上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 285

[–]yoink 369ポイント370ポイント  (85子コメント)

This makes me think of my favorite quote by Isaac Asimov:

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

[–]NicholasCajun 46ポイント47ポイント  (19子コメント)

That's why I defer to the consensus in scientific fields I'm not an expert in. I don't have a Master's or Ph.D in climate science, genetic engineering and so on, so on what legitimate basis could I possibly dispute the consensus that man-made global warming is real, or that GMOs are safe? I know the scientific consensus can be wrong, but unless you're actually educated and working in the field, you're not the one who will prove them wrong. Scientific consensus isn't overturned by a guy who watches YouTube videos.

[–]Ad__Hominem 47ポイント48ポイント  (13子コメント)

I went to the University of California at Riverside for my undergrad.

While there, one of the star students in the Physics PHD program who was a fundamentalists Christian. Every single day, at least for his lunch hour (often more), he would go out to the display area and set up a booth explaining how the earth was 6,000 years old and that the bible was the irrevocable word of God in a very very literal sense.

And then he would return to his office, and continue his work on black hole research.

[–]winmanjack 16ポイント17ポイント  (10子コメント)

That seems completely incomprehensible to me, how can you hold such contradictory opinions at once without living in the world of 1984?

[–]amplitudeomega 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

Isn't it in the very definition of the word "faith" that proof is not needed? If one can believe something without needing evidence, then if it makes them feel good, they will.

[–]winmanjack 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

I suppose I never really GOT faith as a concept, so the very thought confuses me greatly.

[–]KevinMcCallister 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can think of faith as an extended version of trust. You'll hear people describe faith as 'trust without evidence' or things of the sort. This is not perfect but pretty close to the truth. An everyday approximation might be asking a stranger for a favor. In many respects, you are having to put your faith in them being honest and helpful.

The example isn't perfect because you do have evidence of how people generally act (you know most people, stranger or not, can probably be trusted in tough circumstances; i.e., you can put your faith in them in a pinch). However, you know nothing of this particular stranger at all, so in a lot of ways are trusting them with no direct evidence they deserve that trust. So not a perfect example, but it kind of helps to demonstrates the point.

If you have faith in God or any other higher power, you essentially trust them without evidence. You take it that they exist and carry things out as you believe they do. It is unprovable, but that in many ways is irrelevant to your faith in God's existence.

This again is not a perfect explanation, particularly as different people of faith do claim evidence, etc., etc., but I hope it helps clarify things a little bit.

[–]RustedWheel 2ポイント3ポイント  (6子コメント)

What is contradictory there? Genuine question because I don't know. Can a black hole not be younger than 6,000 years old? Physics I'm pretty sure can exist in a world less than 6,000 years old. Or I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be able to at least.

[–]zirconium 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

Cosmology, like almost every other field of historical science, can only make sense if you agree the world is older than 6,000 years old ( ...or created in order to look that way).

Remember that light takes time to travel across the universe. This means that the overwhelming majority of things we can see in space are only visible to us as they were more than 6,000 years ago. The simple act of a star forming requires 100,000 years or so.

The physics (and geology, and biology, and archeology, and etc) simply do not allow for there to have been less than 6,000 years.

Unless you think god is trying to trick us into believing that there have been more than just 6,000 years, which is kind of a weird thing in itself. Like, if god wanted to trick me into believing that more than 6,000 years elapsed, I guess he fooled me! (Edit: grammar)

[–]BestBootyContestPM 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's the real kicker. There are plenty of completely ridiculous ideas that cant be proven false because you can't prove a negative right? At any rate smart people are fully capable of believing dumb things.

My dad majored in biology and doesn't believe in evolution. I have to avoid those conversations.

[–]winmanjack 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What irks me is that people want to believe the universe is less grand and incredible than it is. Why would you NOT want to believe the Universe is billions of years old? It's such a humbling thought and it makes me want to stop and look up every time I think about it.

[–]winmanjack 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

I meant the fact that we know the Universe is far older than that, and him still believing the Universe AS A WHOLE is less than 6,000 years old. I just don't understand his mindset.

[–]jokersteve 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

The idea that the universe is created to look billions of years old is the only way i can imagine his mind functioning. Still astonishing.

[–]Noressa 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually, he only said the earth was 6000 years old. Not the universe. The universe can be who knows how old, but the earth itself being only just created wouldn't conflict with the universe being created. Just the world here as we know it. There can be nothing (for the earth) and 6000 years ago, God created the heavens (for earth) and the seas, land, etc. Earth was born of Gods whims, the universe already existed to hold it. (Not my beliefs, but a non-contradictory way of seeing it.)

[–]GeorgePukas 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Likewise, in grad school I knew a girl who was in a biochemistry lab and would go to conferences and tell evolutionary biologists that evolution wasn't real and their work was bunk. How does your life make sense at that point?

[–]Redplant96 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can't tell which side he was trolling for.

[–]YoohooCthulhu 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I have a Ph.D and I still defer to experts in fields more than moderately outside my own.

But I think that's part of the problem: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity." --Y.B. Yeats ("The Second Coming")

[–]base698 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I hate that they do appeals to authority. We should be focused on evidence and arguments, not consensus.

[–]NicholasCajun 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

The consensus is from people who are qualified to analyze the evidence and make appropriate arguments. Appeals to authority are not inherently fallacious. Climate scientists aren't just saying "Hey, trust me", there's plenty of published papers out there that all detail evidence and arguments for anthropogenic global warming.

Few people have the scientific background to appropriately analyze the evidence given and argue against it though. If you're also a climate scientist, sure, you have the legitimacy to argue against the consensus and science actually thrives on your input, those people act as a check to make sure the field is headed in the right direction.

If you're just a guy who watches YouTube videos on the subject, or says on every cold day "Global warming? Ha, yeah right!", then you shouldn't buck the scientific consensus.

Same goes for nuclear power (liberals - learn to love it), GMO food (liberals - learn to love it), climate change (conservatives - accept it), evolution (religious conservatives - accept it), vaccines (middle aged moms - accept them) and so on.

I don't have a degree in any of those fields. I have never conducted original research or coauthored any papers on these subjects. I have no legitimate basis from which to dispute the consensus as a result. I used to be iffy on things like GMOs and nuclear power, but that was an emotional reaction based out of disasters, and distrust and dislike for Monsanto, not a reaction based on evidence and reason.

[–]Redplant96 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Scientific consensus isn't overturned by a guy who watches YouTube videos

Damn.

[–]expendablethoughts 38ポイント39ポイント  (63子コメント)

That's the founding of democracy. The only solution to that problem is an oligarchy of the intellectuals, a caste bred to rule.

That's the big question of my life, do we want a better world or a world where we're free to become whatever we want?

[–]Voltenion 119ポイント120ポイント  (27子コメント)

It's also highly debatable if a better world would be the true outcome of an intellectually ruled world.

[–]combakovich 19ポイント20ポイント  (3子コメント)

The entire notion that it is possible to create a species-wide intellectual meritocracy ignores the fundamental game theory behind human behaviors.

There is no game you can create that tests only intellect. The members of the intellectual caste would be the smart, the lucky, and the ambitious. And when ambition and will for power become determining factors, we're right back to having politicians.

Not to mention, who's running CERN or finding disease cures if they're all busy running the government?

[–]penjsface 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Right - a randomly elected congress would solve that problem.

[–]schlach 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm ready to try citizen juries, participatory budgeting, and other engaged democracy methods that seem to be working well in other countries.

[–]Trubadidudei 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personally I think that having a mandatory "citizenship" subject in college would alleviate the problem somewhat. Make kids learn the history of every party as well as some political science, economics, and skepticism, then make them have to pass a test on said subject to be able to vote. Of course, even if the course is accessible when not enrolled into a college as well as available online (but with the test in person) there will be a bit of a class divide, but that seems like the lesser of two evils to me.

[–]phrakture 54ポイント55ポイント  (7子コメント)

You need only look at academia to see a microcosm of what this would be like.

[–]BeABetterHumanBeing 96ポイント97ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's hard to say that intellectuals rule academia.

[–]Psilodelic 36ポイント37ポイント  (1子コメント)

From my experiences with academia, the people are generally more intelligent and more informed than politicians, but they all suffer from the same human faults.

[–]Fake_William_Shatner 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

But I've found them to be more judgmental -- there tends to be "unwritten laws" or written bureaucracy, and it's a way they establish hierarchy.

Politicians can be bargained with and see reason -- and their "corruption" is more because our system forces them to lobby for money than inherent in such social creatures.

As much as I hate our current Congress, I'd still probably prefer to "hang" with them than if some Academic ruling body took over. They would give new meaning to "hubris."

[–]KTKM 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

There isn't that much potential gain for money in math, engineering, and computers in academia, on the other hand in government there is (a lot more) and there's no way to prevent the academics from becoming corrupt and advance their own agenda for profit once they can, much like current day politicians in democracies.

[–]Fake_William_Shatner 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've been at a University and seen the Academia. Yeah, they have their own language.

Every organization that can create it's own standards and bureaucracy usually becomes very catty, backstabbing and develops an institutional way of things; you are not judged by wisdom or insight, but by adhering to bureaucratic standards. The triumph of mediocrity.

"Elite Academia" tend to be more banal and empty than just having a popularity contest. At least then you can get someone who can dance.

[–]untaken-username 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Instead of having "an oligarchy of the intellectuals, a caste bred to rule," why not have the oligarchy be an intelligently programmed computer?

Not feasible today, sure, but maybe in the future.

[–]derreddit 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Knowledge and common sense is a better base than greed and power nonetheless.

A ruled world? God forbid. All under a common law? I'm out.

We all have to suffer meeting under the lowest common denominator. If anything we should scale down on the legislative to give people the chance to persue their happyness without fearing the system in which he was forced.

And mandatory school till you're 30. The amount of people that don't have the slightest knowledge(nd interest) about how and why the world works.

Oh yes, this number is to damn high!

[–]MexicanFonz 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Another 12 years may help you learn to spell happiness.

[–]Rekinom 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It would be short-lived, if anything. If there is one thing that is universally true about academics and intellectuals, it is heir inability to relate to the common person. Which makes sense -- to be an intellectual, you require time studying, researching, debating, and publishing...not necessarily experiencing the world around you.

Modern rich westernized democracies survive because their militaries and police forces truly buy into and accept democracy as a concept. Prior to democracies, this was mitigated by an aristocratic officer corps (ruling class are in charge of the military), the perception of a divine right to rule, and religious authority. That is why weak democracies without those mitigating factors are constantly dominated by military officers.

Under a de jure intellectual oligarchy, I can't imagine a situation in which the military (mostly populated by average joes, not academics) simply accepts being second fiddle when there's no reason not to just take over and restore whatever worked best before.

[–]Barboski 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Simpsons did that.

[–]clark116 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Isn't that the one where the scientists turned all the traffic lights yellow, so everyone would speed through? Traffic problems: Solved!

[–]Fake_William_Shatner 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's also highly debatable if a better world would be the true outcome of an intellectually ruled world.

It would be a Hell. 1st; What constitutes the "superior" human who's opinion is better? Is it only a grade on a test? What about judgement? I've known people to do well in school who had no sense at all. Of course, I made Deans List and I'm supposed to have a genius IQ, but you wouldn't know that by how successful I am at the moment. Would we just rank everyone by IQ?

Because as soon as you value a certain criteria, people will knock each other over to try and fulfill it. And that means lot's of cheating and in-fighting.

At the moment in America, money rules. That's a combination of factors. Someone winning the lottery is KNOWN to have been lucky, but what about someone born to wealth or the people who become CEOs of successful companies and just drive it into the ground? The CEO of GM thought he was smart and his only innovation in ten years was more cup holders for the American SUV.

The only thing that works is to value everyone equally, because the "wiser" I become in life, the more value I see in other people and the different kinds of intelligence people have. We need every kind of person, as long as they can find a niche that allows for a positive life experience. Well, not everyone. I still don't see what use there is to Donald Trump or Scott Walker. A bombastic ego and lackey who thinks he's clever.

If everyone votes and has equal power, the best way to get good outcomes is with better education and a supportive society. If you don't raise everyone up -- then the fortunate few can abuse the unfortunate. And I'm not talking about Communism, but more about egalitarianism.

If the "elite" who pass the test are allowed to rule -- you KNOW that someone is going to rig the test. And then there will be a lot of catty infighting and nobody can speak on a talk show with who is below "Opinion Level 7" or who doesn't have a British accent. ;-)

[–]jeradj 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

We already live in a world ruled by elite, even if their intelligence is questionable

[–]JustMeRC 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know it might not really make sense, but I think there's a difference between being opposed to anti-intellectualism, and being pro-intellectualism.

[–]DeleteFromUsers 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Um, that out just make sure that everyone is educated?

[–]know_worra_mean 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're thinking too narrow. There's all kinds of inbetweens we could concoct chock full of failsafes and other considerations. But people just naturally accept the way things are as permanent or can only imagine change in very extreme, almost opposite absolute terms

[–]Fake_William_Shatner 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Voltaire's Candide I suppose typifies what you are talking about; https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Candide

His quote; "This is the best of all possible worlds" is to show his ignorance, and make a back-handed compliment at the royalty (who he could not directly criticize). The world was full of unfairness, cruelty and pain, and all he knew was the system he adapted to -- so it must be the best.

Fools all over the world with their patriotism, KNOWING their team and their country can do no wrong, and oblivious to the corruption or any concept of a better way.

Yes, I can see how to make things work better for everyone. But some people are more interested in status and order -- knowing their place in the world. Kiss up and kick down. Honor the winner and piss on the loser.

The "failsafes" you mention are only as good as the people in power interpreting them. The Founding Fathers had separate but equal branches of government not because that was the most efficient, but because each group could undermine and stop the other group from becoming too powerful -- as long as the electorate stayed part of the process.

Truthfully, America has inspired the world -- but it has not for most of the time been the fairest, most law abiding or wonderful place to live. In fact; for most of our history, it sucked to be an American. Waves of immigrants either melted in the pot or scalded in the ghetto.

[–]onlyforthisair 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

a cast bred to rule.

Do you mean "caste"?

[–]expendablethoughts 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nah, like a movie casting, we would perform interviews and pilots.

Thanks for pinpointing it by the way.

[–]Vladith 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Why should "breeding" have anything to do with it? Are you a monarchist?

Historically, council-led nations don't work out very well. The word "Soviet" literally refers to a board like you describe. But when a small group rules, they find it difficult to properly understand and assuage the problems of the people.

[–]k3nd0 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Historically, council-led nations don't work out very well. The word "Soviet" literally refers to a board like you describe. But when a small group rules, they find it difficult to properly understand and assuage the problems of the people.

I don't know. It seems the fourth and fifth generations of communist leadership in China are fairly in-tune with what the people want. That's not to say that they don't suppress dissent and make unpopular decisions, but they're not completely irreverent to the will of the masses either.

[–]mellowmonk 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's the founding of democracy.

Bull fucking shit.

Democracy requires an educated, involved populace, which is precisely why the hyper-educated ruling elites promote anti-intellectualism to muddy the waters and empower the angriest and loudest of the ignorant into supporting their rich man's agenda.

[–]expendablethoughts 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Democracy means everybody has the same voice, stupid and smart.

[–]powercow 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

the only solution

well there, you just stepped in it. Sorry anyone who says there is only one solution to just about anything is wrong.

one notice the article is about america and yet a lot of democracies dont have the same problem. INTERESTING.

so i guess we are a special species of human with such unique genes that we are predisposed to this nature where other people in other countries arent?

WE can culturally push back against the anti intellectual ravings of the right. How they spit out that being educated it elitist. Where they have a high school drop out edit the world of a doctorate to tone down the warnings on AGW.. and really we got to do something about the anti science folks who keep gettign americans killed by screaming "liberals only want lead out of gas to help catalyitic converter donors.. its not bad for you".. "liberals just want to control people, cigs arent addictive and tobacco doesn't cause cancer"... "there is no way cfcs could cause the ozone hole, tis a natural thing and man doesnt have that power".. "so2 isnt a problem and cap and trade of it will destroy all of society"(if you look when we did cap and trade so2, not only was it cheaper than the most optimistic view but more effective as well)

sorry man, but their is no ONLY Solution.. we can pull back from this VERY MODERN anti intellectualism from the right, without going to a scientific oligarchy. (they werent always like this, nor as fascist, just go back to nixons day.. its the birchers and the radically religious that took over the party since then.. that is the problem.. they need anti intellectualism because neither sides ideas are supported by science)

[–]summane 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Out you could just balance democracy with academia - as in allow experts to do their job without some popularity constant interfering.

The mob shouldn't be allowed to lie to itself, but that's how democracy will work until we put things in balance.

[–]n10w4 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah, I think this is what people thought that the Bolsheviks would bring in. Not so. The question is how do you draw that line?

[–]expendablethoughts 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

...elect people to do the task? It's a never ending conundrum.

[–]straius 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

The only solution...

[–]expendablethoughts 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

That we haven't proven wrong yet. Democracy hasn't been working for the poor so far (even back in ancient Greece it didn't), monarchy and totalitarian regimes are not very good solutions, so yeah, only.

Don't get me wrong, if something way better comes up, I'll be all for it.

[–]prodigiousmuscle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then why not a socialist democracy? Certain aspects get eliminated to provide for the poor and improve life all around for everyone while we still have the ability to vote and change the system in many aspects.

It wouldn't fix all the problems, but it is a start that would correct st least some of the issues in society atm.

[–]CK_America 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Accountability of the oligarchy comes into play, those people have to be incentivized to make good decisions for the people as a whole, and for the future. Otherwise you end up... well basically with how everything is right now.

[–]gmoney8869 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's a very nice Plato reference but I don't think its true. I think its pretty clear at this point that "a caste bred to rule" doesn't accomplish anything good. I think there are other alternatives. Suppose that power over certain fields was given to the PhD's in those fields. Economics Phd's rule the Fed, Law Phd's rule the Justice Department, etc.

[–]expendablethoughts 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a technocracy, it also falls under what I was referring to and it's often used when transitionning from a military regime.

[–]JustLogginMyThoughts 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's the big question of my life

Lol. Yours, and everyone else's in our time - whether they realize it or not.

Hell, I don't know why you imply it's specific to this time - I'll bet this is something that has been grappled with more than once by past generations, and (considering the near-glacial rate political shifts occur, discounting revolution) will be grappled with for generations to come.

[–]KillaHurtZZZ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the question you should be asking yourself is "how can we create a better world in which we are free to be whatever we choose?" With one the other does not become automatically impossible

[–]DevFRus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You should really read Popper's Open Society and its Enemies to help you out of that thinking.

[–]Algernon_Asimov 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The only solution to that problem is an oligarchy of the intellectuals

That's not the only solution. Another solution would be to educate more people, to reduce ignorance.

[–]dogsdogssheep 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A country ruled by an oligarchy of intellectuals sounds like The Giver, and I can't say I think that would be a better life. Of course there may be potential for an oligarchy of intellectuals to work, but I wouldn't decree it as the ultimate fool-proof system that we need to implement ASAP.

[–]ProbablyProne 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

R/Iamverysmart is full of this.

[–]cadillaceldorado[S] 22ポイント23ポイント  (28子コメント)

Submission Statement

<A commentary by American Humanist Association former president David Niose about how America's war on intellectualism is damaging American society.>

[–]-moose- 54ポイント55ポイント  (27子コメント)

you might enjoy

TIL American schoolchildren rank 25th in math and 21st in science out of the top 30 developed countries....but ranked 1st in confidence that they outperformed everyone else.

http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/23v1hg/til_american_schoolchildren_rank_25th_in_math_a

American adults have low (and declining) reading proficiency

http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-american-adults-have-low-and-declining-reading-proficiency-20131008,0,3562742.story

Study: Westerners getting dumber by the decade

http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/watch/study-westerners-getting-dumber-by-the-decade/vi-f68ea3dd-f598-65a9-c93b-ca6c9c005fa8

So I got a glimpse of the future this morning...

http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/2tzvhv/so_i_got_a_glimpse_of_the_future_this_morning/

[–]Nixplosion 16ポイント17ポイント  (4子コメント)

I live in PA and through my work I got to see reports from various school districts on my side of the state and the report for one school district was pretty grim. Only 40% of incoming students graduate (HS), only 1% are found to be gifted, only 12-20% of students are reading-writing-and have math skills on an at-grade-level.

Also in the areas of science only 3% showed competence. This is for an entire district. Its pretty bad. That being said, this district is under investigation for a few things.

[–]ChunkyLaFunga 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

What's the qualification for gifted? If several percent of children are gifted doesn't that negate the definition?

[–]snowbirdie 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I grew up on western PA. Gifted was defined as anyone with an IQ over 130. I'd say about 10% of my class was in gifted education (which was just a study hall with occasional math competitions and extra time on the computer). Of course, IQ tests were not administered by a psychologist. So it was just based on how people did on some test in second grade.

[–]Nixplosion 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

The report didnt define what qualified as gifted. Id assume it meant something along the lines of "above average proficiency" in a given area of study

[–]BigSlowTarget 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think the first comment in your first link is telling. America is not a uniform country. I don't know if each state and city are becoming less similar or not but the level of diversity we have means you can get to almost any set of statistics about competence that you like just by picking a particular location. How much influence that group has on the others is hard to know.

I'd love to know about studies on this issue but it is almost impossible to search on.

[–]Mirisme 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which group has influence on which group in this case? And how does that differ from other countries?

[–]DetroitPirate 114ポイント115ポイント  (69子コメント)

There was a similar post like this a few months ago... someone commented how science is advancing and it is currently threatening the common propaganda narrative. And anti-intellectualism is the propagandists response. Information and science today can tell us if a new policy would be a good idea or bad idea. Which directly threatens the power held by policy makers... It makes sense that anti-intellectualism would be used to strategically counter this threat.

[–]The_Law_of_Pizza 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Information and science today can tell us if a new policy would be a good idea or bad idea.

Attorney here. My specialty is regulatory in nature, so I feel comfortable talking about "policy."

I don't mean any offense, but statements like this one you've made terrify me.

Science can tell us whether a certain policy is likely to produce a certain result. But I find that there is all too often a (predominantly liberal/progressive) tendency to translate "a certain result" into "good idea" - for the sole reason that they believe that result is a good idea. It is akin to begging the question.

You may believe that a certain result is a good idea, but science does not tell us this. You make that subjective leap on your own.

[–]dougie_g 38ポイント39ポイント  (8子コメント)

The problem with that is this nebulous group of 'propagandists'. There are undoubtedly plenty of western media pieces that have propaganda characteristics in all of the west, American Sniper being case in point. But I don't accept that there is this shadowy cabal of propagandists controlling the media. In reality, people like narratives and that includes politicians, journalists, filmmakers, etc. If they subscribe to a particular narrative of society then their media will reflect that, and further possibly influence other people to think that that. It's a vicious circle with no obvious origin.

[–]U__WOT__M8 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Have you never heard of Rupert Murdoch?

[–]dougie_g 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

...who, while a pretty vile individual, only controls a certain portion of media.

[–]Codeshark 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think we have found the reptilian mole here. Nice try, Ffffxthuop.

[–]worknman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

But I don't accept that there is this shadowy cabal of propagandists controlling the media.

What, you don't agree that there's a group of elites that frequently meet in secret and have detailed discussions about how they're going to fuck over the poor and middle class, and every form of entertainment we have is simply to distract us from the fact that we're getting screwed by the upper 1%? I'm shocked. SHOCKED!! :P

[–]gnoah0 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

[–]dougie_g 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

The CIA funding a bit of art doesn't mean that all, a majority, or even a significant proportion of media is controlled by a group of 'propagandists'...

[–]gnoah0 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What it means (with the link under it, which you may have missed) is that the US government knowingly and intentionally attempts to "manufacture consent" through the media, via funding and other methods of coercion.

This means that propoganda is not nebulous, nor is it shadowy. It's institutional and proven. Note that much of this influence goes both ways as Chomsky and Herman argue in Manufacturing Consent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent).

[–]vincentrevelations 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This kind of "propaganda" is like fashion. For designers, it's easiest and most profitable if they all follow somewhat the same ideas. They don't have meetings, they don't have to. They can just look at each other and know how to play the consumer. For politicians, journalists, filmmakers, etc, well they have learned that fear, hate and ignorance are quite powerful. It's not that complicated, the propagandists don't need to work together to keep the narrative going.

[–]Vladith 53ポイント54ポイント  (41子コメント)

How is "science" threatening the "common propaganda narrative"? Please use specific language, and not buzzwords.

[–]wiwoo 60ポイント61ポイント  (30子コメント)

The comment made sense to me- for example with climate change - there are policymakers who benefit from denying it though the science makes the issue obvious.

[–]Vladith 29ポイント30ポイント  (25子コメント)

Fair enough, but that's a single issue. The vast majority of scientific research does not deal with climate change. I don't believe at all that "the establishment" has any vested interest in suppressing public knowledge of astronomy or chemistry.

[–]Dudley_Serious 35ポイント36ポイント  (14子コメント)

Evolution, ecological impacts of drilling and fracking, and certain parties are opposed to NASA funding because it cuts into their pet projects, so yes, even astronomy. Anything that engenders interest in something they don't support threatens to take public attention away from their interests.

[–]mfter 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think astronomy is affected by the privatization of space flight and chemistry is affected by companies selling either "organic" or "gmo" foods. Anti-intellectualism is a side effect of the power struggles between corporations vying for power.

[–]ChunkyLaFunga 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, "intellectuals" have been subject to purging in totalitarian states. Even knowing that to be true and recurrent, it still sounds like something from absurdly dystopic imagination.

Obviously the United States is nowhere near that, and I don't believe for a second there is some conspiracy-level effort to keep the population malleable. But the very broadest principles can remain true. Propagandists dislike people who see through propaganda, as does anybody with something to sell, both quite true and self-evident right the way across a Western landscape. They may not want to retard scientific education, but they still need people to buy into their schtick and must bank on a lack of information or education to do so. The famous Death Panels leap to mind. There's really no method or reason to run with that sort of thing without a status quo to support it.

[–]ONymeros 8ポイント9ポイント  (5子コメント)

A small understanding of logic, geology and biochem would tell us fracking is bad respectively for the future, the planet and our bodies. They are very interested on suppressing that info and making fracking out to be patriotic. They even go against their own principles of small government to pursue the dollar, Texas state govt has recently overruled a city's ban of fracking on their land.

[–]Vladith -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

But if governments are suppressing knowledge of science, why are STEM programs being supported and encouraged with increasing frequency through government funds?

[–]ONymeros 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

the guy you originally replied to and the second explanatory post were talking about certain policymakers they weren't talking about an entrenched policy within the system of government itself, just an underlying culture within a certain sphere. so of course those programs are still being funded, but they are always on the chopping block in certain candidates' ideal worlds. so you've made an error certain policymakers doesn't equal the entire govt.

[–]gnoah0 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The government isn't even remotely supported STEM research at the level it used to. US government funded science died with the superconducting semicollider. Since then the national labs and NASA have been starved of funding (Fermilab for example is a ghost town).

Fear of China is causing a small uptick in funding but it's for things like computer security and not basic science.

[–]freezermold1 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the key distinction is between being anti-intellectual as in being against science like astronomy or chemistry, which no one thinks is the case as you said, and being anti-intellectual in the context of policy decisions not placing weight in science, as the original comment and OP have said.

[–]schlach 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the tendency of malignant rulers (and would-be rulers) is just to attack anything that threatens their power, using whatever tools are handy. I think there has long, long been a strain of anti-intellectualism in the US, and I think that, as science is essentially the practice of separating what is true from what is bullshit, it becomes important for demagogues to check the power of reason before it is a threat to their own.

[–]barelyonhere 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

They also demean it by calling it "global warming" to trivialize it with the exact people this article is referring to.

[–]muffsponge 11ポイント12ポイント  (7子コメント)

Maybe not science per se, but in areas economics, immigration, environment, drug policy, race issues, etc, the US national narrative is extremely dumbed down. Rarely do you see real intelligent discussions in either the government or big media.

[–]Dahaka97 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's pretty sad that the only intelligent discourse and honesty found in news media in the US (as far as I'm aware) is in fake news comedy shows.

edit: "in"

[–]mtwestbr 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm going to assume that in this case you disagree with national policy. So allow me to give an example and lets take the case of Reaganomics. I personally believe that Art Laffer should be the butt of many jokes and that Grover Norqvist should be tarred and feathered for how much the tax policies they pushed have expanded the national debt. I also believe that the GOP was taken over by Southern democrats who took money that democrats threw at education in the hopes of producing more democratic voters and just threw that money at the military and agriculture economies for them to pump out more republican leaning voters. In short, fiscal conservatism from the GOP is all talk. Any conservatives that would like to argue should please show up with numbers showing when a GOP led congress has actually followed through with reduced spending for any significant period of time. They have been passing the budgets under Obama that they love to blame on him. The GOP is a joke to me.

That said, would you now believe that I might just agree with your views on how poorly the US economy is being managed. However, here is the rub. I, like you, do not have a crystal ball nor would I deign to be arrogant enough to claim that I understand all the unintended long term consequences of the GOP policies or the counter proposals pushed by the democrats. In fact, I lived long enough to see how many of their policies do in fact have long term detrimental effects to the cost of things. Housing, education, and health subsidies have in fact contributed to where Americans pay much, much more for all three of these things than most of the countries we compete against putting me as an American at a structural disadvantage as part of the labor class. So if you can see by this point, the only thing about economics I do know is in fact how much I don't know and how much I do understand that most people that say they do really don't either. Same could be said for many sciences since most science at some point ties back to axioms that may or may nor fall apart at some point. As a systems engineer it is part of my job to simplify models so I definitely understand quite a bit about how reality has a lot of details that are hard to model and that can burn you when conditions outside your model don't behave.

So in some regards my point here is you have to dumb things down at a certain level just to get over the fact that even most experts are pretty dumb about the subjects they cover. I laugh at these Wall St Jr analysts on Reddit that talk about how they know more about the economy than Warren but the sad reality is if they knew so much, why did Wall St nearly crash the economy if they were so smart? Was it just malicious and by design in order to correct the models so they could extract more? Or are they just full of shit and pushing an agenda? Or is Elizabeth Warren just pushing an agenda of another class of people that really don't understand that those Jr analysts are more correct then she is but imperfect because no one in Hari Seldon and can predict the future with any accuracy. The bottom line is the greatest strength humans have is how damn adaptable we are to the circumstances that change around us. That is were policies that look good often crash and burn within a generation and smart monkeys figure out how to game that system just as some did under the welfare state of the democrats and others are under the warfare state of the republicans now.

tl;dr; Anyone that says they are an expert in anything in reality just knows a little more than the rest of us about things no one can truly fully understand. Sure there is a lot of BS out there, but being dismissive out of hand is exactly the same tactics of the people you are demonizing and adds about the same piddly squat to the conversation that their propaganda is. Real debate is pretty hard my friend.

[–]latefordinner 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's also science supporting the idea that abstinence based sex education leads to poorer outcomes. Drug testing welfare recipients would cost more than it saved. Supply side economics.

Not all science is hard science (that's what most other responses mentioned, so I just wanted to give another view) and there are a bunch of ideas based on our common propaganda narrative, as it were, that are threatened by scientific inquiry.

[–]tesserakt 19ポイント20ポイント  (15子コメント)

I think people just don't trust academics like they used to. Can't really blame them after all the times where a study's results have been engineered to fit the buyers narrative.

[–]Raudskeggr 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Academia... Has its own brand of anti-intellectualism. The authors of this article assume everyone will fall in line with what they think is right according to their political alignment, if they could only become educated. This simply isn't the case. They're confusing ideological indoctrination with intellectualism.

[–]OohLongJohnson 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

Those studies aren't usually done by true academics though, those are studies performed by the government or by corporations to show a specific, intended result.

[–]deadlast 12ポイント13ポイント  (11子コメント)

Corporations and governments fund virtually all scientific research performed by academics.

[–]OohLongJohnson 19ポイント20ポイント  (7子コメント)

That's disingenuous. A lot of good research comes out of governmental facilities like the NIH and from studies at Universities. These are different then the DEA and other government studies with less integrity.

[–]deadlast 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

Corporations and governments fund "good research." They can also fund bad research. The tobacco industry's campaign denying the health risks of cigarette smoking was supported by Harvard research they funded.

[–]OohLongJohnson 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Source? Harvard was the first institution to demonstrate proof that cigarette smoking was significantly harmful to health. They established (I believe the first) global tobacco research institute as well.

Pharmaceutical research has also been made slightly more transparent since Obama passed regulations requiring all research with government funds to be publicly available.

But I agree with your point. My original point was simply that academics can do quality research even if it's funded by gov/corporate but that there is also a lot of bad research out there pumped out for a specific purpose.

[–]deadlast 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just an example

This guy didn't think of himself as part of an industry effort to distort the science--but he was.

[–]OohLongJohnson 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absolutely. Research that was not shared with the outside community. Research was not shared with the very investigators that they funded.

Interesting case, thanks for sharing. That's very similar to whats been going on in pharmaceuticals over the past couple decades - hiding internal research, selectively releasing studies etc... There are now some regulations in place (like the federal pharma ones I mentioned before) requiring research to be public if publicly funded.

This particular case is pretty unique, he was in a lengthy relationship with a CEO of one of the tobacco companies and a company legally "claimed proprietary rights to my mind, my opinions and everything back to 1972.". I have a feeling this isn't the whole story.

Furthermore, as far as Harvard goes, the school has done far more good then bad when it comes to studying the harmful effects of cigarettes. The Institute for the Study of Smoking Behavior and Policy was very successful in spreading the benefits of smoking cessation and Harvard currently runs the Harvard Global Center for Tobacco control. I don't think its fair to judge them on this one case.

[–]klabboy 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The problem is how do you differentiate between this organizations right? It's only relatively recently that we learned DEA was wrong about the whole weed thing. If you call into question one organization's branch it calls into question all of them. At least a little.

[–]OohLongJohnson 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

It does, which is a valid point. But what you have to look at is who is actually allocating the funds. The NIH has MDs in most of these positions with significant research backgrounds, the DEA had Michelle Leonhart.

Is government money going into a department or to a specific study? Into a school or to a specific professor. Is government money going to NIH for new drug research for a disease or to Pfizer for clinical trials of a promising drug? Things like that make a lot of difference in terms of research autonomy. My original post was unclear, didn't mean to make it seem like all government funded research is poor quality because that's simply not true.

[–]Dahaka97 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's only relatively recently that we learned DEA was wrong about the whole weed thing

I'm out of the loop on this one, could you elaborate on this for me, please?

[–]Vladith 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's completely untrue, except for energy research. Do you really think corporations and governments are the primary funders of cellular biology and environmental science, for instance?

[–]deadlast 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Uh, what? Who do you think is funding cellular biology and environmental science?

[–]Vladith 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Universities, primarily. And the most active research universities aren't beholden to governments or corporations.

[–]JustMeRC 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think the problem is in being too skeptical of academics. I think the problem is not being skeptical enough of the academics whose opinions comport with one's own viewpoint.

We're not teaching our children to be critical thinking citizens anymore. We're trying to build them into job filling cogs for the purpose of fitting into the established economical structure.

What we need are more people who question everything, and know how to discern quality information from junk and marketing and propaganda.

My favorite book that talks about how to learn this type of critical thinking is called Teaching as a Subversive Activity. Though it was written in the context of the late 1960's, it still has a lot of relevance in today's world.

[–]Radico87 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It’s a natural reaction and means to an end for leadership to maintain a status quo. Goering described it best in the context of warfare: tell the common people they’re being attacked and they’ll follow. Because that’s what they’re good for and why they’re the common people.

[–]Hermel 42ポイント43ポイント  (13子コメント)

There is a core of truth in anti-intellectualism: increasingly, the main purpose of a university degree lies signalling competence, and not in the acquired knowledge itself. Economically, this is not an efficient situation. The country would be better off if people focused on acquiring knowledge that's actually useful instead of spending tens of thousands on an Ivy league education for the purpose of networking and having a nice item on the CV. In that regard, the German model of education with its practically oriented apprenticeships is much better.

[–]machinesNpbr 42ポイント43ポイント  (11子コメント)

The German model is better on almost every level.

  • Higher education is free or near free no matter what you're studying, so nobody graduates with massive debt loads.
  • They have trade schools that are very closely coordinated with industry representatives. This way, not only do people who are not bookworms still have an opportunity to acquire skills, those skills are actually relevant to industry. Compare to America, where trade schools are on the decline, and the ones that do exist often are training people in skills that are irrelevant.
  • Germany spends way more on it's educational systems in general, so they still have way more "intellectuals" being trained in the humanities who have an actual realistic prospect of getting a research position at a university, as opposed to America where we give out humanities degrees while universities are slashing employment.

It's alot easier to be pro-intellectual when your system is set up to support intellectualism and non-intellectuals equally. Except this is America, and we don't support anybody except bankers.

[–]ColourlessGreenIdeas 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with everthing except #3. In Germany, there are hardly any academic positions with a permanent contract other than tenure. Also, you only get a maximum of six post-doc years. That in combination renders the pursuing of an academic career in the humanities a lottery.

[–]Moocat87 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Except this is America, and we don't support anybody except bankers.

Initially, I saw a flaw in this point... but you're right. We only support those tech startups so strongly and blindly because they're lucrative for the bankers...

[–]gybryant 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Germany spends way more on it's educational systems in general

Way more than whom? The United States? I can't seem to find anything that support assertion. All I can seem to find is this refutation.

Likewise, I'm not seeing anything to suggest that America is "where we give out humanities degrees while universities are slashing employment. There's just this that suggests the opposite.

Can you help me out?

[–]fathan 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

Higher education is not free, it is paid for by the state. The distinction matters. People should not be misled into thinking that public goods come without cost, or they are too easily swayed into demanding more of it than serves it's useful public purpose.

[–]RichardRogers 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

Nobody who advocates for education being free to students actually believes there is no cost on the back end. That's a ridiculous strawman, everyone who wants free education understands that society will bear the costs through higher taxes.

[–]machinesNpbr 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hell, I'd even say the higher taxes argument is a strawman when you look at our current expenditure structures.

We could easily massively increase our education spending by cutting a fraction of the resources we dump into the military, police, prisons, agribusiness subsidies, or petroleum and coal subsidies. Or closing some of the huge tax loopholes in financial services sectors.

The notion that we have no money to spend on education, when we throw so much away on constructs of dubious social value, is disingenuous.

[–]fathan 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think that how we frame the debate matters, and there's a big difference between "tuition should be free" and "the taxpayer should pay for tuition". The former is frequently argued for, and it excludes the costs of the policy in the language and sidelines them in the political discourse.

(FWIW, I support subsidized tuition, although I would advocate changing how we fund higher education.)

[–]RichardRogers 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I see where you're coming from. I think "tuition should be free" rhetoric isn't meant to hide the costs but to counter the extremely popular notion that nobody should get anything without paying, even if it would have massive long-term social benefits.

[–]Ran4 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

With that line of reasoning, nothing is free and the word becomes useless.

This is /r/truereddit, not /r/libertariancirclejerk

Higher education in Germany (as well as many other European countries) is free or near-free (as in, very heavily subsidized).

[–]fathan 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

This has nothing to do with libertarianism, it's simple economics. (I am not a libertarian.) The point is to make the most of public resources, and that requires that people do the cost-benefit analysis. And to do that, they need to understand the costs. I am all for public funding of public goods, but people should have a clear understanding of their costs.

This is exactly the same problem with carbon pollution and climate change: polluters think carbon is 'free' but that's only because the price (zero) does not reflect the cost (~$40 / ton, depending who you ask). This is not a libertarian position.

With that line of reasoning, nothing is free and the word becomes useless.

This isn't true. Non-scarce goods have no cost and are truly free. (Air to breathe is a typical example.) Education is fucking expensive, though, and people should understand that.

[–]instadit 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

you can't copy-paste educational systems and expect them to work. americans and germans have very different cultures.

I could be mistaken since my only connection to germany is my mother who spent ~5 years studying there, but germany had more higher ed citizens than the market demanded, which caused many people (whose education was paid by the german government) to leave germany or stay unemployed and live off welfare.

[–]Metaphoricalsimile 108ポイント109ポイント  (17子コメント)

This is not a good article. It buys into reddit's collective bias of being more "intellectual" than the mainstream, and is really just a sensationalist opinion piece trying to link an oft-parroted theme with a recent tragedy. Psychologytoday is a trash mag and this article isn't anything that breaks from that mold. I'm sure it's going to be upvoted very high based on the title alone.

[–]wfunction 37ポイント38ポイント  (0子コメント)

People today aren't any more "anti-intellectual" than they ever were. The problem today is "information overload" and/or people being stuck in positive feedback loops where they only hear information that confirms their biases and validates their particular worldview.

The above is a great example of this.

[–]Carol_White 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

Everyone with an axe to grind, over the next few days, is going to try to use the Charleston shooting to further their cause. "Why did this tragedy happen?" There will be 300 attempts to answer this question. This happened at Columbine, it happened at 9-11, and it'll happen here. This Psychology Today article is just a guy trying to push his latest book by capitalizing on this event.

[–]scstraus 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Despite coming in agreeing with the premise of the article, I agree with your assessment. This article would have been a lot more worthwhile if it has made any attempt to find hard links between anti intellectualism and the (valid) problems it outlined. But it completely failed to even attempt that and hence just sounds like some guy's unfounded rant.

[–]za3keaxi 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

The author just published an entire book to back up the topic. This is essentially a brief summary of his work, boiled into an article. You may disagree with him, but it isn't just a haphazard opinion piece conjured out of thin air.

And by the way, the book sounds brilliant... but only if you're an atheist.

[–]Numendil 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which means that this piece is about his book, and not the Charleston shooting. He might frame it in that light, but it's clearly written to promote an existing opinion, not to analyse the event

[–]mystyc 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It really is a poorly written article, and it makes little effort in trying to prove its central assertion that anti-intellectualism is the source of most of our problems.
Basically, the author spends much of the article alternating between descriptions of bad events and assertions that these problems are demonstrations of anti-intellectualism, as though the obvious absurdity of public discourse is blatantly self-evident.

To be clear, I am not actually denying that anti-intellectualism is a problem, rather I am warning readers that if they're seeking a greater understand of the root causes, consequences, and methods of anti-intellectualism, then they would be better served by looking elsewhere.

There are plenty of real statistics and research results that the author could've cited to support his thesis, but instead of data he gives a summary of his opinions on various current events. Perhaps the true worth of this article is in its ironic demonstration of intellectual laziness.

[–]Metaphoricalsimile 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep. It also has a title that a lot of people can agree with without having to put too much thought into it, so see you on the front page.

[–]DirtyBojanglez 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anti-intellectuallism has absolutely nothing to do with the terrorist attack in Charleston. America has terrorized black communities for centuries. His attack wasn't unprecedented, it was par for the course. John Stewart brought to attention the Confederate road names and flag being flown...in 2015. The evidence is clear that America is and has been racist since it's inception. Mr. Roof echoes the truest of American sentiments and covering this country's atrocities against black people as "Anti-intellectuallism" is disingenuous and disregards the fact that this country was founded upon racism and that's why it thrives today.

[–]thehollowman84 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. Note that this guy already wrote a book about America and the attack on reason? And he's selling it at the end of the article. Weird that this event that happened was caused by the thing he's selling information about.

[–]TheSouperNazi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And we're all well aware of how intellectual Reddit is.

/s

[–]AtomicGarden 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This article is garbage. But I would say that reddit is very anti-intellectual when it comes to social sciences. Hell "liberal sociology professors" is a boogy man here.

[–]TWALL9 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I felt that it only hit on tried and true topics that make the reader feel morally superior for having a modicum of common sense, like climate change. It doesn't state anything about how anti-intellectualism even pervades many places of higher learning through the commercialization of education and for-profit post-secondary education centres.

I don't see how this can relate to Dylann Roof as much as the author thinks it does. Yes, he was massively racist, and yes it plays into cultural undertones of American racism, however I wouldn't say that is the root of anti-intellectualism. I'd firmly state that is due to the notion of hyper-patriotism, which the author noted as a side effect of anti-intellectualism. I'd say that it is one of the major causes.

[–]bapzannigan 39ポイント40ポイント  (8子コメント)

There is absolutely a strain of anti-intellectualism in America (particularly the South and Midwest), but I think the problem is a lot thornier than this article would indicate. Specifically the article conflates anti-intellectualism and science denial with a loss of critical thinking. I think this is somewhat dishonest. Most of the people who believe climate change is a serious issue do not have the knowledge, training, or time to seriously investigate the empirical evidence. They know that 97% of scientists believe man-made climate change is a fact and accept it. Is this really critical thinking? Is the marketing executive at a coctail party sermonizing about the ignorant hicks who won't 'accept' climate change as a fact really thinking any more critically than the denialist? I would say no, but they happen to have selected more credible authorities to trust.

The unfortunate reality is that in most instances critical thinking or "thinking for yourself" is actually a serious flaw. The world is incredibly complicated and it requires serious education and training to understand even a part of it. Nobel prize winning economists probably have very little to contribute on the topic of whether or not hydrocarbons are causing a greenhouse effect or how much of the effect is manmade. Psychologists might be able to think critically about public policy, but are unlikely to understand the nuances of foreign military endeavors. In the end everyone is stuck in a situation of having significantly less information and training than necessary to think for themselves about most issues without looking like an idiot.

In fact most of what gets branded as "anti-intellectualism" is a result of people thinking for themselves. The snowball stunt was an attempt at an empirical refutation of global warming. Admittedly it was a pathetically weak one, but the point is that to actually understand the science would take a lifetime. Either we think for ourselves all the time and get ridiculous answers often, or we accept science on trust. I favor the latter option, but it does not really jive with the ideal of "critical thinking" and "intellectualism."

[–]NotUnusualYet 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

Critical thinking includes knowing when you lack sufficient understanding and figuring out who to trust for information and analysis when you need it. Deciding to trust climate scientists over politicians, businesses, and bloggers when it comes to climate change is an example of good critical thinking.

[–]IAMASquatch 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this is true, as well. I am a teacher and I try to teach critical thinking. One thing I point out is that you should learn to decide who to trust so you don't have to do all the thinking on your own. I don't go research every diagnosis my doctor gives me. I don't fact check my lawyer's advice. I check initially to see if they are smart people with track records for good work. Then, I decide to trust them or not. Also, I'm not educated in medicine or law so, it doesn't make sense for me not to believe them.

[–]runningraleigh 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're saying that critical thinking is the same thing as thinking for yourself. That's not entirely true. Critical thinking is the ability to understand the situation you're in and choose the best solution given an array of options. In complex situations such as you're describing where no single individual can be expected to deduce a solution on their own, I believe that part of critical thinking is understanding which sources to trust for what problems.

The primary breakdown I see here is that many Americans are unable to appropriately differentiate their sources of solutions. This isn't unexpected because the amount of information an average person is expected to know has grown exponentially in the last 50 years. Being now aware of so many problems in the world, we are at a loss as to where to look for solutions. So we go to those we already trust: our pastors, our leaders, the talking heads on TV. And then you get into issues with the argument from authority:

A is an authority on a particular topic
A says something about that topic
A is probably correct

We have competing "experts" and the inability to select between them is evidence of the lack of critical thinking that the author is talking about, much less the problem of not trying to discern whether or not the expert is telling the truth.

[–]autowikibot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Argument from authority:


Argument from authority, also authoritative argument and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy when used in argumentative reasoning.

In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism. The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:

A is an authority on a particular topic


Relevant: Ethicist | Courtier's Reply | Argumentum ad crumenam | Ipse dixit

Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Call Me

[–]dogGirl666 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

anti-intellectualism

Another take on this would be that there is a tide of anti-science and anti-highly-educated-experts. These people used[?] to be called intellectuals and used to be more respected, the anti-authoritarianism is understandable due to how experts have seemingly all screwed them over in the past. A perfect example of this is the anti-vaccine movement; they don't trust the government nor do they trust vaccine researchers and other relevant experts.

At the very least if kids had a very basic understanding of what science is and is not, once they finished school, it would be much less accepting on trust and more of a slight understanding. The same goes for philosophy.

[–]YuriJackoffski 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Human brains have sensations of being certain. This is good enough for basic survival in both modern and primitive societies but not so when trying to understand complex systems. There are other features of our brains that cause problems which I won't get into here. I only want to say that science and philosophy have allowed us to know this and many other facts about the Universe. It isn't perfect since it is performed by human brains but it is still the best we've got. I think people need to understand math, philosophy, and science on at least a college undergraduate level and learn some humility about how ignorant they are about many things. I've said for at least a decade that I am one of the dumbest mofos around but thanks to college I got to experience how science is done (in an academic setting) and how math makes science work and elegant. In daily life I can philosophize with the help of that academic experience.

[–]JustMeRC 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is interesting, because as a society (in the U.S, anyway,) we tend to celebrate certainty. Uncertain people are often seen as meek or wishy washy. I used to get down on myself, because I can often see validity in multiple points of view on the same subject. I tend to take time to consider things, rather than feel certain about something right away. Now I see it as an asset, though it can make one feel like they are living in a very dysfunctional world.

[–]virnovus 25ポイント26ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is pretty ironic, considering Psychology Today is basically Cosmo for women who like to think they're too sophisticated to read Cosmo. A former roommate kept copies in the bathroom, which I read a few times, and they're trash.

That being said, I don't agree with the article's premise. Stupidity, insanity, and anti-intellectualism are separate things, and you can't just lump them all together.

[–]IBFT 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's like the National Enquirer running a story with the headline "Investigative Journalism is Dead"

[–]gospelwut 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Keep in mind David Niose is the author, not an academic whatsoever. In fact, he's part of some Washington Think Tanks. (Yes, yes, go ahead and cite some fallacies.)

[–]phrakture 9ポイント10ポイント  (9子コメント)

Anti-intellectualism has been killing society since Plato's time. It's not really a new problem, and hasn't been our downfall yet.

[–]RSGoodfellow 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think the point is it has a slow burn.

[–]Vladith 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you truly think that society is becoming progressively less intellectual?

In the 1960s, a minority of Americans had been to college. In 1860, a minority of Americans had spent twelve years in school.

And in Plato's time, the vast, vast, vast majority of people couldn't even read.

[–]dogGirl666 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

So, no society ever has gone down[failed state?] due to one type or another of anti-intellectualism? Or are you saying that "society" is all of the world's societies/civilizations? Or do you mean humans as a species?

[–]ronaldinjo 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Why are people comparing today with Plato's time? There are so many differences. Also the ancient Greece civilization isn't anymore "the peak of human civilization".

[–]phrakture 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm just trying to highlight that people have been decrying anti-intellectualism as long as there has been intellectualism.

[–]mpqx 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the point is that anti-intellectualism has always been a non-trivial force, but society generally rebounds. Take for example the amount of knowledge acquired at the library of Alexandria. Much of what was lost when the mob burned it down had to be re-learned over centuries. Eratosthenes not only knew the earth was round long before Christopher Columbus, but its circumference as well.

The same is true of Rome when Rome collapsed due to an unsustainable economy based on expansion through war. It wasn't long after it transitioned from a Republic to an Empire that it collapsed (roughly 300 years). Ultimately, society rebounded though, and we enjoyed an age of enlightenment nearly 1000 years later.

[–]Ut_Prosim 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Two young intellectuals met up in the early afternoon. The first complained that he had been waiting patiently by the front gate of his estate all morning. He was drenched in sweat, cooked by the Athenian heat, and quite upset. The friend asked for an explanation and the first pointed to the slight peach fuzz on his upper lip and proudly said: "My maid noticed my mustache this morning, and said that manhood would be in any day now, so I've been waiting for its delivery". His friend, an even more esteemed intellectual and graduate of the Platonic Academy thought for a second and said "you idiot... what if they delivered it to the rear servants entrance?"

Intellectuals are the butts of some of the oldest jokes in the world, anti-intellectuals is nothing new.

[–]adamwho 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is this related by a report from the American Enterprise Institute? They were saying the something similar, only their idea of "anti-intellectualism" was people not remember lists of facts and not reading their Bible.

I think the problem is that knowledge is cheap because anything can be easily looked up. It is critical thinking that has become more important than facts for the average person.

It is the older generation that has worked hard to learn facts that is worried about this trend. And it will be a worrying trend if the internet stopped working.

[–]AnthropomorphicDream 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

You didn't actually read the article, did you? Right or wrong, lack of critical thinking is exactly what the article is referencing.

[–]adamwho -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am on a different issue.

Ironically the AEI had loads of data showing that critical thinking was increasing but that they were bemoaning people not memorizing facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SlHH37SfyM

[–]hoyfkd 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's nice to know that anyone can find a way to make their pet hatred responsible for just about any tragedy.

It's time America wakes up and realizes skinny jeans are killing America - literally. They are Hitler.

[–]szhamilton 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

For an article that points to "not connecting the dots" as both evidence proving and a consequence of America's anti-intellectualism, it sure doesn't do much to connect the dots between America's culture of anti-intellectualism and its culture of racism or gun violence.

I'm torn because I believe the article's conclusion: "Many will correctly blame Roof's actions on America's culture of racism and gun violence, but it's time to realize that such phenomena are directly tied to the nation's culture of ignorance." But if there is a direct tie between these cultures, the article doesn't do a good job at highlighting it, let alone exploring it.

As such, the article reads like an exhortation without much oomph. In a sense, it's a sermon for folks who fancy themselves anti-anti-intellectualism.

The article is decidedly not, however, what it seems to want its readers to be: intellectual and deeply committed to rational analysis.

[–]CanadianHoser 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

Everyone should read "Anti-Intellectualism In American Life" by Richard Hofstadter. Anti-intellectualism has a long history in America, with references to The Great Awakening and Jacksonian policies.

[–]SWaspMale 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]SWaspMale 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This one is a bit localized to Montana (examples, comparisons), which may be more conservative.

[–]TerrenceChill 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is anyone surprised by this? Everyday you see bigots on reddit raving against everything that's even remotely rational. And that's just a small mirror of the real world.

[–]powercow 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just say what it is.. the right wing is radicalizing.. mainly as a means of staying alive as some of their ideas fall out of favor.

its the same reason they went after the bigot vote in the first place. Progressives are populous, its why they dont have to play these games. Where the right has to win votes.

[–]DomesticApe 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sort of dismayed that anyone here would think that's this article is suitable material for this sub. For a website called 'Psychology Today' this article was seriously lacking in sort of empirical evidence. Actually, it's lacking any sort of cogent argument what-so-ever and simply recites tired old cliches like, "But isn’t ignorance at the root of racism?" while making bold unsubstantiated assertions such as "But critically thinking individuals recognize racism as wrong and undesirable . . .".

[–]_TB__ 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

hyperbole is killing /r/truereddit

[–]HexenHase 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Any country that makes you pay through the nose for an education is not hot on any form of intellectualism, I think.

Just seems to me that if you want an educated population, you put education at the disposal of all, and not just the few who can afford it.

[–]Vladith 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is sensationalist doomsaying without any substance. It only has upvotes because Reddit agrees with the headline.

[–]YuriJackoffski 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

But this is TrueReddit bro, we're better than that!

[–]ATerranosaur 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought this was going to be about how so many people like to make fun of others for being smart and knowing things. It's actually pathetic.

[–]_chinchillin 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A response to this submission entitled No,Self-Centeredness is Killing America was posted not long after it. A concise rebuttal worth reading.

[–]all2humanuk 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting but is there any evidence that until recent history that the population as a whole has ever been inclined to critical thinking? I'm not trying to sound pompous but I'd have thought most people were too busy just getting on with their lives and surviving to dedicate their time to intellectualism.

[–]Hypna 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This reads like an individual with a quest against anti-intellectualism trying to hitch his cause onto the latest tragedy. Let's consider some current and historical examples.

Is Israel a poorly educated, anti-intellectual nation? Do they have a problem with racism?

Was apartheid South Africa a poorly educated, anti-intellectual nation? Did they have a problem with racism?

Was Nazi Germany a poorly educated, anti-intellectual nation? Did they have a problem with racism?

If the author wants me to believe there is a relation between anti-intellectualism and racism he's going to need to provide some data, because just off the top of my head I had no trouble finding counter-examples.

[–]Firsmith 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

get yer circlejerk on everybody.

[–]Stoodius 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

This article is all over the place and is in many respects anti-intellectual. Equating knowing the VP's name to critical thinking? Dumb. Treating gun control as a problem with an obvious solution? Dumber.

[–]leroddotfaise 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Isn't there some obvious conflict of interest in intellectuals saying anti-intellectualism is bad?

[–]GoodAndBluts 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Would be curious in seeing a venn diagram showinf the people who upvoted this article, yet also urged other some other redditor to take up a trade instead of persuing a college educatoin

[–]armistice90 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ok, great. We've identified what might be the problem. Now, how about a solution? What can we do to change this?

[–]b_art 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

TIL psychology today can take opportunity in a massacre.

I don't care if the article is wrong or right. I call "bad timing". Or at the least "greedy timing".