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It's /r/Planetside all over again: /r/history mod bans critic of Zimbabwe and demands he write an essay to apologize. (i.imgur.com)

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[–]nodeworx 129ポイント130ポイント  (25子コメント)

A popular sub banning somebody for having the 'wrong' opinion. Shocking that. /s

That said, subs like /r/history should be able to discuss history in a thorough and nuanced way. There is absolutely no reason for banning somebody because they don't agree with you or might not have research a certain subject to its most minute details.

Honest, open an nuanced discussion helps everybody learn something, banning somebody for an unpopular opinion in a sub like /r/history leaves everybody dumber.

History is by definition a contentious subject and real scholars of history know how much of written history is propaganda written by victors and dominant cultures. How can you learn anything by making the same mistakes?

A mod in such a subreddit should encourage nuanced debate, especially when the discussion goes beyond the most trite and accepted historical sources. As always it is those who push beyond the edges of what is known that advance human knowledge. Shutting down such a debate even before somebody holding a contrary opinion has the opportunity to provide supporting sources is a deplorable move.

History is messy and ugly and if you are one of the perpetually offended, how do you think you can ever become an effective scholar?

[–]Senbozakura222 51ポイント52ポイント  (10子コメント)

seriously this irks me to no avail about this and it screams revisionists. Anyone who would deny history whether it be good OR bad are beyond ignorant. These people who would us rather bury humanities mistakes fail to realize by doing so will inevitability cause us to repeat it.

that being said still want more context because as is this is relatively bare.

[–]baconatedwaffle [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

That would explain the bizarre thread about Rommel I once read in TIL. It was a total smear job that ran counter to everything I'd heard about the guy in popular culture or read about the man in books written in the 80's, 50's and 60's. Not even Wikipedia mentioned the shit I saw in that thread.

[–]Senbozakura222 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I remember that well. Rommel was a great man even if he was on the wrong side of the war. There was a reason he earned the respect of people like Churchill, Montgomery, and Patton. Rommel hated Hitler and the things had done and that was the very thing that wound up leading to his death after a failed plot against Hitler.

That being said some people still only see him for the uniform he wore and not the deeds he accomplished.

[–]videogameboss 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

These people who would us rather bury humanities mistakes fail to realize by doing so will inevitability cause us to repeat it.

that's the point. ending apartheid made life hellish for white people in africa.

[–]nodeworx 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Per definition history is more subtle and messy than this and any broad statement like this will inevitably be more wrong than correct.

However, it's a hypothesis that should serve as the starting point of what could be an interesting debate as long as everybody remains polite and reasonable, it's not a reason to ban anybody.

[–]marinuso [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

ending apartheid made life hellish for white people in africa.

Are you sure this sentence is one you want to be known for saying?

Apartheid made life hellish for black people and it's not like that's defensible. The problem is more that it has been inverted rather than abolished.

[–]Eladriol [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I mean you could argue that in many ways what has happened after is worse than before in Zimbabwe especially. But yeah it's difficult to argue that ending the concept of apartheid was a mistake, but it's relatively easy to argue that the methods used and the people chosen to take over have been mistakes in some areas.

[–]marinuso [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I agree with that, but 'ending apartheid made life hellish for white people in Africa' really isn't the way to express that position, for several reasons.

Ending apartheid is a good thing, may it happen. Everywhere. Putting Mugabe in power is not a good thing, but Mandela did alright.

[–]videogameboss [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Crime is a prominent issue in South Africa. South Africa has a very high rate of murders, assaults, rapes (adult, child, elderly and infant), and other crimes compared to most countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa

[–]sunnyta [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

funny how you care more about the wellbeing of minorities if they happen to be white

[–]Alucard_V 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[–]cantbebothered67835 22ポイント23ポイント  (6子コメント)

Since lots of people are asking, here's the offending post that got the user banned

https://archive.is/pJMu5

[–]nodeworx 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Disclaimer: I don't know enough about the situation to comment on this statements content one way or the other.

That said, it seems a fairly coherent argument (biased or not) that was being presented and the correct response to this speech should have been more speech not a ban.

Possibly (again I'm not a history buff), this argument has been made and discarded often enough on /r/history that it might warrant pretty immediate dismissal. However, even in that case it would have merited a comment and a warning and a mod pointing out to the author of the offending comment the relevant posts discussing this topic in /r/history's own history.

I don't see any possible reason for banning somebody outright for politely and reasonably presenting an (minority/unpopular) opinion without some very clear reasons for doing so.

All in all I find this fishy as hell and I find that the mod was at best lazy in not giving clear reasons for this ban if they have/had been merited and at worst it's yet again a mod banning people along ideological lines in a sub (especially a sub like this) where ideology in general should be subservient to the goals of the subreddit.

[–]marinuso 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

I like the person who replied to that. Not all is lost apparently, far from it.

OTOH, you couldn't go make a /r/truehistory or something, because that would then be filled by 'rightists' and it would be biased as well, just in the other direction. That's not right either.

[–]dismalinterest [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I mean that's a big if. If the regular sub slants one way and the true sub slants another you just read them both and fill in the blanks

[–]Eladriol [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

what does one taxpayer one vote mean in practise though

[–]Notalent13 32ポイント33ポイント  (4子コメント)

When I saw a topic on South Africa being incredibly over moderated, I knew r/history was lost. Truth is subservient to political correctness.

[–]KosherDensity 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Only under Chairman Pao's regime. Though the cancer was growing before that.

[–]marinuso 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is almost certainly not Pao's doing. Those mods have been there for a while.

[–]rymmen 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, truth has been subservient to politics since forever. We had the Enlightenment, but that basically died in the 60s to be replaced by secular religion.

[–]ShitArchonXPR [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's not the first time. /r/AskHistorians had a thread about mandingo fights. The comment that was entirely PC conjecture and "they didn't have fights, it wouldn't be profitable" was upvoted a lot more than the comment that cited evidence and sources of slaves being forced to fight each other (and plantation owners making decisions for sadism and not profitability).

[–]EnigmaMachinen [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well said- just because someone has an opinion you don't like, doesn't mean it should be censored.

[–]vitaminf 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How dare you question the hero of the soviet union, x4

[–]Eralun 35ポイント36ポイント  (21子コメント)

Considering homosexuality is still illegal and actively attacked by Mugabe you'd think SJW's would be slightly more nuanced over Zimbabwe.

[–]FSMhelpusall 29ポイント30ポイント  (15子コメント)

Hahahahahahhahaha

You must be new here.

[–]Eralun 5ポイント6ポイント  (14子コメント)

Touché, I suppose I was being naive.

[–]FSMhelpusall 10ポイント11ポイント  (9子コメント)

Have you never watched as SJW defend Islam tooth and nail, even the one as practiced in a good part of the Middle East? You know, the countries that push gay people off buildings and stone "adulterous" women, including raped ones?

[–]Eralun 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

You can't criticize other cultures, unless they're white!

[–]a3wagner 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's a vacuous hypothesis! White people have no culture!

[–]Eralun 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, white people have a culture but it's all the same culture, from the U.S to Russia! Stop trying to whitesplain to me mysiogynerd.

[–]Ruzinus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

or Asian.

[–]BurnerNumber3 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Peacefully protesting abortion = Worse than stoning adulterers, duh.

I've spent some time studying Islam, I find it to be a beautiful religion that has certainly provided to the culture of the world; yet everything that the SJWs like to throw their fits about in regards to Christianity is in Islam as well. They, conversely, claim to be for gay rights and women's rights while screeching about the fact most Churches don't allow gay marriages and, in the case of the Catholic Church, female priests. They'll happily target Christian Bakeries to sue for not providing cake for a gay couple's wedding, yet how many of those people would try that crap in a Halal market?

[–]FSMhelpusall 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Look if you're white you have to bay gays a cake

If you're brown you can kill them and we'll pretend we didn't see it

[–]rymmen 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not lately. They seem to have changed on muslims.

[–]TheCid [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Go look at what they have to say about Charlie Hebdo and get back to me on that.

[–]kaotik-weevil 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

You give them far too much credit.

Your average SJW in unable to disseminate more than a single degree of an instance at a time.

For example, they will take an infinitely branching subject such as political corruption, pick absolutely one and only one aspect of that, and will beat the ever loving fuck out of it until they either cry, rage quit the argument, or get you banned for raining on their parade of mostly-bullshit.

[–]thekindlyman555 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's why Twitter is such a perfect medium for them. They have exactly enough characters to make an un-nuanced argument and no more.

[–]Angle_of_the_Dangle [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I still get surprised by the extreme levels of doublethink/hypocrisy displayed by these people.

I don't think you can ever "get used to it" or just accept it as normal. They always seem to one-up themselves every couple of weeks or so.

[–]themanclawNoMcIntosh 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

SJW's and nuance? Good one.

[–]HammableOfCarthage [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think the SJWs should be sent to Zimbabwe. I bet they won't make it out alive.

[–]Steampunk_Moustache [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Non-white cultures are not to be criticized. Only white people can be criticized.

[–]ShitArchonXPR [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That's the thing about SJWs. They don't care about actual human rights or actual marginalized people, just the right to have you arrested for not agreeing with their feels (see: the Canadian "Human Rights" Commission, the hatred SJWs have for ex-Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi-Ali). When Cytherea was raped, Arthur Chu campaigned against raising funds for her.

[–]Twerks4Jesus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

A lot of these straight SJWs are just as homophobic.

[–]guy231 22ポイント23ポイント  (3子コメント)

context

[–]Eralun 12ポイント13ポイント  (2子コメント)

I disagree with the last part of his comment, but him being censored is just....cowardly.

[–]guy231 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

Depends how you parse it.

They were not fighting to preserve minority rule

Preserving minority rule was not their direct goal, but it was the tool they used to achieve their goals.

they were fighting to protect their homes from exactly what is happening in Zimbabwe right now.

They believed that if the militias were put in charge, the new government would seize white property. That belief was well founded and proved accurate.

It seems to me that the disagreement between the user and the mods is 1) whether Mugabe was wrong to seize white-owned property, and 2) whether whites/colonists were justified in perpetuating the oppression of blacks, in the context that the only real alternative was the militias (which turned out to be corrupt and incompetent as fuck).

Like you, I think the mods were wrong to enforce their opinion by banning anyone who disagrees. Would these mods ban anyone who thinks the US government shouldn't turn factories over to Native Americans?

Interestingly the mods here seem to take the opposite position about property rights than SJWs usually take about speech rights. They imply that the native population had natural rights that were violated by settlers, but anti-speech activists usually suggest that rights are a construct of government.

[–]Eralun 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Preserving minority rule was not their direct goal, but it was the tool they used to achieve their goals."

I think that correctly sums up my thoughts on it.

If we allowed the mods their way, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[–]MrPejorative 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ha, I was literally just browsing /r/planetside musing about how quickly internet shitstorms die.

I understand /r/history's sensitivity to revisionist history, but having been born in an occupied country and later living in the country occupying it I'm well aware of how wrong people can interpret even recent events. Telling him to write an essay is just another example of an overreaching mod treating another person like a child. You don't have all the answers. Let him talk. What's the worse that will happen, he'll get a <shock horror> upvote from someone?

[–]bigtallguy 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

context please.

[–]minecraftimous 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

Context please. I know a tad about Rhodesia/Zimbabwe history (connects to history of British empire) and if it is what I think it is, then the /r/History mods are denying the existence of the genocide of white people that happened once Rhodesia/Zimbabwe got independent and that due to the violence and mass destruction of the industries which could have been peacefully handed over to those who, in their eyes, should run the country; the nation has a massive problems with poverty and that the current ruler prevents the cash aid getting to the people who need it.

[–]abrazenleaf 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

Context please, I don't know anything about Rhodesia, how racist it was or what that guy was claiming it was.

[–]340598609345 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's an oddly thorough and unbiased Wikipedia page...if you know the right thing to search for. Don't tell anybody. The main Zimbabwe and Rhodesia pages are already dumbed down and useless.

Linking that would definitely get you banned from r-/-history. There are several thousand more words than "Rhodesia was a racist apartheid state. Period. End of story" in it. Turns out there's a story. History, you might call it.

It's a very interesting series of events—if you're not just trying to spot the villain in it and say "End of story" because "Who's the villain?" is all History really needs to know.

[–]SupremeReader 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

http://www.popularsocialscience.com/2012/10/19/the-fall-of-rhodesia/

[–]theone899 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

Trust but verify:

  1. More context

  2. Honestly, someone got banned for supporting a racist reigime....is that really uncommon among sub-reddits? No, people have been banned for that since reddit first came into conception

[–]Dwavenhobble 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

A comedic Song writer here in the UK called Mitch Benn once wrote a song called "Mr Mugabe" the song was pointing out people will happily defend Mugabe and his actions and in doing so it cheapens the actions of actual liberator like Mandella who didn't turn round and abuse the power they got. The song was essentially mocking people defending Mugabe because of his skin colour rather than condemning him for the actions.

There have been plenty of reports of White Farmers and family having to flee homes as mobs took the farms by force. Mobs of course encouraged and allowed by the government. The problem that happened of course being that people who aren't farmers will have problems farming and did hence a fair bit of food shortages etc.

Admittedly before the racial segregation was disgusting to see happen as well but it's a show of just what some SJWs think. They don't want equality they want to see people pay and people take revenge.

[–]Irvin700 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Aren't history buffs suppose to be as objective as possible? It's not like he was denying the Holocaust.

[–]Notalent13 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd like to see the original post, that said the mods of r/history are very big on revisionist politically correct history, which is part of why I stopped posting there.

[–]KosherDensity 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am a Jew. I give exactly zero fucks when Nazis do their Holohoax shit. Why? Free speech.

Let these people post their ideas then debunk that shit with facts. Except the facts in Rhodesia don't exactly paint the revolution in such nice ways.

They genocided white people in Rhodesia.

[–]BurnerNumber3 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't want to get too much into modern politics but... it's kind of amazing how hypocritical towards Israel so many SJWs are.

Say you had a country in a pretty destabilized region, like, say, Africa. Maybe claim that the land was given to the Tutsis after the genocide inflicted on them by the Hutus. Tell them that in spite of the oppression they faced, they managed to create a fairly successful state with a functioning democracy and enshrined rights for women (with several women even performing combat roles in their military).

Just imagine how viciously and zealously SJWs would rush to defend that country.

Kind of sad, really.

[–]KRosen333More like KRockin' [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Holohoax

that sounds like something futuristic.

"Headline tonight: Holographs for less than 30,000 credits? Think again! Tune in tonight at 9 for the latest on this Holohoax fooling millions."

[–]DwarfGate 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Zimbabwe has an inflation rate of like 3 million percent, what the fuck is there to NOT criticize???

[–]birdboy2000 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Had. They abandoned their own currency in 2009 when they couldn't control hyperinflation.

(And both Zimbabwe and Rhodesia deserve a fuckton of criticism.)

[–]DwarfGate 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's kinda sad when your country's money is so worthless your own economy comes to life to say "I give up."

[–]Tsar_Moose 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Never question the great state of Zimbabwe!

[–]cantbebothered67835 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

REPENT ALL YE WRONGTHINKERS! Ye shall confess thy sins before god and moderator alike!

[–]sailor_moon_irl [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

What's with this "write an essay" crap? Are these disgruntled college professors we're dealing with?

[–]Fireark [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It is actually a very effective tactic. If the person that disagrees with you chooses not to write an essay, then you have quashed all dissenting thought. If they do write the essay, then you have effectively reeducated them.

[–]blahblahblah2314 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

/r/history has always been garbage. It is one of the most heavily censored subs on reddit, and it is all just "a mod doesn't like the facts you are pointing out".

[–]Aurondarklord 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you're a history sub, don't ban someone for posting absurd defenses of racist governments, CORRECT them, bury their erroneous statements in a deluge of historical facts, forcing them to either own up to their mistake, slink away in shame, or pitch a disruptive tantrum actually WORTHY of a ban. Censorship has no place in an academic sub though.

[–]MSMFn1 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

That rhetoric. Holy shit.

"... admitting the errors of your ways, and how you now understand..."

The moral grandstanding, Jesus Fucking Christ.

Edit to add. I believe Rhodesia and its history was one of the more fucked up parts of human history. I'm not going to be a pretentious cunt about it, though, to somebody who *GASP* disagrees with me on that.

[–]redgoldblue [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

idk anything about rhodesia but /r/history is definitely one of the badly and ideologically moderated boards on reddit. if someone has a flawed opinion on something, then the correct thing to do is produce a quality rebuttal, not censor them.

[–]Steampunk_Moustache [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

racist regimes

Like Robert Mugabe's?

Funfact: The one and only black in my highschool was a refugee from Zimbabwe, he told us about how they had killed some of his family because they cooperated with, and defended the white people.

[–]its_never_lupus 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Does this mean the r/history mods are infested with crazy socjus bullies?

[–]Proxy_Droid 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Who are these mods? Failed middle school teachers?

[–]BobMugabe35 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

As that devil should apologize! I for one think it's disgusting that such flagrant disdain for Africans and the support of their subjugation!

[–]KarzanGilgriksson 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Holy fuck. What happened to people being "damned by their words?" Let them speak -- and let the community think less of them if it's stupid/racist. Where the fuck did all these Marxist admins/mods come from?

[–]dickspin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Liberals practicing historical revisionism? Well I'll be damned

What's next, Katyn is all filthy israeli lies?

[–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]AutoModeratorAutomated sealioness[M] -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Your comment contained a link to another subreddit, and has been removed, in accordance with Rule 4.

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    [–]mrlint 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This subreddit link deletion does not comply with SRS standard practice :)

    [–]cha0stat tvam asi [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    That's because we don't take cues from harassment subreddits.

    [–]mnemosyne-0000#BotYourShield 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Archive link for this post: https://archive.is/3KWo5

    I am Mnemosyne, goddess of memory. I remember so you don't have to.

    PM me if you have any questions. #BotYourShield

    [–]rjep2 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Harmful opinions man, consider feels next time.

    [–]TheHat2[M] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    This goes without saying, but don't start shit in /r/history because of this. No vote brigading, no comment brigading, no nothing. We don't want KiA to get banned because people are being stupid.

    That said, we're going to leave this post up for now. If we find out that shit's going down and admins have to get involved, we won't have much of a choice but to take it down. So be smart, please.

    Also, reversing sub bans shouldn't depend on completing a homework assignment, goddammit.

    [–]jpz719 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Admins. Step in. Disallow this horsecrap, and de-mod the twats that do this shit. Banning people for dumb shit is wrong. Blackmailing them into not being banned is worse.

    [–]jeb0r 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    your post has no context and tells one side of the story

    [–]Ghost5410 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    And like last time, demanding he write an essay to prove the mod right to get unbanned is mod power abuse either way.

    [–]AcherosIs fake journalism 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    right, which is how the planetside thing started as well....so, title is accurate.

    [–]GoggleHeadCid -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This really sounds like the kind of shit that went on in China under Mao. Having wrong opinions, being sent off to labor camps and forced to confess to thinking wrong.

    This is not the internet I want.