上位 200 件のコメント全て表示する 202

[–]Sid_Burn 165ポイント166ポイント  (33子コメント)

But could Shermans handle the superior German engineering as displayed in this handy chart.

[–]WuhanWTF 103ポイント104ポイント  (1子コメント)

Dank fuel can't melt Krupp steel.

[–]LordMcScrubington 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you'll find high octane fuel can't melt Krupp steel, according to Op.

[–]tj4kicksI learned all my morals in the 1800"s 49ポイント50ポイント  (14子コメント)

Does this sub have a chart for everything?

[–]Sid_Burn 114ポイント115ポイント  (6子コメント)

This was actually shameless stolen from /r/ShitWehraboosSay.

But yes, in general there is a chart for everything. For example /u/RangerPL made this handy chart to explain Nazi science.

[–]tj4kicksI learned all my morals in the 1800"s 34ポイント35ポイント  (2子コメント)

Lmao that's amazing

[–]slappymcnutface 24ポイント25ポイント  (1子コメント)

stolen from /r/ShitWehraboosSay[1] .

holy shit that word. I've been looking for the word "wehraboo" for so long, thank you. thank you so much.

[–]misunderstandgapPre-Marx, Marx, Post-Marx studies. All three fields of history. 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's beautiful, isn't it?

[–]nopantspaul 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

This internet chart brought to you by Transistors.

[–]TheD3rp 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

This was actually shameless stolen from /r/ShitWehraboosSay.

Pretty much everything on /r/ShitWehraboosSay has been stolen(Including the term Wehraboo) from the HAV on the World of Tanks forum.

[–]Thirtyk94WWII was a Zionist conspriacy![S] 23ポイント24ポイント  (6子コメント)

There is always a chart.

[–]tj4kicksI learned all my morals in the 1800"s 29ポイント30ポイント  (3子コメント)

Is there a chart showing why kids historically like cinnamon toast crunch?

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 11ポイント12ポイント  (2子コメント)

Woah man some things were not meant to be known!

[–]KodiakAnorak 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm pretty sure that this is how Nyarlothep gets released into our reality. Trust me, I'm an expert.

[–]TheAlmightySnarkFoodtrucks are like Caligula, only then with less fornication 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

And if not, we will make it. We are afterall some of the most prominent comseigneurs of faulty charts!

[–]MistuhbullElder of Zion[🍰] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you have a chart for that?

[–]qounqer 18ポイント19ポイント  (15子コメント)

Truthfully though, OP's post is almost as biased towards the Americans as that is towards Grosdeutschland. He doesn't even talk about German gun superiority throughout the war, which is where the actual myth of German superiority comes from. The tigers, panthers, and most panzer fours guns could penetrate the front of the Sherman at almost any range, where as the m3 cannon equipped on most Sherman's had trouble with the front of those tanks at all but the closest range.

[–]Thirtyk94WWII was a Zionist conspriacy![S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

The Tiger and Panther did out gun the Sherman this is true. The Sherman did have to get close to them to hurt them. The Panzer IV on the other hand had 80 mm of flat armor at the most on its front. The 75 mm M3 had no problems with the Panzer IV. Also I didn't talk about the guns because the focus of this post is on the Sherman's armor, fire chance, and how many Shermans it took to kill a Panther or Tiger. I can make a post on the gun, which I am much more vicious about to the Americans although I will give the US that fact they pretty much started a development program for the 76 mm gun basically as soon as the Sherman finished development itself.

Edit: I also said that the Sherman had vulnerable ammo racks which had a 60-80% chance of detonating or catching fire when hit until we started using wet stowage which didn't happen until around the time the 76 mm gun started appearing.

[–]LeuCeaMia 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

I also said that the Sherman had vulnerable ammo racks which had a 60-80% chance of detonating or catching fire when hit until we started using wet stowage which didn't happen until around the time the 76 mm gun started appearing.

To be fair, the dry Shermans weren't especially vulnerable as the Tiger and Panzer IV were no better.

[–]Thirtyk94WWII was a Zionist conspriacy![S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not saying the Sherman's ammo racks were more likely to explode if hit. All tanks were vulnerable to those same conditions, it was just the placement in such a conspicuous area that was also high up on the tank, meaning it was harder to hide them, that made the Sherman more vulnerable.

[–]KodiakAnorak 2ポイント3ポイント  (11子コメント)

Two words: Sherman Firefly

[–]qounqer 12ポイント13ポイント  (8子コメント)

Of the fifty thousand shermans built, only two thousand of them, solely in British service, where converted to firefly's.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group 20ポイント21ポイント  (4子コメント)

You going to mention the 6,500+ 19,000 76mm Shermans (more than triple the total number of Panthers built) as well?

[–]hborrgg 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

2,000 is more than the number of tigers the Germans had.

[–]karlbonner 68ポイント69ポイント  (21子コメント)

I dont think you know what fuel octane is... octane rating referrs to the fuels knock resistance... not potential energy. high octane fuels arent more explosive or more dangerous... on the contrary they are more stable.

[–]Thirtyk94WWII was a Zionist conspriacy![S] 26ポイント27ポイント  (15子コメント)

Ah, not much of an engine guy I have to admit. I got the impression of what you said from wikipedia but I just don't have the technical knowledge to really understand it. On the plus side your comment backs up my argument that the engine and engine fires weren't the source of the "Ronson" moniker. My point in that part of the post was that the ammo racks were the real cause of fires in Sherman tanks and they got fixed. Thanks for the info!

[–]karlbonner 28ポイント29ポイント  (7子コメント)

in simple terms a high octane rating helps make sure that the fuel explodes when you want it to, not too early, not too soon. high octane fuel is more stable in the sense that it wont ignite under low compression as easily, and so can be compressed more before exploding.

but yeah, in terms of potential energy, all fuel is dangerous! i wouldnt want to be trapped in a tin can under fire next to a 1940's era engine regardless of which country made it!

[–]Thirtyk94WWII was a Zionist conspriacy![S] 14ポイント15ポイント  (6子コメント)

high octane fuel is more stable in the sense that it wont ignite under low compression as easily, and so can be compressed more before exploding.

Makes sense why they would reserve the high octane stuff for the fly boys. Don't want your engine under performing when you're 30,000 feet in the air under fire from 109's, 190's, and possibly early jets.

Oh and the engine in the Sherman was a 1929 vintage engine ;)

[–]BiAsALongHorse 18ポイント19ポイント  (4子コメント)

The big deal with high octane avgas is that you can squeeze a lot more air into the cylinder (whether supercharged or turbocharged) with out the engine disassembling itself. More air means more fuel which means more power. Planes use forced induction to compensate for low air pressure at high altitudes.

[–]TheAlmightySnarkFoodtrucks are like Caligula, only then with less fornication 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

With forced induction I presume you mean compression in the inlet or do you mean a supercharger stage?

[–]BiAsALongHorse 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I was referring to superchargers.

[–]orthag 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

The best thing to come out of aviation since the airplane itself.

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Turbo-superchargers as well!

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

except for the Ford GAA equiped ones

[–]Taschi420 5ポイント6ポイント  (5子コメント)

Aside from that - didn't the Sherman have a variety of different engines during its production run, some operated with gasoline and some operated with diesel?

[–]TheHIV123 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes, though the only model that ran on diesel was the M4A2.

[–]Perister 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

Only model to go through serious production. The M4A6 is looking at you in its Frankensteinish glory.

Also someone tried to convince me the M4A6 was a Canadian tank, I mean wtf.

[–]TheHIV123 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

What? Canadian?

I always forget to mention the non-production models so good catch!

[–]Perister 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Didn't you know the Skink was an M4A6? Just don't look at the back. It was weird, it just... was weird.

He posts pictures on a popular app, he specializes in photos of various war machines, there are a lot of profiles like that I usually follow them for wheraboo bait, and boy do they deliver. He apparently had a "difficult time" researching the M4A6 and must have rolled it together with the ninja tank known as the M4A5 cough. Mind you I double checked that the M4A6 was produced by Caterpillar Inc. using wikipedia. I deal with stuff like this alot, it is my crusade against I don't even know what the hell you call this. I'm still trying to figure out how to properly fight wheraboos with a fascist character count in place.

Also post more photo albums. Pl0x.

[–]TheHIV123 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Didn't you know the Skink was an M4A6? Just don't look at the back. It was weird, it just... was weird.

Don't look in the engine compartment or along the sides either...

Mind you I double checked that the M4A6 was produced by Caterpillar Inc. using wikipedia. I deal with stuff like this alot, it is my crusade against I don't even know what the hell you call this.

Combating myths and wheraboos?

Also post more photo albums. Pl0x.

I am thinking about doing some more. Need to find the time though. I had so much time on my hands last summer.

[–]Tony_AbbottPBUH 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Another common idea behind the 'ronson' name is the fact the Sherman mostly had petrol engines. It's pretty dumb because every German tank (that I know of) used petrol engines too.

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Super high octane fuel is actually surprisingly hard to ignite. It's also of limited benefit to some engines, but high octane's knock resistance is super helpful for high performance engines.

[–]karlbonner 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

annndddd notably aeroplane engines :)

[–]Stefan_Zhirkov 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Unless it is a diesel engine.

[–]Bloodysneeze 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

In that case you rate it with a cetane number though.

[–]VoteRonaldRayGunThe Accession War was to protect the Argonian minority 53ポイント54ポイント  (16子コメント)

If World Of Tanks taught me anything, all you need in a tank is 152mm of stronk Soviet engineering and faith in Stalin to guide your shells.

[–]hussard_de_la_mort"sandwich in my right, .45 in my other hand" 17ポイント18ポイント  (2子コメント)

To be fair, the SU/ISU-152 got used as a tank destroyer because the 152mm HE shell could rip the turret off of a Tiger with blast force alone.

[–]disguise117genocide = crimes against humanity = war crimes 16ポイント17ポイント  (1子コメント)

That is because penetrations are for bourgeoisie capitalist pig-dogs. True Soviet weapons destroy Fascists through high explosive force the faith of the Proletariat in Marshal Stalin.

[–]VoteRonaldRayGunThe Accession War was to protect the Argonian minority 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Damage is divided equally amongst all critical modules of Panzers, as is demanded by the will of the people.

[–]cuddles_the_destroyeThwarted General Winter with a heavy parka 13ポイント14ポイント  (11子コメント)

Also I chew on Tigers solo with my Shermans. Mostly because, like in reality, most of the Tigers I fight are piloted by diehard fans of Nazi Germany while lacking the skill to properly operate the tank. That and I'm MLG pro hot shit.

I'm working towards my own Tiger, though.

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

xXXcuddles~uguuMLGproxXx

[–]cuddles_the_destroyeThwarted General Winter with a heavy parka 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hilariously, I'm cuddles_the_destroyer[442nd] ingame.

The 442nd being the Japanese American division whose motto was "First in, Last out" which is how I try to play my games.

[–]phoenixbasileusManchukuo was totes a legitimate state 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

Based Nisei. Loyal as fuck despite internment.

[–]HumboldtBlue 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most highly decorated combat unit in U.S Army history.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Most decorated unit in the US military. Ever.

[–]SolarAquarionSpielbergian anti-German, anti-Gentile propagandist 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

True patriots

[–]discretelyoptimized 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nitpicking here, but the 442nd was a regiment, not a division.

[–]VoteRonaldRayGunThe Accession War was to protect the Argonian minority 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

The Tiger I is often insulted in WoT, but it's actually one of the most enjoyable tanks to play. People rush towards it before knowing how to play heavy tanks and think it's an invincible killing machine.

Won't get too many bounces but the health pool is so huge you can take a lot of hits anyway, just try to avoid going into towns because of all the IS drivers. The gun has high RoF and pen, and it's about as maneuverable as a T29 so not a complete slug.

[–]cuddles_the_destroyeThwarted General Winter with a heavy parka 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh, man, the Tiger I in WoT is great. My friends have it and know how to abuse the DPM. Think they both have at least one Mark of Excellence in theirs.

My commentary on me eating tigers alive was more on skill disparity rather than vehicular balance.

[–]VoteRonaldRayGunThe Accession War was to protect the Argonian minority 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, also pre-nerf Sherman was OP combined with most Tigers being player's first heavy lead to many enjoyable games for Sherman smurfs.

[–]cuddles_the_destroyeThwarted General Winter with a heavy parka 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I prefer fighting tigers in my easy 8 sherman. More hp to work with.

[–]ALLAH_WAS_A_SANDWORMHitler accidentally all of Poland. 49ポイント50ポイント  (3子コメント)

the “it takes five Shermans to kill a cat” myth.

So essentially they're taking "the Germans were losing so badly that they got immediately swamped 5-to-1 every time they poked out their nose" and twisting it into "the Germans were so super-special-awesome that it took five tanks to face them every time they showed up", right?

[–]seaturtlesallthewayWikipedia is peer-viewed. 43ポイント44ポイント  (0子コメント)

Essentially they are taking "The Germans didn't have a cohesive tank force anymore" and twist it into German superiority.

IIRC, a German tank platoon was 4 tanks, which rarely happened to be operational (crew-wise or machine-wise) in '44.

[–]PostovoyGlorious Krupp Steel Folded Over 1000 Times 28ポイント29ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, it's like saying the Allies were so worn out by the time they reached Berlin that even children could fight them.

[–]jonewerThe library at Louvain fired on the Germans first 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's excellent, I'm keeping it.

[–]jonewerThe library at Louvain fired on the Germans first 24ポイント25ポイント  (3子コメント)

IIRC, the "Lights first time, every time" thing actually dates to the 1950's so was obviously only applied contemporaeously by Nazi time travellers from their spaceships on their moon-base.

[–]MajorbookwormSeutonius was the Roman Daily Mail 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Wasn't that saying being applied to the Sherman a german thing? Did veterans retroactively give the tank that moniker after the war?

[–]ciderczarUnrepentant Ouiaboo 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

I know during the war they got the nickname Tommy Cookers, Ronson's possible simply as the nickname of a popular lighter, but I can't say for sure.

Edit: Ronson made massively popular pocket lighters before the war. Tommycooker was a German moniker, Ronson was a British one from during the war.

[–]killswitch247Lincoln did nothing wrong. 72ポイント73ポイント  (22子コメント)

The conclusion on the armor is that the armor was either superior or equal to nearly everything the Sherman faced in combat during World War 2.

no it wasn't. it was slightly superior to the t-34 (which it didn't face until korea) and a bit more superior to the pz4. it was inferior to the panther, tiger and any other heavy german tank.

but comparing armour with armour isn't relevant, the comparision with the enemies' guns is far more important. and if you compare that you'll see that the heavier german tanks actually could expect to bounce a hit, even the 80mm pz4 front armour had a decent chance to bounce a 75mm shell. at the same time the german 75 and 88mm guns had enough power to penetrate the shermans' frontal armour quite reliably. even more important: the germans could expect to hit with their first shell on longer ranges than the americans.

Instead of high octane gasoline the Sherman used more often than not around 80 octane fuel

higher octane fuel can be used in high compression engines without uncontrolled self-ignited explosions (aka knocking). it's not more or less flammable.

Wet stowage reduced the chances of an ammo rack fire or detonation in Sherman tanks to only 15% compared to 60-80% of dry stowage Shermans.

this is correct.

This part of the US armor doctrine has unfortunately lead many to believe the German tanks were of far superior quality

or, maybe, it was the smaller guns and thinner armour.

There is a reason tankers preferred the Sherman over the M26 Pershing even during World War 2

underpowered and unreliable engine, too much weight for small bridges and the general lack of replacement parts.

why we quickly switched out our Pershings for M46 Pattons and you guessed it Shermans during the Korean War

underpowered engine that tends to overheat in a very hilly terrain, at the same time nearly no tank vs. tank engagements after 1950.

these facts have been twisted and misinterpreted into something they are not

refuting belton cooper shouldn't result in creating a new (equally wrong) anti-wehraboo narrative. if you want to read more about that, i recommend this old badhistory thread.

[–]nickik 15ポイント16ポイント  (19子コメント)

You are right. The american were a bit slow with updating the 75mm to the 76mm or maybe the 17pdr.

One of the reason maybe was that the 75mm HE was so good.

Also, I think its important to point out that the germans kind of were known for rushing things out before they were ready for prime time. The germans were first to bring out the next generation tanks, but they had quite a few technical problem. Overall they were not that effective, the PIV remains the main workhorse.

Edit: 77mm HE --> 75mm HE

[–]killswitch247Lincoln did nothing wrong. 19ポイント20ポイント  (9子コメント)

You are right. The american were a bit slow with updating the 75mm to the 76mm or maybe the 17pdr.

the americans decided against using the british 17 pdr gun. at the time they didn't have tested the guns against the panther armour, which turned out to be a major mistake. the 17 pdr was significantly more efective against the panther than the american 76mm gun.

One of the reason maybe was that the 77mm HE was so good.

no one said that all tanks had to be equipped with high penetration guns. the british for example used platoons with 4 75mm and one 17pdr tanks (sherman + sherman firefly or cromwell + challenger), which turned out to perform quite well against german tanks.

another point is that it's quite questionable why there was only an ineffective HE round for the 76mm gun. it looks more like the introduction of the gun was rushed and instead of adapting the quite effective 75mm he round to the new gun they just used the very old 3' gun shell and combined it with the new cartridge.

Also, I think its important to point out that the germans kind of were known for rushing things out

most of the german tanks actually had a rather lengthy development time. the main problem was that most designs got heavier and heavier and the originally well sized engines and transmissions were undersized in the final design and subsequent "improved" versions.

The germans were first to bring out the next generation tanks

actually the soviets had the technological edge most of the time, the only exception was summer-fall '43 when the germans had introduced the panther and up-armoured the pz4, but at the same time the soviets still used the 76mm gunned t-34 and didn't have the IS-series tanks yet.

Overall they were not that effective, the PIV remains the main workhorse

it was the workhorse because it was one of the 2 tanks models that were available in large numbers (the other being the stug3). if you look at combat effectivity, then the large german tanks were effective, but not effective enough to make up for the weaker german economy. germany did not lose the war because they had ineffective tanks.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group 9ポイント10ポイント  (2子コメント)

You want to say something about the Panther's god-awful mechanical issues, including a transmission that ate itself in a matter of a couple hundred miles, or the porous fuel lines that leaked into the crew compartment?

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or the Tiger's Teeeeeeensy range?

It didn't help that the Panther was only good on head on situations. But in open battles, it's large side profile was a liability.

[–]killswitch247Lincoln did nothing wrong. 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You want to say something about the Panther's god-awful mechanical issues

yes. they were mechanical and god-awful. early panther models had only ~35% operational readiness, later that number was ~65%, which is still awful.

or the porous fuel lines that leaked into the crew compartment

i only read about fuel pumps that leaked into the engine compartment causing engine fires.

[–]nickik 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

most of the german tanks actually had a rather lengthy development time

That does not mean they were not 'rushed' out. You 'rush' out something if you send it into the fight before the major design flaws are worked out.

the main problem was that most designs got heavier and heavier and the originally well sized engines and transmissions were undersized in the final design and subsequent "improved" versions.

Yes. The Panther should have been a 35tonne tank.

Reading Guderians book "Panzer Leader" goes into some detail about that.

[–]PerryGriggs 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think everyone is missing the point here in regards to the 17 pdr vs 76mm debate.

The 76mm was a far better option for the US for a few reasons, but to me at least, the biggest one was logistics.

Think about it, to adopt the 17 pdr, the US would have to retool factories, and start pumping out both the guns and the ammo from scratch.

The 76mm already had a presence in the logistics chain, and in US factories, so it was the better choice, especially considering it did the job.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The 17pdr was also incredibly inaccurate with APDS. The reason the 76mm and 17pdr had crap HE was the higher chamber pressure necessitating a thicker shell wall and less explosive filler.

[–]disguise117genocide = crimes against humanity = war crimes 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

it was the workhorse because it was one of the 2 tanks models that were available in large numbers (the other being the stug3). if you look at combat effectivity, then the large german tanks were effective, but not effective enough to make up for the weaker german economy. germany did not lose the war because they had ineffective tanks.

Except the existence of the Tiger, Tiger II and maybe even the Panther were actual drains on the German economy because 2 or 3 Panzer IVs could be bought for the same money and production time and that doesn't even take into account time and money spent retooling factories and such.

Part of Germany's economic problem was frittering away precious industrial resources on a multitude of products in each category instead of ruthlessly concentrating on one good product like the Soviets and Americans did.

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 6ポイント7ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'll also add that the oft forgotten M10 Wolverine and M18 Hellcat were much better tank destroyers than the Sherman. This is especially obvious when despite the 76mm's subpar performance, the M18's performance was above average due to it's speed and ability to "shoot and scoot."

In other words, if we want to compare tanks, why not compare tank destroyers?

[–]disguise117genocide = crimes against humanity = war crimes 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Arguably though, the tank destroyer doctrine and the politics responsible for it had a hand in holding back the development of the Sherman. When the Soviets encountered the Tiger and Panther, they immediately started a program to up-gun the T-34 to the 85mm gun. Meanwhile, the Americans were having debates about up-gunning the Sherman because certain factions in the Army were saying that it was pointless because the Tank Destroyers would take care of things.

That being said, Tank Destroyers certainly did have their time in the sun at certain battles. Still, the fact that that doctrine was widely abandoned after the war speaks volumes as to its effectiveness.

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thank destroyers have their place, but tanks that have a good option to fight other thanks have too.

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

My point is that the idea of a MBT had not been created in the 1940s yet. Even now though, there's plenty of Anti-armor and anti-tank options that far supercede armor options of the past.

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Im not sure what you mean. All the ideas that you need, to realise why having a better armor destrying was a good idea are allready there.

[–]fuckthepolis2 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's a quote in Harry Yiede's Tank Killers from Eisenhower when they started issuing the 76mm guns along the lines of "you told me the 75 would do the job, why am I always the last to hear about these things".

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know enough about the US Army Weapons Development to know why that things that happened , happened .

[–]BritainOpPlsNerfParty like its 1939 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

even the 80mm pz4 front armour

50mm, 30mm applique on everything leading up to the H - and there were noticeable amount of 'modernized' Gs in service along side H's as late as summer 1944. Which decidedly had very shitty chances of bouncing 75mm, like basically any piece of applique armor in WWII, but sure lets throw numbers around without context. It may have absorbed the 75mm round, which means very little asides from increasing crew survivability before becoming at the very least a mission kill. But hey, if its not a T-34 turret popping off into the sky from sympathetic explosions, it isn't gutt.

The 80mm in a single piece didn't come along until the H and was solidified with the J, which had its own myriad of production issues compared to the H. Most would say it was a lateral production switch, not an upgrade (some people say you can still hear Hans cranking the turret to this day!). To say nothing of the fact that it was in service at a time when 76s were far more common than the 1:12 and 1:4 ratios seen in late July and early August.

But ayyy lmao keep saying a 1936 design upgrade was less obsolescent than a 1940 design upgrade.

I won't sit here and preach that the Sherman ate tanks alive at 1000m, it simply isn't true. Crews had to fight robustly for their victories against anything but the greenest of enemy; but then again the same can be said of any medium tank attacking in any situation, so there's nothing very shocking about that either. Even the most pro-American people note the relative ineffectiveness of the 75mm in the armor-piercing role, so there's nothing very shocking in pointing that out either. Yet that doesn't translate to 'lel errthing else 2gutt' - the reality remains that in the armor-gun race the Panzer IV is in a photo-finish with the Sherman, and the Shermans established favorable kill ratios over them in battles of maneuver.

Disparaging Cooper, like so many others, doesn't create a counter-jerk. We're saying the Sherman was a good tank that kept its place in the battlefield well past conventional obsolescence because it still had impact. Claiming it was inferior against the Panther is not a bold statement, bringing up heavy tanks is apples to oranges, and a bit of a painfully obvious statement as well. We never said it was a Death Star. Its no different than saying the BT-7 was an excellent tank at the time of its production, hell the Panzer IV was undeniably a solid tank and its unsurprising 12.SS Crews actually preferred it to the Panther (source: Hubert Meyer). All people are saying is that the Sherman wasn't a Star Trek red shirt.

Basically when we boil down your post it comes down to 'but those things that aren't Panzer IVs!' Admittedly I have no fucking idea why there's a tangent about the M26 as well, which is utterly unrelated to the meat of the thread as much as beating off to Tigers Is.

[–]killswitch247Lincoln did nothing wrong. 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Disparaging Cooper, like so many others, doesn't create a counter-jerk.

it depends on how it's done. if i read that "the (sherman's) armor was either superior or equal to nearly everything the Sherman faced in combat during World War 2" or that its inferiority to heavier german tanks ("cats") was due to a misunderstanding of american doctrine (and not its difference in armour and armament), then it's badhistory.

Claiming it was inferior against the Panther is not a bold statement, bringing up heavy tanks is apples to oranges

of course it is. but when apples and oranges engage in combat, you at least have to ask why your apples have no effective weapons against their oranges. i'm going to quote myself from another thread:

but something entirely else is far more important: even though the allies encountered their first tigers in tunesia, even though they had to have reports about panther tanks appearing in considerable numbers in russia as far back as early-mid 1943, even though they encountered panthers for themselves in italy, they didn't even think about this problem until they ran into serious troubles in france in summer '44. the british thought about it early, had a solution on hand and used their 17pdrs and 6pdrs (with the much more available 6pdr hvap round) to great success. this was a problem with american decision making, and it came at the cost of unnecessary lives. the same critique can be held against the decision that no heavier armoured and/or armed tank than the sherman was needed, which delayed the pershing's development until a few weeks before the german surrender.

[–]GrassWaterDirtHorse 14ポイント15ポイント  (9子コメント)

The Sherman was also very customizable. The M4A3E2 Jumbo had terrifyingly good frontal armor, and the Sherman chassis was used to mount the 17 per, 105mm Howitzer, and even a postwar French 105 rifled gun (comparable to the famous 105mm L7 Royal Ordinance that lasted through the cold war) that the Israelis added on.

[–]McCaberBeating a dead Hitler 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

They even got amphibious overhauls in 1944 so they could storm beaches.

[–]wwstevensAbraham Lincoln owned slaves 22ポイント23ポイント  (3子コメント)

Later on they even added wings for aerial assaults. I mean, it already had an aircraft engine, right?

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah they called it the P-47/

[–]Warbird36The Americans used Tesla's time machine to fake the moon landing 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which was later up-armored and given an engine upgrade into the A-10.

[–]Infamously_Unknown 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

M4A3E2 Jumbo had terrifyingly good frontal armor

I mean, you're right, but there was about 250 of them produced. That's half the number of even those overdesigned Tiger IIs, so not really a relevant variant for "just" an uparmored model among the tens of thousands of other more common Shermans.

[–]ragazor 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

yeah but the germans just shoot them from behind instead XD checkmate, amerika

[–]nickik 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well no. The Tiger or Panther were not really able to do that. The Tiger specially could pretty much only fight on roads, it could not go around you easily.The cross country performance was not all that good.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The panther also ate it's final drive and the rest of the tranny in less time than it took to run out of gas

[–]ParkSungJunMao and Kim singhandedly removed Sushi from Asia 13ポイント14ポイント  (8子コメント)

I think it's also worth pointing out that typically its rather uneconomical for you to use tanks to fight other tanks. The Allies typically used things like anti-tank guns, tank destroyers, and shoddy German engineering and logistics to take out German tanks, rather than deploying their own tanks (the Firefly and the 76mm were deployed in "relatively" small numbers compared to the 75mm version). Similarly, against Soviet armor, the Germans primarily used StuGs and Jagdpanzers, but people just remember PANZERLIED and not Sturmgeschutzlied.

[–]wastedcleverusername 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

And after the war ended, they promptly did away with TDs because if you were going to stick a tank gun on a vehicle, you might as well go all the way and give it a turret.

[–]ParkSungJunMao and Kim singhandedly removed Sushi from Asia 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well TDs actually split off into anti-tank missile units, like today's TOW missiles and their vehicle mounts.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Like Bradleys or hmmvws with tows

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

You mean unturreted TDs. Tank Destroyers still existed, TOW missles and what not still exist.

[–]misunderstandgapPre-Marx, Marx, Post-Marx studies. All three fields of history. 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

US tank destroyers always had a turret.

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hence why I always want to remind pepople the M10 and the M18 existed. And they were rather effective given their mobile abilities.

[–]socialjusticeorc 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

From my reading, the biggest issue with them was that when they showed up supporting an infantry unit, they'd get assigned to "tank" duties and not do terribly well, because to an infantry commander, if it looked like a tank, it was gonna get used like a tank.

In their proper role, they were fine vehicles, especially the M18. And a turreted tank destroyer is nothing to sneeze at, considering German counterparts usually weren't.

[–]WhoH8inRome was built in a day... by aliens 48ポイント49ポイント  (11子コメント)

Ha, nice try! But this is reddit and we all know that the Germans in in WWII were actually the best ever and that Rommel was the real hero of the war. Actually America wasn't even in the war really, it was all Russia that won and they were evil communists that we don't like. Plus didn't you hear that FDR let Pearl Harbor happen and that he forced the Japanese to do it and that America committed all ze war crimes? Japanese internment, hello!

And another thing, have you ever seen a fat Nazi? No didn't think so and we know reddit hates fat people (and doesn't know who Herman Goering is). Ipso Facto Nazis=r/fatpeoplehate=reddit. Its first grade spongebob

[–]YossarionCao Cao did nothing wrong. 41ポイント42ポイント  (6子コメント)

And another thing, have you ever seen a fat Nazi? No didn't think so

Au contraire

[–]anymooseposter 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

I see nothing!

[–]misunderstandgapPre-Marx, Marx, Post-Marx studies. All three fields of history. 8ポイント9ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nothing!

[–]seaturtlesallthewayWikipedia is peer-viewed. 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

No need for a Bavarian Ubermensch. Just look at the Prussian Master Race MeierGöring

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Was expecting a picture of Hermann Goering.

I was disappointed.

[–]forgodandthequeenPhD in I told you so 14ポイント15ポイント  (3子コメント)

Interesting fact; Herman Goering once did a speech asking the German people whether they wanted the government to bring in iron or lard, with the heavy implication being 'we're bringing in iron.' In that speech he said: "I tell you, guns make you strong, but butter only makes you fat." Given this is Herman Goering we're talking about, I'm sure that went down great.

[–]TSA_jijDegenerate faker of history 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

[–]forgodandthequeenPhD in I told you so 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not Heartfield's strongest work there, I feel. Bit messy, message is slightly unclear. Some of his best pieces are the one produced following the Night of the Long Knives and, my personal favourite, one where Goebbells glues a Marx beard on Hitler.

[–]crazyeddie123 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

message is slightly unclear.

What? Given that picture, my ability to understand two words on it ("Butter" and "Hurrah"), and a tiny bit of context, that picture was clear as day to me.

[–]Badgerfest 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

As a reformed Wehraboo I'm saving this post.

[–]ciderczarUnrepentant Ouiaboo 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Whatever. You can't shake me from Waltzing Matilda Master Race.

[–]Quimbymouse 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

I've been reading all this talk of the Sherman in /r/badhistory with a great amount of interest as I am currently part way through a read of Belton Y. Cooper's book, 'Death Traps: The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II'. The author served with the 3rd Armored Division's Maintenance Battalion in Europe during WWII.

Now, I am far away from being an expert, and I have not finished the book yet...but pretty much everything I've read in badhistory so far is almost the complete opposite of what Cooper had to say about the Sherman.

I'm not taking a side in this fight...just curious as to why there is such a wide gap between the information provided by redditors, and first hand accounts like in Cooper's book.

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

So, Belton Y Cooper. He's a guy. He wrote his memoir. It's also shit. This is a good article by Nicolas Moran, Wargaming North America's in house historian about why his book is shit

Edit: I know it's not all fancy like COmrade Zhukov's source, but it's a different perspective, and I fully reccomend the Chieftan's hatch series of videos/articles that moran does. He served in the Irish and US Army, commanding a platoon of Abrams in Iraq, and is great at archive diving

[–]Georgy_K_ZhukovLend Lease? We don't need no stinking 'Lend Lease'! 19ポイント20ポイント  (2子コメント)

TL;DR - Everyone is well aware of Cooper's book, and also thinks it is a terrible source on the Sherman. This review by Robert Forczyk (He's legit! And has a number of great reviews on Amazon, also notably taking down Band of Brothers) is a pretty good attack on the problems inherent in the book.

[–]nihil_novi_sub_soleW. T. Sherman burned the Library of Alexandria 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

also notably taking down Band of Brothers

I don't suppose you have a link to this? I couldn't find it among his reviews.

[–]Georgy_K_ZhukovLend Lease? We don't need no stinking 'Lend Lease'! 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well he is quite prolific. Several hundred at least. Here it is:

"Errors, Exaggerations & Vicious Slander"

[–]Tony_AbbottPBUH 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

someone has posted takedown of that book on the sub before, ill see if i can find it

[–]SerBeardian 6ポイント7ポイント  (6子コメント)

As someone who plays German and Russian in War Thunder Ground Forces and also played Russian in World of Tanks: Can attest, Shermans are bastards to fight against.

[–]killswitch247Lincoln did nothing wrong. 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

SerB?

[–]SerBeardian 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I go by the same name as on here in both games (Though I haven't played WoT in over a month)

[–]whatismooElders of Zion 2, Jewgalectric JewgaJew: Part I, The Jewening 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Get in a t-34 with APHE and side shot them

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's just because in WT there's no overmatching mechanic and the bouncing mechanic is absurd.

[–]LeuCeaMia 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

WT does have it, it's just not ridiculously overblown like it is in WoT.

This effect will now be reproduced in the game. For each type of projectile, and for different ratios of calibre/barrier thickness at different angles of attack - own armour penetration fall ratios. Most of the data is taken from the publications “WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery” and “Terminal ballistic Data Vol 2 and 3.”.

WoT's isn't very realistic as it would mean an SU-152 would easily penetrate the original M1 Abrams' glacis.

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

The bouncing RNG is kind of weird though since 22mm armor can bounce 88mm shells with ease.

[–]McCaberBeating a dead Hitler 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

Freedomboner status: achieved.

[–]SnapshillBot 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

This perfectly encapsulates why whatever you're talking about is Lincoln's fault.

Snapshots:

  1. This Post - 1, 2, 3

  2. as this famous Youtube personality ... - 1, 2, 3

  3. "humps" near the front of the hull. - 1, 2, 3

I am a bot. (Info / Contact)

[–]Coltorl- 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Makes me want to get into War Thunder again, I heard they recently added American tanks as option in ground battles.

[–]fuckthepolis2 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

They finally started adding in US tank destroyers but I won't indulge again myself till they put in a 37mm armed willies jeep.

Well, that and Cromwells.

Cruiser tanks or riot

[–]When_Ducks_Attack 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I won't indulge again myself till they put in a 37mm armed willies jeep.

Behold! It's faster and better armored!

[–]orthag 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

What i always see is people comparing the Sherman to the German heavy tanks. Which of course a medium tank will come up slightly short of. It's a medium tank. If it were like a heavy tank, it'd be a heavy tank.

[–]buy_a_pork_bunListened to Hilter's Generals 8ポイント9ポイント  (4子コメント)

Even in comparisons to Panthers the Sherman fails in a 1v1 situation. But 1v1 effectiveness does nothing because it ignores logistical situations and tactics.

Plus anyone trying to go 1v1 in tanks is strange since armored units operated in groups.

[–]orthag 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, it's a vert shallow evaluation of the tank.

[–]socialjusticeorc 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Squeeze in a Sherman Firefly if you're the British and those Panthers might be in for a nasty surprise though :)

Of course, the typical late WW2 scenario isn't "4 Sherman vs 4 Panthers". It's "4 Sherman vs no Panzers".

[–]orthag 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because all the Panzers had broke down months before. Such an unreliable tank.

[–]socialjusticeorc 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Between breakdowns, fuel shortages and the fact that most of them had been destroyed.

A really eye-opening thing is to look up how many tanks the Germans were operating on the western front i n1945, compared to the Allies.

[–]cuddles_the_destroyeThwarted General Winter with a heavy parka 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

I feel like this video series where a Q&A with a series of well-regarded tank historians is a very nice watch and I heartily recommend y'all watch it.

[–]wastedcleverusername 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's worth noting that the Soviets also thought pretty highly of the Lend-Lease Shermans they received and gave them to their elite Guards units. One of the things the crew particularly liked was the extra space for comfort and radio. It's easy to tunnel in on guns and armor, but RMA and other soft factors can be just as important.

[–]nickik 3ポイント4ポイント  (20子コメント)

I do agree that the Sherman was a pretty good tank. However I would say that it was a bit under-gunned. The 75mm served well in the beginning but the 76mm update was a bit underpowered. It seams to me that the Americans should have adopted the British suggestion and have at least half of their tanks set up with the 17pdr.

This would make it possible for them to even fight the Tiger II on a long range.

[–]burgerbob22 14ポイント15ポイント  (5子コメント)

Actually, the 76MM M1 was a pretty good gun. The 17pdr beat it in penetration values but not accuracy. They were comparable in most ways.

Also, the original 75mm was a perfect dual purpose gun. It had a very good HE shell, which is really the most important thing (for most of the tanks, not all of course) to have when your enemy has so few tanks and is entrenched in Europe, fighting a defensive war.

Edit: spelling

[–]nickik 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Im not saying the 76MM was bad, it was pretty good.

As far as I remember the 17pdr had only less accuracy when using the new APDS ammunition. When using the normal ammunition (APCBC) it was fine.

I have certainly read some reports of infantry 17pdr being very accurate.

About HE and infantry support see my other comment: http://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/38gqva/m4_sherman_common_myths/crv830f

[–]jonewerThe library at Louvain fired on the Germans first 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

What's your sauce for the 17lbr being innacurate? I know the US army did some field testing on German tank hulls and commented on its poor accuracy - the British response to which was that the batch of ammo had not been QA'd and was sub-standard.

Were any other studies done on it?

[–]burgerbob22 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Honestly, I don't have one. I know I had seen something to that effect somewhere but I can't place it.

[–]jonewerThe library at Louvain fired on the Germans first 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]krikit386What secrets of the universe will we unlock today, vodka bottle? 4ポイント5ポイント  (13子コメント)

A lot of sherman crews greatly opposed the move from 75mm to 76mm. The 75 had a much better HE shell than the 76mm and 17pdr, and the Sherman was built with infantry support in mind.

[–]nickik 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

I agree. My solution would be to be 50/50 or maybe 66/34 75mm/17 pdr. Or instead of working on the 76mm the should have worked on a better HE infantry support weapon.

It was probably a problem with doctrine. Tank destroyers are well and good, but I think having Tanks hunting enemy Tanks is sometimes pretty good. Your Tanks can be much more aggressive pushing foreword compared to your Tank Destroyers. With the Tank Destroyers you have to more or less wait until you get attacked.

I would probably try to experiment with Fireflys supporting and flanking the infantry/normal M4s.

[–]mrtacoswildride 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Uh, or you can call in some planes/artillery to blow everything up and stick with the cheap, easily maintained tank that can handle almost everything.

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

The Firefly is about as maintainable as every other Sherman. In terms of production I don't see a huge problem. The 17pdr was the a design of the future, used in multiple tanks and also artillery.

Artillery is not always there when you need it. In offensive operation you will often outpace your artillery. The communication of the position is also very hard, specially for a moving tank.

The airplane are overrated as tank destroyers. The german generals always point to air superiority as why the lost, but in detailed studies the later figured out that the majority of the tanks were not destroyed by airplanes. Also if you are in a wooded area the plane has a lot of problem finding the enemy tank.

Another problem with your argument is the simple fact that we KNOW that the Sherman fought other Panzers quite often. They hated fighting the Panther and Tigers because of the bigger guns and the longer range, they had figure out clever ways to flank them. Many Shermans got shut down while trying to do that. If they had 17pdr they could have thought even the King Tiger straight on.

There is also the fact that the german tankers had orders to focus on the Firefly. Because of this the Brits often used clever tricks to make the Firefly look like any other Sherman.

I think the evidence is quite clear.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group 1ポイント2ポイント  (3子コメント)

Exactly how many Tiger IIs do you think the Americans had to deal with?

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes. That question makes sence because having a good weapon only makes sence if you opponent also has a simular weapon.

I don't know. Maybe they could carry around a two guns, and when they see a PIV they can take of the 17pdr and put the 75mm back on. Then you can fairly fight a the PIV. If a Tiger comes around you just switch back. That might be a solution for your argument.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The Tiger II was vanishingly rare, and almost never encountered US tanks; hell, I'm not sure if they ever did. So far as I'm aware, they were mostly fighting the British at Caen or on the Eastern Front. So why would you plan to fight a tank that is hardly even a factor in the war?

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe you don't understand what Im saing. Having a 17pdr (or any better main gun) is also usful to destroy a Tiger, Panther, Stug III, Panzer IV or any other vehicle. So if you have a Firefly and the germans attack with some Panzer IV you will have a massive advantage.

My point was just that EVEN IF you meet a King Tiger you will have a very reasonable chance of destrying it without any loses.

[–]past_is_prologueshockingly... less not true... than you would expect 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

In Normandy (and afterward) Canadian tank troops were set up with at least one 17pdr Firefly and 2-3 75mm. The idea was that the 75's could support the infantry with HE, while the Firefly acted like the troop's bodyguard.

There is a great clip of Radley Walters talking about it, but with WoT it has become much more difficult to find.

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Would be interested in that link.

I knew that the British were deploying troupes that kind of worked like that.

I would like to do some more reading on doctrine at the time.

[–]SphereIsGreat 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Sherman was built with infantry support in mind.

It wasn't. It's jolly that this should pop up in a thread about debunking Sherman myths.

[–]krikit386What secrets of the universe will we unlock today, vodka bottle? 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Can I get a source for that? Everything I've read indicates that it was built to help out the infantry, or at least most of it's missions involved helping the infantry.

[–]SphereIsGreat 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Either Zaloga's Sherman Medium Tank 1942-45 or Hunnicutt's Sherman give detailed development histories.

[–]krikit386What secrets of the universe will we unlock today, vodka bottle? 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alright, I'll have to give those a read. Thanks!

[–]HughJorgens 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Everybody knows the best German tank was the Kabuumenschutzen III.

[–]EdPC 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Octane ratings actually measure resistance to combustion, at least under the higher mechanical compression ratio of an engine. Not sure about how it would effect a fuel fire or cook off event though.

[–]kraggers 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Proably as good a time as any for this

Interesting cross country performance. Although I am sure you are all aware that gun performance and armor are the only possible factors to consider in tank superiority comparisons. The video is just for fun.

[–]RdClZnHence, language is sentient. QED 2ポイント3ポイント  (15子コメント)

The Sherman was actually one of the best armored medium tanks of the war from the front, far better than its equals the much vaunted and revered T-34, and the undervalued Panzer IV.

I would really like if you could elaborate why the T-34 was a piece of crap far inferior than the Sherman.

I mean, specially the initial production versions of the T-34 had a lot of deficiencies, but gun-wise and armor-wise (the focus of your post) it was on the vanguard...
Also, the engine was not bad at all (although the starter had its problems at first).

[–]Thirtyk94WWII was a Zionist conspriacy![S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (10子コメント)

The T-34 is difficult to gauge. I never said it was a piece of crap, merely that the Sherman had it beat in terms of frontal protection. The T-34 had 81 mm of frontal armor where as the Sherman had anywhere from 94-98 mm of effective armor. Armament wise however they were always on-par with each other. The 75 mm M3 gun of the Sherman is roughly equivalent to the F-34 tank gun of the T-34, and the 76 mm M1 gun of the later Sherman tanks is again roughly equivalent to the 85 mm ZiS-S-53 gun of the T-34-85. There are many technical details which make the T-34 not as good of an overall tank as the Sherman, personally the suspension is the biggest problem it had if you ran over a mine or your springs broke or wore out you basically needed a whole new tank. Although getting a whole new tank wasn't as much of a problem for the Russians as they made 84 thousand T-34 tanks of all variants.

[–]RdClZnHence, language is sentient. QED 3ポイント4ポイント  (6子コメント)

You're right, I exaggerated in my interpretation of what you said.
That said, going through the numbers we see the difference is not that high.

T-34 had 81 mm of frontal armor where as the Sherman had anywhere from 94-98 mm of effective armor. Armament wise however they were always on-par with each other. The 75 mm M3 gun of the Sherman is roughly equivalent to the F-34 tank gun of the T-34, and the 76 mm M1 gun of the later Sherman tanks is again roughly equivalent to the 85 mm ZiS-S-53 gun of the T-34-85.

The 81mm value for the T-34's frontal hull armor that is on wiki seems incorrect. According to the Experimental Report NO. WAL 640/91¹ from the Watertown Arsenal Laboratory the thickness of the from plates of the T-34 varied in thickness between 1 7/8 inch and 2 inches.

The slope value for the plates can be found in the soviet report CAMD RF 38-11355-2867, which was translated for our convenience. Said value is 60° from the vertical axis.

This gives us anywhere between 95 mm and 101.6 mm of effective frontal armor. But that is the experimental value, a result of the harsh realities of production line quality-control; the nominal value is 45 mm of plate thickness, leading to 90 mm of nominal effective armor. ²

The effective nominal thickness of the Sherman goes from ~89 mm (for the early production variant, M4A1) to the 98 mm quoted by you on late variants. 08 mm is not a very significant difference...³

There are many technical details which make the T-34 not as good of an overall tank as the Sherman, personally the suspension is the biggest problem it had if you ran over a mine or your springs broke or wore out you basically needed a whole new tank. Although getting a whole new tank wasn't as much of a problem for the Russians as they made 84 thousand T-34 tanks of all variants.

If a T-34's suspension was destroyed, knowing it was housed between the armor plates and the crew compartment, we can pretty much infer the tank is a loss... This is the situation with most tanks, actually.

I had read a U.S DoD report on tank casualties during WW2, using Canadian, UK and U.S Army operation data. The results showed that a considerable majority of all tank losses where due to transportation/march accidents or mines.

The document's name is: "ORO Survey of Allied Tank Casualties of WWII".
It was also quite cheap. Unfortunately I lost my file copy, so I can't give you detailed information.

As I said, in terms of combat capability/performance, I don't think the T-34 was far worse than the Sherman at all.

¹ The document whose title is: Metallurgical Examination of Armor and Weld Joint Samples from Russian Medium Tank T-34 and Heavy Tank KV-1

² This can be calculated has: Te = T/cos(θ) with θ being the slope angle from the vertical axis.

³ A link with quite a number of sources within

edit: Sorry for the terrible english. It's not my mother tongue and it is quite late...

edit2: Forgot a reference.

[–]LeuCeaMia 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

The 81mm value for the T-34's frontal hull armor that is on wiki seems incorrect. According to the Experimental Report NO. WAL 640/91¹ from the Watertown Arsenal Laboratory the thickness of the from plates of the T-34 varied in thickness between 1 7/8 inch and 2 inches.

It's based on WoT game mechanics were all AP shells used to normalize by 8 degrees. No surprise which German wehraboo clings to such inaccurate BS, book my ass.

² This can be calculated has: Te = T/cos(θ) with θ being the slope angle from the vertical axis.

That's for effective armour against HEAT. AP is a bit more involved(from "WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery").

[–]RdClZnHence, language is sentient. QED 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's based on WoT game mechanics were all AP shells normalize by 8 degrees.

Well, that's funny!

That's for effective armour against HEAT. AP is a bit more involved(from "WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery").

I'm using this geometric derivation of "effective armor" only for the sake of comparison between the two (since it represents one consistent metric) not for estimating the actual effectiveness of them in combat.

Although this material you sourced seems interesting, I'll give it a look, thank you.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's easy, I suppose, to let your opinion be colored by the T-34/85's performance in Korea. I don't recall the specifics, but 76mm Shermans racked up a pretty impressive kill ratio.

[–]RdClZnHence, language is sentient. QED 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm definitively not letting my "opinion be colored by the T-34/85's performance in Korea". But when one states "tank X is best/worse than Y" you can either mean two things:

  • It's better for the requirements of an specific Army.

  • It's technically better/worse.

T-34 doesn't qualify for neither of those. It's not technically far inferior to the Sherman and definitely not far less adequate to the necessities of the Red Army at the time.

There are many variable[s] on "kill ratio", it's very unreliable to use it as a mean of comparison between two military vehicles.

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Would you agree that the T-34 was cheap? In the Soviet Society the concept of a price does make sense. It has a aluminum motor and both the german or the american tanks don't do the same. Guderian clearly says that they evaluated the T34 and some people wanted to copy it but most thought that the aluminum supply was to valuable.

Its a really complicated question to answer. The clearly were able to build quite a few of those.

[–]RdClZnHence, language is sentient. QED 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think it was "cheap". But I do think a lot of its deficiencies were due to the available production-line machinery, metallurgical quality control and the workers available (since a large portion of the skilled labor force has been mobilized to fight the war) to the USSR at the time.

For example, the amount of alloy elements in the steel used by the T-34 was praised by all U.S analysis: They used fairly large amounts [of] alloying elements to increase hardenability, i.e, it used a relatively expensive alloy.

But clearly most of USSR's plants during the first stages of the war weren't equipped to keep high quality control (avoiding contamination of the plates, for example). The assembly plants had equipment that wouldn't be able to access many points in the T-34 hull and turret, which had to be manually welded by relatively unskilled workers very quickly to ensure production speed, resulting in the noticed poor quality of weld.

So, although the design and materials were not low-quality at all, the reality of the soviet industry require design compromises and lowered the final quality of the tank.

[–]LeuCeaMia 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

The T-34 had 81 mm of frontal armor where as the Sherman had anywhere from 94-98 mm of effective armor.

You do realize that wikipedia is actually basing it off World of Tanks game mechanics, outdated ones at that. It assumes quite ridiculously that AP shells normalize by 8 degrees. Here's a more accurate formula from WWII Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery. and also the pre-computed table for common WW2 tanks.

[–]Thirtyk94WWII was a Zionist conspriacy![S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I knew the thickness of the armor plate on the T-34 but I couldn't find the angle it was at, which means I couldn't calculate the effective thickness of the plate. I went with what I had available for the T-34. For the M4 numbers I knew the angle, 56 degrees, so I was able to calculate the effective thickness of the plate which is 94-98 mm.

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

[–]RdClZnHence, language is sentient. QED 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

I had read this, yes. As I said: The T-34 had certainly many deficiencies. But this author seems to be somewhat biased (or maybe he just forgot some details).

For example, he compares the Panther's KwK 42 and T-34/85 ZiS-S-52 ZiS-S-53. He says the KwK 42 has much better accuracy and penetration performance. The only support he gave for his claim is the muzzle velocity, which is superior on the KwK 42.

In reality, the difference in penetration was minimal, 119 mm against 150 mm at 100 m range, 90° incidence. One may argue that this is a soviet test and that the german tests showed different results! That can be explained by the different methods employed by both countries in cannon performance evaluation. But by looking at the gun specifications of each, we find that the muzzle energy of both cannons were not that different (using the 9.02kg figure for the ZiS gun, and these figures for the KwK), more specifically 2.83MJ against 3.08MJ, which makes a similar penetration seem more plausible...

At the same time the Sherman 7.5cm gun had not only a lighter and smaller projectile, but 100 m/s less of muzzle velocity than the soviet 76mm F-34! Clearly a less capable cannon, yet the blog post states it is "the same"...

About the metallurgy, the brittleness was a concern for the analysts, but the field loss analysis of the T-34 revealed only 3.9% of them suffered brittle failure of armor.

But I agree that the T-34 had many problems: Vibration, radio-communication/optics/starter of early variant, the clutch was a huge problem, lack of turret basket and survivability after a fire or penetration. But in many aspects it was superior or equal to the Sherman.

[–]nickik 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you. Food for thought.

[–]LeuCeaMia 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Peter Samsonov debunks that article quite throughly.

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/p/christos.html