全 33 件のコメント

[–]voraxs 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

I really don't see a slut-shaming trend in MGTOW. I can choose not to be with a slut but that is not slut-shaming. The next day I may chose to be with a slut because I want quick low effort sex. Who are you arguing against?

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Ah, I should have made a distinction, I'm glad you brought that up:

Not being with sluts is not the same as slut-shaming.

I should have made that clearer.

I don't see much slut-shaming in MGTOW depending on where I go, too. The MGTOW forum, I do see it. Stardusk and the good ol' youtubers, no, I don't see it either.

Here on redit, though, I see a fair bit of slut-shaming.

It's fine if a MGTOW man doesn't want a slut, and it's fine to think they're disgusting, but it would be a bad reason to go your own way if it were solely because one might be disgusted with sluts. That's more of a hypothetical than a strawman, hopefully, and I'm not accusing anyone of being a MGTOW solely to slut-shame.

Again, thanks for bringing up that point. Perhaps the post would have fared better if I had thought of that.

[–]voraxs 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't see the slut shaming trend here in Reddit, but imagine that if that was the case it would be an emotional reaction to what society has become rather slut-shaming a woman or women in general. Traditionally, the "guardians" of morality were women, who increased their collective power by creating a perception that sex was scarce.

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It depends on where you go, but it comes with the red-pill rage, I think.

If you go to the MGTOW forums it's everywhere. If you go on youtube, then it depends on the content provider (which is why I like Stardusk; he doesn't give a shit about sluts). On here it comes up from time to time, it's not as bad as trp, though.

[–]ShitfacedBatman 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Slut shaming is mostly done to women by women.

I don't think MGTOW slut shames, they just don't date sluts, take sluts seriously, and get that fucking a slut comes with real caveats. If anything MGTOW is a warning to women who aren't sluts to not become sluts because men seriously won't put up with you.

Which is why women slut shame other women. Whether they know it or not, women who slut shame women are trying to prevent MGTOW-ism. Somewhere in their biological script they saw MGTOW as a real option men would take and they're not happy about it.

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reminds me of the Neo Unplugged and ISayPrettyLies chat (about halfway in).

Edit: link

[–]QraQen 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wtf is this shit? Do you think it's MGTOW territory to white Knight and defend sluts? Do you honestly want or expect MGTOW to gain traction in groups of politically correct normies?

Who fucking cares. Let the manosphere bash sluts if they want, it's not a subject that relates to MGTOWs even in the slightest.

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Exactly my point.

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, I don't think it's MGTOW territory to white knight, to be clear.

The manosphere can bash sluts if it wants, but I see that as gynocentric in nature, and I wanted to point that out.

[–]cock_pussy_up 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Men, in general, aren't big slut shamers. That's more of a female thing. Women slut-shame because they don't like women who are competition. Sluts can "steal" women's potential partners, boyfriends, or husbands, and they can reduce the "prices" of vagina. Its like the way drug gangs will murder a rival drug dealer who undercuts their prices. If Laura is out there giving the cookie away easily, how is Lisa going to be able to use her pussy to squeeze lots of resources out of men?

Men, in general, love sluts who have sex with them, although they may not want to invest in a woman who is unlikely to be faithful.

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree.

I would add, however, that those of a more traditional background can come into MGTOW in reaction to females expressing their sexual natures (for instance a man who gets cheated on, looking for answers stumbles upon MGTOW and learns about female nature).

I see it as part of the red pill rage that can be a bump in the road that slows me(n) down.

I'm not saying it's bad (in fact it's a healthy part of de-prioritizing women, and it serves a function in the community to keep out white knights and SJWs, among other uses).

So, it's not a bad thing as part of waking up... but it can be a bad thing if one never moves past it.

[–]thick_knees 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

men call sluts sluts and either laugh about it, get disgusted, take advantage of it and that's it. No major decision in a mans life is governed by the fact that women are sluts. slut-shaming is generally done by women and is a long drawn out series of vindictive manipulative mind fucks they dole out on their more attractive victim until said victim commits suicide or becomes a fat ass feminazi like themselves

[–]Rufus_Reddit 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

AFAICT The problem here is gynocentrism, not slut shaming. "Men going their own way" seems to be "men complaining about women."

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's why it can hold MGTOW back - it can be a gynocentrism cloaked in complaining about women.

It can be a problem for male sovereignty to fixate on who fucks whom, over increasing personal freedom. Moving past the red-pill rage, complaining about women eventually becomes trivial.

[–]OriginalGravy 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with the spirit of your message. An excessive focus on the character of other people, on how they live their lives... is typically unjustified --- unproductive, in the sense that spinning a reactionary narrative about these evil, evil people and all the evil things they do, typically makes you less capable of seeing the truth with any degree of accuracy.

However. At its core, judgement is really just making calculations regarding alternative actions and their consequences. It can be perfectly reasonable to say that someone is living their life wrong. People aren't even close to being perfectly competent. One could make the claim that someone is failing to maximize their expected value (according to the values they likely possess), that their actions are selecting for less satisfactory consequences or actively resulting in the loss of value. Selections that would not occur if they were smarter. One could also claim that, since one's inherent values can be prioritized, de-prioritized, can be changed, if not fully, then to an extent --- that the values someone is focusing on are the wrong values to focus on.

So, who, with all certainty, can say one ought not be a slut?

I will say it: in an era where you have a shot at actual immortality (not just passing on your genes or being remembered), in an era where digital media holds such focused, concentrated value, lacking the wasteful and at times risky nature of physical interaction --- it is wrong to build your life around physical interaction with other people. The only possible reason you would do so, to make it your prime focus, is because your mind still values community, tribal existence, above everything else --- because of your savage instincts. It is a prioritization that is unjustified, i.e. results in a worse life, a life of lower value, than if you were to de-prioritize that focus.

The chains of your biology that would make you miserable for discarding that focus... those chains can be made rid of as well, broken bit by bit, especially if you expect to see them crumble before you. I suspect much of our slavery to our instincts is a matter of perception: a default assumption that it cannot be overcome, that you cannot actually modify your mind to such an extent, so you do not make a true effort to do so. In the end, getting rid of my thirst for women was not particularly hard, once I actually resolved to do so, once I became aware that it was an option. It might well be harder for women to overcome such programming, but... they could do it --- I am sure some few already have. Those are the women who are living their life the right way. At the very least, close enough that it could not, should not be called wrong.

The only justifiable focus in your life is this: maximizing value. There are two foci that are subsets of this focus: maximizing your lifespan, and striving for a better mind. Tribal interaction --- sex, socializing, typically does not follow from these foci. Communication might. The greatest value of the internet is that it allows us to communicate without the physical waste of eye contact, body language, and other tribal paradigms which are primarily focused on hierarchy: signaling what you think of another, and which role you are playing.

One might value having sex --- but, your mind doesn't work on such hard, magical abstractions. It's not a matter of if(Sex) = Value, if(noSex) = noValue, it just means that you value some of the specific things happening in your mind as you have sex, things that can be better ticked off by watching porn. Sex is typically not justified if you make an actual calculation involving financial risk, health risk, time and effort, expected total value, and so on. So while there is value in sex --- having sex is typically a net negative calculation. It is wrong to focus on sex: it leads to a worse future than if you didn't, if you had more sensible foci. Your unjustified bias towards having sex is so strong that you would be better off committing to a life of celibacy. It would lead to a better life, a better you, if you knew how to proceed from there, instead of crumbling under your expectations that a lonely life must be miserable. If you knew how to maximize for value without relying upon your biological instincts. Doing it yourself is harder since, well, it requires thinking --- but it leads to better results. Evolution is a very sub-optimal process, you can do far better work in optimizing your life through actual thought than you can through reliance upon instinct.

Don't go against nature. Embrace the phenomena of truth.

The closer you are to your nature, the more you are a savage. Here's a very simple graph:

|--A--B--------------------------------------C|

A represents the sentience of say... dogs. B represents the sentience of humans. C represents optimal sentient existence, a hypothetical ultra-rational, ultra-sentient existent. Everything between B and C is something that requires us to deny our nature, to overcome our biology, to be less human. Being more human, more accepting of our nature... basically means being further away from C than if we specifically rebelled against our nature.

Let's say you were transported back in time by a million years. Would you be able to shape the earth into a machine body, and then transfer your mind into it as data, so that you could continue existing until the present day? This is not impossible, it does not violate the laws of physics --- it is something that a hyper-intelligent actor should be capable of doing. Even in a primitive environment, I doubt it would take such an actor more than a few decades to achieve it.

That's the point we need to reach, the level of mental strength that is required for survival, let alone something harder such as "embracing the truth", to know with full 100% accuracy what the world is. Part of that path is passing judgement, denying everything that is wrong --- in part, in order to not be chained by it, to not have your mind permanently bound by a false narrative. But! But also, because the very action of understanding why something is wrong, is conductive to figuring out what the right way of living your life might look like --- a necessary step for shaping a better mind. Intelligence is the ultimate method of actually exerting control over reality --- anything that increases your understanding of anything at all, is typically beneficial, even when it is not immediately obvious how it would benefit you. There is value in understanding why the life of a slut is wrong --- or its equivalent, why the life of an alpha male is not the kind of life you should want to live. That, however, is where it's supposed to end. Any focus on the lives of these people, beyond understanding why they live their lives in such a way --- is unjustified. A waste of time and attention.

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I will say it: in an era where you have a shot at actual immortality (not just passing on your genes or being remembered), in an era where digital media holds such focused, concentrated value, lacking the wasteful and at times risky nature of physical interaction --- it is wrong to build your life around physical interaction with other people.

Interesting. You make some very good points, but are you claiming a positive moral obligation?

I agree with you about reaching for immortality (and, I'd add, alternative, technologically-assisted reproductive strategies).

But that's me, and it might not be the best course of action for others... perhaps other men. Perhaps other men would benefit from being "sluts". I can't be sure, but I also can't think of an instance where a man's time is best spent chasing tail (... maybe if he's dying before technology can save him... but even then, there are probably better things one could be doing... So... I don't know if there's a counter-example... you could be entirely correct).

The only justifiable focus in your life is this: maximizing value.

Again, we agree. But I can't bring myself to call it a positive moral law... it's just a really good idea.

having sex is typically a net negative calculation.

It's that word "typically" that is my only hang-up. You make good points, sir.

The closer you are to your nature, the more you are a savage.

This I disagree with because I should have made it clear what I meant by "nature" (so, that one is my bad) - by nature I mean observable reality in the "natural law" sense of the word. I didn't mean a Jean Jacques Rousseau "noble savage" sense of nature.

I should have been more clear.

It's only by accepting the laws which govern the dynamics of life which leads the way forward.

You made an excellent response, and very thought-out and well written. I wish I could give you more than one upvote. Thanks.

[–]DarkestJ 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Slut shaming is primarily a woman-on-woman phenomenon. When a MGTOW sees a slut, he'll either laugh at her or use her for the only thing she's good for, but he'll never give enough of a fuck to shame her. No female is worth that kind of attention or the brainpower wasted on her even validating said sluts existence.

Let these nasty sluts be their vile, whorish selves. I've never seen any real MGTOW claim otherwise.

[–]SofiasWrath 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not sure on where I sit on the matter but I like the way you wrote your post, good job man.

[–]Isaiah4verse1[🍰] 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Great post. I don't care about sluts or how many men women sleep with. That's for the PUAs at RoK to bitch about.

I don't intend on ever sticking my dick in anyone of them so it doesn't affect me one way or another.

I think those that complain about women in this manner secretly want a unicorn and are mad whenever they are confronted with the fact they don't exist.

[–]voraxs 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Why would PUAs slut-shame? From their logic, the sluttier the better, I would assume.

[–]Isaiah4verse1[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Some of them do. Like the OP says, Roosh is guilty of this.

I personally think some of these guys are pumping and dumping to "get back" at women for shattering their Disney fantasies.

It really is hard for most men to live free. They need to be enslaved by a woman to feel alive.

[–]voraxs 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

If that is the case, these guys have the a mental condition as bad as feminism.

[–]Isaiah4verse1[🍰] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've actually seen some MGTOW do it too.

[–]Xuixien_TheEpic 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

So what you're telling us is that you're a concern troll?

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (6子コメント)

No, let me sum it up for you:

MGTOW is not gynocentric.

Slut-shaming is criticism - a focus - on the vagina of women and how they use them.

Slut-shaming, therefore, is gynocentric.

Furthermore, traditionalists (those who would have men go back to being provider work horses) use slut-shaming to enforce their views on how women (and men) should use their genitals.

I'm not a concern troll. Look at my post history.

[–]Xuixien_TheEpic 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

Sorry dude, not buying it. You're stretching definitions really thin.

If you want to be an overly literal twat, sure - anytime you talk about women it's "gynocentrism" - but that's not what we really mean when use that word.

It's not "gynocentrism" to point out that sluts are gross.

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Whatever. Continue focusing on women if you want (gross or not, worshiping or hating - not my problem).

[–]Xuixien_TheEpic 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You were calling me an overly literal twat, what do you want from me?

If you don't see that you can focus on vagina in a negative light (as well as the blue-pilled positive light which we reject), then I don't know how else to make my point to you.

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

And, seriously, look at my post history, if you think I'm a concern troll, just look at my body of work. http://www.reddit.com/user/ancap-biochemist/submitted/

[–]ancap-biochemist[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fine, downvote everything I've ever posted. Xuixien, what's your problem?

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