned militaristic expansion to support the payments by taking over their neighbors.

[–]officerbill_ 19ポイント20ポイント  (37子コメント)

The author has a glaring omission. All social welfare programs have been supplanted, so what happens to a person who spends his 30K and then gets sick (no medicare/medicaid) or runs out of food (no food stamps) or can't pay the rent (no welfare)?

[–]officerbill_ 11ポイント12ポイント  (10子コメント)

What I'm getting at is; how would society react if a large minority of the people spent wasted their $30,000 or had 1/2 a dozen kids and did not have money for rent, medical care or food?

Would there then be calls for the gov't to provide the necessities for them, thus restarting welfare? Or would the system have to be set up so that there were restrictions on how the money could be spent?

[–]Ebenezar_McCoy 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Come on down to Uncle Bobs Incredible used cars. Do you have a UBI card? Well you're in luck, bring down your UBI card and walk out the door with a car. No credit? No problem. No down payment? No problem. All you need is a pulse and a UBI card. We won't even check your ID, bring in your friend's UBI, your mom's, some guy you robbed last week, we don't care.

We've got Escalades, Tahoes, BMWs, do you love the Dodge Challenger? Cuz we've got 13 of them. Remember, at Uncle Bobs Incredible used cars we'll sell to anyone with a UBI card.

[–]Sirisian 23ポイント24ポイント  (15子コメント)

A lot of UBI proposals I've seen use something like a debit card with very frequent deposits like weekly rather than monthly or yearly. In theory it could be daily.

[–]Ebenezar_McCoy 1ポイント2ポイント  (14子コメント)

That still doesn't cover health care. What about the person who has spent their weekly allotment and breaks their arm? Are they put on some sort of payment plan? Then a kid needs surgery and then they have to get their appendix out. Before long 100% of their UBI is going to pay off debts.

[–]AKnightAlone 3ポイント4ポイント  (11子コメント)

What if there was also this crazy thing called Universal Healthcare?

[–]Ebenezar_McCoy 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

So you're taking away medicaid, medicare and other welfare to fund UBI, what funds universal healthcare?

[–]Ponado 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Let them and die in the street.

We already do it now with many homeless.

[–]upvotesthenrages 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you are doing UBI, you might as well add universal healthcare in there too....

[–]el_muerte17 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Really should go without saying, IMO. The United States is the only first-world country that doesn't have universal health care... maybe it's time to get with the program.

[–]0x31333337 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wish we would focus on affordable healthcare first, it would solve the underlying issue. What insanity led to my insurance company being charged 1400$ for a 10 cent IV bag? Healthcare shouldn't be for profit (note: this not not an exaggeration)

[–]kainel 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I want to say it is vietnam ( it might not be, I am going from memory) but one country has a mandatory health savings account.

By implementing this... lets say 29k a year + 1k health savings fund, you might be able to offset this issue. it would take some bureaucracy to access the remaining emergency money.

[–]OliverSparrow 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

All of this is premised on the very questionable notions that:

1: Work will fade away and automation will provide plenty. The alternative view is that machinery will displace people, much as steam looms replaced had weavers, or railway trains drovers and carters - and we will find new things to do. That leaves a residuum of people who cannot or will not up-skill, which reduces to an issue of welfare.

2: That the nation state will hold up as the unit of solidarity. Denmark looks after Denmark's deadbeats. That model may fail in the next few decades, for lots of reasons. We have acquired the habit of assuming that the able will support the less able, region by region, each treated separately. The capable accept that the state lifts half of their earnings from their pockets for nebulous schemes of general welfare. Patience with this may fade as the unemployable cease to be relevant at any level. Note, too, that a UBI without boundaries will dissolve into the poor billions, leaving nothing to the incapable in the rich world.

3: Demographics mean that support for old age will consume a third or mnore of state spending in the old rich world, and continue to do so into the 2040s, even is life extension technologies do not expand on that.

4: The much more likely world is one in which intellect-multipliers are focused around corporations and innovative/ wealth generating clusters, amplifying their abilities. This is not either machines or people, but machines with people making something truly unimaginable from contemporary perspectives. Plug that into (2) above and you get something strange, a "business class" world interlaced with assorted blocks that have been left behind, are racing to catch up, are physically co-located with these centres of excellence or geographically remote from them. The politics of that are unimaginable, but the won't be majoritarian democracies in the C18th of the US, Europe and so on.

This whole boondoggle rests on an extrapolation of the post-WWII consensus into infinity. What any futurist should be looking for is trend breaks. The adult welfare state, however modelled, is trend-broken, but it just hasn't recognised this yet. Still less has it begun a debate about what the new dispensation should look like. But UBI, with its innate nationalism, its retrospective model and its economic assininity is not that model.

[–]Yuli-Ban 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

The alternative view is that machinery will displace people, much as steam looms replaced had weavers, or railway trains drovers and carters - and we will find new things to do. That leaves a residuum of people who cannot or will not up-skill, which reduces to an issue of welfare.

"Up-skill" in the age of artificial intelligence means posthumanism, which defeats the purpose.

[–]OliverSparrow 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Defeats the purpose of what? Average OECD population IQ is 30 points higher than it was in 1930 - consequence of nutrition, education, stimulus, perhaps - and the standard deviation has widened greatly. The brighter have become proportionately brighter through their life span. That's pretty much what group systems enhancement will do . It will almost certainly not involved anything like flashing boxes screwed to your head, but deploy as intelligent information handling within teams, interpersonal coaching, exhaustive option exploration, endless situationally-aware data mining and so forth. Is the individual so framed post-human? Not genetically, but given that half the army recruits sent to the Boer war with an average age of 20 had no teeth, physically very different in phenotype. But they are that right now.

[–]dirtyword 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's weird to me that there are a few things on this sub that people have somehow decided will happen in the future ... this is one of them.

And re: changing thought model to abundance thinking: How can you do that in a world still almost completely governed by scarcity?

[–]Dhhhd 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

This guy's math is terrible. The Iraq war, which we couldn't afford and had to borrow money for, cost just under 2 trillion dollars over many years.

Because of that, he assumes we have more than $7 trillion to give out every year forever (the cost to give all adults $30k/year).

Assuming everyone still worked enough to maintain their current salary, roughly half of it would be an untaxed stipend so we'd have even less to dole out.

Even if taking money from other people to give away to others for free was morally correct, there's not enough money to do it.

[–]Mr_Locke 8ポイント9ポイント  (7子コメント)

Won't UBI just make everything increase its base price?

[–]Legless1234 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

No. Why would it?

If anything, the cost of most basic needs will fall as increased automation drives down unit costs. No need to pay so many workers if A.I and robots can do most of the grunt work. But for a company to maximise it's revenue it has to set the price at a cost the market will bear. If it tries to keep the price artificially inflated then someone (possibly someone on UBI) will step in with the same product, only cheaper, and take their market away from them.

waves to Blackberry and Nokia

[–]mediv42 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why would it? Because no one will work at McDonald's if they don't have to. McDonald's would have to increase wages or teleport into a future where you don't need workers.

If automation, today, could drive mcd's costs down, they would be doing it today.

In short, it would get more expensive to make a burger so burgers cost more.

[–]MadDogTannen 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

If anything, the cost of most basic needs will fall as increased automation drives down unit costs. No need to pay so many workers if A.I and robots can do most of the grunt work.

But we're nowhere near the point where we can eliminate the vast majority of jobs, so if we implement UBI now, we increase the demand for products (because formerly impoverished consumers now have all that sweet UBI money), and decrease the supply of labor (because many people will choose not to work for a living if given the option). This would most certainly lead to higher prices.

[–]alaskaline 7ポイント8ポイント  (7子コメント)

Let's give $30k to hundreds of thousands of alcoholics and drug addicts. I see no potential problems. Great job!

[–]Pteromys44 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

And people will start using their UBI as collateral on loans, like the payday loans we have now. Loan sharks will love UBI

[–]MadDogTannen 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Exactly. It will be a handout of government money to predatory lenders. We've already learned this lesson once with government backed student loans and for-profit schools.

[–]black_helicoptors 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

This idea is stupid. Even the most socialist western nations have not implemented this which tells you just how stupid it is. I'm all for temporary help for persons on hard times or permanent help for persons who will never be able to thrive in society but giving everybody $30k a year is a recipe for disaster.

Their examples are idiotic:

When a farmer is guaranteed a basic income to pay her bills, she might be more willing to try a new sort of crop and take the economic hit a few years

It is like they do not even know how much it costs to run a farm.

[–]humeanation 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

Is anyone well versed enough in economics to be able to say what kind of effect this would have on the economy? Positive or negative?

[–]Goblin-Dick-Smasher 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

it's impossible to even approach this realistically

If you paid every person in the US $12k per year that would cost more than the current federal budget. The US had to borrow money to cover the existing federal budget due to shortfalls.

People will try to snow you with "but savings here, and reduced military spending there, and replacing duplicate programs, etc..." but the bottom line is it doesn't matter what the hell you do you will still have to pony up over $4.5T per year. That's just paying everyone $12k per year, not the $30K per year the author of the article talks about....

[–]rilivas 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can do basic math. 30k a year for the number cited in the article as the current US population is 7.37Trillion per year. Current GDP for America is approximately 17.41 Trillion. This means on average for everyone who is actually working they will pay 58% taxes in some way or another to pay for this alone. Every other government program would go totally unfunded at this tax rate. Then you will have corporations and individuals who can earn a good income moving to a country where they dont have to pay ungodly taxes, and a flood of immigrants coming to the country to get the UBI. Pretty soon the GDP drops even more as high-end jobs disappear and the cost for UBI increases because of increased population.

[–]Mumblix_Grumph 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

So...why would anybody work a hard manual job?

[–]danzania 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think the real problem is the author is utterly unqualified to be writing on article on the subject:

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/bio/nanderson/

[–]USMCEE 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Giving someone something they didn't earn is the easiest way to ensure it will be squandered.

[–]NewEnglanda143 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

So if we have "Universal Basic Income", what makes you think that you will not have a whole class of people who will simply drop out of school and be allowed to live their entire life, making more just like them?

You are going to raise an entire sub-class that will not contribute to our society, and it will grow until they outnumber those who do contribute.

Instead of "Basic Income" I would like "Basic work for basic income". Lots of trash along highways, lots of environmental work like planting trees and cleaning out the forests that can be done, lots of simple things like working at local pet shelters that could be done.

If you actually work at another job, your participation will be minimal. If you don't work, it would be on the other side of the scale.

NO ONE should get a free ride. THAT is the mark of a advanced society.

I remember a few years back going across the Stonecutter's bridge bridge in Hong Kong. The highway was lined with rose bushes being attended by the elderly.

Everyone needs a use, everyone needs to feel useful.

[–]Yuli-Ban 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Lots of trash along highways, lots of environmental work like planting trees and cleaning out the forests that can be done, lots of simple things like working at local pet shelters that could be done.

That's the thing though; when I think of UBI, I always tie it into automation (before then, it might as well be advanced welfare). If there are simple jobs to do, droids will do them too. That's the mark of an advanced society, when all labor is automated.

[–]NewEnglanda143 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

If there are simple jobs to do, droids will do them too.

Just because a droid "Could do them", it doesn't follow that a droid "Should do them". Droids aren't yet at a point where they are picking up trash, doing widespread tree planting or caring for animals at a shelter.

It's nice that you are looking toward the future, but you cannot run a society on what will happen 30 years from now.

[–]man_the_thing_is 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

In fiscal year 2015, the federal government is projected to spend around $3.9 trillion.

Let's assume there are 150,000,000 eligible recipients. That's 4.5 trillion dollars per year, assuming $30,000 per person.

[–]abacabbmk 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This sub is full with clowns. The amount of times i see people automatically equate "rich" with "greedy", and think BI is the best thing since sliced bread, is both staggering and sad.

[–]reeeno 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

lmao @ lazy neets on /r/futurology dreaming of a day when the government will just give them free money for doing nothing

[–]bvr5 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

While it's obvious that the basic income circlejerk is strong on /r/futurology, most of the top comments are actually criticisms.

[–]blargh991188 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are too many people who are not invested in their own countries, whether due to race, religion, cynicism or greed for this to work. Instead, you could subsidize work and reward people for stuff that they actually do.

[–]throwaway_ryanbill 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just think guys! We will be able to pay back our student loans with our robot money!

[–]adventuringindreams 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like the idea of UBI, however there are some holes in its application that have to be addressed before I'm convinced of it.

Hypothesis: This 30K a year to everyone will have to come from somewhere, who's funding it? For sure you're going to have to pay more taxes. Now, how much tax are we talking about? If only half the population is working, you'd need all of them to be earning 90K a year to support this. This is because:

  • The first 30K aren't taxed.

  • You need 60K a year to support two people.

  • So 30K + 60K a year = minimum 90K, and then 100% of that earned income will have to be taxed.

For those wondering, this is a better case scenario, because we didn't count the taxes required to run society. Let's say it takes 15K in taxes per person to run society, then you'd need an average income of 120K a year for half the population, and the people earning 120K will be taxed 90K a year, so in the end they'll still just have an effective after-tax income of 30K, same as those who didn't work.

Okay, so let's discount the race to the bottom scenario, and say 80% of the population over 18 is working and paying taxes. Then, it's a bit more realistic in that the minimum income for 80% of the population would have to be 66K a year (including 30K UBI). It's a minimum, because few people would work for a salary to get it all taxed away - the extra income would only come if you're making over 81K (+15K society tax) a year.

This isn't socialism, but in application it comes pretty close, and you'd only have probably 1-5% of the population who are able to achieve additional income from working. Knowing human nature, a good portion of society wouldn't work, thus raising taxes on those who do to support them, and implement a vicious circle where people working are wondering why they're doing it, and stop working, etc.

[–]AM_Industiries 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

This has bad idea written all over it. Money does not need to be thrown around without consideration. And where would this cash come from? Just keep spending? I am opposed to the idea of a nation running a deficit. We have already broken the bank so to speak. If you want to make money, go earn it. It's not hard. And you can never fully assure the success of a program like this.

[–]Cephistry2 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The truth is they don't care if most of the country is vastly underpaid or unemployed.

[–]ninja_gold 6ポイント7ポイント  (11子コメント)

I want to hear an economist talk about UBI. What sort of economic fallout would result from it? I have a hard time imagining that if a UBI were implemented that it wouldn't rapidly cause a significant price increase for all goods and services. If everyone has 30k a year for providing no tangible, real world value, then the value of money will decrease. That's economics 101. Inflation.

As well, as was pointed out by monty845, how is this being paid for? Yes, the US spends an exorbitant amount of money on military, but even if all that money were diverted to UBI, it wouldn't cover it. Not to mention that the US government borrows and prints money to sustain itself already.

UBI would accelerate hyperinflation. Simple as that. And once hyperinflation hits, you've got more people unable to provide themselves with basic necessities. 30k would mean very little in that situation.

If the goal of UBI is to provide people with the basic necessities of living, those things should be provided directly, instead of giving people money in able to afford them in a free market. If we created a system of providing food, for example, outside of a market system, then costs would reduce drastically. Of course, now we're talking about a socialist approach, and that has its own pitfalls...

[–]Moosef 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

The thing about economies today is they assume labor is worth something and there will always be a demand for it somewhere. In the future labor will be virtually worthless because AI will do everything better, faster and with no breaks. The only valuable things on earth will be resources that the robots consume to make goods and land. Artistic endeavors will be the last labor heaven for humans until AI reaches the artistic phase.

[–]Koverp 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I rather hope there will be more economists comparing it with negative income tax. Immediately shaves off the majority of controversy from the "universal" part in UBI and allows us to focus on the technical part that deserves more attention.

[–]aldursys 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

What happens with a UBI - assuming you get past the political issue of some people working and others drinking beer for a living - is that half the automatic stabilisers are shut down.

And that means you have to move the stabilisation process to the other half - taxation.

So what happens is that people who have to work will get a smaller income for what they are doing and will pay a tax rate on that income of about 45%.

You need that level of taxation to do the same level of spending withdrawal that people coming off unemployment and getting a proper job does currently.

So you have to do the job because it is socially necessary, but you get less for doing that job (because you are receiving the basic income in addition) and you will pay tax rates of about 45% because your wage is derived from the basic income spending of other people and has to be taxed away to prevent hyperinflation.

We see from the evidence of tax credits that over time people optimise to the income they are receiving. In other words they start to work less because "it's not worth it".

The challenge is maintaining production and output. For me a better approach is a Job Guarantee with a much wider definition of a Job than present. People like to work, do things and be seen to be valuable by others. So just pay them a wage for doing that, and shout about how wonderful they are.

Once you do 'Jobs for the people' - as in fit the job to the person - then you solve the political problems, the social problems as well as the income issue.

Reciprocation matters in a social species.

[–]Kilmir 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I live in the Netherlands. We have 40% taxes already and it's fine. With brackets up to 60% and we still have people living and working here. Don't underestimate the willingness to work.

Also you are worried about production and output. Those are exactly the things technology is taking over (estimates are aeons 40% of the jobs being replaced by automation/robots in the next 10-20 years) and is prompting the call for UBI before we have to deal with 50% unemployment rays.

[–]findmydays 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

UBI is not a sign of futurology. Convincing ourselves our dollar has endless value will undoubtedly seen us into the dark ages. "The Irag Was has cost us Trillions so it isn't that there is enough money" Really?? So it's about how how money we print? Look at the what happened to our Nat'l debt and learn the consequences of debt. How can you believe China and other countries will keep making our crap if we just print money for every person to spend on it.

[–]GreatNorthernHouses 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

UBI or "Universal Basic Income"

Have looked into this theory in quite some detail before and from an objective economic and sociological point of view - have to conclude it's nothing more than a pyramid scheme

Everyone would be entitled to a living wage that somebody else has to pay for

It's the Mars One of welfare systems

[–]TLLRS 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

UBI is a dumb idea. I wish it would just die down. Ask any economist.

[–]ManonIsland 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yay....more free stuff. Now lets call it a "right" and extort the free stuff by threatening to riot.