(cache) r/NiceGuys gets into it over the friendzone. : SubredditDrama


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[–]Mr_TulipI need a beer. [スコア非表示] 2時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]bonjouramigosthe Wayne Newton of SRD [スコア非表示] 39分前* (1子コメント)

Eh.... I had an emotional boyfriend. We cuddled, we held hands, he knew about all my problems, he was the first person I came to whenever anything bothered me. We never even kissed, but he was functionally like a boyfriend other than the sex part.

I was also 15. And an awkward 15 with very little experience with boys so I didn't really get how the tone of our friendship was off until he declared his love for me.

That a mistake on both our parts. I should have treated him more platonically and he shouldn't have waited a year to make a move. It actually ended pretty amicably, neither of us held a grudge, but we were never as close again.

The emotional boyfriend thing isn't total bullshit. I think it happens and I think some people do knowingly encourage it, even though it is bad for the other person. But you also have to take responsibility for yourself and put boundaries down. If 15 year old can do it, so can you.

[–]TheLadyEve [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (7子コメント)

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[–]annelliot [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]_sekhmet_History is long and people love f*cking [スコア非表示] 5分前* (0子コメント)

I think an important part of this whole thing is how girls treat their best friends vs how guys treat their best friends. My best friend and I are very cuddly, hug and kiss, flirty kind of friends, and she is basically as close as I will get to being romantic with another woman.Our relationship is very flirty, and pushes a lot of boundaries into the romantic zone if it were a friendship between a guy and a girl. In my experience of having close friendships with girls, a lot of them get like this. I think a lot of these misunderstandings can come from girls treating guy friends the same way they treat girl friends. When I treated Guy friends this way, it screamed "I want to be more than friends", but with my girl friends, it just said " We are really really close friends and I feel very affectionate towards you". Younger me didn't realize this, and I treated both groups of friends the same way. It wasn't until I was older that I realized, okay, I need to be careful with my guy friends, those relationships have to have different rules.

[–]bitterredi wanna love someone the way kanye loves kanye [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]lurker093287h [スコア非表示] 3時間前* (95子コメント)

^{^{^{^{^~Gulps~}}}}

I think that (from all the past drama about this) in the internet parlance of these things, this ~~is usually~~ Edit: can be used to describe a range of relationship dynamics some which may be worthy of ridicule and some where somebody has a one sided friendship with somebody who they have a crush on and are not imo.

I think this might be similar to non romantic, one sided friendships that I used to have when I was a kid with bossy kids who I just went along with for some reason. I could see how this would be not desirable and draining for somebody who has a crush on someone who they have a relationship like that with.

While the rhetoric might be kind of funny in a sad way I can't help thinking that /r/niceguys and /r/justneckbeardthings are basically the male equivalent of /r/fatpeoplehate (which had majority women as subjects iirc), i.e. just random hate subs for people that the audience regards as 'low status' and with ideas above their station etc.

[–]TheCutestAboardI'm kind of a big deal. [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (3子コメント)

To be sure, there are certainly enough examples of dudes who are only friends with a person because they want to eventually bed them.

I also think there is room for nuance & examination in actual friendships. In the vein of Captain Awkward, I don't think friendships get enough attention as in how to be a friend, how to set boundaries with friends, how to recognize and get away from toxic friendships (both if they're just toxic for you and not necessarily abusive, but also if they're abusive).

Friendships are extremely important for almost everyone ever, and cultivating a healthy friend relationship doesn't get as much love as "find me a girl/boyfriend". Even though many of our friends outlast relationships.

All that to say, I do think there's such a thing as unhealthy friendship dynamics. And those dynamics are not exclusive to any gender.

Putting aside "le friend zone". There exist people who will dump on others a lot. They expect their friends to pick up their emotions often, while not always being there in the same way for others. But as soon as someone expects that to mean a deeper connection even just a deeper friendship connection, the person is baffled as to why they thought sharing emotions would imply wanting a closer relationship. Emotional vampires exist.

And that's just straight up friendship. Add in a person who has romantic feelings, and it gets more complicated.

I honestly feel there should be Friendship, Relationship & Boundary classes in schools. We're expected to figure a lot of this stuff out through trial & error, but I think a little guidance could help a lot of people.

[–]carboncle [スコア非表示] 54分前 (0子コメント)

I think these are all awesome points. Friendship is a lot more difficult and complicated than people give it credit for being, especially when you're growing up.

For example, I watched my sister get into a series of one-sided friendships when we were growing up because she thought a necessary component of being a nice/good person was befriending others, especially the socially awkward. But she wasn't good at setting boundaries, so she'd find herself offering endless emotional support to people who clung onto her, or being there for someone she thought was a friend who was really manipulating her and even outright lying for attention, and it was so exhausting and draining. But until she grew up a bit (and had enough bad experiences), she just had no way of knowing that that wasn't how friendships were supposed to be. I mean, she was constantly praised for being so kind and giving - nobody ever told either of us "good job" for having boundaries.

Luckily my sister had enough genuine emotional support in her life to come out of that without too much bitterness toward other people. But it was a really long slog of learning things the hard way, and I can see how people come out of it a bit messed up if they have enough of the wrong people around. And these were all platonic friendships - add in deep romantic feelings and you amplify everything.

[–]lurker093287h [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]TheCutestAboardI'm kind of a big deal. [スコア非表示] 1分前 (0子コメント)

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERKCaballero Blanco [スコア非表示] 2時間前 (85子コメント)

[–]Mr_TulipI need a beer. [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (6子コメント)

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERKCaballero Blanco [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (5子コメント)

Sure. I think that's a two-pronged issue.

Check out this study.

Homosocial bonding is different between men and women, and this causes a lot of confusion and why it's assumed that men and women cannot be friends.

Men see their friendships as camaraderie, hanging out, occasional complaining, and chilling. There's plenty of support mechanisms in place, but they're not intimate, per se.

Women on the other hand are intimate, affectionate, they talk more about how they feel than how things happened. The support mechanisms are explicitly intimate.

So, men who are not used to intimate physical contact and discourse have to translate a person of the opposite sex being physically and emotionally intimate beyond the boundaries of relationships he is used to.

Women may say that this is really the man's fault for getting his hopes up, but men and women are socially programmed differently.

As the study shows, women share their emotional intimacy through much broader networks. They don't restrain it for that one special person. They give it out freely. They take it in easily.

And also, as the study shows, men reserve their emotional intimacy for one special person. They rely on that person. They hold back until they find someone they can trust and then pour it out to them.

This actually makes male intimacy a far more dear thing than female intimacy. This is why men "overreact." This is why men panic. Above all, this is why the Nice Guy misreads his interactions with a woman he likes.

(fair dues, I'm stealing this from an old post by /u/BZenMojo)

Two, and somewhat related: these young guys have a hard time "expressing their feelings" because they don't yet realize that, for romantic/love/relationship issues, men are supposed to be the ones who approach and pursue and generally make themselves vulnerable first. Note: the Nice Guy/Friendzone thing only happens in young men, who have not quite absorbed that lesson. So this is a gender role thing, too.

[–]Baxiepie [スコア非表示] 56分前 (4子コメント)

Two, and somewhat related: these young guys have a hard time "expressing their feelings" because they don't yet realize that, for romantic/love/relationship issues, men are supposed to be the ones who approach and pursue and generally make themselves vulnerable first. Note: the Nice Guy/Friendzone thing only happens in young men, who have not quite absorbed that lesson. So this is a gender role thing, too.

I totally agree. So many young men don't quite get that there's a middle ground between expressing no interest, and being creepy PUA types. You either see them go all uncomfortably creepy comments or just expressing no interest at all and then wondering why someone doesn't fall into their arms. It takes a while for them to realize that there's an appropriate way to express interest and how to pursue a relationship with someone, not just sit back and hope it happens.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERKCaballero Blanco [スコア非表示] 39分前 (3子コメント)

[–]Baxiepie [スコア非表示] 29分前 (1子コメント)

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERKCaballero Blanco [スコア非表示] 24分前 (0子コメント)

[–]MephistopholeesWay, ay, pop an' flow! [スコア非表示] 27分前 (0子コメント)

[–]DblackRabbitThese Waifus ain't loyal [スコア非表示] 2時間前 (63子コメント)

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERKCaballero Blanco [スコア非表示] 2時間前 (62子コメント)

[–]DblackRabbitThese Waifus ain't loyal [スコア非表示] 2時間前 (61子コメント)

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERKCaballero Blanco [スコア非表示] 2時間前 (57子コメント)

[–]DblackRabbitThese Waifus ain't loyal [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (56子コメント)

[–]TheLadyEve [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERKCaballero Blanco [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (54子コメント)

There are dumb parts of it - unsurprising, considering how fucking long it is - but I like Radicalizing the Romanceless for these discussions.

When I was younger – and I mean from teeanger hood all the way until about three years ago – I was a nice guy. In fact, I’m still a nice guy at heart, I just happen to mysteriously have picked up girlfriends. And I said the same thing as every other nice guy, which is “I am a nice guy, how come girls don’t like me?”

There seems to be some confusion about this, so let me explain what it means, to everyone, for all time.

It does not mean “I am nice in some important cosmic sense, therefore I am entitled to sex with whomever I want.”

It means: “I am a nicer guy than Henry.”

Or to spell it out very carefully, Henry clearly has no trouble with women. He has been married five times and had multiple extra-marital affairs and pre-marital partners, many of whom were well aware of his past domestic violence convictions and knew exactly what they were getting into. Meanwhile, here I was, twenty-five years old, never been on a date in my life, every time I ask someone out I get laughed at, I’m constantly teased and mocked for being a virgin and a nerd whom no one could ever love, starting to develop a serious neurosis about it.

And here I was, tried my best never to be mean to anyone, gave to charity, pursuing a productive career, worked hard to help all of my friends. I didn’t think I deserved to have the prettiest girl in school prostrate herself at my feet. But I did think I deserved to not be doing worse than Henry.

No, I didn’t know Henry at the time. But everyone knows a Henry. Most people know several. Even three years ago, I knew there were Henry-like people – your abusers, your rapists, your bullies – and it wasn’t hard to notice that none of them seemed to be having the crushing loneliness problem I was suffering from.

[–]DblackRabbitThese Waifus ain't loyal [スコア非表示] 1時間前* (7子コメント)

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[–]terminator3456 [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)

That article is like the Magna Carta for Nice Guys.

A few of my main issues with it:

I will eat my fucking hat if the author & Henry were in the same socio-economic class. People are going to be attracted to those who are generally in their own groups - ie suburban kids, urban kids, rural folks, etc. It is highly unlikely the types of women Henry was with are the types he was pining for.
His first anecdote equates the struggles of a poor black man in Detroit to the struggles internet bros have about how tough it is for them to get laid or have a girlfriend. Like, come on, we can have this discussion, but not if you're going to equate it to things like that.
He repeatedly says "these guys are not saying I'm entitled to sex/relationships!" and then drones on & on about "I deserve to be happier than Henry or anyone else ever who's a dick but has had sex/a date/a girlfriend".

So yeah, I am not a fan.

[–]dumnezero🌿 vegan sjw 💀 [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]SpermJackalopego blog about it you fucking nerd [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (37子コメント)

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[–]4thstringer [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (4子コメント)

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[–]lurker093287h [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (2子コメント)

I don't think that is even close to true. There are lots of people who are really smart, have really high IQ's and like to brag about it (the TB copypasta is one obvious example at short hand), I also know lots of really good looking people who know they are really good looking and like to talk about it, this doesn't negate their good looks or intelligence.

I think that lots of actually nice people (and people with other qualities) do appeal to their positive qualities in times when their ego has taken a bruising aswell. I can't help but think that this is a kind of short hand justification for shitting on those guys in some of these internet situations.

I kind of agree that 'nice' is sometimes used as a kind of shorthand for other qualities in these situations though. Traits that are generally not necessary negative like shyness and 'agreeableness' especially when coupled with lack of 'social dominance' etc. These are decently gendered and in mainstream culture are considered very positive (especially when put together) for women in a lot of situations. The trouble comes with them (seemingly) not being positive together for boys/men in quite a lot of places.

[–]DblackRabbitThese Waifus ain't loyal [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]4thstringer [スコア非表示] 42分前 (0子コメント)

[–]lurker093287h [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (5子コメント)

I think that a lot of people/groups have 'acceptable targets' with narratives around them that suspend the audience from having normal degrees of empathy for them. That does confuse me though and I have some suspicions as to why it might be.

I remember coming across that 'radicalising the romanceless' post a couple of months ago and wondering if the popularity of mocking guys like that is connected with the popularity of 'the manosphere' and redpillian ideology in a way where it starts as one of the places where teen guys like that can find empathy for their situation on the internet and ends with alphas and hamsters and plates. I am not sure it's 100% true and think that it might be popular in part because it plays into existing stereotypes and might be telling people what they want to hear in a way.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERKCaballero Blanco [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (4子コメント)

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[–]nowander [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (3子コメント)

I think that (from all the past drama about this) in the internet parlance of these things, this is usually describing a specific relationship dynamic where somebody has like a one sided friendship with somebody who they have a crush on.

I think it might be similar to non romantic, one sided friendships that I used to have when I was a kid with bossy kids who I just went along with for some reason.

Except the freindzone nonsense is gendered. It's never "I had a shitty friend." It's always "I gave friendship to a woman who wouldn't fuck me." I mean, look at the guy in the linked thread.

I'm sure there are people who complain about the friendzone who were strung along by shitty friends. I'm sure that some of the people who complain about 'black crime' actually got mugged by a black guy. But it doesn't mean the concepts have any merit or the people who support them don't have serious problems with women/minorities.

[–]lurker093287h [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (2子コメント)

I agree there is ambiguity and lots of 'friend zone' relationships are can be made up by the 'frienzonee', but (I should've said this but didn't for some reason) the phrase describes a spectrum of relationships some of which are clearly the fault of the 'friendzonee' and some of which they are being exploited with a lot inbetween. We're talking about messy relationships when people are in their teens and early 20s here.

Except the freindzone nonsense is gendered. It's never "I had a shitty friend." It's always "I gave friendship to a woman who wouldn't fuck me." I mean, look at the guy in the linked thread.

I mean this is the rhetoric but I think that at base level those guys are often trying to reconstruct their ego and get rid of their thoughts of the person they have a crush on, it's more like 'I had an unequal relationship with somebody I had a crush on and feel exploited' or something. I don't think it's even that gendered behaviour to do that kind of thing in the back end of that kind of relationship and the generalisations of whole groups of people are clearly unpleasant but common among teenagers I think. I still don't think that it comes close to an excuse for the lack of empathy they get on the internet nowadays in social justice circles.

[–]nowander [スコア非表示] 8分前 (1子コメント)

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FWIW, I had a relationship sort of like that once. I worked with this girl and got to know her that way. We started spending time together outside of work too. Sometimes with other friends, but often just us. It wasn't dating, but there was some underlying attraction there between us.

However we never dated and the attraction definitely switched back and forth. Like, sometimes I was attracted to her but there were no return vibes, and sometimes I could tell she was attracted to me, but I was chasing someone else or just not interested.

We stayed good friends for a long time--basically until we both got job transfers. She started working for a different company and I got promoted and sent 1200 miles away.

We sporadically kept in touch, and remained good enough friends that I felt comfortable inviting her to my wedding reception a few years later. I asked her later why we never got together despite both of us showing interest at one point or another and she told me that she wasn't ready for a serious relationship and she could tell that I was, which was true enough.

And FWIW I've had female friends complain to me about relationships, but I was never interested in relationships with those female friends, so the cliche doesn't really apply.

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[–]Mr_TulipI need a beer. [スコア非表示] 1時間前 (0子コメント)

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[–]beanfiddlernow accepting applications for genocidal lesbian military junta [スコア非表示] 2時間前 (3子コメント)

That's just you, you realize that, right? I have really navel-gazing sexual and emotional conversations with my friends all the time. They're my friends, I've known them for over a decade, why wouldn't I vent to them about the deepest darkest things on my mind? It's not like they're going to get up and not be my friend anymore after over ten years of putting up with my TMI bullshit. And it's not like I'm the only oversharer, everyone I know and make a point of being friends with is like that. I share everything with my fiancee. I share everything with my mom. I share everything with a close circle of a dozen or so friends. That's just what you do when you're comfortable and experience tells you that those people aren't going to judge you, and will also confide in you in return.

I really don't get the point of having friends if you can't reasonably expect to tell them things that you wouldn't tell strangers.

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[–]beanfiddlernow accepting applications for genocidal lesbian military junta [スコア非表示] 11分前 (0子コメント)

I don't know about you, but I've never heard people talk to friends about the kind of stuff these people say they talk about with their crushes.

It's what you said right here. A lot of people don't have that "oh, gotta hold stuff back" filter, even with new friends. Once it becomes apparent that a relationship is moving towards friendship, I've found it's quite common to perform a sort of informal "shit test" in which you just let it all hang loose and talk about whatever the fuck you want. If they don't like it, then you're not friends. If they like it and reciprocate, then you are.

I don't assume someone wants to bone me because we're talking about personal things after hanging out at happy hour three or four times. Is that naive sometimes? Yeah, sure. But I got a goddamn ring on my finger and use "we" in a sentence way too much. I mean, shit, if someone is flirting with me and thinks I'm good to go, they're a dumb fuck.