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Children need heterosexual parents, says pope after gay pride march (washingtonpost.com)

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[–]Reformedmoby__dick 176ポイント177ポイント  (29子コメント)

This just in: the Pope is Catholic!

[–]Agnostic (a la T.H. Huxley)Bubbleeh 49ポイント50ポイント  (27子コメント)

this comment is new and original.

[–]Southern BaptistJohnie4usc 34ポイント35ポイント  (23子コメント)

Everybody loves the Pope until his views on homosexuality come up then it's just "well the pope IS catholic."

[–]Roman CatholicNakuke 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

As new and original as this article.

[–]Agnostic (a la T.H. Huxley)Bubbleeh 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

regardless posting the article adds more to discussion in this sub than the painfully cliche "the pope is catholic" "water is wet" type of shitpost comment

[–]James_The_Narrator 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

https://youtube.com/watch?v=-1yzoiUIGGs

[–]Episcopalian (Anglican)beiaard 40ポイント41ポイント  (8子コメント)

The going rate for a I'm not even Christian, but I really like this pope! post is suddenly a lot higher...

[–]Orthodox Seekerinput_cords 50ポイント51ポイント  (6子コメント)

Always funny how his statements on climate change and helping the Popepoor get upvoted on the default subs and people get all "well I sure like this new Pope", but when he talks about faith and family all of a sudden "whoah what the hell, is he, like, Catholic or something?"

[–]AtheistIdlePigeon 14ポイント15ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well yes, when he uses his influence to give a call to action on serious issues that most reasonably people agree desperately need to be addressed, people applaud him. When he uses his influence to spread what is at best empty supposition and at worst malicious slander and either way works to deprive gay people of equal treatment under the law, people wish he wouldn't do that.

[–]Christian Atheistbopll 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yup. Its really not complicated. People just want to put their public figureheads into "good" and "bad" boxes

[–]DropShotter 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

Serious question. What's a Christian atheist?

[–]Christian Atheistbopll 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

It depends on the christian atheist that you ask, but for me it means that I operate under the assumption that there is no supernatural, and yet I continue to participate in the Christian tradition because I believe in the transformative power that a relationship with God (through Jesus) can bring--even if God is just a human construct.

[–]cafedude 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also a serious question (or perhaps request for clarification is more accurate): So you don't believe in the supernatural, therefore the Christian narrative cannot be true, but you want to live as though it is true because it seems better than the alternatives?

And when you say "transformative power" what exactly does that mean in this context? (just curious)

[–]DropShotter [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So is it like being agnostic while still participating in Christian traditions because you like them?

[–]Roman CatholicDEM_DRY_BONES 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sell sell sell!

[–]Reformedwwstevens 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

This whole thread is a lesson in Presuppositional Apologetics.

[–]Colehandro 55ポイント56ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wait, heterosexual marriage ensured a couple's happiness? Can someone tell my parents that, I don't think they got the message!

[–]Roman CatholicKaiosama 30ポイント31ポイント  (15子コメント)

The pope hasn't experienced what it feels like growing up in a loveless, dysfunctional household.

I have.

I would rather have grown up in a household with a loving family rather than pretend mine was superior because both parents where heterosexual.

What a completely illogical conclusion the pope has presented.

Honestly I don't think it's even the church's duty to dictate what type of households people create for themselves. There's so many more pressing matters that aren't being attended to.

[–]Irish CatholicSpeaksForItself 11ポイント12ポイント  (3子コメント)

So many Catholics, and Christians in general, seem obsessed with homosexuality to the detriment of all the other WAY more pressing issues facing the Church.

[–]Roman CatholicKaiosama 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Exactly. It's so tangential to so many major issues that actually affect the vast majority of people's daily lives.

[–]Irish CatholicSpeaksForItself [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I think at the heart of it is the desire to focus on the sins of other people and ignore our own.

[–]Roman CatholicKaiosama [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So true. You're right on the money on that one.

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    [–]Secular Humanistraluth 73ポイント74ポイント  (102子コメント)

    Heterosexual marriages not only ensured couples’ happiness, the pontiff said, but were deemed essential for good parenting.

    Not if one party turns out to be gay, they don't!

    edit: also, happiness is not "ensured", even for heterosexuals

    I love the shifting-the-subject that goes on between parenting and gay marriage. In the scenarios where this is even relevant, the alternatives are:

    • child has married unhappy unfulfilled parents
    • child has single parent
    • child has parent and unmarried same-sex partner
    • child has parent and married same-sex partner

    Of those, the last would seem to be the most enriching and stable outcome. And despite the hyperbole, most meta-studies show no significant difference in outcomes between same-sex and heterosexual partner pairs, in terms of upbringing of children. So it is ludicrous to say "heterosexual better" - that's just a polite form of "eugh, that's icky"

    In particular, note that when differences have been seen between heterosexual and same-sex children outcomes, a: it goes both ways (sometimes A is "better", sometimes B), and b: this effect is less than the effect of things like socio-economic group. Would it be OK for the pope to say "poor people shouldn't have/keep kids" ? Disabled people? Particular races? Widows/widowers? Particular religions?

    [–]Free Methodistrilivas 32ポイント33ポイント  (53子コメント)

    And despite the hyperbole, most meta-studies show no significant difference in outcomes between same-sex and heterosexual partner pairs, in terms of upbringing of children.

    the social acceptability of same-sex couples having children is too recent to have a good sample or duration for any kind of study.

    [–]Christian Universalistkey_lime_pie 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

    American Academy of Pediatrics:

    "A large body of scientific literature demonstrates that children and adolescents who grow up with gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Although the methodologic challenges are daunting in addressing phenomena as complex and multifactorial as children’s long-term developmental and psychosocial outcomes, the literature accumulated over more than 30 years, taken together, provides robust, reliable, and valid assurance about the well-being of children raised by parents of the same gender."

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/03/18/peds.2013-0377

    [–]Mesne 63ポイント64ポイント  (47子コメント)

    Which is more reason to reject assertions like those that the pope made.

    [–]Christian (anibaptist LGBT)nsdwight 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    There has been a scientific consensus about same-sex parents since 2000. source

    There have been same-sex parents for decades now. They didn't have legal protection, but they survived and thrived anyways.

    コメントをもっと表示する (48 返事)

      [–]enterence 22ポイント23ポイント  (37子コメント)

      So all you divorced single parents, too bad. Go to your nearest church and turn your kids in.

      /S

      [–]Evangelical Lutheran Church in AmericaALittleLutheran 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Widows/widowers too. And just forget the idea of an unmarried aunt or uncle taking in their sibling's children after a car crash or cancer death.

      [–]Eastern OrthodoxId_Tap_Dat -1ポイント0ポイント  (33子コメント)

      Do you really think the Catholic church is ok with divorced and single parents? Accuse them of being strict in their norms about marriage, but you can't actually accuse them of applying that strictness unevenly.

      [–]Downtown_Joe 7ポイント8ポイント  (30子コメント)

      Well, you don't see them protesting as vehemently as you do with them and the gays. It hardly gets any air time at all, compared to the elephant in the room.

      [–]Eastern Orthodoxloukaspetourkas 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

      They protested when no-fault divorce was being instituted or when adultery became legal. They're addressing current issues as they come along.

      They very well still keep their stance on divorce...

      [–]Eastern OrthodoxId_Tap_Dat 0ポイント1ポイント  (27子コメント)

      Divorcees don't hold parades in the middle of every major american city and call anyone who thinks divorce is a sin (the overwhelming majority of humanity) a bunch of backward bigots on television. Secular culture, not the church, keeps bringing this into the center of public discourse. The church has just been restating its position for the last 70 years or so.

      [–]BornInATrailer 6ポイント7ポイント  (17子コメント)

      Divorcees also aren't prevented from (re)marrying nor do they face any particular discrimination due to their divorced status, at least certainly not outside the church. The analogy is pretty poor.

      [–]Eastern OrthodoxId_Tap_Dat 3ポイント4ポイント  (16子コメント)

      They are if they're Catholic. And how do you hold the church responsible for the actions of people outside it? That makes no sense.

      [–]BornInATrailer 5ポイント6ポイント  (10子コメント)

      They are if they're Catholic.

      These divorcees are not prevented from remarrying, only from being remarried by the church.

      What makes you believe Catholic divorcees are facing particularly significant discrimination outside the church on a level in any way comparable to homosexuals right now?

      [–]PurpleSabbath 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Are Catholics advocating state laws to prevent this like they do with gay marriage and adoption?

      [–]PurpleSabbath 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

      No, the anti-gay marriage crowd is the one who keeps making it an issue. If it were not for them, gay marriage would have been legal a long time ago and it wouldn't be an issue.

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          [–]Roman CatholicRegnumMariae 43ポイント44ポイント  (142子コメント)

          ITT: Pro-Catholic teaching downvoted , anti-Catholicism upvoted

          As usual.

          [–]Atheistpowerchicken 27ポイント28ポイント  (42子コメント)

          So if Catholicism included an irrational discrimination of blacks, we're supposed to not downvote blatant racists because 'it's their religion' ?

          Where does this absolutely insane idea come from that discrimination against some people is just dreadful, but others entirely justified?

          [–]Roman CatholicWin5ton67 2ポイント3ポイント  (27子コメント)

          There is no comparison to be made between a person's color of skin and the potential and free acting upon a sexual pulsion that goes against reason and natural law. Your argument has been used before but it is simply moot. I highly recommend you read this if you want to hear the other side's argument: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

          [–]Episcopalian (Anglican)wtfbirds 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

          sexual pulsion that goes against reason and natural law

          Starting to think "natural law" is something y'all made up to justify prior held beliefs.

          [–]Atheistpowerchicken 2ポイント3ポイント  (24子コメント)

          a sexual pulsion that goes against reason and natural law.

          Your religious beliefs are unnatural and go against reason, so you ought to be able to make great friends with the homosexuals. Since we're using that argument.

          [–]Secular HumanistGroomper [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

          Dude...stop. Not the place for saying things like that.

          [–]Atheistpowerchicken [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

          So he can freely call people unreasonable and unnatural for who they are, but his religious belief shields him against the exact same words. Right.

          [–]No_Chances [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

          I'm all for gay rights but he's just supporting his religious beliefs in his own religious subreddit. Let it be.

          [–]Atheistpowerchicken [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

          No, he was calling people unnatural and unreasonable, he was not supporting his religious beliefs.

          [–]Roman CatholicJames_Locke 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

          You need to be banned from this sub, youre breaking the rules.

          [–]Catholic (Marian Cross)cagg333 -1ポイント0ポイント  (15子コメント)

          unnatural

          go against reason

          Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Augustine, and many others would like to have a good long talk with you.

          [–]Anglican Communionblue9254 4ポイント5ポイント  (14子コメント)

          So we agree that neither Catholicism nor homosexuality is unnatural or goes against reason?

          [–]Catholic (Marian Cross)cagg333 3ポイント4ポイント  (13子コメント)

          Homosexuality doesn't go against reason. It's a temptation and pleasurable for some people. It makes a lot of sense, in the same way that some have a propensity to overeat, or become addicted to substances. Because it's reasonable doesn't mean it's not illicit or a sin to act upon.

          And Catholicism/Christianity/Theism isn't unreasonable or against nature.

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            [–]you_know_what_you 0ポイント1ポイント  (13子コメント)

            Discrimination isn't immoral.

            When going for surgery, do you discriminate between medical doctors who are licensed by the state and the guy down the road who says he can do it for $5 and a ride to the train station? I should hope so.

            Discrimination is how humans decide what to do. What must then be figured out is whether that act of discrimination is based on anything real and important.

            [–]Agnostic (a la T.H. Huxley)forthewar 6ポイント7ポイント  (12子コメント)

            When people say "discrimination" you may as well put a unjust right before it because that is how it is always meant.

            [–]Roman Catholicdyskutant 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

            My favorite thing that happened on this sub, this was an actual thread.

            Somebody asked if anyone liked theocracy.

            People who said yes were downvoted.

            [–]FlappyChapcranter 3ポイント4ポイント  (62子コメント)

            When you say bigoted things that aren't based in reality, it tends to get criticized. Who would have thought?

            [–][削除されました]  (29子コメント)

            [deleted]

              [–]FlappyChapcranter 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I find any kind of irrational prejudice bigoted, because thats how its defined. Just because its the pope doesnt mean he's immune to criticism, It would be just as disgusting if he said the same thing about interracial marriage. If you find it offensive, just imagine what would be like if an entire religion hates you because of who you love.

              [–]Atheistcattaclysmic 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

              top using the term bigot when someone's agenda doesn't match your own. A catholic believing and upholding the teachings that are found in his doctrine and scripture for thousands of years? Who would have thought?

              So the mormons discriminating against black people for 150 years wasn't bigoted? Or does it have to be 1000 years old for it to not be bigoted?

              [–]TruthWinsInTheEnd 4ポイント5ポイント  (12子コメント)

              Stop using the term bigot when someone's agenda doesn't match your own.

              lol, "stop labeling me a bigot when I say bigoted things!"

              [–][削除されました]  (11子コメント)

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                [–]LGBT Christianstheguesswhat 4ポイント5ポイント  (10子コメント)

                You should. Bigoted theology is still bigoted.

                [–][削除されました]  (13子コメント)

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                  [–][削除されました]  (12子コメント)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]Agaeris 5ポイント6ポイント  (8子コメント)

                    The reality is, this is something integral in their faith and has been, it will not change.

                    Opposing gay marriage and opposing same-sex couples from adopting children is not integral to anyone's faith.

                    Bigotry is defined as "intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself". It is possible that the Pope is bigoted. It's also possible that he's not. You (or I) can't say for certain one way or another.

                    [–][削除されました]  (7子コメント)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

                      Simple. Catholics getting married under the auspices of the catholic church is integral to Catholicism.

                      Everybody else, getting married by what or whomever presides at their wedding Doesn't have a FARGIN thing to do with the Catholic faith.

                      Got It?

                      In the USA, no religion can be forced to endorse a marriage that does not meet that religion's requirements.

                      So while the Catholic Church doesn't have to, and may never allow same sex marriage under their auspices, saying that no one else can do it is just stupid.

                      (But, you know, eventually, the Catholic Church gave up on that whole "the earth is the center of the cosmos" thing. they'll come around on this too. just 300 years too late. )

                      [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

                      [deleted]

                        [–]FlappyChapcranter 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        So when he espouses prejudice as a virtue to the whole world, not just Christians, he's going to be criticized. Actions have consequences, and if you're going to encourage hate and fear of people based on their sexual orientation Catholics need to be prepared to face the music. Its completely abhorrent.

                        [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                        "the earth being the center of the cosmos thing" is NOT catholic doctrine.

                        You mean "not any more"

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                            [–]Roman CatholicRegnumMariae -2ポイント-1ポイント  (31子コメント)

                            One mans faith is a leftists bigotry.

                            [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 12ポイント13ポイント  (30子コメント)

                            So owning slaves is OK?

                            Because "lefties" view that as bigotry.

                            So not letting women have the same rights and opportunities as men is OK ?

                            Because "lefties" view that as bigotry.

                            So not treating homosexual people with equality is OK?

                            Because "lefties" view that as bigotry.

                            When you promote homophobic violation of people's civil right in public, you will be treated the same as a racist bigot, because your bigotry is the same .

                            [–][削除されました]  (22子コメント)

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                              [–]Roman CatholicRegnumMariae 6ポイント7ポイント  (16子コメント)

                              Life doesn't work that way. A faith that people have lived by for 2000 years isn't suddenly "not reality" because you disagree with it.

                              [–]Eastern OrthodoxProf_Acorn 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

                              And something being popular doesn't make it "reality" just because lots of people agree with it.

                              That's an ad populum.

                              [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                              Fortunately, just because a fact is popular doesn't mean its not reality.

                              you know, like the fact the the earth orbits the sun and not vice versa.

                              Facts are facts. Catholicism has a history of finding it hard to deal with reality. (not just Catholicism of course.)

                              Telling married people to not use Birth control that's absolutely saying Nope! to reality.

                              Telling people that using condoms is a sin, that's absolutely saying Nope! to reality.

                              Telling people that homosexuality is a sin, that's absolutely saying Nope! to reality.

                              [–]Eastern Orthodoxloukaspetourkas 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                              Telling married people to not use Birth control that's absolutely saying Nope! to reality. Telling people that using condoms is a sin, that's absolutely saying Nope! to reality. Telling people that homosexuality is a sin, that's absolutely saying Nope! to reality.

                              This is an empty statement that only works when preaching to the choir. Explain why any of these things are saying "nope to reality."

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                                [–]AtheistIdlePigeon 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                You don't understand guys, our beliefs are super old and everyone knows really old beliefs are all totally accurate.

                                [–]AtheistUncleSlippyFist 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                Well Islam is around 1500 years old so does that make everything they teach about three quarters as correct as Catholicism? Or can we agree the age of an idea is completely irrelevant?

                                [–]Roman CatholicRegnumMariae 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                I would never say, "Islam is not reality"

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                                    [–]inyouraeroplane 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                    Not approving of things in reality and expecting some moral restraint from people is not saying nope to reality.

                                    [–]Rational ChristianGeohump -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                    Telling married people to not use Birth control that's absolutely saying Nope! to reality.

                                    Telling people that using condoms is a sin, that's absolutely saying Nope! to reality.

                                    Telling people that homosexuality is a sin, that's absolutely saying Nope! to reality.

                                    [–]inyouraeroplane 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                    Keep repeating that like you have and you just might be correct eventually.

                                    Luckily, you're not the one who determines reality or what constitutes a sin.

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                                      [–]Roman CatholicOtiac [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                      ...look around you

                                      [–]Christian (Cross)NorthBlizzard -5ポイント-4ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                      It's become a propaganda sub.

                                      [–][削除されました]  (9子コメント)

                                      [deleted]

                                        [–]Eastern OrthodoxLuluThePanda[M] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Your comment violates Rule 1.3 and has been removed.

                                        [–]Eastern Orthodoxloukaspetourkas 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                        "Nope to reality".

                                        What does this even mean? This could mean so many different things to so many people in different times.

                                        [–]Christian (anibaptist LGBT)nsdwight 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

                                        If you don't believe in absolute truth...

                                        [–]Eastern Orthodoxloukaspetourkas 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                        That is a self defeating statement. Saying that there is "no absolute truth" is proclaiming a truth, while stating there isn't one.

                                        [–]Christian (anibaptist LGBT)nsdwight 2ポイント3ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                        Which is what I was trying to say. It's absurd to say reality could mean different things.

                                        [–]Thewallmachine 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        I was raised in a heterosexual household and I can say I am very fucked up.

                                        Gay or straight parents, kids need a loving home. It doesn't matter the gender of your parents. What matters is if they love and support you.

                                        [–]Orthodox Seekerinput_cords [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                        Inb4 "actually gender and sex are two different things"

                                        [–]Pagandolphins3 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        And he's obviously wrong.

                                        [–]Eastern Orthodoxdmremic 16ポイント17ポイント  (20子コメント)

                                        What's so wrong with having two dads?

                                        [–]Agaeris 23ポイント24ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                        Well, how do you decide which one is the woman??

                                        /s

                                        [–]EvangelicalPrettyPoltergeist 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        They have a water balloon fight, obvs. The winner gets to be dad.

                                        [–]Christian AnarchistMusicOfTheAinur[🍰] 13ポイント14ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                        I hear this Jesus guy had two dads and I think he turned out ok.

                                        [–]Eastern Orthodoxdmremic 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Yes... You get it.

                                        [–]Willfree 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                        He also had a mother, so... /s

                                        [–]Christian AnarchistMusicOfTheAinur[🍰] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        It was obviously a joke.

                                        [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                        Yup. All kids do. My second daughter has two mothers and a dad. We adopted.

                                        Edit: My wife and I are downvoted for adopting? Wow.

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                                          [–][削除されました]  (15子コメント)

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                                            [–]qed1 12ポイント13ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                            There are very few ways to make a baby, all of which involve the sex cells of a male and female. Thus, all children do in fact need heterosexual parents.

                                            I mean, if we are going to run off on tangents that are essentially unrelated to the substance of the article, then no technically children don't need a mother and father, they only need a mother. Theoretically an egg could be fertilized by other cells from the body allowing for the production of a child with no male input (so to speak). Here is brief discussion of the process as tested on mice.

                                            [–]PentecostalWillow536 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                            "you're say a population comprised of all females will...breed?
                                            "life...uh...finds a way."

                                            [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                            Certain species on the planet already can reproduce with only the female gender.

                                            We already clone Complex, chordate mammals, commercially.

                                            Soon we will be able to reproduce humans without a male sperm. (in fact we may already be able to, but its illegal most places so no one will talk about it.)

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                                              [–]Episcopalian (Anglican)dallasdarling 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Can I just point out that just because two people are in a mixed-sex marriage, does NOT mean that one or both of them is heterosexual?

                                              [–]Roman CatholicDEM_DRY_BONES 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                              Pope says something you agree with: "OMG like best Pope evar!"

                                              Pope says something you disagree with: "OMG I can't believe this guy like get with the times!"

                                              [–]Agaeris 26ポイント27ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                              It's okay to like someone with whom you sometimes disagree...

                                              [–]Roman CatholicDEM_DRY_BONES -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              Of course. What I'm getting at is that if you see someone as a moral leader (Catholic or not), perhaps we should start the conversation with leaving our outrage and disbelief at the door. Perhaps then meaningful discussion can occur.

                                              [–]Roman CatholicKaiosama 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Meaningful discussion is occurring. I find this pope to have morally important views in terms of social issues, and in terms of greed corrupting society.

                                              However, to presume that you have experienced a superior upbringing due to both parents being heterosexual as opposed to homosexual is not a moral position. It's simply a bias that exists due to lack of information.

                                              I grew up in a household with two heterosexual parents fighting all the time yet who stayed together for 30 years 'for the kids'.

                                              There is no way I can look back on my experience and pretend I had a superior upbringing compared to a loving couple that happen to be the same gender and are raising kids.

                                              There is no way I can agree with that because I personally know that in my experience it wasn't true.

                                              I feel if the Pope grew up in a household similar to mine there is no way he'd make the statement he did.

                                              [–]Christian (Cross)KJones77 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                              I don't agree with the Pope, but it is good for a child to have both adult female and male influences, though they don't need to be parents to be clear.

                                              [–]Atheistpowerchicken 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              Well, the children of homosexual couples don't tend to be hermits in my experience, so that oughtn't be the biggest of problems.

                                              [–]Christian (Cross)KJones77 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Of course. I'm just saying. It is helpful for kids to have both influences, though the influences don't need to be parents.

                                              [–]Christian Atheistnanonanopico 13ポイント14ポイント  (32子コメント)

                                              I'm tired of raising the heterosexual nuclear family up to the point where it can be an idol.

                                              It's fucked. Anyone in the West from my generation can tell you that it's fucked up beyond all repair. I have two or three friends who have parents that are still together and have a healthy family. That's it. And these were people who tried.

                                              The thing is, family as a closed, nuclear system was a Western, uperclass fantasy anyway--only sustainable through unbalanced economic and social conditions unavailable to the vast majority of the population. For the rest of us, the nuclear family is bullshit. The whole system built around Western kinship terminologies needs to go. I have a family, but most of them aren't even related to me. They're people I chose, and I couldn't be happier about it.

                                              EDIT: Since there's some confusion here, I'll clarify. I'm talking about a culture that treats the heteronormative nuclear family as the fundamental building block of society. The moment we treat that as an ideal wherein we find the fullness of God's plan, we begin to exclude those who are excluded from that system: gay folk, divorced folk, children of divorced parents, widowed folk, elderly folk, couples without children, single couples.

                                              Marriage is fucked because society is trying to make it bear a weight that it can't. I don't think it's inherently wrong, and I sure know people who have very stable, healthy, productive marriages, but I'm saying that the place it occupies in our cultural matrix is fucked, and as long as it occupies that place, it won't be able to be repaired.

                                              [–]Church of the Nazarenememicoot 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              I think the disintegration of family has less to do with heterosexual/homosexuality and more to do with the crumbling of communities.

                                              Traditionally parents weren't the only ones caring for a child. You had aunts, uncles, grandparents, neighbors, all who lived a stone's throw away. I'm confident that's the way we were meant to be raised - amidst community.

                                              I think the longing for the "nuclear' family stems from the longing for a community. The classic nuclear family is the closest looking thing we have today to the traditional village-oriented community structure.

                                              [–]Eastern Orthodoxloukaspetourkas 42ポイント43ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                              It's fucked. Anyone in the West from my generation can tell you that it's fucked up beyond all repair. I have two or three friends who have parents that are still together and have a healthy family. That's it. And these were people who tried.

                                              No its not "fucked" and its definitely not beyond repair. The issue is the fundamental selfishness built into our culture as well as some other things. Families are not at fault. How can anyone have a family when they're together at most an hour in the morning and then several hours at night when everyone is at home. Subtract the numerous extra--curriculars kids have, TV time and now the isolation with internet. No wonder people don't have families! We don't see each other! The thing is, we don't think about families when we as a society decide norms around work and other things in our lives. A fatal mistake it will be...

                                              The thing is, family as a closed, nuclear system was a Western, uperclass fantasy anyway--only sustainable through unbalanced economic and social conditions unavailable to the vast majority of the population.

                                              Thats not true at all. Its a natural social system, not some aristocratic fantasy as you suggested. People have been making families for thousands of years. We're not advocating just Mom, Dad and Kids. It would her wonderful if a wider family lived under one roof, just people did before. Having grandparents around or two siblings and their families sharing space would be great! That would be more economical and it would reinforce family values even further!

                                              The whole system built around Western kinship terminologies needs to go.

                                              Why is that?

                                              EDIT: I'm not sure why you spot on Western kinship in particular. other cultures care as much and even more about who their relatives are. We use different names, but we classify our kin pretty much the same the world round.

                                              I have a family, but most of them aren't even related to me. They're people I chose, and I couldn't be happier about it.

                                              They might be amazing friends that you care about more than anyone else in the world, but it still doesn't make them family.

                                              [–]Leuku 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                              Thats not true at all. Its a natural social system, not some aristocratic fantasy as you suggested. People have been making families for thousands of years. We're not advocating just Mom, Dad and Kids. It would her wonderful if a wider family lived under one roof, just people did before. Having grandparents around or two siblings and their families sharing space would be great! That would be more economical and it would reinforce family values even further!

                                              From a psychological/emotional point of view, that is not necessarily better for the overall emotional health of the family. It really depends on the emotional maturity of the family members as to whether any additional or absence of a family member will be better for the overall emotional health of the children.

                                              Some uncle or grandma can be incredibly beneficial for the children, yet could also be extremely toxic. It's really much more of a crapshoot.

                                              [–]Episcopalian (Anglican)Skeenip 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                              Every study has shown that two-parent households are best when it comes to child raising and have the best outcomes for children. I used to be like you when it came to my views on the traditional nuclear family but becoming a public school teacher really opened my eyes to the reality of the situation. Kids from traditional two parent households have far more stability in their lives and do better academically and emotionally. I would just put this down as anecdotal if every study didn't agree with my own observations on the subject.

                                              [–]Leuku 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Oh I don't disagree with the two-parent household thing.

                                              I was commenting on the notion that even more family members would necessarily be a better thing.

                                              Having parents who form an emotionally and financially supportive pair obviously tends to produce greater emotional security for any children, hence why it is more advisable to allow gay folks to marry so as to encourage that "nuclear" style of parenting.

                                              For a person to remain emotional healthy, they must be able to relieve their accumulated negative emotions. The primary means by which one does this is through emotionally venting to another person. Allowing yourself to be angry, upset, and sad while your partner is there to console you and help you feel safe and secure.

                                              Hence why two-parent households tend to do much better emotionally than single-parent households, though not absolutely necessarily. Almost absolutely necessarily, but not 100%, as it is still possible for a single parent to find an effective means of healthily relieving accumulated negative emotion.

                                              In addition to that, there's also the whole, "There are two of us, so we can share the physical load of maintaining a home, paying bills, and paying attention to our children".

                                              [–]Eastern Orthodoxloukaspetourkas 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                              The wider the community, the greater the stability, no matter the outliers, be they mums, dads, kids or other extended family. The wider group protects the community against the instability of these.

                                              Perhaps dad isn't the most responsible... This could be really bad in a nuclear family only under one roof. If Granda and grandma are there, firstly to give him a piece of their mind and build a stronger opposition and secondly to fill in the gap wherever he screws up.

                                              Yeah, perhaps in some cases its technically better to isolate yourself from "toxic" family members. But thats not always possible and it doesn't guarantee that the child will avoid strife in other places.

                                              In general a strong family and a strong community make up for these things...

                                              [–]Leuku 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Testing testing, 123

                                              [–]Leuku 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Huh... weird. I could send you that testing message, but I still can't send you the response I made.

                                              [–]Christian Atheistnanonanopico 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                              No its not "fucked" and its definitely not beyond repair. The issue is the fundamental selfishness built into our culture as well as some other things. Families are not at fault. How can anyone have a family when they're together at most an hour in the morning and then several hours at night when everyone is at home. Subtract the numerous extra--curriculars kids have, TV time and now the isolation with internet. No wonder people don't have families! We don't see each other! The thing is, we don't think about families when we as a society decide norms around work and other things in our lives. A fatal mistake it will be...

                                              I'm suspicious for this sort of idealized nostalgia. I don't think we can point to a historical time period where these weren't problems. What we know of the nuclear European family structure is largely the product of an exclusive upper-class society. When we look it in practice, it's rarely as stable as it's portrayed.

                                              That's not true at all. Its a natural social system, not some aristocratic fantasy as you suggested. People have been making families for thousands of years. We're not advocating just Mom, Dad and Kids. It would her wonderful if a wider family lived under one roof, just people did before. Having grandparents around or two siblings and their families sharing space would be great! That would be more economical and it would reinforce family values even further!

                                              But that's different, and it's moving beyond the nuclear family as the basic family unit.

                                              EDIT: I'm not sure why you spot on Western kinship in particular. other cultures care as much and even more about who their relatives are. We use different names, but we classify our kin pretty much the same the world round.

                                              Right, but the whole Western understanding of kinship is based on this Derridean binary between 'fictive' and 'true' kinship, and this always plays out where 'true' kinship is always privileged. And the idea that we "classify our kin pretty much the same the world round" is patently false.

                                              They might be amazing friends that you care about more than anyone else in the world, but it still doesn't make them family.

                                              Unless you're going to consider family as "only blood related," and even traditional Western culture doesn't do this (stepparents, siblings-in-law), that's absolute hogwash. 'Family' is a cultural construct. I'm arguing that this construct, especially to the extent which it orbits the nuclear family, is damaging.

                                              And fuck off. You have no idea what my family is like. I could be adopted, for all you know.

                                              [–]Roman CatholicCATHOLIC_EXTREMIST 16ポイント17ポイント  (11子コメント)

                                              Anyone in the West from my generation can tell you that it's fucked up beyond all repair.

                                              As someone from the west from your generation I would not tell someone this.

                                              [–]Christian Atheistnanonanopico 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Okay. I resorted to a literary device to express a point that wasn't literally true.

                                              Of course it's obvious that people disagree with me. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a case worth making.

                                              [–]Roman Catholicredditcyberpunkd 7ポイント8ポイント  (8子コメント)

                                              Me neither. The defeatism is real. Interesting that it's those who have belief who aren't giving up on the traditional family model which has stood for literally thousands of years.

                                              [–]Roman CatholicCATHOLIC_EXTREMIST 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                              Exactly, to me it always seems to be the people that hate the institution of marriage that say we should give them control over it.

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                                                [–]Roman CatholicDEM_DRY_BONES -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                Same.

                                                [–]Roman Catholicdyskutant 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                Your generation and in the West, most of the kids I know of have families that are together.

                                                [–]Christian Atheistnanonanopico 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                Sure. I occupy an atypical social location, and it doesn't hold true for everyone. I'm saying that from my vantage point, and from that of most of my friends, things look pretty bleak for the family.

                                                [–]Roman CatholicDEM_DRY_BONES -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                I would like to say that you are in the minority with that viewpoint, but I have no data one way or another. This is all anecdotal.

                                                [–]Christian Atheistnanonanopico 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                Sure. I'm speaking from my vantage point and experience.

                                                [–]Jagrnght 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                Everytime my extended family comes over for a few days though I'm certainly glad they don't live in my house. Deepa Mehta's Fire is an interesting take on the non nuke

                                                [–]Roman CatholicKaiosama [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                So, so true.

                                                If we really wanted to look at 'traditional families' then that would've included entire societies and tribes and/or kinsmen banding together to raise their young.

                                                It was never meant to be just a mother and a father and that's it.

                                                And this is how it was throughout the entire world regardless of culture or language or religion etc...

                                                [–]United Methodistarbormama 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                I'm saying that the place it occupies in our cultural matrix is fucked, and as long as it occupies that place, it won't be able to be repaired.

                                                Repaired in what way? Repaired by whom? What changes would you make to the "cultural matrix" and how would that strengthen the institution of marriage?

                                                [–]Christian Atheistnanonanopico 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                Well, for example, the Catholic church's doubling down on "traditional" marriage would be an obvious attempt at repairing the problem.

                                                I'm interested in the potential of GLBTQ relationships to provide alternate narratives of family and dethrone the unfortunate primacy of the heteronormative nuclear family.

                                                I think primarily that we're in the middle of seeing this sort of change, actually. As the nuclear family is being dethroned, I think it will slowly recover, but recover to occupy a very different social position.

                                                [–]Gnosticismczeineld 11ポイント12ポイント  (12子コメント)

                                                I'm so sick of talking about this shit all the time in churches. Let's focus on social justice, caring for the poor, and doing what's right. Talking about homosexuals as if they are some sort of extraterrestrial being is sickening. The Pope needs to talk about theology or caring for the poor, not gender roles and the state of sexuality in the world, because as far as I'm concerned -- they are fluid.

                                                EDIT: I even remember him saying that we need to stop focusing on sexuality, but now he is being hypocritical. I want the pope to just ignore it and let the individual churches/governments battle it out because we ALL know which side is going to win in the end.

                                                [–]Orthodox Seekerinput_cords 4ポイント5ポイント  (7子コメント)

                                                because we ALL know which side is going to win in the end.

                                                We do?

                                                [–]JLord 29ポイント30ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                It seems pretty obvious to me. There is no sound basis for opposition to gay rights or gay marriage. The only thing that keeps people fighting against it is tradition and religion. As the older generation dies, policies of equality for gays will become the overwhelming consensus in western democracies and people will look back at the opposition to it in the same way we look at Jim Crow supporters today. Churches would be smart to support gay marriage as a civil right and then if they refuse to have gay people in their church it wouldn't look quite as bad.

                                                [–]TruthWinsInTheEnd 18ポイント19ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                You don't think marriage equality is an inevitability at this point? It won't even be 20 years before those opposing marriage equality are seen exactly as the KKK is seen now. Hell, it already is that way for significant portions of my country (United States).

                                                [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                Yes. the history of humanity is a slow creep towards "better". Punctuated by periods oh "OMFG EVIL HORROR!" (Thats not a Joke. Genocides and mass massacres happen rarely but with grim regularity).

                                                But we have (generally) improved somewhat over the past 2,000 years.

                                                Still far more work needs to be done, than we have achieved so far.

                                                Roll up your sleeves.

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                                                    [–]Downtown_Joe 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                    That's a shame. He'll go and say something progressive and enlightened and compassionate only to turn around and say something like this - only proving just how far we have to go yet.

                                                    Baby steps, I guess. . . . .

                                                    [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    It would all be easier if they untied their ankles.

                                                    [–]corathus59 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                    My family, which is intensely evangelical in all it's affairs, is in it's fourth generation of savage child abuse and molestation. I am thinking the children of my clan might be better off if we gave homosexuality a try...

                                                    [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                    Dear pope Frank, Please use your former training as a scientist(chemist) and read the actual studies on this issue.

                                                    Children raised by LGBT parents do just fine and in some cases are better adjusted.

                                                    I would like to think that someone with a science background would have a better grasp on reality, but the whole "no condoms, no Birth Control, No gay marriage" Thing kinda says "Nope to reality".

                                                    Sigh, At least he's doing better on the environment issue.

                                                    [–]waitforthefactsboy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    Children raised by LGBT parents do just fine and in some cases are better adjusted.

                                                    [citation required]

                                                    [–]Downtown_Joe -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                    The problem is that his institution is a very, very large ship with an exceptional tiny rudder. It's turning, but it will take a while to do so.

                                                    [–]Roman Catholicdiamondeyes18 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                    It's turning, but it will take a while to do so.

                                                    How is it turning at all?

                                                    [–]Roman CatholicStari_tradicionalist 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                    He probably means it will accept every modern fad.

                                                    We both know that it will not.

                                                    [–]Roman Catholicdiamondeyes18 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    Yeah, I get that he is saying that. He doesn't seem to have any examples of the Church "turning" though.

                                                    [–]Roman Catholicredditcyberpunkd 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                    Agreed. Way to go, Pope!

                                                    [–]Orthodox Seekerinput_cords 15ポイント16ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                    Wait, a Roman Catholic, agreeing with the Pope?

                                                    What's this world coming to?

                                                    [–]Eastern OrthodoxPlayOrGetPlayed 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                    Next thing you know a monk on Mount Athos will be praying!

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                                                      [–]Eastern OrthodoxRezamataz 9ポイント10ポイント  (40子コメント)

                                                      That he actually felt the need to say that something so obvious and self-evident is sad

                                                      [–]Atheistnightpanda893 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                      The only thing that is obvious is that it is the position of the Catholic church and they feel it is necessary from a religious perspective. In terms of the objective impact on children and society, it really isn't obvious at all. In fact, there really isn't anything to support that opposite sex couple parents are better than same sex couple parents.

                                                      Actually, there are even example showing that they compare just fine:

                                                      http://www.meerdangewenst.nl/documenten/Mellish-Report.pdf

                                                      http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/14/635/abstract

                                                      [–]salami_inferno 26ポイント27ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                      Obvious to who? Gay marriage has been legal where I live along with them adopting, and surprise, were doing just fine.

                                                      [–]Secular Humanistraluth 27ポイント28ポイント  (10子コメント)

                                                      what is "obvious" to an individual or group has very little to do with what is correct; it was "obvious" that the sun goes around the earth...

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                                                        [–]Roman Catholicdyskutant 11ポイント12ポイント  (9子コメント)

                                                        This is nothing new, remember when the Church had to try to keep people from killing their infants as was the Roman practice?

                                                        [–]UGAShadow[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

                                                        Wheat. Did you just compare the two?

                                                        [–]Roman CatholicCATHOLIC_EXTREMIST 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        Did you just compare the two?

                                                        Ugh, I think he did! I can't even!

                                                        [–]Roman Catholicdyskutant -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        Do I have to tell people every time that I'm not comparing the gravity of two things when I make an analogy? I'm just saying this isn't the first time the Pope has had to state the obvious.

                                                        [–]Eastern Orthodoxloukaspetourkas 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

                                                        Yeah, why should I let this weak child of mine live? Doesn't make sense to feed and clothe this runt. I should probably punish my wife for giving birth to such a pitiful excuse for a child? /s

                                                        Ah yes, the much venerated "civilized" Romans. Like all cultures, they had their "civilized" and "barbaric" practices.

                                                        [–]uberguby 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

                                                        Like all cultures, they had their "civilized" and "barbaric" practices.

                                                        The thing that makes me giggle is barbarian is a word that basically means "Non Roman"

                                                        [–]Eastern Orthodoxloukaspetourkas 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                        Yeah, not the best use of the word...

                                                        [–]uberguby 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        No no no, it's fine. The word means something different now. I just thought it was a giggle is all.

                                                        [–]Rational ChristianGeohump 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                                                        Wrong. the word Barbarian has to do with what was heard when the Romans heard them talking. it sounded like "bar bar bar"

                                                        See John Green, Christian HistorianHere

                                                        [–]Roman CatholicCATHOLIC_EXTREMIST -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                        That he actually felt the need to say that something so obvious and self-evident is sad

                                                        I agree, I guess the need to say such things is a product of our times. That a marriage or a family serves purposes beyond a government-endorsed pat-on-the-back is now a radical notion to the progressing culture.

                                                        [–]Christian (Cross)Deve8 -1ポイント0ポイント  (16子コメント)

                                                        Damn Right.

                                                        [–]Roman CatholicKaiosama 8ポイント9ポイント  (15子コメント)

                                                        I know right. Growing up in a family with two heterosexual parents fighting all the time is way, way more superior than growing up in a family with a loving couple that happens to be the same gender. /s

                                                        Everyone who makes a blanket statement like heterosexual couples are superior really need to experience what people like me grew up with.

                                                        You'd be singing a different tune by the end of the first day.

                                                        [–]Christian (Cross)Deve8 [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

                                                        A gay couple can never be a family, despite what the left wing media portrays. A family can only be made up of a male and a female, everything else is perverse dysfunction.

                                                        [–]Roman CatholicKaiosama [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                        A family can be made up of people who you're not even blood related to. And it can also include a dog, or cat, or any other pet that becomes part of your family.

                                                        If it can include all of those, surely it can include another human being of the same gender.

                                                        Life is not as straightforward as you put it.

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                                                          [–]LDS (Mormon)DurtMacGurt 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                                                          People in Noah's time also didn't listen to him... They thought everything was fine and that their lifestyles were okay

                                                          [–]Roman CatholicKaiosama [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

                                                          People in Noah's time were probably better aware that it doesn't take a man or a woman to raise a child... rather it takes an entire community.

                                                          That's how humanity used to raise children prior to the modern era.

                                                          So commenting on whether two men, or two women, or a man or a woman are better is a moot point regardless of where you land.

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                                                            [–]Episcopalian (Anglican)UncommonPrayer 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            Alternate headline: Man who has never raised children, headed up household, has opinions on family dynamics.

                                                            [–]Leuku 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                                                            Damn, I even tried sending you my response in a pm and it still wouldn't go through. What the heck is wrong with me response!?

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