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[–]BarneyBent [スコア非表示]  (26子コメント)

Could maybe argue for the Mongols under Genghis Khan? There was no real central religion, they were tolerant of (even encouraging) multiple religions. So in that sense, they were secular, even if religion played a fairly large part in their society.

[–]QuouarQuite the arrogant one. [スコア非表示]  (6子コメント)

While it may not be as large or structured as, say, Christianity, the Mongols did practice Tengriism, a belief structure from Central Asia. The fact that they were tolerant of other religions does not mean they didn't practice their own.

[–]Numendil [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

IIRC their belief system is very much tied to the land they come from, so they didn't expect others to follow it.

[–]QuouarQuite the arrogant one. [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Very true, but that doesn't make it any less of a religion.

[–]Numendil [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

oh, I wasn't arguing that it wasn't a religion. Just mixing it up a bit with the terminology.

[–]heateanapple[S] [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Hey, that's really interesting! I have never even considered that. Thanks a lot, I am interested to read a little into it!

[–]BarneyBent [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yeah, I'm no historian so others may feel like correcting me, but I'm pretty sure while Genghis himself adhered to a form of shamanism or Tengriism, there were prominent Buddhists, Muslims, Christians and others. It was pretty much a free for all.

[–]HoboWithAGun [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

While listening to Hardcore History, Dan said that the logic behind this was that it made sense to have people pray to all the gods before war so that they had all their bases covered. Seemed to work :P

[–]heimaey [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

The Romans were also very tolerant of various religions and cults. If a religion was not tolerated there was usually a political reason behind it not religious zeal or fervor.

[–]RonPossible [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

In most cases they could equate local gods with the official pantheon (Woden=Mercury, etc), so differing religions was not a problem. You were ok as long as you honored the state gods. To refuse was seen as treason because it endangered the welfare of the state (or so they believed). This led to some rocky relations with the Jews as they refused to sacrifice to the state gods. Caesar began, and Augustus continued, special laws exempting the Jews from that duty. They Jews objected to the emperor's face on the coinage, so the Romans issued special coins in Judea that lacked human images, until Vespasian anyway.

The other cult that Rome could not tolerate was the Druidic human sacrifices. They went to great lengths to eradicate them. The Druids were also a point for resistance to rally around, and that certainly had a part in the Roman decision.

[–]heimaey [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah the Jews were pretty unique in the history of Rome. Vespian and Titus burned down the temple and much of Jerusalem and then the whole diaspora. But the Romans later aped the monotheism model from them - even though I don't personally view Christianity as a true monotheistic religion.

[–]ApolloLEM [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The impression I sometimes get is that Roman religion was mostly politics. Instead of a State Religion, they had something of a Religion of State.

[–]Historyguy81archaeologist of new, week 23 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Genghis Khan declared himself a god.

[–]ApolloLEM [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I suppose I may have as well, given the circumstances.

I wonder to what degree declaring yourself a god would tend to discourage fundamentalism. While not exactly secular, having a corporeal, interactive deity would take some of the faith-related conflict out of the equation, right?

[–]zombie_girraffe [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

The pattern of great leaders declaring themselves to be gods or descended from gods all over the world makes me feel that the distinction between God's and men was much more fluid and ambiguous in the ancient world than the modern.

[–]Historyguy81archaeologist of new, week 23 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Well, the god of Abraham is a hard act to follow. Think of many gods before the god of Abraham, like Odin, Isis, Marduk, Aries, Venus, etc. They are all very anthropomorphic either in shape or in mentality. It isn't a stretch to believe that the guy in front of you might actually be a god.

But when we get to the god of Abraham whose followers declare that he is beyond anything we can ever really know, he really set a new bar for being a god. I mean, he is the only god we capitalize because the guy never tells us his name, only his Titles, such as YHWH or Allah ("I am" and "The God", respectively). Even Stargate SG1 did a nod to this when one of their Goual'd enemies refused to share his name (until later seasons anyways).

The closest anyone in the Abrahamic faiths got to being a god was Jesus who was elevated a century after he died.

[–]Historyguy81archaeologist of new, week 23 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I wonder to what degree declaring yourself a god would tend to discourage fundamentalism.

If I chose to do it, I would do it to ENCOURAGE fundamentalism. It would get people to follow me blindly rather than question things that I am doing.

"Why are you doing this?"

"SHUT UP! I AM A GOD! DON'T QUESTION ME!"

While not exactly secular, having a corporeal, interactive deity would take some of the faith-related conflict out of the equation, right?

Most gods were interactive until the spread of the Abrahmic faiths.

[–]xaphoo [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They were quite religious. The letters they sent to other leaders were filled with religious language.

The question of tolerance is something else.

[–]maetik [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Whilst it's true the early Mongol Empire (when the Mongols predominately followed Tengrism) was usually pretty tolerant, especially under Genghis Khan and Ogedei. But it's important to remember the united Empire was very short lived, and for most of the Mongols existence they were ruled under separate khanates.

For instance, the Golden Horde did adopt Islam as a state religion in 1313 under the Khagan Oz-Beg, and after a bloody few years it became the mainstream. In the 1500s under the Mongol Yuan Dynasty (which includes the Mongol heartlands) Altan Khan favoured Tibetan Buddhism over the Tengri, and actually granted the Dalai Lama his title.

Three of the four states ended up embracing Islam, the fourth Buddhism as they adapted to rule over the non-Mongol population more efficiently, and that did lead to a more intolerant society. They were very pragmatic warlords who used religion to their advantage, the same as everyone else.

Ed: Reordered sentence to make sense.

[–]zikovskisvkr [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

before their emperor kazan became muslim & a large portion of them followed him ,they prayed to the sun.

[–]MistaSmiles [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They cared not for the petty gods of their conquered people on earth, for their god was the sky who watched over them all

[–]TerrancePowderly [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

OP, I would go with this one. The Mongols under Genghis Khan were pretty much tolerant of other religions as long as they collaborated. They pretty much cared about expanding.