全 98 件のコメント

[–]bloodguard 107ポイント108ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's probably the kindest "you suck, so we're breaking up" letter I've ever read. Good on Digital Ocean for stepping up and cutting them a good deal.

[–]Anonymo -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

"You suck, unless you donate $10 to us"

[–]Chevex 22ポイント23ポイント  (8子コメント)

We maybe could have given them some money out of the kindness of our hearts, but there really are a TON of things they could have tried before stooping so low. Wikipedia knows how to get their shit together. They put a sizable but not annoying banner on every single page asking for a small donation to help keep the lights on. How hard would that have been? How many of us would have donated to keep SF pure? I give a few bucks every time Wikipedia asks because I'd much rather do that than not have Wikipedia, or have a Wikipedia filled with ads and malware.

[–]wub_wub 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

How many of us would have donated to keep SF pure?

Not a lot? Wikipedia has billions of unique visitors per year and a very small minority donates. Only about 2.5m donated something in 2013-2014, and they have as I said billions of page views. I'm pretty sure that SF doesn't get as close as much traffic, and the costs of operating it are much higher too.

[–]Chevex 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

So they wouldn't just ask for a couple bucks?

You guys need to use your imagination. You miss the point. Are you really arguing that SF had no choice but to do what they are doing now? The fact that we have other options like Github and Bitbucket and they aren't malware infested pieces of shit, proves that it's possible to not do this.

They could have offered improved enterprise offerings. They could have asked for more of a donation and made it clear that they were in danger of becoming dickheads. They could have begun a crowd sourcing campaign. They could do it Ubuntu style and take people to a donate page before each download but give them the option to donate zero dollars.

I wasn't intending to act like I had the holy grail of a solution. It was a single example of how another site manages to be creative and not immediately become the shit show that SF is now.

[–]vexii 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

They put a sizable but not annoying

are we using the same Wiki?

[–]jarfil 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is it hard to close? Does it open in a new window? Does it obstruct the content of the page? Does it play loud sounds, or any sounds at all? Does it blink, simulate normal page elements, or anything like that?

So maybe if you're used to browsing with no ads at all, any kind of ad-like banner may seem annoying. Otherwise, I don't see how.

[–]vexii -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Does it obstruct the content of the page

yep, might be me thats color blind but i also find bright yellow kind of annoying
what you are describing is not "annoying" things but straight up horrible things

[–]tequila13 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

We maybe could have given them some money out of the kindness of our hearts

You're too romantic. We're talking about a site that ships malware. Maybe give money to github or a smaller competitor.

[–]Chevex 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

You missed the point. I didn't mean give them money now. I meant before they went to shit. Also, I was just repeating the sentiment from the article.

[–]trmns 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why should they have paid sourceforge for hosting elementary, when all the "work" was done by the mirrors which are DONATED to SF?

[–]Noremac55 4ポイント5ポイント  (8子コメント)

So what do I use now?

[–]dingo_bat 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

Github.

[–]send-me-to-hell 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Does github provide binaries? TBH that would be a service I'd pay for, automatic compilation and repo building for my github project for the various popular distros.

[–]dingo_bat 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

You can add a pre-compiled binary in your repo. But I don't think they will compile it for you.

[–]dvdkon 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

FYI Gitlab has a build system AFAIK and there are quite a few third-party services that provide CI for Github.

[–]jarfil 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Git + Dropbox (really, all you need is any semblance of a shared drive)

[–]scoith 45ポイント46ポイント  (13子コメント)

The attitude in the post is like an ode to their previous stunt, but failing to be coherent and logical. And I can see only one explanation for this.

We haven’t paid Sourceforge a dime for the petabytes of bandwidth that we’ve consumed over the years. We’re the teenager that rages against their parents, screaming “no fair” while freeloading. Finally, we’ve woken up and decided to put on the grown-up pants.

The thing is, they are again misunderstading what they are dealing with. What SourceForge did was unethical; the exploited the faith its users put into it. And they didn't let projects go when their administrators tried to move them away, which still bundling them with crapware and tarnishing the image of the projects. They don't need to have paid money to complain about this.

They didn't understand what a FOSS distro is back then, and they don't understand what a FOSS project hosting is now. Elementary people imply that projects like GIMP and nmap don't have any right to complain about it, but that is totally bullshit. SourceForge was a business model that existed because of these FOSS projects, and people used SF because they weren't doing the mistakes they are doing now back then.

SF has tarnished their image, and despite the fact that they are trying to move away, SF isn't letting go and continue tarnishing their image. At this point, it doesn't matter if they "didn't pay a dime" or not, they have every right to complain about SF. And those Elementary guys are doing another wrong by implying that GIMP, nmap, ... devs are raging freeloader kids.

There's clearly a message to Elementary users out there: unless you're not paying..., and I think this is the main reason they're talking about dimes, freeloaders and wrongfully raging teenagers; and only this way it makes sense. They're asking Elementary users to stop criticizing them about their previous stunt, accept that using a FOSS OS freely is cheating and pay up in an indirect way (because by now, everybody knows how it goes when you say such outrageous things in a direct way).

So they stopped "raging against their parents, screaming “no fair” while freeloading" by... moving into the cool guy's apartment at school and continuing freeloading partially?

[–]TPHRyan 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

There's clearly a message to Elementary users out there: unless you're not paying..., and I think this is the main reason they're talking about dimes, freeloaders and wrongfully raging teenagers; and only this way it makes sense. They're asking Elementary users to stop criticizing them about their previous stunt, accept that using a FOSS OS freely is cheating and pay up in an indirect way (because by now, everybody knows how it goes when you say such outrageous things in a direct way).

I think you're trying to read into this too much. It just looked to me like they were leaving SF in a way that charitably gave them the benefit of the doubt, and accepting an overly generous amount of responsibility, instead of just shit-stirring like everyone else.

[–]coolbho3k 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sounded like "we're moving away from Sourceforge because they did some bad things recently but we still appreciate the fact that they've hosted our software for free over the years" which is fine to me.

[–]scoith -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You realize this is not an alternative explanation to why they are talking about "freeloaders", "didn't pay a dime" and being "no fair".

And no, this doesn't justify name-calling GIMP, nmap and all other projects who didn't pay, yet complained.

instead of just shit-stirring like everyone else.

Wow. So in your world view, GIMP devs are "shit-stirring", and they have to shut up and suck it up, and let SF tarnish their image forever. Are you affiliated with Elementary people?

[–]DanielFore[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

I want to respond to this post because I think you make some interesting points :)

We agree that what Sourceforge did was unethical. That was why we wanted to move away. I'm not sure what Sourceforge's numbers look like, but the ads that they serve must not be doing that well if they feel like they have to do stuff like this to turn a buck. Another commentor said they should have been more open and just asked for help with funding and I agree that would have been a better path. But I think there's a bigger conversation to be had about how we fund the open source ecosystem and what happens when we rely on advertisements as a funding model and what our role in that ecosystem is. I think it's a little more nuanced than "Sourceforge is evil now".

Regarding our new servers, I realize that might be a little foggy. The situation is that normally they would have a bandwidth cap. One of the guys on our web team has been with Digital Ocean for a long time and they used to have unlimited bandwidth. So we reached out to them and they were kind enough to honor the original unlimited bandwidth agreement. So these are servers that we pay for, but at a discount. So before our servers were paid for by ads from Sourceforge. Now they are just paid directly out of our pocket.

Edit: it looks like you made quite a few edits while I was typing. I'm not going to address those because it's late here and I have to sleep :p

[–]send-me-to-hell 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

That was why we wanted to move away. I'm not sure what Sourceforge's numbers look like, but the ads that they serve must not be doing that well if they feel like they have to do stuff like this to turn a buck.

Or they just thought they'd get away with it. The people who run SF now aren't the same as when they first started. There are other avenues for making money than bundling your product with adware and then lying to the people who trusted you enough to download and install something you gave them.

I also don't see how you can possibly reconcile their for-profit motives with an apparent appeal to think of what they've done for the community. SF had a positive impact but they weren't be altruistic if the idea was that they were going to make money doing this. You can't have both these things. If you're trying to make money of an action then you're no longer doing anyone a favor. You're a business that has a relationship with your customers. It's just apparently SF thinks of it as more of an "Ike Turner" relationship.

SF had enormous street cred for the majority of its existence. They've been doing this adware stuff for years and frankly after the GIMP thing people just genuinely feel like they've burned through whatever street cred they had. They're quickly approaching "Experts Exchange" level of desirability.

But I think there's a bigger conversation to be had about how we fund the open source ecosystem and what happens when we rely on advertisements as a funding model and what our role in that ecosystem is.

Funding in the open ecosystem is more or less settled outside of some possible future upsets. You either set up a chartiable foundation and encourage people to donate for the PR and tax deduction, or you develop a product+set of services with the idea that you'll eventually go public. 90% of FOSS companies fall into that category.

[–]Letmefixthatforyouyo 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Funding in the open ecosystem is more or less settled outside of some possible future upsets. You either set up a chartiable foundation and encourage people to donate for the PR and tax deduction, or you develop a product+set of services with the idea that you'll eventually go public. 90% of FOSS companies fall into that category.

Thats the thing. The Elementary devs cant take that stance, since they decided that they are outside of it. They want to be paid for FOSS, so they cant say that sourceforges alternative funding is wrong, since they too have an alternative funding method that equates to "coerced voluntary."

[–]send-me-to-hell 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe the technical term is guiltware.

My sense of the eOS thing, though, is that they just legitimately don't understand how money in FOSS works and were expecting it to work like it does with proprietary software where it's pay-to-play.

[–]DanielFore[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

Or they just thought they'd get away with it.

That's possible, but I try not to assume ill intent. I don't think running a business is necessarily in conflict with altruism. It's not like a switch between wanting to do good things and hey now we're evil because it's a business. I do think that if you're not careful about how you raise funds that your profit motives can become out of alignment with your customer's motives. But I think that in an ideal capitalistic situation when you make your customers happy, you are successful, and when you make your customers mad you are not successful. So it's in your best interest to work on doing things that make people happy or in a more flowery context, making the world a better place should be good business. But something went wrong for Sourceforge. I don't work there so I don't know what happened. But something went wrong to where "doing good" wasn't the most profitable thing for them. And I think that's the most important conversation to have about Sourceforge is how to make "doing good" the most profitable thing that a business can do.

Funding in the open ecosystem is more or less settled

I really don't like the idea that funding is "settled".

It's really hard to set up a non-profit in the US. In fact some people are saying that it's no longer possible. Check out Yorba's story on that. But the reality is that being a non-profit only means you have certain tax exemptions. It doesn't mean you don't have regular business expenses like payroll and infrastructure. Food still has to hit the table at some point and as far as I can tell most indies have demonstrated that donations aren't a super viable model of funding. So I don't really see this as a solution.

Basically what you're saying to me is that the only option is to become a giant corporation who makes the majority of their money outside of the consumer sphere and to basically only have consumer products as a side project. I don't like that at all. What this implies is that open source is doomed to permanently be a second-class citizen.

I do think there is room for a purely consumer-focused open-source business model to exist. I also think that it can be done without advertisements or data mining. And I even think it can be done on a purely pay-what-you-want basis. That's something I'm working to prove. Open source software can be just as good and as profitable as closed source software. I want open source to be viable. For everyone.

I think that we as an open source ecosystem need to take funding seriously. Watching more people try crowdfunding campaigns and Patreon and Bountysource and other models, I think there are other indies that agree it's worth trying.

[–]send-me-to-hell 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

(apologies in advance for the length but I think you said some stuff that needs responding to to avoid misapprehension)

I don't think running a business is necessarily in conflict with altruism.

No but like I'm saying in the comment you're replying to it changes whether we should accept an emotion-based appeal from them. The people who own Jiffy Lube may legitimately believe their mission statement and like that they're changing people's oil at a reasonable price. Even if they do feel that way, I shouldn't feel guilt or remorse should they not be able to turn a profit somehow. It would be one thing if it was a charity, but both of these organizations are businesses.

I don't work there so I don't know what happened.

Requiring insider knowledge for judgment is setting the bar a tad too high. It's hard to imagine a case where someone could culpable for something if we had to listen to enough of "their side" until something they said eventually landed.

This isn't a subtle or nuanced issue. This is about as black and white as these things get.

But something went wrong to where "doing good" wasn't the most profitable thing for them.

Like I also said in the comment you're replying to, there were loads of ways they could have made money. It's just that those ways required work and creativity and it's easier to just bundle adware with your downloads. Sometimes the guy who robs a bank isn't Jean Valjean, he's just a guy who likes money. SF certainly doesn't look like a Valjean underdog here. They're just people who thought they'd make some money and nobody would care because they're SourceForge.

Check out Yorba's story on that.

Four years for approval seems excessive to me as well. IIRC Gentoo qualified after a year. It's possible that the four years is actually a good sign in that it may be indicative of deliberations going on behind the scenes. Most of the IRS's statements make it clear that they couldn't see how this was charitable work versus just work that they do and want to have made tax deductible, which is a reasonable response. They restructure to do things like pushing for internationalization of their applications, offering public education programs, adding features to their program that seem targeted for underserved communities, etc. This really reads like someone who thought they gave out tax deductible status like it was nothing.

The way it's worded also makes it sound like they took a reactive approach and didn't push the issue, which may have sped the process along as well. I just say that because they don't mention having continually badgered people on the status of their application (which may have given them a chance to argue their case) and just kind of sat back and waited for it to happen. Again, I don't know that to be the case but that's how it reads.

Then there's this:

The purpose of source code is so that people can modify the code and compile it into object code that controls a computer to perform tasks. Anything learned by people studying the source code is incidental.

Which is actually true. Their claim to be an educational charity was pretty slim. There's nothing I can find about them that would imply that to be the case. I can see putting it on their application with "all they can do is say no" logic but it shouldn't be surprising that they felt this way.

The public work ones could have probably been argued against since there can be a case made for that, but it doesn't sound like they even tried. Their software could be a public work and the copyright one sounds like they just didn't understand that people surrender their copyright claim when they contribute to FOSS. They could probably have pushed that one. It still would have taken more to get tax exempt status but this point is easily pushed back on.

But the reality is that being a non-profit only means you have certain tax exemptions

It's more than just "certain tax exemptions." The 501(c)(3) designation allows people who donate to you to write off the expense as a charitable donation. Corporations do this all the time. It's good PR and sometimes (like with old equipment you were going to surplus anyways) it's actually zero cost or a net gain for the donating organization. There are also grants and other types of special funding you're only going to qualify for if you're a recognized non-profit.

It doesn't mean you don't have regular business expenses like payroll and infrastructure.

As opposed to a for-profit where these things are free? Take eOS for example, you are already taking in money and and paying for the stuff you need. That doesn't change just if you were a registered non-profit. The income you're getting now stays the same but now people have more of a self-interested reason to donate and you can solicit donations without sounding greedy.

Basically what you're saying to me is that the only option is to become a giant corporation who makes the majority of their money outside of the consumer sphere and to basically only have consumer products as a side project. I don't like that at all.

Well that's alright because that's not at all implied by what I said up there. I never said anything about consumer-facing stuff so I don't know where you're getting that. I tried to think of a response and just couldn't. It's possible this is just us talking passed each other here, so you may want to elaborate on what you're meaning there.

Also, public companies aren't necessarily huge. puppetlabs is going public while having a revenue of about $8 million. For a company with that high of a profile, that's basically nothing. You need a ramp up period, a solid business plan, and early investors but it's definitely do-able.

implies is that open source is doomed to permanently be a second-class citizen.

You realize even just Linux by itself is a multi-billion dollar industry. By itself, Red Hat takes in about a billion and a half every year. We should be so lucky to be second class citizens if that's the standard.

I do think there is room for a purely consumer-focused open-source business model to exist. I also think that it can be done without advertisements or data mining

Great, I agree. It's just not pay-for-play like with what exists for proprietary vendors. You guys saw that first hand by trying to rebrand "payments" as being "donations."

FOSS is different than proprietary software because it's developed by multiple stakeholders rather than just a government-granted monopoly where the idea is that the copyright holder will get all the money and use that to resolve any blindspots in the product. FOSS is a community of stakeholders coming together to maintain the same ecosystem of products.

For example, eOS benefits extensively from work done by other companies/organizations. The fact that you have a stable kernel with decent hardware support and a full-featured graphical environment is a testament done by companies like Samsung, Red Hat, Cannonical, SuSE, Intel, AMD, etc, etc, etc. You're paying those guys $0 but getting 100% of the benefit when you're developing your product. That's also a non-trivial amount of work.

But that's OK, because no single company owns the commons. It's great in fact. eOS doing that is part of the reason why FOSS is more ethical than proprietary models which have vendor lock-in where users feel forced to continue their relationship with a company even if they would prefer not to continue it.

In the case of SourceForge, they also had the majority of their product (compiled binaries) done by their customers and basically just needed to profit from being the platform they used to distribute binaries. That's a pretty broad mandate to not be able to think of a single ethical way to monetize your product. I mentioned elsewhere that charging a reasonable fee for automated repository management would be an excellent service, but they just didn't do it. They didn't even try from what I can tell.

And I even think it can be done on a purely pay-what-you-want basis.

I don't think so. Otherwise, what are you going to do when someone strips your branding and redistributes eOS on their own? That's what CentOS is to RH. RH doesn't seem to mind too much but even if they did they couldn't stop CentOS.

It's more viable to sell add-on services like if you were to create a simplified Foreman+Pulp+Puppet systems management system and charge for support, training, consulting, certification, etc, etc. You can also use the platform to tie into pay services you do provide like cloud storage. You can go on from there but the point in saying that is just that there are loads of ways to make money off an OS rather than charging for it and calling it a donation. You are legally allowed to charge for it (FSF agrees with that publicly) you just can't stop someone else from redistributing the software you use. You can stop them from distributing branding because that's copyright/trademark which isn't covered by GPL.

I want open source to be viable.

I think you may be slightly out of touch with the reality of the situation if you don't already think this is the case. The desktop PC is basically the one and only place Linux isn't a huge competitor.

[–]DanielFore[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah I definitely think you fully have the right to criticize Sourceforge as much as you'd like. But I also think it's worth spending the time to talk about how funding works in open source :)

The 501(c)(3) designation allows people who donate to you to write off the expense as a charitable donation

Right, but it also comes with restrictions. We decided that for us personally it didn't make sense to spend the effort on non-profit status. That's not to say that it doesn't make sense for anyone, but that it should also be a perfectly valid thing to form a corporation.

people surrender their copyright claim when they contribute to FOSS

Woah, that is not true at all! Canonical has come under a lot of fire for trying to force people to surrender their copyright. Copyright is what allows us to enforce licensing. The copyright holder is also able to re-license. So if you surrender your copyright, there is a possibility for you work to be licensed under a non-free license.

You're paying those guys $0 but getting 100% of the benefit when you're developing your product. That's also a non-trivial amount of work.

Might not really be worth addressing, but that's not entirely true. We do contribute both code and financially to our upstreams and we have downstreams as well. We don't contribute nearly as much as some of these larger companies, but we are doing our share of giving with the taking. However I would disagree that the work of other constitutes the majority of our product. At least it doesn't constitute the majority of unique value in our product. The same could be said of Ubuntu (especially on mobile). The majority of value for the customer is derived from their experience with the product and not necessarily all the bits and pieces below. I think that's an important distinction to make for anyone who builds on the work of others. It still takes time to do that building and that's all we're interested in funding is what it takes to bake our piece of the pie.

You guys saw that first hand by trying to rebrand "payments" as being "donations."

We NEVER ever use the word donation. We feel that would be intentionally misleading since we are not a non-profit and payments are not tax deductible.

charge for support, training, consulting, certification, etc,

I don't agree with these funding models because I think they put a financial incentive that is in conflict with the user. When you sell more support contracts your profits go up. So if you build software that needs supporting, you make more money. If you build software that needs less support, you lose money. On the other hand, if you provide free support, now you've got a financial incentive to lower the amount of support you have to provide.

what are you going to do when someone strips your branding and redistributes [elementary OS] on their own

Absolutely nothing! They totally have the right to do that if they wish. We've seen numerous remixes come and go. Our customers pay for the continued experience they get from elementary specifically. If some other company comes along and out-competes us that is totally fair game.

I think you may be slightly out of touch with the reality of the situation if you don't already think this is the case.

I think we're talking about different market segments, and that's maybe where some of the disconnect is coming regarding business models with Redhat, Canonical, etc. I'm focused specifically on the consumer desktop market. I'm not particularly interested in server or enterprise. I'm more interested in indie app developers and that sort of thing :)

Thanks for taking the time to have this conversation!

[–]send-me-to-hell -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right, but it also comes with restrictions. We decided that for us personally it didn't make sense to spend the effort on non-profit status. That's not to say that it doesn't make sense for anyone, but that it should also be a perfectly valid thing to form a corporation.

Yeah and none of this should be construed as me saying eOS should do this or that. I'm just offering up examples of how people have been able to successfully and sustainably produce FOSS software.

Woah, that is not true at all!

That's completely true. If random contributors still owned the copyright to what they did you would never be allowed to change the licensing and it would be so convoluted as to render the GPL basically unenforceable. When you contribute to a project that you don't own, you're forfeiting your right to that IP.

Projects re-license themselves all the time (for example MySQL) and the reason they're allowed to do that without tracking down each and every person who ever contributed is because MySQL AB are actually technically the people who own MySQL (well Oracle now but you get the idea) and so they can release it under any license they want.

So if you surrender your copyright, there is a possibility for you work to be licensed under a non-free license.

Yes and no. For example, I don't know who actually holds the copyright on the Linux kernel but let's just say it's Linus himself. If he decided to make the kernel closed source tomorrow he could. The problem is that he's already released a previous version of the kernel under the GPL so that next proprietary version of Linux better be so great it justifies why he's now telling people to pay for it. Meanwhile, someone just forks the kernel and everyone just wishes him luck with his thing and continues on like nothing happened. Too bad Linus. GPL obligations work both directions. When people were worried Oracle would do something like that with MySQL, that's when we got MariaDB.

Not sure what you're referring to with Cannonical but the only copyright thing I've heard in regards to them is that they may have so much NIH because they want to be the copyright holders so that they an choose when to relicense it for closed source applications.

However I would disagree that the work of other constitutes the majority of our product. At least it doesn't constitute the majority of unique value in our product.

Your work only has value because of the work of others. My point also wasn't to say your work isn't valuable, but that you guys have that minimum payment of $0 and in return get the ability to do what you do without having to be a company the size of Oracle or IBM.

The same could be said of Ubuntu (especially on mobile). The majority of value for the customer is derived from their experience with the product and not necessarily all the bits and pieces below.

I'm going to disagree with you pretty strongly here. That can only be said if someone has an entitled and disrespectful attitude towards the people who worked to give them something for free. Maintaining the underlying system is incredibly crucial for the final product to have value.

For example, without kernel development you don't have hardware support and without hardware support eOS gets to tell 90% of the people of the world they can't run your product. Nobody needs an OS that can't actually do anything. You may have optimized high visibility areas but the OS's actual value is invisible to the average user. They don't see the work you put into supporting devices, they just know they plug their USB stick in and it works. You can't see all the work that goes into that but it's real and it has value. Value you're now able to re-sell without having to contribute anything yourself. It's kind of shitty to build the last bit ontop of all the work and then act like your part in it is all that matters just because it's higher visibility. </snark>

We NEVER ever use the word donation. We feel that would be intentionally misleading since we are not a non-profit and payments are not tax deductible.

Whether you'd use the word or not, that's basically the idea communicated by your current income model.

When you sell more support contracts your profits go up. So if you build software that needs supporting, you make more money.

The vast majority of Linux distros don't have support that's highly utilized. It's mainly there because the customer needs it there just on the off chance they do need it. A lot of RH Support (which I used to do) is for non-trivial tasks that have nothing to do with usability (kernel panics, for instance). The vast majority of issues are handled internally by customers or community support is utilized.

This comment also ignores whether competition with other vendors will cause companies to make their product easier to use.

If what you were saying were true there would be no simplification coming out of RH and Ubuntu is impossible. Yet Linux just keeps getting easier and easier to use. You may be assuming that because previously a large number of distros sold competing against traditional Unix vendors. Compared to them GNU/Linux is incredibly easy to use.

If you build software that needs less support, you lose money.

Or the product reputation leads to better brand reputation that you can use to increase sales on other services. Your server OS is nice stable, easy to use, so they buy your load balancing appliance, etc, etc. If your reputation suffers, then people won't have faith in your product at all, on the other hand.

On the other hand, if you provide free support, now you've got a financial incentive to lower the amount of support you have to provide.

That's not really what I've seen. If you lower the cost of a service more people will use it. You have to charge for support because that's the finite resource that increases the demand on your organization. If you don't charge you end up supporting a bunch of RTFM and "do it for me please" questions.

If some other company comes along and out-competes us that is totally fair game.

Which is going to happen eventually. The project size is probably the only reason it hasn't happened yet. It's also not a case of "remixing" since they could pull a full CentOS and do nothing except replace the branding. It's not really a competition at that point.

I'm not particularly interested in server or enterprise.

I was speaking more broadly than that but enterprise is where the money is. eOS will continue to have money problems as long as the only people who pay are donors who like using your one specific platform so much they don't feel right not paying.

The desktop market is essentially a dead end for smaller companies. You have to be a large company to even play that game. Apple is pretty much the only company that can compete with MS on the desktop. The Linux desktop is essentially feature complete but there's not a strong incentive for regular non-technical users to change their OS. The average user is also not going to care enough to donate so you'll have huge financial commitments to support people who may normally just legitimately not even know you exist even though they use your product every day.

If you want to remain consumer-facing build a webapp or some sort of home appliance or something. The desktop is virtually hopeless. You're doing about as well as I'd imagine someone focusing on the desktop could do and you're still having problems.

[–]ironmig 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Umm... Torrents.

[–]larppina -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

dae sourceforge bad?