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An interesting inconsistency I noticed regarding some anti-abortion arguments: (self.childfree)

facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens が 投稿

There are attempts to get legislation passed that would prevent abortions after twenty weeks because the fetus is supposedly capable of feeling pain (though the science on that is dubious). The problem with this argument (aside from the fact that any person born without congenital analgesia, which is dangerous in itself, will feel pain) is that many people opposed to abortions do not see anything wrong with having babies circumcised without anesthetics. If babies that have already been born are considered to be too young to remember the pain of a circumcision, then what problem would there be with an abortion that caused pain to the fetus (if it even did), especially since the fetus won't remember it (since it will be, you know, dead)?

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[–]choomaroomy satchel contains nary a child 18ポイント19ポイント  (5子コメント)

I went from a raving pro-life demonstrator to very pro-choice. This is due, largely, to a lot of self-examination. Part of that was realizing that those around me were not pro-life but pro-punishing-women-for-having-sex. So, to me, any stance is just window-dressing around a deeper political push.

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I also went from pro-life to pro-choice, though it was as a result of a debate class I took. I was doing research to support my position and ended up realizing fetuses are literally cancers that women should be free to have removed. It was later that I went from being pro-choice to pro-abortion.

[–]ifuckedyourbf_ 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good on you for having that capacity to change your mind like that. If only more pro-lifers were as open-minded.

[–]InnesCognito 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's gutsy to make a change like that. Was there any particular event that caused you to change your opinion?

[–]choomaroomy satchel contains nary a child 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks, although I wouldn't consider it gutsy. I'm a CF dude so the only gutsy thing is probably having an opinion on something that doesn't directly affect me at all.

No particular event; although I think the latter half of college and then moving far away from home after graduating for my first job both played a large part.... time away from old influences and a chance to grow personally.

[–]Boraggle 28ポイント29ポイント  (3子コメント)

"If you're pre-born you're fine. If you're pre-school you're fucked."

  • George Carlin

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 26ポイント27ポイント  (2子コメント)

Especially if you're a Duggar.

[–]RighteousKarmaI love kids, I just can't eat a whole one. 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

Damn son, that's dark. (I approve.)

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dark humor is like food: Some people don't get it.

[–]eleshnorn1 54ポイント55ポイント  (3子コメント)

Oh no, see it doesn't matter what happens to the baby after it's born. The point is that it's a soul and it was born, after it comes out of the womb whether or not it has a loving family, food, shelter or basic health care are all total non-issues to the point.

please note this is a tongue in cheek comment

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course, most denominations of Christianity believe that fetuses that die go to Heaven automatically, so they really shouldn't be opposed to abortion. Actually, since increasing numbers of people are turning away from Christianity, they should be encouraging people to have as many abortions as possible (which means the stubborn ones will still oppose sterilization attempts).

[–]the_longest_shadow 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm all for life Until the bastard's born After that He's out on his own And if he does crime Trying to survive I'll make damn sure He gets electrified

[–]screaminatthemoon 19ポイント20ポイント  (4子コメント)

Except the clear reason for these pain-based abortion bans is not about "pain" for the fetus but to keep women from aborting. Pain is just the marketing-speak word that the politicians think will keep pro-choicers quiet because no one wants a "baby" to feel pain. It's all word games designed to subjugate women.

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm quite aware of this, and I find fallacies to be particularly annoying, especially considering how effective they are. Cognitive dissonance and other cognitive biases are, in my opinion, pretty big flaws in the human brain.

[–]Thornnuminous42/F/Fed my 'clock' to Captain Hook's Crocodile 19ポイント20ポイント  (11子コメント)

That is a very good point! I hadn't thought of it like that.

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 21ポイント22ポイント  (10子コメント)

I mentioned it to a friend of mine and he asked me: "You mean Jewish opponents of abortion, right? Because Christian people don't get their children circumcised."
My response was just: "Does that mean I'm Jewish?".
We both learned a bit that day. I now know that at least one of my friends is uncircumcised, and he now knows at least one of his friends is circumcised. It was an awkward few minutes after the conversation.

[–]Thornnuminous42/F/Fed my 'clock' to Captain Hook's Crocodile 25ポイント26ポイント  (7子コメント)

I (female) didn't even know what an uncircumcised penis looked like until college, when a friend flashed me. At the time, I thought there was something wrong with him because the tip looked droopy and melted to me.

A lot of other countries don't realize that male circumcision in the United States is nearly universal, regardless of religion.

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (3子コメント)

There was a story someone told on the Rooster Teeth Podcast about the first time he saw an uncircumcised penis (which was in a locker room at school). He thought the other kid was an alien. He had a very awkward conversation with his parents that day.

[–]tparkelaineDO NOT WANT 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hahaha! "Mom, Dad, I think Billy's an alien!"

"What? Why would you say that?"

"Well..."

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really wouldn't want to be present for that conversation. I couldn't even finish Back to the Future because of how much I was cringing, and I think that conversation would be even worse.

[–]nuskit 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, we can blame this on John Kellogg (of corn flakes fame) who did huge public campaigns in favor of circumcision, evidently to combat masturbation. As a result, Americans routinely mutilate their children and don't even know why!

[–]ally-saurus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not nearly universal in the US anymore. It depends on the region but I think nationally the rate is somewhere around 60% circumcised for kids born in the 2000s? Something like that. Sort of interesting.

[–]rebelaessedaiwine and cats not whining brats 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

So as a circumcised male, you wish you hadn't been circumcised?

[–]astorwyn22/F/CF/Cat fever not baby fever 13ポイント14ポイント  (10子コメント)

But seriously what is happening in the south right now. I live in the north where a new Planned Parenthood opens practically every month, and I read news that all these white males are getting all up in southern women's uteri.

Do they not understand that by passing all these anti-choice laws, it is not going to stop abortions. People have been getting abortions for millenia. The only difference nowadays is that it can be sterile, professional, and safe. Why are they trying to take that away?

And why are they trying to defund affordable birth control, but we hear nothing about trying to defund vasectomies and Viagra?

Edit: grammar

[–]Arudinne28M | Computers > Children 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

what is happening in the south right now

A bunch of bible-thumpers are all up in arms because:

1.) The amount of people, especially young people identifying as agnostic/atheist is much, much higher than previous generations. Perhaps the fact that literally almost everyone has a camera and few if any miracles are being recorded is helping people realize there might not actually be a God. If people stop believing in God, they stop going to church and they stop paying their tithes and pastors have a harder time buying that private jet they so dearly need.

2.) More and more people around the world are coming out at Gay/Straight/etc and more people are becoming tolerant of this.

3.) Most importantly: More women are getting an education beyond highschool and more of them are choosing careers over children. This often means they are gaining or demanding easier access to birth control and abortion. As I see it this threatens the control held by the established patriarchy that is a basic tenant of the Abrahamic Relgions that rule the religious landscape of the south.

TL;DR: Basically the world is changing, but Religion isn't (kind of hard when your book(s) of rules was written 3500 years ago and "updated" more than 500 years ago)

[–]astorwyn22/F/CF/Cat fever not baby fever 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Huh, religion must be way different down there then.

I've been a Catholic my whole life and I'm also a strong feminist/pro-LBGTQ/pro-choice and I go to a church that doesn't care what walk of life you're from, you are welcome. The amount of people coming to my church has increased I think due to the fact that everyone is so welcoming of all people. There are churches here proudly flying rainbow flags/etc.

I mean there are some crazies here but I have yet to find a church in my state that spreads hate and anti-feminism. Every Catholic person I know personally helped vote in the gay marriage here too.

[–]Arudinne28M | Computers > Children 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's the bible belt. Hate of anyone that isn't exactly the same as you is still a strong force here.

This happened recently: http://www.liberalamerica.org/2015/06/07/texas-racists-spray-paint-no-nggers-on-church-van-poison-black-familys-puppy/

[–]InnesCognito 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

'Do this or suffer for all eternity' doesn't exactly encourage toleration of any kind. The rigidity of thought that 'faith' encourages (i.e. 'this is true regardless of all evidence to the contrary') means that tolerant religious establishments are always going to be flukes.

[–]astorwyn22/F/CF/Cat fever not baby fever 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is all sorts of fucked up. I can't even wrap my head around that.

[–]ivegotyounow 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because MEN are the only ones allowed to choose down here. If they take away the safe methods available to women then they can and have resorted back to the good 'ole coat hanger option. Ive even heard of one girl flushing her vag with vodka. If a women wants and abortion she will get one by whatever means necessary

[–]tparkelaineDO NOT WANT 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

They don't care if they make abortions unsafe, because if those filthy slutty women try to wiggle out of the punishment of pregnancy, then they can just die from their unsafe abortions.

Of course, that means the pweshus fetus will die too, but let's not start using logic or anything. These ARE anti-choicers we're talking about here.

[–]random_user_name_13 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

There is one abortion clinic in my city. Routinely there are protestors outside of it. 99% of the time I drive by, they are old white men. Today I saw an old man holding a sign that said "Women DO regret abortions!" Uhm, no I don't. I don't regret it at all. I had my abortion at that clinic and appreciate how hard they work. What a fucking straw man argument.

[–]tparkelaineDO NOT WANT 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank goodness for old white men, or else I wouldn't know what I thought about anything!

[–]AlcoholicSpaceNinja 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

People still working in 2015 experienced surgeries without anesthesia when they were infants.

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And pretty much everybody has experienced a surgery without "(Anesthesia) Pulling Teeth".

[–]Eventress 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well see, you're actually using logic and thinking about these issues. That's the biggest problem with pro-lifers - they can't use logic, and they don't think.

[–]jai_Mundi 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Isn't giving birth painful? Does pain not matter when it comes to women? I guess not.

[–]facestapler19/M/Alabama/Prefers Felis catus to Homo sapiens sapiens[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

At least women who give birth (usually) consent, I guess. My argument was just using their example of "defenseless babies" against them.

[–]RighteousKarmaI love kids, I just can't eat a whole one. 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stealing this argument. Fucking fab.

[–]tparkelaineDO NOT WANT 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're going to find all kinds of inconsistencies in anti-choice arguments because they're not real big on logic.

[–]techknowAthena 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Okay so supporting circumcision and supporting circumcision without anesthetics are two completely different things. I feel like people in this thread need to recognize that most people ASSUME there will be anesthetics, or at least analgesics.

[–]JonWood00727/m/single/eastern US 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good argument.

[–]FallenAngelIIKids are banned at my apartment 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Republicans and anti-choicers only care about fetuses and babies while they're in the womb (as a way to control women), not once they're born. Once a baby has been born, they're the parents' problems.

[–]Thounumber121M/getting snipped/Looking for an awesome childfree girlfriend! 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Anti abortion is so dumb. It's like no one even gives a crap about the woman. The pain and toll of pregnancy is very real and it should be completely ok to abort. But nooooo... babiesssss

-.-

[–]MelonKanonMay all your bacon burn. 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unfortunately, after you become pregnant you are a second class citizen. If you want to get rid of it, you're evil of you keep it you're an angel.But if you can't afford it "Why did you have a baby you can't afford?"

[–]bringbringbananagoat 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's why I call it pro-birth instead of anti-abortion. They don't give two shits what happens once the kid is born, but don't get rid of it!
You might not be able to take care of it, but someone out there will... they just might lock him in a dog cage for most of his life and one day beat his starving ass to death, but hey! he was born right? So much better. /s

[–]sl1878 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

A better comparison would be giving a baby being born pain meds (because it is painful being squeezed through). Circumcisions do involve anesthesia in most cases.

[–]TryAgainAt10AM 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because (male) circumcision is 'muh tradishuuuun!!!1' and abortion is 'unetickal!!!1eleventy'