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METAMETA: This is how we get our shit together. (self.KotakuInAction)

Kinbaku_enthusiast が 投稿

We are spilling spaghetti everywhere and we can do better.

But we need to get over this bullshit and we need to get the root causes of it fixed quickly, before we lose good people to the current infighting.

There's three things you should know:

1.There's brigading attempts to divide our community. http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/37xrmu/i_have_created_a_true_free_speech_alternative_to/ http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/37xtw6/our_problems_with_the_new_rules/

Since these accounts were less than a month old and quickly deleted after it's safe to say that people are putting pressure on the cohesity of our community. They're trying to drive a wedge between moderators and community. For each counts the following advice: err on the side of trust, not distrust. Trust, but verify.

This kind of brigading shows that there's still people who try to stop us from making the various amounts of progress we've made. Our response should be to unite and set aside some of our personal differences.

I think if we highlight these attempts, that it would help others understand the kind of work you do and it would unite us agains the people who would like to see us fail.

2.A well respected community member, /u/basedicloud/ was banned for... for what exactly?

https://archive.is/0Uhc3#selection-2517.0-2517.117

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGWvjhlWwAEvMpg.png:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGWqVvBXEAENN6b.png:large

Well it landed on subredditcancer. This is a step backwards for us, but it was bound to happen at least once.

We have to learn from this and learn from this quickly. And when I see we, I mean the moderators.

3.The mods are steadily losing the confidence of the community.

There is a general sense that the moderators are ignoring community opinions.

Rather than assume anything, I've gone through the last couple of comments of each moderator and archived them.

Now it's easy to point and say: "You're doing this wrong!", just as it's easy to say: "downvotes are brigades!", so let's do the hard thing that will help us get past this painful point: trust, but verify.

It's clear from the votes that most people don't like the idea of removing social justice stuff to another subreddit, whether that becomes big or not. If we ran this subreddit like other subreddits, we'd be as succesful as other subreddits. But you know what? We're one of the most active subreddits. We're one of the most succesful subreddits in getting shit done.

Let's keep doing the thing that works.

Now, if I look through the history of the mods and how people have voted it's very clear. Keep the socjus stuff here.

Also: the new mods gammaking and chaos are doing very badly. They're posting things I would expect from the least of our members and if I were in charge I would de-mod them immediately or put them on a probation period.

Some medicine tastes bad. But if you swallow it quickly and run with it, we'll be healthy in no time.

Wake up and don't crash this plane.

Also, tell me where I'm wrong. I know I'm not the smartest one in the sub.

Source:

David https://archive.is/8WS1U

Verdict: no kotakuinaction activity

Community opinion: no data/ irrelevant

the hat https://archive.is/2aLek

Verdict: downvoted unless he makes an apology for a mistake

Community opinion: distrust and disagreement

flerps https://archive.is/9mkqN

Verdict: posts more in TIA than KIA

Community opinion: no data/ irrelevant

iamsupernova https://archive.is/CZ3Cc

Verdict: informative posts that are upvoted

Community opinion: contribution is appreciated

strawredditor https://archive.is/GFXQN

Verdict: frequently downvoted for supporting the move of sjw stuff off of KIA OR writing responses while clearly not reading well

Community opinion: disagreement and a growing distrust

Brimshae https://archive.is/K32yD

Verdict: Upvoted except when explicitly supporting the hat or the removal of sjw content

Community opinion: contribution is appreciated, support of sjw removal isn't.

GGathena https://archive.is/qa2RF

Verdict: Mostly warning people that they're shadowbanned

Community opinion: Don't get upvoted much, but I'll take a leap of faith that we think this is excellent work.

Logan_Mac https://archive.is/8Ahtv

Verdict: upvoted a lot generally, except when mentioning the ban of basedicloud

Community opinion: Good contributions. basedicloud should not have been banned.

MannoSlimmins https://archive.is/S4P6J

Verdict: downvoted is removing a lot of posts for violating rule 1

Community opinion: some downvotes for most removals, lots of downvotes for snarky downtalking to the community

AntithesisD https://archive.is/LjeGN

Verdict: Mix of upvotes and downvotes on kia. Downvoted only when taking a middle of the road position between the removal of SJW stuff and to not do so.

Community opinion: You're doing alright but your current position regarding the removal of sjw stuff should lean further to not removing as much

Chaos https://archive.is/THIaG

Verdict: consistently heavily downvoted, except when presenting evidence (without further comment), then upvoted.

Community opinion: Most of us disagree with the things you're saying, but you use good sources

GammaKing https://archive.is/nr9GC

Verdict: consistently heavily downdvoted

Community opinion: Most of us disagree with the things you're saying

spooc https://archive.is/Mqu04

Verdict: downvoted for supporting socjus posts to be TEXT ONLY. Doesn't post much

Community opinion: It's becoming a trend. Don't remove the socjus stuff and don't prune it in some way either

Edit: thanks kind stranger for contributing the first gold I have received. I'm sure it will help to build to a more glorious tomorrow for chairman Pao. 84% upvotes is heartening. Stand united.

Some people are rightly criticizing the poor proof for brigading I bring. I may be mistaken on this issue, I'm not sure. I don't have time to research it anymore, but maybe someone can give this an in depth look:

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/382x0j/meta_this_is_how_we_get_our_shit_together/crrzqrz

Edit 2: Spooc and chaos appear to no longer be mods and ibasedcloud's tempban has been reversed by loganmac.

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[–]MentalBeaver 149ポイント150ポイント  (85子コメント)

This subreddit has become my one stop shop for news and information for Gamergate and other related happenings and I, personally, would prefer that it remains that way.

I have no issues with the drama posts, the people posts or even the off-topic posts (such as the Comicgate or whatever the Batgirl comic cover issue was/is called) as I just skim over the stuff I'm not as interested in or use the filters to get to the stuff I am.

KiA has, on the whole, been a nice and polite place.

[–]95snowman 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm with the beaver, I actually enjoy the broad overview KiA threads give me on GG and the gaming SJW craziness which I find provides quite a bit more context for everything

コメントをもっと表示する (84 返事)

    [–]AkudraA-cool-dra 20ポイント21ポイント  (4子コメント)

    During the stream the mods stated that the complaint system is the basis of their rules and it is completely anonymous, meaning they don't know who is making the complaints or how many are making the complaints. In other words, the very thing they are invoking as the basis for the rule changes is open to brigading by a very small group of unidentifiable people or literally just one person as one mod acknowledged.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Damn, that's easily gamed. Is there a way to change this?

    [–]RavenscroftRaven 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Have all grievances and mod issues in the open. We post using our accounts. It will be obvious if anyone posting concerns is not doing so sincerely.

    Of course, they cannot have the mod section being open, transparency is too scary.

    [–]PadaV4 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

    So they are listening to some anonymous shills complaining in modmail, while shitting on the community openly telling them that they dont agree with the direction they want to take the sub. Just great. Mods have went full retard.

    [–]mybowlofchips 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    During the stream the mods stated that the complaint system is the basis of their rules and it is completely anonymous,

    Could they not see how easy this could be co-opted by SJWs? Their MO is complaining about everything and anyone.

    [–]anusmang 60ポイント61ポイント  (11子コメント)

    Remove GammaKing, Cha0s and MannoSlimmins

    They haven't been here long, they break the rules they are here to enforce and harbour serious disdain for the community. They can be easily replaced.

    Edit: Looks like Cha0s has left, thankfully. Now MannoSlimmins and GammaKing still need to go.

    [–]pyrateboy 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Throwing my support behind this as well.

    [–]Klaw117 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I would agree with this as well. The other, more established mods haven't done much harm apart from wanting to move SJW stuff out of KiA, but I consistently see these newer three mods stir up stuff in the community. They seem to be the ones dragging down the reputation of the rest of the mods, and it looks like the ones who want to divide us are capitalizing on that.

    [–]todiwan 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yep, I agree.

    [–]PadaV4 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Dont forget hat.

    [–]highlordbubbles 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah hat really is the biggest problem here.

    [–]codeGrit 102ポイント103ポイント  (56子コメント)

    I stil don't understand why the mods are so obsessed with removing the SJW stuff. It's extremely clear to me that ethical violations and SJW go hand in hand. Certainly every ethical violation isn't by a SJW, and every SJW doesn't act unethically.. but those seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

    It's not unlike the moral crusaders of the 80s and 90s. It was impossible to separate them from the hard core bible thumpers. By disallowing the discussion of one, you make the discussion of the other impossible.

    And maybe that's what they want, who knows. All I know is it's stupid, especially when the community has said they don't want the posts removed. The mods have taken a "I know better than you" approach lately, and it all started when the new mods were appointed (read: not voted).

    It won't kill #GamerGate (You can't kill an idea), but it will most likely mean one more meeting place going down the drain. And that's sad, but it is what it is.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 45ポイント46ポイント  (12子コメント)

    It's because it's not politically correct. It's not mainstream.

    Whenever you veer from the norm, you catch a lot of criticism. It's also the only space where you can make a meaningful difference.

    In this way we look like sjw's, because in a sense we're activists. There's crucial differences though: 1. we're not in power, 2. we hold each other acccountable.

    Holding each other accountable may be hard some time, but it's also why we get shit done. It's much more productive and meritocratic in the long run.

    I think the mods want to address that criticism, but they're looking at the wrong place to fix.

    Also, nope, it won't kill #gamergate, but it would deal a serious blow.

    [–]VidiotGamerTrigger Warning: Misogynerd 22ポイント23ポイント  (10子コメント)

    It's because it's not politically correct. It's not mainstream.

    That's actually kind of a bullshit answer.

    As someone who doesn't usually complain, I have been vocal before when KiA starts to get cluttered with (in my opinion) random bullshit SJW drama posts. I don't care what some f-list celebrities wife says on twitter and I don't understand why we need 5 threads about it, right?

    I do understand that sometimes "news is slow" and because of that there is a lot of garbage sitting around, but I do feel fairly strongly that allowing "SJW" posts that are gaming related or games media related was a pretty solid compromise.

    You see, for me (and maybe other people as well) I don't want to see this place co-opted by people who are just culture warriors. I want gaming to be the forefront of this sub - if the SJW stupidity comes along with that, that's fine, but random shit about some clown at a university tweeting about "#KillAllWhiteMen" or some other nonsense is not interesting to me as a gamer. There are other subs for that focus on just that kind of stuff and I can visit them if I want to. That's entire point of having subscriptions after all...

    I have something stupid, like 22k comment karama just from this sub but I've stopped contributing as much as I have in the past because I honestly get tired of all the lame drama posts.

    I'll state this pretty bluntly here, but if you lose people like me, then all that's going to be left is people who just care about SJW nonsense first and maybe might give a rats ass about gaming. Maybe.

    I don't think KiA is ever in danger of being co-opted by SJW's. Hell, that idea is laughable. However, I've already seen more than a few attempts by people like MRA's or neo-conservatives, or just plain reactionaries, attempt to align themselves with GamerGate through KiA. I've been pleasantly surprised that we've avoided for the most part turning into the redpill redux, but it's a constant danger that I think the mods are trying to remain vigilant against.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

    It's a good point and well argued.

    As I said earlier, I'm sure there will be some posts by people that are smarter than me.

    I don't know much about redpill and as a result I'm not sure why that's a danger to be careful of (feel free to educate me if you feel so inclined), but I agree that it's valuable to be aware of being co-opted.

    The one thing that I would like to add to your perspective is it's often the same people causing both shirtgate and gamers are dead media blitz:

    http://deepfreeze.it/journo.php?j=chris_plante

    [–]Forgetaboutthelonely 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I don't know much about redpill and as a result I'm not sure why that's a danger to be careful of

    TRP as its called is sort of an offshoot of PUA. But where PUA is a loosely defined set of tips and tricks to improve your chances with women. TRP is sort of like an ideology. The core beliefs are that women have the advantage in life and dating because society favours them. And that in order for men to take back that advantage they need to become more dominant or "alpha" which in many cases borders on mentally abusive behaviour.

    The vested interest lies in a common enemy.

    Sjws are seen as the main force in society behind the double standards and advantages women have.

    [–]mybowlofchips 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    which in many cases borders on mentally abusive behaviour.

    Source bro? I remember the TRP before it became a subreddit and was just an idea floating around blogs. The basic core was:

    You suck with women so you need to hit the gym, dress better, stop being needy, learn to lead (e.g, get the number, make the dates, kiss her first etc), find interests/hobbies outside of women etc..

    [–]Forgetaboutthelonely 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    IIRC there's some threads I remember a while ago mentioning different types of Pavlovian conditioning type things.

    But honestly I'm not finding them. My opinions are changing the more I'm browsing.

    [–]Forgetaboutthelonely 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    people like MRA's or neo-conservatives, or just plain reactionaries, attempt to align themselves with GamerGate through KiA

    I'm probably one of the people you're talking about. I know I did have a fairly popular post discussing something along those lines.

    My point was simply that the two groups share a common enemy. And have faced similar criticisms.

    [–]ToTheNintieth 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes, thank you.

    [–]Chrono_Nexus -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah that sums up my observations too.

    [–]indigoanasazi 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I have something stupid, like 22k comment karama

    if you lose people like me

    Nobody cares.

    [–]HowAboutShutUp -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is largely the way that I feel too, though most of what I contributed was done from a previous account.

    Honest to fucking god people, didn't they just say you could keep posting some of that crap as long as its a self post? At that point you're just being a whiny pissant that the little number next to your name won't go up.

    Fucking know your role and stick to the goal, morons.

    [–]MangledJingleJangle -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is exactly the sentiment that needs to carry the day. Regardless of how much I personally enjoy the SJW content, it is important that it is directly related to GamerGate so as not to lose focus on the main objective of KiA.

    [–]NoBadgerinoPls 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It's because it's not politically correct. It's not mainstream.

    That's bullshit and you know it. Sensationalist, polarizing bullshit is for Gawker sites. It doesn't belong here. Be better than that.

    [–]DataLoreThrowaway 1ポイント2ポイント  (15子コメント)

    Question: How is requiring it to be a self post the same as removing SJW stuff?

    Note: I'm pro keeping the SJW stuff in whatever form. I just don't see the difference between a link and a text post containing a link except some worthless internet points.

    [–]rgamesgotmebanned 13ポイント14ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Because now certain people have to explain themselves while other people not. To me it seems pretty obvious what the intent here was and certainly does seem animal farm-ish.

    [–]DataLoreThrowaway -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Wait, explain themselves? A self post is literally the same thing as a link, it just doesn't generate karma. You could format it the exact same way: "Title" (Description)[Link]

    There's literally no difference and no need to explain themselves. It's just a self post.

    [–]rgamesgotmebanned 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

    You haven't actually read the post about the rule change that was stickied for more than a day, have you?

    [–]DataLoreThrowaway 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I did just now. Sorry I've been away from KiA for a couple days.

    The explanation requirement does seem to be rather silly. Let the community decide with upvotes and downvotes like usual.

    [–]rgamesgotmebanned 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Exactly. And make everything a textpost if you are so afraid of karma whoring (wich is the must absurd pretense and/or boogy man), because then you have leveled the playing field in terms of reddit mechanics (which value links and self-posts differently).

    [–]RavenscroftRaven 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Oh no, the karmas, I might become Dread Lord instead of Illustrious Lord (I kill my karma a little to avoid Glorious Lord, I prefer the 4th title up).

    Wait, that's Ultima Online. And it's karma system is just as relevent to GG as KiA's is.

    [–]codeGrit 10ポイント11ポイント  (8子コメント)

    I view it as just one step in the wrong direction. As the old adage goes "Give an inch, take a mile" ...

    [–]DataLoreThrowaway 0ポイント1ポイント  (5子コメント)

    What's the "wrong" direction here? How is a self post any different?

    [–]codeGrit 11ポイント12ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Because it's different. It's placing special treatment on things the mods have deemed "better". If they wanted to increase quality, they should have made it so all posts had to be self posts.

    It all points back to the mods thinking they know best, which is anti-community. IMO, anyways.

    [–]DataLoreThrowaway -1ポイント0ポイント  (3子コメント)

    It's placing special treatment on things the mods have deemed "better".

    What's special about links vs. self posts? Is one more visible to the front page? Is the other censored in any way?

    [–]codeGrit 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

    What's special about links vs. self posts?

    Only one set of 'content' has specific rules attached to it, the the other does not. It's giving preferential treatment to content the mods have deemed somehow better.

    Why it's better, I don't know. Ask the mods :)

    [–]DataLoreThrowaway 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I managed to dig up the sticky about it, and yep, I agree, the requirement to justify why it's relevant is stupid. Let the community decide what's relevant with upvotes/downvotes.

    [–]SHOW_ME_YOUR_GOATS -3ポイント-2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The slippery slope fallacy is also what its called.

    [–]codeGrit 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Is it a fallacy if history can prove it? How about history of this sub specifically?

    [–]poiumty 26ポイント27ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Post the fucking mod logs.

    Let people see them, let people discuss them, let people gain back their trust in you.

    Post the fucking mod logs.

    There's nowhere to go if you look like you have something to hide. People WILL be suspicious and you are retarded if you expect otherwise.

    Post. The fucking. Mod logs.

    And we can continue with step 2, discussing the fucking mod logs. But for that you have to post the fucking mod logs

    [–]frankenmine/r/WerthamInAction - #ComicGate 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

    SJWs got to where they are right now by colluding every chance they got, in every medium or organization they managed to infiltrate.

    If we had colluded just one percent as much as they did when fighting them, we would have defeated them by now.

    This means not driving wedges between subcommunities and relevant topics — especially the topics of corruption, collusion, ethics, and social justice, which are so fundamentally intertwined as to be inseparable.

    Social justice is corruption, collusion, and unethical conduct. It doesn't work otherwise. It can't get anywhere without these tactics. They are synonymous. Breaking them apart makes no fucking sense.

    [–]evil-doer 26ポイント27ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I didnt hear about basedicloud being banned, he is clearly my most upvoted mod here along with logan_mac. Way ahead of anyone else.

    [–]l0c0dantes 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Icloud wasn't a mod

    [–]evil-doer 21ポイント22ポイント  (1子コメント)

    My mistake.

    Ok, basedicloud was one of my favorite USERS, and logan_mac is my favorite mod. :P

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    tempbanned to be sure, and just now loganmac reversed it.

    It did result in a rather large post at subredditcancer first though

    http://np.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/37w5qj/meta_updates_to_moderation_policy_flairs_and/

    And there was a threat to make it permanent if he didn't behave.

    [–]2yph0n 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hey as long as the mods accepts that fighting the SJWs is a part of GamerGate and those contents are to be disseminated via KiA, I'm cool with anything.

    [–]subhorizonKOBS Reject | Happy Camper 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'd like to shamelessly point to how I opposed banning SJW posts in the off-topic post meta thread a month ago by thehat.

    For those too lazy to click the link, I'll summarize. Many supporters come here for the SJW posts, and those posts help keep activity and numbers when the updates of gaming journalism ethic posts are infrequent.

    Alienating a population of people within this community simply because they don't have the narrative you agree with should ring the bells of hypocrisy for those of you who believe that. If it doesn't, then you all are driving a wedge that will chip supporters away from the movement.

    You may as well have said, "anti-SJW supporters of Gamergate are dead."

    [–]SylaisPG 34ポイント35ポイント  (11子コメント)

    It seems to be that the problems are a direct result of the moderation team getting burned out. Perhaps a simple solution is to introduce a revolving mod team system.
    Have two separate teams of moderators that cycle every 30-90 days. This could help alleviate stress from having to consistently moderate a forum, and allows a break from the barrage of criticism that comes from having power and/or authority.
    This system was used in an old WoW raiding guild that I was part of years ago, and I later introduced the same system to a minecraft server I was an admin for. Both times it worked quite well. Maybe it'll help here.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 20ポイント21ポイント  (9子コメント)

    Would support as long as we vet the new moderators carefully.

    [–]TwilightShadow1 5ポイント6ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Perhaps it would be best to leave one mod in charge to handle the transition, but not do any actual moderation him/herself. That way the sub couldn't be stollen by rouge mods.

    [–]Dinapuff 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    It already is by mister top hat.

    [–]SylaisPG 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Evidence to such an accusation?

    [–]Dinapuff 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The fact that there are a dozen meta threads about the changes on KIA don't tip you off that the people wanting change are doing so because a tiny faction of mods perceives itself to be in charge?

    [–]jeb0r 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

    this!, god it's difficult to find people on the level :)

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

    No it isn't, most people are on the level.

    Although this leadership structure is always wildly successful, suggesting it is always rather unpopular in my experience.

    [–]jeb0r 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I mean more, actually having trust the person is on the level. we are all strangers and have personal agendas. I know post history and stuff can help but being a mod is stressful and can cause good people to do stupid things.

    [–]Flaktrack 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Finding mods for my GMOD and Minecraft servers who don't turn into power-tripping retards a week later is quite a chore. No amount of "this isn't a gift, this is a responsibility" stops these people from thinking they're special snowflakes. I've banned more mods than players.

    Any moderator put in to the sub should be vetted by the public, voted on, and their position should be probationary for 3 months, during which they can only suggest bans to be approved by other mods. Should a significant amount of regulars take offense to the new mod, they should be removed immediately. If they believe they were removed wrongly they can then ask for proper discussion/investigation.

    Moderating is not supposed to be a position of power, it is one of responsibility. By becoming a mod you should be one of the least free people on the sub, chained to the rules you uphold except in the absolute worst of circumstances.

    The few people I can trust to administrate my stuff this way are gold to me, and believe me when I say only about 5% of the players I've ever met were mod material. Of those that asked or applied for the position, none were good enough. As usual, the best leaders and managers tend to be the ones who never wanted it.

    [–]RavenscroftRaven 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The best leaders do want it, all fairness. At least a little. Wars aren't won by pacifists who don't want to fight (qualifier added because Gandhi was a pacifist who did want to fight and lead).

    Unless you're aiming for a leaderless movement. Then the most recaltricient mods would be the best ones.

    If you elect me for mod duties, I solemnly swear it will be merely a title on the sidebar and not bother to do anything at all with it except give myself a flair. In fact, I elect myself right now: As of this moment, I am a non-mod. I will not moderate things or delete the posts of others or implement controversial changes or "improve the community unilaterally" or any of that jazz.

    I'll just shitpost as usual.

    [–]MrFatalistic 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    How bad is it honestly? I think we self-moderate better than most subs out there, there's a tinge of downvoting if your opinion is "it's only about ethics, SJW offtopic" but I'd argue that's because you'd have to be blind not to see SJWs are part of the reason this problem exists.

    [–]azriel777 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

    There is a general sense that the moderators are ignoring community opinions.

    Less of a sense and more of a fact.

    [–]NocturnalQuill 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hatman and Gamma have to go, period. Hatman no longer represents the wishes of the community, and Gamma doesn't care about it.

    [–]lordthat100188 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Mannoslims is JUST as bad as cha0s. BOTH of them act horridly and should be removed ASAP, same with gammaking.

    [–]SoCaljuicetiswarrior 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Honestly, all hat does is complain about how hard it is, is the sub worth saving etc. like he's some sort of martyr. Compounded by the newer mods being snarky shits and shitposters like swami stirring the pot, I dont know man. Something has gotta change or it'll eventually implode.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Things are changing right now. Chaos is no longer a mod, but I don't know if this was his decision or someone else's. Same for spooc.

    Hopefully this is behind us in 48 hours.

    [–]MrFatalistic 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

    What the shit is going down? Censorship of opinions and content was what we're NOT about, what the fuck mods? Call it whatever you want, you don't like our voices so you're doing what you can to minimize it.

    The more I read the more I don't know how the mods can be saying the bullshit they're saying, Mods, you're getting MASSIVELY DOWNVOTED AT EVERY TURN. Want to call that a loud minority? We think you are rather fucked. You can spin this however you want, get defensive and justify your actions, short of recognizing, you dun fucked up, all of it is a mistake.

    [–]madhousechild 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    They characterize this as being about karma, which is so disingenuous. I bet nobody could give a single shit about karma (reddit's kind, that is). Frankly I don't care if someone posts good stories all day long only for the karma. If they post crap, we sort it out. We are not babies.

    There's very little I could think of that really needs to be moderated here. The only thing that annoys me is how we get ninety posts about the same thing for a hot topic.

    [–]chelseavanvalkenburg 16ポイント17ポイント  (45子コメント)

    This whole post feels like a call to "middle ground" trying to get people to accept brigades are happening.

    Brigades are not happening, this voting is entirely consistant with how it has been since the start in regards to censorship.

    Nice to see the usual hardline members of the mod defence force here being strangely reasonable because they want people to swallow the brigade angle.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (37子コメント)

    It's a call to find unity again.

    Of course brigades happen and will happen. Whether false flags or false false flags etc.

    I think we should take into account that it's understandable for mods to have some trepidation taking every vote on every post 100% accurately.

    But there's a reason the community keeps speaking up about this and they should wake up and realize that yes, it's us voting. We're voting them down. And it's not even about everything mods do, just the socjus stuff.

    It's been pushed further and further from the center and up until now it was managable and I think it's come to a point where it would be actively damaging.

    I'm writing this with empathy for both sides because I want us to unite about this. And we're not going to unite about this unless mods realize it's the majority of the community that wants the socjus stuff on here.

    [–]chelseavanvalkenburg 10ポイント11ポイント  (36子コメント)

    We don't need to unite, the mods are but what 7 or 9 people acting like dicks ?

    Gamergate is about the people who make it up, we have no leaders. We do not need to accept something blatantly untrue as true to reach a compromise that involves us giving up ground and rights for no reason.

    There has been no brigading of note on this topic and you have no proof.

    What needs to happen is people here on reddit need to wake the fuck up and realise a subreddit name and some moderators mean nothing and they can change to a different subreddit with no issues.

    That however is up to them to decide, but they should not let things settle down like hat tried to do with his holiday.

    We heard them all on the stream acting like condescending little children with absolute disregard for what gg stands for and it's users. Only an idiot would trust them with a shred of power right now.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Hi new account that claims to have a lot of moderator experience.

    Yes, we do need to unite.

    Not all mods are acting like dicks and I'm not even convinced some mods are acting like dicks all the time.

    The shilling is real.

    Here's this posters history: https://archive.is/ehlbe

    [–]PadaV4 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The account is 7 months old and you accuse him of being too new? Gamergate itself isnt much older you know. Shadowbanning and throwaway accounts exist too. Account age means nothing. Either attack the argument or STFU. And to spare you the hassle of stalking me, my account is a bit short from 1 year.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I did attack the argument. Scroll down.

    But you're right, this was a low blow of me.

    Also upvoted. Good criticism.

    [–]chelseavanvalkenburg 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    New account yeah... You notice the username too ?

    I took it as a joke name but decided against drumming up more trouble with it.

    Not all mods are acting like dicks, go listen to the livestream they did then dare tell me that's true.

    Also going through my post history to discredit me, go fuck yourself you witch hunting little sjw.

    Only person who seems to be shilling here is you, not I.

    [–]mybowlofchips 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Did you read his/her name:

    chelsea van valkenberg...either the woman herself posts here or this is someone else's troll account (likely to avoid a banhammering) so who knows what experience they have on their main

    [–]AlseidesDD 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Thanks for the succinct summary.

    Still checking out everything but so far, everything seems to be factually accurate as possible without misrepresentation or spin.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thanks for verifying!

    It should be worth noting that this is a small sample. (just one page of posts)

    Anyone is welcome to take a bigger sample.

    I hope the mods are big enough people to learn from this and move forward. It's in their hands whether this is a minor setback, or a huge blow.

    [–]weltallic 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    KiaModLeaks when?

    [–]Lulzorr 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

    No, Fuck all this.

    I'm out.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I'm sorry. I was hoping to achieve the opposite result.

    [–]Lulzorr 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It's okay, I'm no one so it doesn't matter.

    The steady decline over the last yearish (9-10 months, I know) has been unbearable. the shifts in focus, the crying/kicking/screaming drama, the moderation upheavals, the outright discarding of user-base opinion. seems even fullchan is having these problems.

    It'll probably be better for me, anyway. To dissociate and compartmentalize.

    GG

    Edit: I should note that I am not directing this at the OP, it's a good solid post.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Good game mate. You know that to those committed to this, we'll always keep the door open for you if you ever change your mind.

    GG.

    [–]bluelandwail 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Thank you for avoiding feelings and faux neutrality. Good post. As an aside: I think we should all be aware of the twitter posts as well, specifically Hat's.

    [–]Smokratez 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I see no reason why he would have to talk with Brianna Wu about anything, especially in a friendly manner.

    [–]bluelandwail 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I mean things like this:

    On "shit stirrers" on the livestream: https://twitter.com/TheHat2/status/605161803300126720

    On critics of the decision: https://twitter.com/TheHat2/status/605006067362373633

    There's many, many, many more, however, I'm at work and on mobile, so I can't spend too much time stalking his Twitter account right now.

    [–]jeb0r 9ポイント10ポイント  (17子コメント)

    Also to add to the summary.

    there are a few concerns I've seen. (though a few users refused to state what about it upsets them)

    one is a misconception, they think that

    • A: They can no longer post SJW stuff or more deletions/removals will happen

    or

    • B: need mod approval for it. so it would be post >mod approval > community approval

    both are false, as seen in recent posts with socjus tag/ot and by their (mods) message (see below)

    The following reasons are really really opinionated so come to your own conclusion

    • C: This is a form of censorship (in the argument that you can't post kiddie porn/death threats, yes I guess...) though they are not stopping you from posting the same stuff nor policing the tone/morals, just need to do a couple more steps for some things. These extra steps though some believe are a stepping stone to more horrible changes on the horizon.and these may very well be valid

    • D: Any change to this sub by a mod without EXPRESS CONSENT/fully included discussion from the community is an attack against the community.

    arguments for both sides go from KIA = GG and must follow the wishes of GG (though last poll seemed to show a 50% divide on this issue but the numbers were 1/30th of the subs actually participated (possibly 1/20th?) and straw polls aren't ,unfortunately, great data but possibly can give you an idea)

    however at this time: the only change is you need to submit Socjus/OT tagged things as text with text stating why it pertains to gg, no matter how weak an argument you make it is then up to the COMMUNITY (meaning users) to vote it up or down. And previous posts they would outright delete, they will actually message the OP to give them a sub to post to in case they have no idea where to go to discuss.

    the other is because they think Hat orchestrated this, though the rest of the mods stated they knew this was an issue and knew Hat had stated things before, so they decided without hat (which is why gamma wrote it) how they wanted to proceed and came up with this while hat was on vacation, because at best, this is a divided issue.

    On top of this we had admitted attempts of shilling from trolls stating they had access to a large amount of accounts and would attack from swami? or someshit, I can't find the link,

    ^ take this with a grain of salt

    so disclaimer: I've spoken loudly and quite from the hip against people who I thought were just pushing an agenda (though obviously I can/could be wrong) as they refused to discuss why these changes effected them. so my opinion is definitely painted in this. The few i've seen state a reason seemed to me to be either a pessimistic future outcome or a misreading of the article.

    as always, make sure to read the things yourself, critically think and come to your own conclusion. my opinions are biased.

    edit: if you wish for source material I will dig it up again. Sorry I was drunk and like to chill out here with people :3 so my brainsing isn't that great ;D

    edit(2): regarding /u/basedicloud/ 's ban, was for breaking rules 1 & 3, multiple times, He is aware it is temp and he will be back in a short while.

    I'm not justifying it, just if you don't know the reasons or that it is temp, this is now (and has been) public knowledge

    source: I modmailed and got a quick response with details.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 18ポイント19ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Of course there will be brigades, we have some successes, we're one of the most active subreddits and to infiltrate us is ridiculously easy.

    For you only the question: why was ibasedcloud banned?

    [–]jeb0r -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I mod messaged and got an answer and I have verification, it's at this point been told to me it is a tempban for a couple days because heads were running hot and he broke rules 1 & 3, (multiple times and after warnings)

    If you were around you must know that people were screamingly furious. so I can understand, think of it more a timeout than anything. Editsnipeyoudidn'tseethis: I can't at this time form a strong opinion if it was right or wrong, I don't know their history, reactions, etc...

    take it as you may, but he knows it is temp

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 20ポイント21ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes. And did you read the posts that supposedly broke these rules?

    They were all upvoted and for good cause imho:

    https://archive.is/OL7hP

    It was a bullshit decision.

    [–]jeb0r -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I did now, sorry, didn't click the one where you showed it was temp, saw just the ban text.

    [–]FSMhelpusall 33ポイント34ポイント  (10子コメント)

    Rules 1 and 3 are entirely arbitrary.

    On the mod stream, they said that people who disagree with them are acting in bad faith.

    [–]TheCyberGlitch 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Rule 3 is essentially Trust but Verify. The admins say these rules are not going to be used for censorship. They say they have no plans to delete Off Topic self posts as long as some relation is made, no matter how poor it is in their judgement.

    Even when the mods expicitly stated "THE MODS WILL NOT REMOVE ANY POSTS THAT WE THINK ARE POORLY ARGUED." BasediCloud claimed that exact sentence shows the mods' secretly horrible intentions. He wasn't there for a reasonable discussion. He wasn't trusting but verifying the mods' intentions, despite their great track record of avoiding censorship this last year. He lacked good faith...instead choosing to demonize the mods no matter what they said.

    Without good faith there's no point in discussion. There's nothing to gain trying to defend yourself if literally anything you say is seen as having some evil motive. We should be judging these people by their actions, not baseless allegations that they have some nefarious plan in mind with these changes.

    [–]Dinapuff 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

    We have nothing to verify and there is no trust. The mods will not release their chatlogs to us, and are not acting in good faith.

    [–]lordthat100188 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Go over u/gammaking s comment history in here. U/cha0s s comment history and Mannos comment history. They broke rule 1 and 3 FAR fucking harder than Based and far more often. They are why i will NEVER trust that the mods are acting in good faith. Because they have proven they arent.

    [–]jeb0r -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm only posting what I know. I don't have a record of it, it isn't permanent.

    edit: (though even a tempshitty ban would be shitty) man,

    modlife is actually hard as you have your own biases to contend with and the less vocal masses we can't see along with all the stuff we do and you have all your subs able to critique your decisions :P ><

    [–]StrawRedditorMod - @strawtweeter[M] -7ポイント-6ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Pretty good summary IMO

    [–]ArtemisiaPoppycock 5ポイント6ポイント  (27子コメント)

    Why are you using the voting system to gauge community opinions on the moderators immediately after pointing out the rampant vote manipulation making this system wildly inaccurate?

    [–]derram_2 18ポイント19ポイント  (25子コメント)

    No one has pointed out vote manipulation yet. He said people are making new subs in an attempt to divide us.

    The mods have blamed brigading, but have provided no proof of it. And, I'm sorry, but vague accusations of "8chan did it" don't work when aGG tries to blame us for doxxing and they're not gonna work here either.

    It is clear how the community feels about this and they are voting accordingly.

    [–]ArtemisiaPoppycock -4ポイント-3ポイント  (24子コメント)

    GammaKing and the other mods have already commented on this. They're currently working with the admins to determine where the voting manipulation is coming from and how to cut off that source.

    The voting behavior is clearly abnormal. Look at the direct comments to the OP in this topic.

    About 20 direct posts to the OP, all from separate users, generally in support of the new posting policy, Almost all of them, save for a few like GGMeow's, massively downvoted.

    About a dozen direct comments to the OP virulently against the policy, all massively upvoted.

    What the sub's community is actually saying is in their posts is in stark misalignment with what the votes are indicating. This is a clear sign of vote manipulation.

    [–]derram_2 9ポイント10ポイント  (23子コメント)

    I've already seen the thread you're using as an example.

    I can tell because my votes are still there, and I've downvoted some of the people who were massively downvoted.

    The larger portion of the community does not agree with the new policy and are downvoting those who support it.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

    As have I.

    Which makes me think that gammaking is possibly not realizing that it's the community that's downvoting these.

    [–]PadaV4 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

    As have i. My voting pattern is more or less in tune with the current upvote/downvote pattern. So am i accused of being part of some brigade now? I have been fucking subscribed to this sub from almost the start.

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    We're getting our shit together. Hold on :)

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I have proof of people making threads under false pretenses.

    I don't have proof of false voting.

    I'm sure it happens because it's impossible to check. There's no flawless way to check.

    But it tells me something that voices that have always contributed good content get upvoted and that moderators still get upvoted for doing benign stuff. Unless the brigade is being very smart about it, they're not effectively affecting votes much.

    But I can't know for sure, that's true.

    It's also an excessively small sample.

    [–]LordTwinkie 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Sigh let's just get this over with and mod me already.

    [–]kvxdev 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Mostly ok with your analysis except point 1. First, it wasn't users, it was user : "ggthrowaway1138". Second, the guy tried to create neoKia and then the account was deleted. Why? Who knows, but some suspect foul play from admins (I don't even know if they can do that, but I suspect they can.) As for """brigading""", I'm kind of sick of hearing this. Nobody has proven such an attempt. So far, people are using the ghost of brigading to paint opposing view points in a light with which they can easily discard them. Someone can not be right/not represent the majority/represent the silent majority without him being an evil agent from the unknown. This is some wikipedia grade level of BS. If you want to claim something is brigading, please post a proof (a call to action from twitter, a forum or a sub before a sudden spike of activity, for example).

    And btw, for those saying we've been infiltrated by SJWs, MRAs, trolls or whatever... When the "infiltrators" are more active than most of your community, provide sources to their opinions and react strongly only to change, not to the status quo... They're part of what you call a community, mate.

    [–]theone899 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Look at this thread.....9 votes and 6 downvotes?

    [–]jeb0r 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I don't agree with what he is saying, but honestly I know a lot of people believe misconceptions (based on twitter flowcharts and other garbage being tossed around) I forgot last night and assumed everyone was a troll.. I was wrong, but these are possibly our fellow brothers, let's try and talk/hug it out. bitch.

    [–]theone899 -4ポイント-3ポイント  (12子コメント)

    There is obvious brigading going on; some people call it ''silent disagreement'' but it stifles discussion and makes KIA into an echo-chamber, which is everything we stand against. Also I think it's more sinister than disagreement given that it goes from 2-3+ points to -6 or -7 votes within a few minutes. Something is going on.

    Also, sorry to sound like a shill, but if people want to not pay attention to the bullshit drama, then check out my thread; I think it's quite important and detrimental to Operation Disrespectful Nod.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/382a2t/being_smarter_with_the_boycott_campaign_possibly/

    [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast[S] 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Maybe it's because people ignore something when it's a minor problem and they take action when it something has grown. I've refrained from giving this attention so far, but it's becoming a problem. Let's deal with it, solve it and get on with good work.

    [–]FSMhelpusall 14ポイント15ポイント  (10子コメント)

    "People who disagree with me are BRIGADERS AND SHILLS."

    [–]jeb0r -5ポイント-4ポイント  (2子コメント)

    FSM, I think we had a falling out, the same rage you feel towards them, we felt towards people we thought were trying to rip gg apart, let's heal that rift and work together yeah? we can disagree. but i'll admit I have an opinion and it can fully be fuckedup wrong. please extend the curtesy to your brothersinarms :D and I would say the same to /u/theone899

    But I did see a post on 8chan/twitter mentioning a botarmy basically for doing this and you have to be honest and say that trolls are around, so sometimes it's difficult to see who an enemy is, but jumping to instant enemy is wrong, and I apologize.

    hell if you were in NZ i'd buy you a drink and we could chill and realize we are humans doing human things on humanland and hopefully talk it through :D

    disclosure: I assumed people stating what I thought were incredulous things must be trolls, I'm adult enough to realize the folly of that thought, I am still cautious but fuck this rift that formed.

    [–]FSMhelpusall 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I am not , alas. Look the first way to solve this is to stop saying that those of us who are mad are shills or brigaders. We've been here all along. Brigaders don't fucking unsub.

    [–]jeb0r 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    you speak truth <3. we will be wary with you, I honestly believe there are a less vocal group that hated sjw, and I do believe sjw/extreme feminism is part of the same fucked up ideology that causes shitjournalism. because it's about pandering to that type of thinking, and at one point the ideals will cross paths.

    I also understand why they want to add the textpost I personally don't think that is bad, but I do see how you can view it as a stepping place to more restriction. It's fucking tough decision and being a mod is a shit job, they are humans also and can lash out when they feel attacked.

    tldr: we are humans, let's work together to make sure this place works the best for everyone involved :D

    [–]Inverno_Muto 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Why don't you simply make a filter for SocJus-free KiA? /r/pcmasterrace has something similar.

    [–]mybowlofchips 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Because its simpler to filter by tags.

    [–]fateofmorality 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Could we please get this stickied?

    [–]sensual_rustle -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

    In b4 deleted by faggots.

    As if they'll fucking listen.

    [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]Chrono_Nexus 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Spilling spaghetti means, reposting an already-established topic. At least I think so...

      Copy-paste -> Copy Pasta -> ergo to spill spaghetti is to cover a surface (such as a front page) in reposts.

      [–]madhousechild 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/spaghetti-stories

      The original spaghetti-in-pocket story was absurd and who knows why he spilled spaghetti. To me it's morphed to mean keeping outbursts under control.

      [–]NoBadgerinoPls -2ポイント-1ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I visit KIA every day and I haven't noticed the drama that some threads are talking about. As far as I'm concerned, the sub is fine and the mods are doing their job.

      [–]IcantstopreadingKIA 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

      How could you even know that they're doing their job without knowing what they've removed?

      [–]NoBadgerinoPls 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

      How do you know that garbage collectors are doing their jobs?

      I don't see garbage on the front page and all of the non-stickied threads on the front page are fresh. (less than 13 hours old) As far as I'm concerned, this is working fine.

      [–]IcantstopreadingKIA 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Have you seen garbage on the front page before?