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Removing harassing subreddits (self.announcements)

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[–]flossdaily 4933ポイント4934ポイント x4 (325子コメント)

This was an incredibly bad business decision for the following reason:

When you were not banning any subreddits, you could make the legal claim that you were an open, public forum, and that you were not liable for the user generated content on the site.

Now, you've taken the step of actively censoring content. Therefore it can argued that ANY significant subreddit that you haven't banned is operating with your knowledge, approval, and cooperation.

So you shut down a subreddit that hates on fat people, but you left up the overtly racist subreddits that made national headlines several months ago?

Mashable, Gawker, Salon, Dailykos, The Independent, etc... are all major publications that over a span of months have called out reddit for allowing racist subreddits to thrive. Their arguments were all moot until today.

This policy would have been a huge legal misstep even if handled appropriately. But this sloppy execution makes the responsible administrators look embarrassingly ignorant or incompetent at best, and overtly racist at worst.

[–]cynoclast 1491ポイント1492ポイント  (71子コメント)

This was an incredibly stupid business decision for the following reason:

Well, she has a history of those:

“We come up with an offer that we think is fair,” Pao said. “If you want more equity, we’ll let you swap a little bit of your cash salary for equity, but we aren’t going to reward people who are better negotiators with more compensation.”

[–]TLATER 421ポイント422ポイント  (26子コメント)

Wait... She's trying to promote gender equality by stating that women are inherently worse at arguing, and should be treated as such?

Well, let's fire all women in high positions then, they can't do their job. How should a female CEO be able to handle negotiations with other companies when she can't argue?

[–]ufopu55y 52ポイント53ポイント  (1子コメント)

How should a female CEO be able to handle negotiations with other companies when she can't argue?

Blame it on patriarchy

[–]cynoclast 127ポイント128ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wait... She's trying to promote gender equality by stating that women are inherently worse at arguing, and should be treated as such?

Pretty much. Hilariously ironic, but totally typical of a SJW who can't reason.

コメントをもっと表示する (23 返事)

    [–]tbk 656ポイント657ポイント  (18子コメント)

    Well that's a good way to keep anyone with experience from working at your company. So instead of training her staff to not discriminate based on gender she's just banning an incredibly common practice that ensures experienced prospective employees feel valued and respected.

    [–]ActualFrenchFag 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Given how bad reddit has been operating they never had talented people there (I still remember their move to AWS, and how they tried to justify it even though it made things measurably worse). That's what you get when you hire hipsters instead of developers. The fact they are losing money on server costs is hilarious.

    [–]motosexuality 13ポイント14ポイント  (13子コメント)

    Eh, if they are upfront with the amount that the job is paying, I would actually find it refreshing.

    I hate negotiating, its time consuming and stressful, especially when you have multiple offers, you gotta like bounce around between them... You often are dealing with an HR manager, and their full time job is negotiating salaries, so it's typically the prospective employee on the back foot. If they continued to lowball like most employers, then yeah, its probably a bad move, but if they bump the salaries and say take it or leave it, doesn't sound too bad to me.

    Especially when you consider that many technical people have limited soft skills.

    [–]TLATER 35ポイント36ポイント  (12子コメント)

    Especially when you consider that many technical people have limited soft skills.

    Well, those people are less desirable... So naturally they will either not be hired at all or be paid less.

    Soft skills are skills, and companies want them. It would be retarded to try and keep them out of the hiring process. Which again is a reason why this is stupid.

    [–]haggholm -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

    If I were hiring engineers, I would want to design my process to favour getting and rewarding the best engineers, not the people who optimally balance engineering and salary negotiation skills.

    [–]ProtoDong 18ポイント19ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes, but the best engineers know they are worth more than other engineers and expect to be paid more. Hence if they are not allowed to ask for more, they won't even bother applying.

    Furthermore the overall message here, "that women are worse at negotiation than men" is condescending to any woman with any self respect. Did Pao negotiate her own salary? I bet she sure as fuck did.

    [–]IVIaskerade 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    She apparently thinks that lawsuits are negotiation.

    [–]TLATER 41ポイント42ポイント  (1子コメント)

    If it were that easy. Sadly engineering involves a lot of communication skills because we are past the age of single-handedly coding Google or the Linux kernel.

    Being good at arguing means you can portray your ideas well, which means your design ideas will be treated as they should be, and you will be a valuable member of a team. If you can't, you might as well be replaced by a robot or a computer script, depending on where you work.

    So your salary negotiation skills are related to your engineering skills. I suppose you aren't hiring engineers?

    [–]F0sh -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Being good at arguing means you can portray your ideas well

    None of this translates to being good at negotiating your salary.

    I am (I believe, and have been told, though that doesn't mean it's necessarily true) a very good communicator. My job involves explaining the most abstract ideas to people not used to them, and the most complicated ideas to people who have never heard anything like them before. But I am not a good negotiator. Thankfully salaries in my field are on a fixed pay scale anyway.

    [–]TexasComments 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Am I the only one who has dealt with hiring before?!

    When you give someone an offer letter that is when salary negotiation takes place. Sure, sometimes you ask someone how much they want to make ball park when they go in, but if you don't know what your skills are worth with sites like GlassDoor and Google giving a literally endless list of choices for comparison you shouldn't be hired on the sole grounds of laziness and gross incompetence.

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        [–][削除されました]  (8子コメント)

        [deleted]

          [–]Magus10112 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

          No, she's too dumb to know what the numbers mean.

          [–]EllenPaoIsHugeCunt 20ポイント21ポイント  (6子コメント)

          She aggressively negotiated her salary while on her knees sucking cock.

          [–]ahayd 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

          This is why the tech recruiters in the Bay Area get you/themselves the big bucks. Engineers aren't great at negotiation, (good) recruiters are.

          They won't care about your gender but they'll care about maximizing your pay (since they're interested!).

          Pao's decision RE pay is sound financially, ...in the short term, in the sense that she'll get cheaper engineers who don't know any better/what they're worth. Honestly, it's the kind of thinking you expect from a VC employee.

          [–]Derangedcorgi 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Men, Pao told the Journal, often negotiate more aggressively than women, leading to higher salaries.

          Pao... 你是白痴了

          Seriously though she's gonna run reddit to the ground.

          [–]Noltonn 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

          That works, if they actually make a fair offer. It's going to be way too easy for them to just offer too little, and all actual talent will fuck off and go somewhere else, and they'll be stuck with the mediocre.

          I'm going to take a wild guess here that this is partly due to the fact that one of the bigger reasons men make more than women is that men tend to be better negotiators? It's speculation, but it's not outside of what Pao has shown us she's willing to do.

          [–]cynoclast 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          She's proven she's a terrible negotiator. But when your husband has just scammed people out of $140 million and you owe like $4 million in legal fees your back is kinda against a wall, so you'll do desperate things.

          [–]durable 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I haven't decided quite yet if I think Ellen Pao is a 21st century Gordon Gecko or not. Couching an end of salary negotiations as 'gender equality' is fucking brilliant, being able to pay new employees less and in turn point towards gender equality as the reason is a great way to shut people up.

          It's also a great way to limit your talent pool, but when you're in business to make money talent isn't always necessary.

          [–]applesandoranges41 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

          wait wait then why does she get paid more than an average worker? maybe she would like it if all employees were paid the same!

          [–]ilikechipss 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Am I the only one on reddit who learned about Ellen Pao today?

          [–]cynoclast 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Judging by the front page of /r/all today, probably not.

          Would you like to know more?

          [–]ilikechipss 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Oh I say. TIL a lot. I call shenanigans!

          [–]McGuineaRI 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Did she get the job as Reddit CEO because of the press she got when trying to get money out of that company that fired her for being useless?

          [–]RedSocks157 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Because fuck you if you have cultivated an ability to negotiate and bargain!

          コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

            [–]JacaByte 172ポイント173ポイント  (27子コメント)

            Bingo, this is why this decision isn't going to last longer than a week.

            [–]bastardblaster 224ポイント225ポイント  (9子コメント)

            Never underestimate stubborn people's ability to double down on stupid.

            [–]Marrz 36ポイント37ポイント  (3子コメント)

            And the moment you think you've made something idiot proof. They just come up with a better idiot.

            [–]hellknight3 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

            nothing is ever fool proof because fools are so ingenious

            [–]TimeZarg 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            "There are two things that are infinite: The universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

            -Albert Einstein

            [–]TheTVTropesGuy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Nothing is fool proof because fools are so ingenius!

            [–]IggyZ 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Reddit (among others) made VALVE undo a change to their system in less than a week because they didn't like it. Don't underestimate the ability for the masses to get fucking pissed.

            [–]bastardblaster 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I assume you're talking about paid mods?

            [–]blue_dreams 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I like this.

            [–]Dracunos 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Yeah.. I do it all the time

            [–]notmy2ndacct 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I'm poor, this is the best I can do

            [–]nothingisworking 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Or it will grow and reddit will become more and more censored.

            Shits fucked yo.

            [–]derp_shrek_9 18ポイント19ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Either the admins will realize this was a bad call and undo it (unlikely) or they will maybe pay attention to their userbase for once and start banning subreddits that are actually worthy of deletion. Like all of the neo-nazi hangouts and racist subreddits, for a start.

            The reddit admins seem eerily quiet about those reddits. Only r/shitniggerssay was culled, there are many more where that came from.

            [–]leshake 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

            If they start expanding the bans, reddit is dead. Not because they ban coontown, but because they will ban subs that are on the fringe.

            コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

              [–]frotc914 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

              No way. Do you really think they did this without being prepared to stick to their guns on the issue?

              They are going to wait out this storm until nobody cares, then they will start banning more subreddits more quickly and quietly.

              [–]JacaByte 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Here's what happened the last time a subreddit got banned. (Remember /r/TheFappening?)

              [–]IneedtoBmyLonsomeTs 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Except the fappening were images that were private, that were then leaked by someone who hacked their phones through wifi or whatever he did. /r/fatpeople hate was mostly images/screenshots taken from facebook/twitter/instagram/tinder/tublr/whatever else and shown and then people made fun of them, if people post thing on the internet they have to understand they are no longer private and up for ridicule. Had they just banned taking photos of people in the street and posting, it would have made more sense.

              [–]frotc914 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              That's kind of my point - /r/thefappening is still gone, people don't care anymore, and they have started banning more subreddits.

              [–]voldin91 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

              We can only hope

              [–]WellHeresMyFourthAcc 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

              It probably will. The two big influencers of reddit- Ellen Pao and Alexis Ohanian- are probably also big supporters of this decision. Ellen for obvious reasons, Alexis (form my viewpoint) because he's also involved in a lot of other communities that are seriously affected by prejudice (the hacker community, for example, has a famously scary M:F ratio). So from their perspectives, this is probably something that "needs to be done"- and I'd also argue that their version of executive privilege blinds them from the issues this creates for ther user and modbase.

              [–]AlSweigart 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I will wager you one Reddit gold that it does. Deal?

              [–][deleted] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I'll take the over.

              [–]kilo4fun 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              /r/jailbait

              コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                [–]banthefreethinkers 146ポイント147ポイント  (17子コメント)

                https://voat.co/ for free speech.

                [–]eat-less 87ポイント88ポイント  (9子コメント)

                I always thought this was a stupid idea until now, I'm literally jumping ship as soon as the server comes back

                [–]vwermisso 17ポイント18ポイント  (4子コメント)

                Its user base is mostly /r/conspiracy and /r/fatpeoplehate refugees. It's literally a worse user base than reddit's defaults.

                It's almost like reddit intentionally bans or inflames really shitty communities so they leave to their competitors in order to kill them off.

                Edit: This is the most controversial reddit post I've ever made lol

                [–]trebory6 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Yes, but I think that you forget that those users we're not only a part of those subreddits. They were a part of a lot of other non-inflamatory subreddits too. So if they go to voat, they can and will start other communities that might not be as bad as /v/conspiracy and /v/fatpeoplehate. Once those communities are established the doors are open for the rest of the levelheaded reddit Community to come in and take root.

                [–]girlbrarian 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                it's brilliant, actually

                [–]Team_Braniel 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                Yeah but that is where you go for hookers and booze.

                Even Australia was started by Briton's convicts, rapists, and degenerates.

                コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                  [–]tdavis25 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  its there, its just straining under the load

                  [–]4GAG_vs_9chan_lolol -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  RemindMe! 2 weeks

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                    コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

                      [–]trecht 39ポイント40ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Hahahaha nice. The admins did a switcheroo on THEMSELVES! Genius. So I guess the admins like cute female corpses, sexy abortions etc etc

                      [–]Travv 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      The Ole reddit switcheroo takes on new meaning

                      [–]TheyKeepOnRising 59ポイント60ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Banning fathate isn't a statement against fathate, its a statement PRO all the remaining hates.

                      [–]Ellen_Pao_is_a_cunt 68ポイント69ポイント  (5子コメント)

                      Why are people giving out gold? It's an insult.

                      [–]I_love_male_butts 46ポイント47ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      Some people are dumping their credits and moving on.

                      [–]4everal0ne 19ポイント20ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Yep. Bought a bunch of creddit and I'm fucking pissed.

                      [–]QuePasaCasa 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      What comments would reddit least want highlighted?

                      [–]flossdaily 31ポイント32ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      To give the post visibility.

                      Also, criticism of a new policy is not necessarily an indictment of the whole site.

                      [–]Hanjobsolo1 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      We should boycott gold purchases on this site.

                      [–]Mattabet 42ポイント43ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      Agree. Free speech is such a great defense. Reddit has gone from being a purveyor of platforms to discuss 'whatever' to the arbiter of which communities are 'harassing' and which are 'not harassing'.

                      A meaningful distinction between which, I am pretty sure, does not exist. And if it did, reddit users certainly wouldn't all agree on the definition.

                      [–]substandardgaussian 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      The distinction does exist. Thing is, harassment of individuals and/or brigading is already a violation of the site TOS, insofar as it involves either posting personal information or causing harm. We can argue whether emotional or psychological harm counts as harm, but I'd say a direct attack against a person can cause fear and beyond that let's just assume it counts for argument's sake.

                      It makes sense to ban users who are harassing, or inciting to harass by posting personal information, etc: etc:. It may also make sense to close entire subs that have demonstrated a communal willingness to violate the TOS by repeatedly harassing or posting personal information.

                      I think the issue at hand is that some claim these subs don't harass individuals (can't check, now that they're gone). Hateful speech != individual harassment, and if reddit starts policing the former rather than enforcing their pre-existing TOS with the latter, that opens a whole can of worms about implicitly acceptable content on reddit.

                      [–]soenske 21ポイント22ポイント  (13子コメント)

                      Pretty confused as to why /r/cutefemalecorpses, /r/sexyabortions and /r/coontown among others haven't been removed yet.

                      Edit: I get it now.... Still extremely disgruntled those subs are still around.

                      [–]krism142 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

                      the first two don't seem like they would be "harassing" people, not sure about the third, never been there

                      [–]swiftb3 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                      You might think it's about anthropomorphic raccoons. You would be wrong.

                      [–]krism142 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      dam it I was so looking forward to all the rocket references...

                      [–]Magus10112 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                      Oh don't worry, when they see fit, the only subs left will be defaults and admin-approved subreddits. The front page (which garners will millions of page views a day) will be bought and sold. Look at the trend of AMAs in the last year compared to 2 or 3 or 4 years before that. They're all reddit controlled now, they have to meet criteria, etc. That's how it'll be to make a NEW subreddit. If you ban everything, only what you want gets out.

                      [–][削除されました]  (3子コメント)

                      [deleted]

                        [–]noPENGSinALASKA 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

                        The future heart disease is an impending genocide...

                        コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

                          [–]kilo4fun 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Why? You can ignore and even block subs.

                          [–]foobar5678 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          /r/FatPeopleHate just got too popular. It occasionally reached the front page on /r/all. This generated bad press for reddit. It's the same reason why /r/CreepShots got banned but /r/CandidFashionPolice is still around. Reddit doesn't give a fuck about harassment OR freedom of speech. All they care about is avoiding negative press.

                          [–]carl_pheromone 34ポイント35ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          you need to be upvoted more. this is the perfect critique of the current situation.

                          [–]Frostmurk 37ポイント38ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Well said. Another reminder that an MBA doesn't equal competence. Although, I bet Reddit's legal representation is ecstatic. Lots of billable hours coming up.

                          [–]Esotericism_77 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          At least until the checks bounce.

                          [–]LexLugerChantSample 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Or, they don't want to be associated with a fat hating sub so they can make more business. This could also be a good decision.

                          [–]allthefoxes 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Sorry, but I don't quite understand this. Reddit had a lot of other policies in place for subreddits. The harassment thing is just that, another policy. What makes this any different?

                          [–]flossdaily 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Reddit guidelines have always been about specific users and specific behaviors which were grounds for banning.

                          Now instead of controlling the method and means of communication, reddit is trying to ban particular content.

                          They say this isn't about banning ideas, but those claims ring hollow when you look at the egregious violations that they are ignoring.

                          [–]IdRatherBeLurking 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          What isn't specific about the bans they handed out?

                          [–]bloodraven42 14ポイント15ポイント  (10子コメント)

                          They've banned subreddits before Pao. It's not new.

                          [–]zomgwtfbbq 43ポイント44ポイント  (7子コメント)

                          IIRC previous bans were based on the legality of the content being questionable. E.g. /r/jailbait

                          [–]bloodraven42 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          The racist sub before coowntown got banned for harassment.

                          Other than that, yeah correct.

                          [–]tbk 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

                          I think some of that is more to do with bad publicity than legality. /r/jailbait was running for years before they thought to shut it down.

                          [–]zomgwtfbbq 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case; I'm just saying the publicly claimed reasoning had to do with legality of content.

                          [–]tbk 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Yeah good point! And I think the legality is a good enough justification for shutting it down.

                          [–]substandardgaussian 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          To be fair, all legal matters boil down to "who noticed?". It's not really fair to say that something wasn't an issue before somebody noticed it wasn't legal. It's not like the mods or the CEO have a spidey-sense about subs that are posting illegal content.

                          [–]tbk 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          It was running for years and incredibly well known. They only got rid of it after major drama and media publicity. It's not like it was some little secret that the admins had no idea about until receiving coverage from big international news sites.

                          [–]superscatman91 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          they banned /r/niggers in july of 2013

                          [–]flossdaily 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          The only one that made waves was /r/jailbait, and no one was going to take a stand on free speech when it could be mistaken for an endorsement of the exploitation of children.

                          [–]bloodraven42 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Unfortunately I saw a few people bringing it up as a free speech issue. Never see the

                          first they came for /r/jailbait

                          speech? Was sad.

                          [–]SaxyTimeReloaded 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Is the reddit ceo fat or something?

                          Edit: I just got banned :(

                          [–]LawHelmet 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          6 hrs late, but this solid fucking analysis. Pao has committed reddit to curating the community.

                          [–]screwdriver67 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Wow great point. They're no longer a service provider and are now a content curator, which has completely different legal protections for all kinds of things like libel and copyright.

                          You can see they're curating the front page right now too, hiding all the threads about this discussion that are clearly the hottest topic right now, even though they still appear on /r/all

                          Wow good luck with the lawsuits to come Pao, we know how well you've handled those in the past.

                          [–]flossdaily 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Yeah, it was pretty jarring that literally all of the top 17 posts on /r/all were about this outrageous move, and the frontpage was totally silent on the topic.

                          [–]HitlerWasADoozy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I'm laughing my ass off now. Fatty wymen admins aren't even smart enough to see this from miles away. How the hell did they not see this?

                          [–]nd4spd1919 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          You've been banned from /r/paoyongyang for the following reason:

                          Failed to create a safe space for diverse peoples, triggering content.

                          찬양 영광스러운 친애하는 지도자 엘렌 파오

                          Praise glorious dear leader Ellen Pao.

                          This message was satire in its entirety.

                          [–]ajsayshello- 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          When you were not banning any subreddits, you could make the legal claim that you were an open, public forum, and that you were not liable for the user generated content on the site. Now, you've taken the step of actively censoring content. Therefore it can argued that ANY significant subreddit that you haven't banned is operating with your knowledge, approval, and cooperation.

                          This is the most intelligent contribution to this conversation that I've seen yet.

                          [–]jackjones2014 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Reddit dun goofed

                          [–]Milkshaketurtle79 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          This is the most decent argument I've heard all day. I hate Pao as much as everyone else, but the circle jerk against her is fucking insane.

                          [–]Wheatspin 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          They really fucked themselves I think. FPH was banned for harassment. If there was any explanation whatsoever as to how they were harassing or who I might be inclined to at least sort of believe them. But there wasn't. So far, the message that reddit is sending to its user base is "if content that hits /r/all is something we don't like, we'll censor it." And we see people reacting that way. A ton of redditors are pissed, and a lot who didn't already think Pao is an incompetent CEO suddenly have a reason to, and if not her then the Admins.

                          Not only is that the image that's created, but now they've placed a burden on themselves of setting standards and facing backlash when they don't meet them. Why is FPH banned for harassment, but SRS who's users regular leak from their sub to the posts they link (not using a NP link I might add) without repercussion not? Why are the horrifying subs that everyone references still up but suddenly we're not allowed to make fun of fat people?

                          I'll tell you why. Because FPH hits /r/all and the others don't. The other 4 they banned? Most likely inactive subs used as a smokescreen.

                          But they claim harassment and so now they have to deal with the backlash of not banning other subreddits that harass. They set a precedent and immediately broke it.

                          Also the FPH ban reason has some bit about "safe spaces" in there if you go to the page. As if that subreddit appearing on my phone / computer screen put me or anyone else in danger.

                          [–]Dzhone 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I think you make the best point. Either filter us, or don't do shit at all. It just makes sense. What they're doing is playing favorites and that isn't right at all.

                          [–]ManWhoKilledHitler 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          That's a really good point.

                          My understanding of safe harbour legislation was that you weren't found to be liable for content provided you took measures to remove things once notified. Pre-emptive removal is risky because anything you leave is then implied to have been reviewed and approved which opens you up to legal action as a publisher rather than a mere host.

                          [–]kakozlow 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I 100% agree. As a librarian my entire schooling and career has about free speech and not censoring things. Actively censoring something that might be offensive to some is taking away free speech. /r/fatpeoplehate is offensive, but it's not obscene. Next subs like /r/birthcontrol could be banned. That might be an exaggeration but I know there are people out there who are against birth control...so ban it? It's really unfortunate that this is happening.

                          [–]CobbITGuy 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          You think that wasn't intentional? Next they will come out with a statement that they have a legal and moral obligation to ban these subreddits.

                          [–]Betawayed 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

                          lol, its not a "legal misstep"

                          like lets say the reddit leadership has outed themselves as nigger haters and fat lovers with this move

                          what legal troubles are they on the hook for?

                          this post is one of the dumbest fucking things i've read all day

                          [–]flossdaily 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

                          lol, its not a "legal misstep"

                          It really, really is.

                          what legal troubles are they on the hook for?

                          Well, let's say some racists use one of the racist subreddits to organize a hate crime... the victim of the crime would have a fantastic lawsuit against reddit for knowingly providing a forum that enabled hateful people to assemble and organize. Because reddit actively moderates it's subreddits, they were negligent or complacent in allowing the hateful subreddit to exist.

                          This is doubly true after this mess of a thread where dozens of users have listed the most notorious hateful subreddits.

                          [–]Betawayed 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

                          Well, let's say some racists use one of the racist subreddits to organize a hate crime... the victim of the crime would have a fantastic lawsuit against reddit for knowingly providing a forum that enabled hateful people to assemble and organize. Because reddit actively moderates it's subreddits, they were negligent or complacent in allowing the hateful subreddit to exist.

                          if reddit was used to organize a hatecrime they would be on the hook regardless of if they banned any subs or no subs

                          why do you think doxxing and witchhunting rules have always been taken so seriously by the admins?

                          this "legal misstep" stuff is retarded blathering by stupid kids who have 0 idea what they're talking about

                          [–]synthetic_sound 0ポイント1ポイント  (6子コメント)

                          Those subs were banned not because of the idea behind them, but because the users were actively going outside the subs and relentlessly torturing other users, harassing them, and just generally being cruel. That's the difference; the admins aren't policing content (provided it's not illegal) - they are enforcing a policy which doesn't allow for people in a sub to consistently go out and look for victims on the site that they then harass and remain unbelievably cruel to. What you're talking about is completely different.

                          [–]flossdaily 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Those subs were banned not because of the idea behind them, but because the users were actively going outside the subs and relentlessly torturing other users, harassing them, and just generally being cruel.

                          All the racist subreddits, and the ones that celebrate dead children are deliberately inflicting emotional pain on groups of individuals and the families of victims.

                          The nature of the forum itself allows hateful people to congregate and focus their hatred at specific targets.

                          [–]IdRatherBeLurking 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          That's not varifiable- brigadier is.

                          [–]poop-joke 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          It still feels odd. If brigading is the real issue, I feel like subredditdrama, shitredditsays or hailcorporate would be worse offenders than FPH. And, there are alternative ways to work with the community than banning the subreddit outright. Focusing the problem on harassment isn't being completely honest.

                          [–]synthetic_sound 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Brigading isn't the issue. They were harassing people by msging them awful emails all the time, and posting replies to their comments left in other subreddits, in an obvious attempt to stir things up. FPH was stealing photos of people who had posted them in /r/keto, and creating these massive threads of thousands of people saying the worst possible things you could say to another person about whoever it was in the photo, and then they made sure that the person whose photo it was made it over there to see the thread. That's awful and unnecessarily cruel.o

                          [–]poop-joke 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          If that's true, then good riddance. I've never seen it, but I'd be interested if you have any evidence of this. However, after reading /u/leelem0n's blog post, I don't believe what you wrote is accurate.

                          [–]synthetic_sound 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Its nearly 5 am here, and Im on my mobile, but Ill be happy to look it up and post it after I get a couple hours sleep. Ill read the blog post you posted at that

                          [–]cook_that_shit 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          couldn't have said it better myself. i wonder what will replace reddit

                          [–]stevenxdavis 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          It's a bad business decision because reddit's competitive advantage has always been open discussion. Being a "safe space" isn't competitive because most of the Internet is safe spaces. If reddit is going to be a pro-censorship site, it no longer has any competitive edge over other social media sites that screen content but have more functionality. It's instagram without photographs, tumblr without graphics, facebook without friends, twitter without celebrities, and google+ without hangouts. Without open discussion, reddit is a dud.

                          [–]lilmookie 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          This is a really interesting angle, thank you.

                          [–]ShitlerParty 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Ellen Pao and her compatriots are fucking idiots.

                          [–]EatATaco 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

                          I don't believe you are right. The federal law is that websites that allow public comment are free to moderate or not moderate as they see fit, without fear of litigation.

                          [–]goingdiving 3ポイント4ポイント  (4子コメント)

                          Not exactly true, the telecommunications act only exempts providers that don't edit content, once you start editing content you become liable for not timely removal of offending content.

                          Obviously IP content is always unlawful (thank you RIAA/MPAA)

                          [–]EatATaco 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          IANAL, but I think it is fairly clear from 47 U.S. Code § 230 section c, which states that the company hosting it is neither considered the author nor liable for their "good faith" filtering of content, that they cannot be help liable for either what they do filter, or what they don't.

                          I could totally be wrong and if you have something that demonstrates this, I would love to hear it. But I'm not expecting any successful challenges against Reddit based.

                          [–]flossdaily 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          The key thing to remember is that there are ways that liability can be found without the presumption that reddit is author of the user-generated content.

                          [–]EatATaco 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          The key thing to remember is that there are ways that liability can be found without the presumption that reddit is author of the user-generated content.

                          You are going to have to be more specific.

                          It seems to me that, according to the law and all of the analysis I've read of the law, that they are free to moderate the content posted to their servers as they see fit, and be free from liability when doing so or not doing so. If they aren't viewed as the author of the comments, they can't be sued for the comments. If they are free to moderate the comments without risk of liability, then they can't be held liable for how they filter. So what, exactly, are you talking about?

                          [–]flossdaily 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Sure...

                          So, if a random user posts a defamatory comment on reddit, like "John Doe has a loathsome sexually transmitted disease, and exposes himself to minors"... then the random user can be sued by John Doe for defamation, whereas reddit cannot. The law says reddit cannot be assumed to be the author of the words.

                          However, if a bunch of white supremacists all got together and used /r/coontown as an open forum to plan a hate crime, then reddit's liability issues have nothing to do with being held responsible for the speech. Their liability would hinge on reddit's action in providing the forum, or negligence in failing to censor the forum. Whether reddit legally authored the words is irrelevant, and so that particular immunity is irrelevant.

                          [–]innocuousspeculation 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Wonder when they'll start removing subreddits about illegal activities, like the various drug subreddits.

                          [–]goingdiving 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          The legal defence disappeared pretty much at the same time Reddit approved of moderators, banning subreddits won't change Reddits legal vulnerability over the question.

                          What is futile though is the actual banning of subreddits, Reddit has a free for all function in creating subreddits so a banning does pretty much nothing as can be seen in the rapid creation of /r/fatpeoplehate2

                          Funnily enough, the same cycle was seen in Sweden during censorship years where newspapers were banned one day and re issued under a slightly different name the next day.

                          Unless Reddit starts to make new reddits based on admin pre approval these closing of subreddits are pretty pointless. So look forward to Reddit just doing this once, or a declaration of an approval process for new subreddits.

                          [–]flossdaily 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          User moderators are not the same as employee moderators.

                          [–]goingdiving 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Doesn't have to be, they have been given rights to moderate content by Reddit

                          [–]flossdaily 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Automatically, and without a reddit employee ever laying eyes on the content.

                          [–]Troybarns 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I was just annoyed that they are starting censorship in general, and the fact that it will likely end up going overboard, if it hasn't already. You made some really good points though.

                          I figured the way they would counter my argument is by saying it's a "good business decision" or some such, as offensive subreddits are bad for business or whatever. You just completely destroyed that argument though. Hopefully they have the balls to reverse this and admit they were wrong.

                          [–]recently_resurrected 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          They have not banned any specific content whatsoever. They banned certain subs for harassment. It sounds like these communities are free to reorganize and this kind of content will continue to be allowed as long as harassment isn't involved.

                          [–]bumbuff 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Except that, just like in the judicial system, historical actions are brought up during examinations. Journalists can use the actions taken today and apply them to other subs with SIMILAR albeit not quite the same type of subs.

                          [–]Eqqo 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          This is not the first time they banned subreddits, though.

                          [–]flossdaily 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          True. But this is the first time they announced an ongoing policy of policing and censoring.

                          [–]creepy_doll 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Actually this isn't the first time. As distasteful as the sub may have been, they closed down jailbait before. As far as I'm aware it was legal content, just... pretty borderline. I believe they took down some others too and made a policy decision about it.

                          So really, they've been on the hook for all their content since then. They've gotten by ok because in the end of the day they say "hey, we're pro free-speech but that's just wrong" and anyone that would speak otherwise would clearly be a hateful individual and/or pervert. And I don't really see that changing either.

                          I'm pretty sure these things are kind of cyclical. Site/company starts out very free/idealistic, as they gain popularity and become mainstream they conform to the mainstream, the early adopters move to a different site, and the circle repeats. The sites don't suddenly die out afterwards either. Reddit will stick around for a long time yet.

                          [–]flossdaily 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          The difference is that no one was going to make a free speech argument over /r/jailbait, for fear that they would appear to be endorsing child exploitation.

                          I don't even think that censorship is the core issue here. I think the reaction would have been very different if reddit had announced it was killing all hate-based subreddits.

                          The thing that is really irking people is the apparent arbitrariness of attacking this one subreddit (and the 4 inconsequential ones as cover).

                          What everyone is reacting to is the admins flaunting their power to enforce their particular preferences. It is a clear message to the users that this site does not belong to the masses.

                          The much smarter way to have approached this issue would have been to put the issue to a vote in the reddit community, and have the community at large choose which subreddits were harmful to reddit's commercial success.

                          [–]creepy_doll 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Honestly, I don't think this is going to hurt reddit.

                          I mean, I'm disappointed in the arbitrariness and all.

                          But in the end, reddit is mainstream now, and most of the users don't care about this stuff and are more interested in their own little corner of reddit than they are the whole.

                          When you say "everyone", it really isn't as many people as you might think. I'm guessing most of the downvotes on admin posts are coming from former FPH posters. I think most people that never read the sub are at most, disappointed.

                          [–]topagae 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Christ, am I gonna have to abandon this like I did Digg? What's after Reddit?

                          [–]wazzup987 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          voat

                          [–]topagae 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Awesome, made an account, we'll see if this place is a ghost town in a couple months

                          [–]Greedeater 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I would buy you gold, but I ain't supporting this site anymore. Adblock flicks on too.

                          [–]og_sandiego 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          good....no, GREAT points.

                          where does reddit evolve or devolve from here?

                          [–]magicwhistle 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          This comment is the best one in this whole (ridiculous) thread. I don't like assholes on Reddit either, but this was an incredibly shortsighted decision. They should have just kept their hands clean.

                          [–]chefkoolaid 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          theys about to get fucked by r/dnms then

                          [–]AlSweigart 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          It's worth giving the links a read, especially the "What about other subreddits?" and Harassment vs. brigading ones. It answers the question you asked. A subreddit isn't banned for offensive content, but because it's being used to organize harassment:

                          When we are using the word "harass", we're not talking about "being annoying" or vote manipulation or anything. We're talking about men and women whose lives are being affected and worry for their safety every day, because people from a certain community on reddit have decided to actually threaten them, online and off, every day. When you've had to talk to as many victims of it as we have, you'd understand that a brigade from one subreddit to another is miles away from the harassment we don't want being generated on our site.

                          [–]just_a_quantum_dot 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          You know, there's quite some merit to this idea. Reddit: where a (supposedly, but not really; the rules and mods were quite strict) harassing subreddit gets banned, but /r/nationalsocialism has the tacit approval of the higher ups. In a particularly nice twist, the fucking nazis have a sidebar post about opposing censorship.

                          Welcome to the new reddit: /r/fatpeoplehate = bad! /r/nationalsocialism = good!

                          Someone should really compile a list of lovely subreddits the Great Leader ostensibly approves of..

                          [–]Q631FvrIC9AevYGZ9yjt 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Get rid of all subreddits, like the early days of reddit. Then ban reddit.

                          [–]ActualFrenchFag -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          reddit has never made money and will never make money, I don't think they understand what a "business decision" is. Unless the objective is to sell to dumber investors.

                          [–]Skrapion 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          I suspect Imgur forced their hand. Imgur started pulling all images linked from FPH, so FPH posted a banner in their sidebar of the Imgur staff. It's not a huge leap to imagine Imgur contacted Reddit saying "Hey, if you don't do something about this, we'll get rid of those 'discuss this image on Reddit' links."

                          [–]flossdaily 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          If imgur had done that, I image they world change their tune if Reddit threatened to start its own native image hosting.

                          [–]icallshenannigans 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Also a bad decision because: no one gives a shit about your ideology.

                          [–]rox0r 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Therefore it can argued that ANY significant subreddit that you haven't banned is operating with your knowledge, approval, and cooperation.

                          Just because something can be argued doesn't mean it has any merit. Am I allowed to speed in my car because some speeders don't get tickets? Try that defense in court. Reddit censors illegal stuff all of the time -- it doesn't mean that everything they haven't censored is legal.

                          [–]flossdaily 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Just because something can be argued doesn't mean it has any merit.

                          That's the bitch of it, though. This argument does have merit.

                          the reddit admins are well aware of /r/coontown, which made national headlines as being a safe place for racists to gather on reddit. They are making a conscious choice to leave it up. It cannot possibly be mistaken for an oversight.

                          [–]rox0r 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          There are a two big conspiracy arguments going around here that aren't compatible:

                          1. Reddit is monetizing so it needs to shut down offensive subs so advertizes will spend money. (but they are leaving these other subs up?)
                          2. They are just picking on fph arbitrarily but somehow it's a slippery slope. (it's not very slippery if they leave other subs up.)

                          it can argued that ANY significant subreddit that you haven't banned is operating with your knowledge, approval, and cooperation.

                          This could be true of fph if they hadn't banned it at well. They knew about fph for a long time. Knowing about it isn't the same as approval. It has to break the rules.

                          [–]avenlanzer 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          This was an incredibly bad business decision

                          Says the guy who just got gold on that comment. I've seen more gold in this thread than any other, and all on people saying they want to jump ship and no linger support reddit.

                          [–]flossdaily 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          A couple thousand bucks of gold purchases is not worth the user exodus, increased liability, and decrease in user sentiment.

                          [–]palfas 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Yep, time for some lawsuits

                          [–]VengefulCaptain 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Considering how much gold was given in this thread they might have done ok...

                          [–]danheskett2 -3ポイント-2ポイント  (13子コメント)

                          Look buddy, you may think you know what you are talking about, but the CEO of Reddit is a widely known business women, who has been a partner at a major investing powerhouse, has extensive practical courthouse experience, and knows the in's and out's of the hardscrabble corporate landscape, from many difference angles.

                          EDIT: /s?

                          [–]Squirmin 36ポイント37ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Losing court cases is a form of experience, I guess. And it's an excellent business decision to sue for the exact amounts your husband is being fined for defrauding people.

                          [–]Charlemagne_III 7ポイント8ポイント  (6子コメント)

                          You're right, there are some people who simply can't make mistakes.

                          [–]danheskett2 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

                          I guess my sense of sarcasm is too finely tuned. Sorry!

                          [–]Charlemagne_III 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

                          Were you also using sarcasm?

                          [–]danheskett2 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          Yes, I was trying to. I am just not very good at it!

                          [–]trecht 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Add a /s, most people are missing it :)

                          [–]Charlemagne_III 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          No, you were just too good and tricked me, good one.

                          [–]barrelsmasher 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          I feel bad for downvoting originally. Here's two upvotes.

                          [–]JDawgSabronas 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Sorry buddy, your /s tag came in too late.

                          [–]danheskett2 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          Learned an important lesson on my first day of reddit. Oh well. Next time I'll know.

                          [–]JDawgSabronas 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          LOL welcome to the shitshow! ;)

                          [–]Rjaultman 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          So what you are trying to say is the Pao is actually several women? She's just one big megazord of stupid business decisions?

                          [–]BilgeXA 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

                          I doubt you're correct about any of that. Reddit has a legal department. Even their current CEO is a lawyer.

                          [–]stolivodka_ -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Yep. It's game over for Reddit.

                          Too bad Voat is a piece of garbage. I'm sure that someone is furiously coding Reddit's successor, as we sit here.

                          [–]kentbrockmanreportin -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

                          Sounds like somebody read an article about internet publishing from the 1990's. Congratulations. It's cute that you think you know more about this than reddit's legal counsel and the reddit CEO who has a Harvard law degree, but you don't.

                          [–]flossdaily 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

                          I've also got a law degree. Not from Harvard, though. It brings shame to my family.

                          [–]kentbrockmanreportin -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          And do you think you spent more time thinking about this than reddit's CEO and legal counsel, or less? Hint: they spent more than 30 seconds thinking about it.

                          [–]GldRush98 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          Stop acting like this is the first time Reddit has banned shitty subs. It's not. And it won't be the last.

                          [–]GravyBus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

                          This was an incredibly stupid business decision

                          I dunno, your comment alone already made em $3.99. This thread has been a reddit gold mine.

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