上位 200 件のコメント表示する 500

[–]Monkespank 153ポイント154ポイント  (9子コメント)

I live in Alabama. I remember the day gm announced the pontiac firebird would be discontinued, all trailer parks lowered their rebel flags to half mast.

[–]mike413 21ポイント22ポイント  (7子コメント)

They needed room on the lines for the PT Cruiser.

[–]fromthesaveroom 36ポイント37ポイント  (5子コメント)

Some say the PT Cruiser was the best car Pontiac ever made. Not many people say that. But some do.

[–]2shotsofwhatever 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Chrysler made the PT Cruiser you jack wagons.

[–]fromthesaveroom 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's what MOST people say. Some still say it was a Pontiac. [see above]

[–]Turkey_Sammich 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Them Pontiac MOPARS tho. I've heard some people...

[–]mike413 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They talking about the javelin trans am?

[–]mike413 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't confuse things with outlandish theories and wild speculation!

Also, although the screaming chicken on the trans am just works, a little voice in the back of my head whispers "how did they come up with that across-the-hood bird design?" It's the same tiny voice in my head that whispers "scooby doo might have been created under the influence of something"

[–]SwabTheDeck 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a Chrysler, but I'll give you a little somethin' anyway.

[–]dalailamashishkabob 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This may be my favorite thing I've ever read.

[–]legrandmaster 142ポイント143ポイント  (15子コメント)

Even when they surrender, they're always white-only.

[–]Violets-Are-Blue -4ポイント-3ポイント  (3子コメント)

I want to French kiss you.

[–]Tarty_McShartFarts 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

can't get more white flag than that

[–]LaoBa 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

France: lost maybe 50% of the wars they fought.
Confederacy: lost 100% of the wars they fought, and are still bitching about it.

[–]inkomstskatt 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

France didn't lose half the wars it fought. France lost what three wars throughout its history? It probably has a higher success rate in war than just about any other nation.

[–]corby315 242ポイント243ポイント  (341子コメント)

I have never understood the sentiment behind the Confederate flag. They lost like 150 years ago and they still fly it high and proud. It's the most passive aggressive thing I've seen.

[–]macross_cannon 35ポイント36ポイント  (3子コメント)

It became a thing during the Civil Rights era. Before that, it was more of a relic. Now people think it's some old tradition.

[–]some_a_hole 42ポイント43ポイント  (0子コメント)

"A thing" the klan popularized.

[–]RedAnarchist 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the thing.

The whole symbol of heritage argument is bs since it wasn't flown after the Civil War for like 100 years.

Actually most anything you hear along these lines is just revisionist Lost Cause bullshit.

[–]24caratcake 97ポイント98ポイント  (117子コメント)

Southern folk are the proudest people I've ever known. There are times it can actually be endearing, in a way, but definitely not their love of that stupid flag.

Actually, I've seen the flag up NORTH in someone's yard. I was very tempted knock on the door and ask what side they thought Indiana was on in the war.

[–]Aardvark52 54ポイント55ポイント  (26子コメント)

My favorite is West Virginia. They are proud they are their own state away from Virginia and yet I see plenty off Confederate flags flown high.

[–]sleepingonstones 17ポイント18ポイント  (22子コメント)

I live in Minnesota and I've definitely seen one before.

[–]anderjoh1 18ポイント19ポイント  (16子コメント)

Fellow Minnesotan and Ive seen a few. There are rednecks everywhere

[–]JohnWorldStar 16ポイント17ポイント  (10子コメント)

Plenty of rednecks that wouldn't be caught with that flag. Source: I have lived in Maine, Vermont, and Oregon.

[–]fluffythepoo 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

Im canadian and had an american neighbour with one once

[–]teutonic 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm Canadian and have had Canadian neighbours with them.

[–]Marmalade6 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

I live in Oregon. Not common at all. But I have seen one or two.

[–]Nerosquito 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Plenty up here in Washington. Not so much on the west side with the city folk but there are plenty of redneck wannabees over here on the eastern side and Idaho that fly it high and proud for some reason. I'm from Florida/Alabama and just don't get it up here.

[–]DjM4ng0 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ive seen some in california

[–]Marmalade6 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That would make sense I live towards Beaverton so less flags for me.

[–]dtdtdtdt115 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've seen them in the suburbs of Portland. Utterly ridiculous.

[–]ectopunk 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Minnesotastanis are scary in groups.

[–]ProsandHans 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It seems like the cool thing to do in southern/ rural MN is to try and be redneck. I don't know what makes it so appealing. I imagine it's the freedom and beer.

[–]TodayThink 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Grew up in MN, remember kids talking about the South will rise again. We also had kids pray around the flag pole in the morning. Nut jobs...

[–]HillTopTerrace 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I lived in Washington and I saw them there. Vancouver Washington. Ok guys.

[–]doodlebug001 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've seen one in New Hampshire! Seacoast NH too, not in the middle of the mountains.

[–]John-aaa 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hell; I live in Finland and people fly them here.

[–]gafgalron 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

every one was not pro union back then, brother fought brother and all that. I don't fly that flag I don't care, but it's not like 100% of people anywhere every agree on anything.

[–]flevolandripper 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

To the rest of the world the way Americans treat their flag is to say the least weird

[–]Chiggero 20ポイント21ポイント  (6子コメント)

I saw a guy in California who had it tattooed over his entire face. We didn't even pretend to not point and laugh.

[–]MaxPaynesRxDrugPlan 49ポイント50ポイント  (4子コメント)

Ah, playing the employment game on hard mode.

[–]Predditor_drone 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Jokes on you, as long as he shows he has tried to be employed, he can collect unemployment most likely. State laws and such vary obviously, but I've known people from several states go into interviews acting like a jackass or filling out applications with really negative information to ensure they wouldn't get called back. From there it's "I tried to find a job, but no one would hire me, need and extension please" then actually finding a job for however long they need to before they can play the system again. Worthless shits, and they would brag about it too.

[–]-Badger2- 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

And all those types of people constantly bitch about how Obama's a socialist.

[–]Scraw 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Depending on the situation/setting, could be worse if he was black.

[–]rg1213 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Although tattoos don't show up as well on darker skin, so it might be an advantage...

[–]shane201 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I knew this black guy from one of my classes who would wear a hat with the confederate flag on it.

[–]nuck_forte_dame 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ahhh Indiana, the south of the North. My roommate in college at Purdue was from Tennessee and he said Indiana was more southern than Tennessee.

[–]Gotitaila 8ポイント9ポイント  (26子コメント)

You make it sound like everyone in the south has an erection for the Confederate flag.

[–]dkey1983 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I live in Mississippi. From my experience, pretty much all white people down here are ridiculously protective of that flag even if they don't necessarily wave them around.

[–]pucksdad22 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Tupelo here. I see very few of these flags and know no one who owns one. Most people I know don't care.

[–]SingularBread 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alabama here, (close to tupelo). I see more of them, but for the most part no one gives a damn. And the ones who do have it (I can't explain why) see it as "southern pride". That or a reference to the general lee.

[–]fnordit 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

You think Indiana's bad, try New York. It's not a Southern thing, it's a country thing - as best I can figure it, the Old South to them represents this time and place when things were simpler and farmers drove the economy (and politics) and were taken seriously. Never mind that economically, most of these people have more in common with the slaves than with the rich white "farmers."

[–]tughdffvdlfhegl 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you weren't one of a small number of land owners, you were probably an indentured servant and treated only a bit better than a slave. It was not a good time for most.

[–]obviouslypicard 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

I live in western Canada and there are two houses within 5 minute walk from mine that have rebel flags hanging in their yards.

[–]Spr0ckets 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

You might live near my dad.. He wast very racist but he has a history hard on for the civil war and likes to go to civil war reenactments as a confederate for the sole purpose of riling up Americans.

[–]Toyotaobsession 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

Dude I got into it with a Facebook friend who lives Oregon. They have confederate flags everywhere and she was bitching about a news story where a school made students take down the confederate flag and how unamerican it was.

The irony not lost on me I pointed out the flag was actually treasonous because it represents wanting to break up the U.S.

Then it got into some nonsense about her husands heritage even though he's never lived in Georgia. So I really got under her skin and asked her if there was anything else she paraded around after she loses too.

Doesn't help they are both very fat and actually work at being as stereotypically "Redneck" as possible.

[–]hattmall 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

I pointed out the flag was actually treasonous

I always find it odd that people bring that up, considering America is based on treason and founded by traitors less than 100 years earlier.

[–]SHOW_ME_YOUR_GOATS 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Revolution if you win treason if you dont.

[–]Yossarion 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's the only time they get so hot and bothered about "treason," as well.

[–]orbitaldan 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

Southerners want something, some heritage of which they can be proud. They're grabbing onto anything they can find, because there's precious little at all. It's hard to live in a culture where things horrible things your ancestors (or in many, if not most, cases, people who lived at the same time as your ancestors) did over a century ago, of which you had exactly zero control, are held against you as though they happened yesterday. At what point is it okay for them to start having a history again? There's basically nothing about the South's history that isn't considered prohibited to depict or mention.

I'm not pretending that none of their troubles are self-inflicted. Far from it. But it's ridiculous to act like they're beneath you in one breath, then criticize them for not acting like we're all in this together in the next. If you want them to feel like they're American instead of Confederate, then you need to start treating them like they're actually Americans instead of the backwater that people laugh at for having the audacity to be economically underdeveloped and undereducated.

I'm probably going to get downvoted for this, but south-bashing isn't going to fix anything. Can we really not come up with anything more productive to try?

[–]SHOW_ME_YOUR_GOATS 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

A culture is not a flag that you wave around. They can have a culture and a history but of all the stuff that has happened why cling to the treasonous war and slavery?

[–]iGotDatDainbramage 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dude. This is Reddit. Bashing of the American south is like a hobby around here. And from most people who've never been down here. Just know what they know from the media.

You're expecting too much from a completely biased audience that will never see the hypocrisy in their views.

[–]Yossarion 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Southerners want something, some heritage of which they can be proud. They're grabbing onto anything they can find, because there's precious little at all.

This is laughably ignorant.

Never heard of Mark Twain? Tennessee Williams? William Faulkner? Blues music? Country music? Rock music? Nashville, Atlanta, Miami, New Orleans? Yeah, nothing going on in the South. We're just twiddling our thumbs whenever we're not kidnapping tourists to sodomize.

Fuck you and your pity. Read a goddamn book.

[–]afellowinfidel 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with what you're saying about being looked down upon and made fun of, but there's a lot that southerners can be proud of without clinging on to relics that are associated with the very things that historically make them look bad, THAT'S why they're made fun of, because they won't let go, making it easy to peg those that cling to a faux martyrdom as emotionally and intellectually stunted.

The south is where manners and congeniality is famous for, where the cooking is phenomenal, where the lifestyle is easygoing, and where your individuality is celebrated. There's much more to the south than an event that happened 150 years ago, and southerner's fixation on that event is what marks them for satire.

[–]Tekless 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Indiana was split. And not north south split. It was one of the more bloody states.

[–]SkrongLikeViking 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I see it in the northwest all the time. Usually in the possession of neo-nazis and people who don't admit to being racist while routinely justifying slavery and using the n-word.

[–]caboose001 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I saw it in VA and offered the owner a free brand new updated flag had had the correct amount of Stars and Stripes on it he wasn't very happy

[–]FeculentUtopia 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Michigan here, in Metro Detroit. Those damned things are everywhere.

[–]russeljimmy 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lots of Canadians fly them too

[–]NerdENerd 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was looking for a room in the San Francisco Bay area and a guy I looked at a room in his house had one paint on his truck.

[–]SickScorpionJacket 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've seen a bunch in fucking Washington. We weren't even a fucking state during the civil war.

[–]thisbaseball1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The side that the state was on generally might not matter. A large number of colonial Americans were against revolution.

[–]orzof 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I live in Michigan and knew a guy who had a Confederate flag tinted on the back of his pickup truck. He also had a Nazi flag wrapped around his bong too. I just like to think that he sympathizes with history's biggest losers.

[–]DiscoDreamdate 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

California here. Someone has a huge one flying over their home in Central California.

[–]grubas 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

New York...which was second ONLY to some guy in Vermont. But in New York it was outside a bar, and after 2 pitchers of beer the owner said he liked that the flag represented, "freedom".

[–]VanhamCanuckspurs 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I live in a small town near Vancouver, BC and I see it more often than you'd expect. There's at least two houses in my town that have it hanging in the front window. It's so common that I didn't even realise that the flag was so offensive until a few years ago.

[–]slicwilli 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Indiana is the most southern northern state there is, if that makes sense. Anything south off Indianapolis is known as Kentuckiana.

[–]alexjsaf 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Indiana still had/has their fair share of racist idiots. Source - I'm from Indiana

[–]lemonLimeBitta 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I live in Australia and some backwards assed motherfucker had one!

[–]alaska1415 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm in Alaska and I've seen it flown on the 4th of July.

[–]Cornwall 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Texas is a proud state and it's largely the reason I moved back after some years. Not talking about confederates but just the general pride from being a Texan. For the most part it makes people nicer than other areas of the U.S.

[–]Jesse_no_i 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I went to Germany 2 years ago to meet my real father for the first time. Whilst walking through town my wife and I were befuddled when we came across a house with a confederate flag.

Edit: There was also a swastika spray painted on a wall not far from said house.

[–]Bam77 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Shit, I live in California and a lot of the guys in fraternities have them

[–]joshclay 17ポイント18ポイント  (17子コメント)

Not to say Southern folk aren't proud, they are. I would know because I'm one of them. But I think this issue is more than "a Southern thing."

I once met a diesel mechanic in northern NJ a few years ago when I was getting my truck worked on. I noticed the Confederate flag tattoo on his arm and asked him what part of the south he is from and he said "born and raised in NJ, I'm just Southern at heart." Whatever that meant, I don't know.

Confederate flags are even seen flying in parts of Canada. There's a famous YouTube channel out there of redneck Canadians and they fly confederate flags everywhere.

[–]chronicwisdom 30ポイント31ポイント  (7子コメント)

I'm Canadian and seeing confederate flags up here grinds my gears. You're in the DEEP north dude.

[–]Patrick_af_Sverige 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

Rednecks in Sweden actually have the confederate flag on their cars and jackets aswell.

[–]djs415 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

Swedish rednecks. Mind blown.

[–]FrusTrick 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Volvoraggare och gammeljänk. Volvoraggare och gammeljänk över allt.

[–]GiFTshop17 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Literally, THIS is where all the slaves were trying to get to.

[–]alt266 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm from Alabama, so I'm no stranger to seeing the flag. However I think if some "good ol' boys" saw it flying in Canada, I reckon they'd kick that guy's ass.

[–]r4ndpaulsbrilloballs 35ポイント36ポイント  (4子コメント)

Whatever that meant, I don't know.

Come on. You know what that meant.

We all know what that meant.

[–]GiFTshop17 23ポイント24ポイント  (3子コメント)

"I hate blacks, Jews, Mexicans and Chinese people!!!

[–]MonteAlban 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't worry about those flags in the south. When I see them elsewhere, there are reservations to be had.

[–]LaoBa 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Confederate flags in Europe just mean someone is into trucker/biker culture.

[–]Fapsington -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

And hating non whites

[–]LaoBa 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What country are you from?

[–]wellssh 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wonder how many years the Serbs say on their flags under Ottoman rule? And just how many years have to pass before their Kosvar cousins forget their national identity?
I wonder if the Poles just accepted defeat at the hands of Russian/Austrian/Prussian armies?

The civil war was absolutely about slavery, but there are to this day cultural and even linguistic differences between the south and the rest of the country. It is an amazing testament to American forgiveness that the whole country isn't a feuding Balkan mess.

[–]keiyakins 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's also treason. "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

[–]bagel-master 7ポイント8ポイント  (9子コメント)

I'm from PA. I've seen people with the confederate flag on their trucks or in their yards. It's quite humorous and a little bit sad. Apparently they don't know that PA was a pretty key northern state in the war.

[–]Tantric989 20ポイント21ポイント  (7子コメント)

It's fairly obvious. It's because they're racist and the flag is and has been a racist symbol for decades. I'm also in the North, I've never met somebody up here who had a confederate anything who wasn't blatantly racist.

[–]catoftrash 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's funny because I live in the south and there is a black family near our house that flies the confederate flag off their porch. It means different things to different people, for some it is a source of racism, some pride and heritage, some symbolic of standing up for power of the states over federal government. Like most things in life it's not as simple as "They're all racists."

[–]mindfu 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I personally expect them flying that flag is their way of saying "Look it's ok, we're not like those black people you're afraid of."

AKA the Clarence Thomas maneuver.

[–]ArrrGaming 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

I realize defenders/apologists will be all, "Blah blah state's right blah", but to me the war was about:

  1. You think owning other humans is OK.
  2. You think owning other humans is NOT OK.

Their flag represents #1 and that's automatically the enemy, to me.

[–]neostorm360 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Woah woah woah, youre oversimplifying it! It was about whether or not the state I live in can give me the right to own a person. Thats waaaaaaay different! /s

[–]DefinitelyTrollin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Michael Jordan wouldn't have agreed with you.

[–]aidenpryde3025 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

To understand why, you need to know two things. The US Civil War was the bloodiest war in American history. You could take all the casualties suffered by the United States, from 1865-1972 and then and only then would you equal the number of men that died during that conflict.

Combine this with the fact that the US had a population of 31 million in 1861 with the 620,000 that died (and the millions more that were maimed) and you can get a sense of the devastation.

The second, is that the South was devastated by the war. My own family lost about 20 people during the war, and those were the ones not involved in the fighting (ie civilians), an odd twist of fate is that all my relations that fought in the Army of Northern Virginia, came home unscathed.

Southern Reconstruction was terrible. The North enforced a military dictatorship, and after that, ensured that our representatives were cronies of the North for quite a while.

Those of us that have learned about how hard that period was for our ancestors find that the Northern attitude, at the time, and now, is arrogant and self serving.

The flag in South Carolina is flying over a Civil War memorial. All soldiers and civilians that died during that bloody war deserve to be honored, and remembered, because brothers and entire families fought each other, some on the same battlefield. Friends, who had served in the army led troops against each other.

Fuck the KKK for stepping on my ancestors... the men who fought and died under that flag fought for their States, as most of them did not own slaves. People nowadays don't understand that in 1861, a man's first loyalty was to his family... his second, was to his home State.

[–]apullin 1ポイント2ポイント  (9子コメント)

The concept of rebelling against a government that is not reflecting the will of the people is the very genesis of the United States.

I'm no expert on the American Civil War, but I've heard plenty said about it. I've heard that the freeing of the slaves wasn't a major basis for the secession of the south and the initiation of the war, and was an action taken later in the war to galvanize support for the Northern government.

Similarly, I've heard that the secession was primarily for economic reasons, that the South was generating huge revenues, albeit explicit on the backs of slave labor, and they were being heavily taxed without the benefit of that taxation being returned to those states.

I have also heard that Emancipation Proclamation wasn't at the forefront of the dispute, but the ideological split behind it was already well in motion and had manifested itself in various legal and economic positions against the South and their interests, and just had not reached the point of legislation when the secession happened.

So, I don't really know what people today fly it for. Of course it could simply be a veil for outright white supremacy or racism. But isn't there some credence to that concept-of-rebellion meaning of it? Oddly, reminiscent of Marxist theory about dissent being the nature of revolution and thus progress and thus liberty, even though the US is supposed to be the anti-Marxist government.

Heck, even the "Don't Tread on Me" flag is also sort of considered to be controversially anti-government and has a negative connotation, I believe.

There's probably a good book about this written by someone who has studied both law and history and treats the arguments like a legal advocate for all the interpretations and compares and contrasts them with historical sources.... but I can't read, so ... shrug.

[–]Icecube3343 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's not quite right. The south seceded immediately after Lincoln was elected as President. He wasn't even in office yet and they left (cus Buchanan didn't do anything ever) because they knew Lincoln wanted to stop the spread of slavery to the west. This meant that eventually there would be nothing they could do because the non-slave states would hold the power. Then Lincoln said that he would do anything to reserve the union, whether he freed no slaves or all of them. There were economics involved but don't get turned around, the American civil war was about slavery.

[–]apullin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, interesting. Thanks for the rundown.

Given Lincoln's optimization to maintain the Union, does that imply that the decision to free the slaves actually was made, at his level, later in the war, when people thought the North would win and/or as part of a tactic to help the north win? As in, the war begat the way the decision fell, and not vica versa?

[–]brinebold 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've heard that the secession was primarily for economic reasons, that the South was generating huge revenues, albeit explicit on the backs of slave labor, and they were being heavily taxed without the benefit of that taxation being returned to those states.

It was for economic reasons but I'd say more along the lines of the south getting outvoted on where to spend the money and what could legally be done to make the money as you pointed out later.

The North was growing cities far faster than the south was growing farms. The North was also growing economically much faster than the south so they were slowly becoming the poorer smaller part of the country and that's a position with no political power at all and the pattern was obviously not going to stop anytime soon.

[–]mindfu 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've heard that the freeing of the slaves wasn't a major basis for the secession of the south and the initiation of the war,

Well, the initiation of the war and the secession was definitely about slavery. If you look at the reasons given by the states themselves for secession, they overwhelmingly state it was specifically about slavery.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths-about-why-the-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html

Similarly, I've heard that the secession was primarily for economic reasons, that the South was generating huge revenues, albeit explicit on the backs of slave labor...

Which again makes it about slavery. Also the tariffs as an issue are shown as wrong in the above article:

Tariffs were not an issue in 1860, and Southern states said nothing about them. Why would they? Southerners had written the tariff of 1857, under which the nation was functioning. Its rates were lower than at any point since 1816.

I have also heard that Emancipation Proclamation wasn't at the forefront of the dispute, but the ideological split behind it was already well in motion and had manifested itself in various legal and economic positions against the South and their interests...

Yes, their economic interests, which were based on slavery.

So yes, I don't know why people fly it today either. Some just like Southern Rock. But for a lot of people too, it has come to represent whiteness in a way that also means anti-blackness. And a strong strain of resentment against government efforts to help African Americans.

[–]johnturkey 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can thank General Grant for that...

[–]Yuri909 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (7子コメント)

I will never understand the ignorance we perpetuate as Americans. Goddamnit it's not "the Confederate flag". It's the rectangular battle flag of the army of Tennessee.

[–]Ramman246 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

And then you got the square battle flag of The Army of Northern Virginia. But yea I get your point

[–]Amazinglagann -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not "the Confederate flag" it's worse. It's a flag that came into popularity because of KKK use.

[–]FeculentUtopia -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

They lost, then turned it around, ran the US government out of town and ruled as they liked for the next 100 years. That flag is their mark of pride and conquest.

[–]mindbodyproblem 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

"You can prevent us from keeping them as slaves but you can't stop us from treating them like shit for the next century. Well, you could but you won't, because you're not that crazy about them either."

[–]ajkkjjk52 56ポイント57ポイント  (30子コメント)

I can't imagine what people from other countries must think when they see American's flying the confederate flag. It was a movement that was not only defeated on the battlefield but excoriated by history. You don't see Nazi flags flying from government buildings in Germany.

[–]Reived 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

What does it represent? As a foreigner, when I think about the confederate flag, I think about slavery. I don't really know.

[–]CoalAndCobalt 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's the prevailing sentiment in America, too. I have no fucking idea what the people who fly it are celebrating if not slavery. Willful ignorance?

[–]Azrael11 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

They think they're celebrating states' rights, but seem to ignore the fact that the state right in question was the state's right to have slaves

[–]poops_on_midgets 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The "Confederate Flag" is actually not the original flag of the Confederate States. The commonly flown flag was the battle flag for the Army of Northern Virginia. Those who fly it say it represents southern pride, states rights, and/or liberty and freedom. They will also usually say the civil war was not over slavery but states rights and the power of the federal government.

While those were driving factors in the secession of the CSA, the main issue was definitely slavery, as the southern economy was bound to collapse if slavery was abolished (see: reconstruction)

After the defeat of the CSA, the flag went mostly unused until after WW2/civil rights era, when the KKK started using it more frequently. South Carolina actually started flying it over their Statehouse in 1964, the year the Civil Rights Act was signed into law.

Many who fly the flag probably aren't familiar with this history, and probably believe that the flag does represent southern heritage, etc. I'd say those that fly it in outright support of slavery range from a small majority, to possibly half in some very conservative areas.

Tldr: to some, southern pride, to some, slavery. Technically, slavery/white supremacy

[–]FuckThisGoing2Voat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then the victors' propaganda campaign was a success.

[–]Sattorin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those who use it don't think about slavery. The ones I know see it as a symbol of independence and freedom. Yeah, that seems ironic, but that's their view.

It's a bit like Mal's sentiment in the TV series Firefly. Mal doesn't wave the flag of his failed rebellion (that's probably illegal in the Firefly universe) but he does wear the 'brown coat' symbolizing his dream of independence.

[–]Merlin_was_cool 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

New Zealander here. I'm a bit of a history nut and love the civil war period so I have a good idea of what it means in .historical sense. However when I see it these days I just think redneck. I actually bought one from a redneck looking dude when I was there. He didn't even believe New Zealand was a country, had some of his friends come over to check out my passport and marvel... I got off track, but holy hell I love your country. Don't worry too much about what people think.

[–]Thunderous-Swami 39ポイント40ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ah, the old post-war Nazi flag.

[–]kjtaclzarj 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

Umm, Australian here. The flag is the emblem of motorcycle clubs and various redneck organizations.

[–]brinebold 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Apparently they decided Georgia wasn't southern enough. :)

[–]Perennial_ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

IIRC the state of Victoria unofficially supported the Confederates in the Civil War. Go figure.

[–]FartingSunshine 67ポイント68ポイント  (13子コメント)

It's not a symbol of racism, it's a symbol of our heritage. Assuming it is racist is just as ignorant as assuming someone who displays the nazi flag supports racism or genocide. Jesus christ, they're just proud of their early 20th century German heritage. Nothing wrong with being proud of the worst, most disgusting part of your heritage!

EDIT: The combination of racists and people who don't get sarcasm is hilarious.

[–]Sixstringkiing 43ポイント44ポイント  (6子コメント)

I dont think you realize most people downvoted you after your first sentence and moved on without reading the rest of your joke.

[–]njjc 12ポイント13ポイント  (5子コメント)

I downvoted because I found it neither clever nor funny

[–]saucysaw 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

But was it relevant?

[–]MisterPhD 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Why does that matter? He disagrees.

[–]CoalAndCobalt 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Comments are for disagreeing, votes are for contribution.

[–]FuckThisGoing2Voat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmmm. What benefit would a nation have to emphasize the worst traits of a failed uprising, ensuring that generations later it's viewed with scorn and ridicule? Surely the "facts" we're taught in school aren't skewed toward a particular agenda.

[–]athey 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

The first official flag of the confederacy was called the 'Stars and Bars' and resembled the U.S. Flag too much, so it was rather unpopular.

The second official flag included the 'Battle Flag' design we most recognize today, but it wasn't the whole flag - it was just a square in the upper left, with the rest of the flag as all white.

From Wikipedia - The flag is also known as "the Stainless Banner" and was designed by William T. Thompson, a newspaper editor and writer based in Savannah, Georgia, with assistance from William Ross Postell, a Confederate blockade runner. The nickname "stainless" referred to the pure white field which took up a large part of the flag's design, although W.T. Thompson, the flag's designer, referred to his design as "The White Man's Flag". In referring to the white field that comprised a large part of the flag's design elements, Thompson stated that its color symbolized the "supremacy of the white man"

I really don't get how anyone can claim that the confederate flag is anything but a symbol of racism.

[–]rocbolt 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

They also redesigned the flag again as in all but gale force winds it looked like a surrender flag, so they added the awkward red part

[–]chatterboxing 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

And a symbol of treason. Yet, the people who refuse to let it go insist that the love the US so much.

[–]scotty-doesnt-know 8ポイント9ポイント  (11子コメント)

Guy from Southern VA here. Even had family fight on both sides. 2 cousins fought each other at gettysburg according to my grandmother, not a reliable source. And I make a yearly trip to appomattox. Southern pride/history is a conundrum to say the least. on MLK jr day we fly confederate flags because it coincides with Lee-Jackson day, or Stonewall jackson's birthday or some shit. AND THIS IS IN APPOMATTOX WHERE THE SOUTH SURRENDERED!!!! I feel most southerners see it as "dont tread on me" flag that can be more appreciated by southerners or anyone who as to do manual labor for a living. I know of its racist meaning because my uncle was in the Klan. And while those that like/love/appreciate the flag are mostly racist there are many that just see it as a symbol of rebelling against oppression... I shit you not.... The flag has no place in todays society and if you need a symbol of rebelling against a tyrannical gov then go with the "dont tread on me" flag.

And I am very much a proud southern. And all that really means is I know what its like to, drink tea that can give you diabetuus, say god bless your heart, say Im not racist but...., work hard, play hard, I have a very nice gun collection, and the gov can go fuck the right off. except when it comes to ending slavery. go right ahead and end that shit gov.

[–]Rottimer 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

MLK jr day we fly confederate flags because it coincides with Stonewall jacksons birthday

riiiiiiight. . .

MLK jr. day doesn't land on January 21st every year. For example, this year it was January 19th. So if you think people are flying the confederate flag on MLK day because of Stonewall Jackson, who's birthday is the 21st, well. . .

[–]scotty-doesnt-know 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

we all know the reasoning, Im just giving their excuse.

[–]alhoward 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's worth noting that every southern state except for South Carolina had at least a regiment fighting for the North. So it's definitely possible.

[–]Alien51 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is a paradox.

[–]jjjaaammm 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

Shots fired.

[–]thursday_13 18ポイント19ポイント  (4子コメント)

it was at fort Sumter.

[–]JJ650 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually it was Star of the West.

[–]Aardvark52 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

And the only person who died was fighting for the South and his riffle backfired.

[–]chaynes 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

He was actually a Union soldier who was killed partway through a 100 gun salute by a misfire. His name was Daniel Hough.

[–]orzof 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can't do that again for another 5 minutes.

[–]teanw03 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm from the south and that's funny

[–]Michael_MDF 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sadly that flag cost more than half a million lives.

[–]Tarty_McShartFarts 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

to be fair to the law of the land at the time, a small portion of those lives were only worth 3/5th's of what is considered a real human's life.

[–]Aurion7 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

On the one hand, the Confederacy's moral stances were reprehensible.

On the other... well. Fuck you, you damnyankee jackass. Enjoy winters that last into May, shitty food, and being quietly terrified of your own shadow.

Oh, and the hypocrisy. Oh lord, the hypocrisy.

[–]GoonCommaThe 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol what? Have you ever been anywhere? Your idea of the rest of the United States is a bit ridiculous.

[–]FuckThisGoing2Voat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

ITT: People who have no idea what the confederacy or its flag really meant, but sure paid attention in school.

[–]leova 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

that beautiful heritage!

[–]Csantana 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I fucking love this