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University professor penalizing students for bathroom breaks, is this legal? Texas (self.legaladvice)

Krunt が 投稿

Hi, so I fully understand how absurd this is, but I just started a summer class, and my professor included on her syllabus a provision that essentially penalizes anyone who needs to use the bathroom.

Here's the exact wording, "Leaving during class and returning is not permitted. If you need to leave during class that is okay, but you may not return. Depending on when you leave you may be counted as absent for the whole period."

I don't understand how this could possibly be legal. I asked about the ADA, and was told that if anyone has a disability, they can get a special provision made for them to allow them to use the restroom. Am I wrong, and if not, how can I convince my school that this needs to be changed?

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[–]MajorPhaser 38ポイント39ポイント  (11子コメント)

I'm bored, so I'm going to address all of your questions:

The ADA, as your professor acknowledged, would apply here. So anyone with a recognized disability who has a demonstrable need for exceptions to the policy can get one. Your professor acknowledged that and agrees, so no issue there.

OSHA is the Occupational Safety & Health Administration. Their rules only apply to employers/employees/the workplace. They only have the authority to regulate actions in an employment setting. Higher education is not employment under their accepted definition, and thus they have no enforcement power. They could enforce rules as they pertain to how the administration treats professors, but not how professors treat students. Wikipedia has a nice summary of what they do if you'd care to read it.

Even if OSHA did apply (and it definitely does not), it's widely accepted that employers can make reasonable regulations on bathroom usage. Here's a guidance memo from the Director of Compliance at OSHA stating as much. I'd make the argument that making you wait no more than 59 minutes is plenty reasonable, especially given that this policy only impacts two hours of your day.

Finally, the law issue. In the absence of guidance from a statute or court, there is nothing illegal or impermissible about an activity. Laws are rules. If there are no rules about something.....there are no rules. It's axiomatic. Aside from OSHA & the ADA, I'm not aware of a single law regarding use of the bathroom that would be relevant here. Given that I can find nothing that requires unfettered bathroom access, the only conclusion I can offer is that your professor can do this without consequence.

Your only remaining avenue is to hope this violates the administration's rules somehow. Check your student handbook, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[–]Nora_Oie 16ポイント17ポイント  (8子コメント)

The people who head up our EAC would tell the person to wear a diaper (and some students do). Some students have no control whatsoever over potty issues, but they are dedicated to actually learning the material and not disrupting others. It's always sad to see a quadraplegic obey the rules while someone who just wants to assert their rights does not.

[–]BullsLawDan 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Side story: a fraternity at my undergraduate institution was famous for making the pledges wear diapers at all parties during pledge week, and not allowing them to use the restrooms.

[–]cassius3000 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Side side story. I once walked past a bar in Montreal that had a sign out front that said "All you can drink for $1 until you use the restroom." Apparently they gave you a bracelet when you came through the front door and cut it when you went back to the restrooms.

[–]BullsLawDan 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Terrible value for my one sailing buddy.

We went on a road trip in May and he wasn't driving so of course he drinks... We seriously were stopping every 20-30 minutes for this weak-bladdered asshole.

[–]cal_student37 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

Or just let people go pee because they're grown ups and probably paying thousands of dollars to be there? The 'dedication' of diapered disabled students doesn't make the ridiculous rule any less ridiculous. Going to pee shouldn't need to be an act of "asserting your rights". Yes OP doesn't have a legal argument, but stop riding the high no pee horse.

[–]taimoor2 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

They are disturbing the class by freely going in and out. On average, I pee 5 times a day. Some people more, some less so I would use this as average. Since I am up 16 hours, that's once 3.2 hours. Probability of me peeing is (1/3.2) 0.3125 per hour.

If there are 100 students in a class, that's 31 students who need to use the bathroom during a class of 1 hour. If they come out (disturb the class) and then come in again (disturb the class again), that's one disturbance per minute.

Alternatively, the professor can just forbid people from peeing during class. Then people go to bathroom just before class and then there is much less disturbance during class.

[–]Krunt[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are 15 students in a giant lecture hall. Every student looks to be above 21 at least, with a few being much older. Whether or not the rule is legal, it's stupid to not trust that adults can handle knowing when they need to leave class and come back, especially when those adults are paying to be there.

[–]Aetherastra 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Leaving and returning disturbs the lecture, is what I think is the logic.

[–]cal_student37 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess it depends on class size, the room, and the activity but I have never encountered a situation like this in my 3 years of college (nore any of my retail or office jobs), and I've had classes that ranged from 10 people to 700 people. People go to the bathroom infrequently enough that it is never a problem. It seems like a patently absurd rule -- even in high school you could go to the restroom in the middle of class with a hall pass.

[–]Citicop 13ポイント14ポイント  (68子コメント)

How long per day are the classes?

[–]GoufingAround 23ポイント24ポイント  (48子コメント)

Am I wrong,

Yes. You have no right to a specific grade or grading scheme. The professor has no duty to accommodate you bathroom needs.

[–]anisaerah 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't understand how this could possibly be legal. I asked about the ADA, and was told that if anyone has a disability, they can get a special provision made for them to allow them to use the restroom.

That seems pretty reasonable.

How long is the class? Do you have a disability that requires you to use the bathroom more frequently than the professor's rule allows for?

[–]CujoCrunch 9ポイント10ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes, it's legal. As she said, anyone with a related disability can make a request for reasonable accommodation.

I had two professors with similar policies; both referred students to the office of disability (whatever it was called) if they had an ADA-related issue. A student decided to try his luck with one of them, thinking it was a bluff...he received an epic public ass chewing that lived in infamy throughout the rest of his student career.

[–]Nora_Oie 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

The head of our ADA program is disabled. Yet, he still stays on his job for the requisite hours (2 hours without a break - and yes, his disability affects this issue).

[–]CujoCrunch 10ポイント11ポイント  (1子コメント)

The head of the office of disability accommodations at my university was also disabled, and she jumped all over any student who tried to use disability to pull some unnecessary bullshit. It obviously personally offended her. I would love to see her handle OP's whining.

OP should go to an online university and take his classes from his toilet.

[–]PurpleWeasel 5ポイント6ポイント  (7子コメント)

Is your professor allowed to leave class in the middle of a lecture to use the bathroom?

[–]Nora_Oie 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Perfectly legal. While students with disabilities can ask for special permission to leave class, returning (and disrupting) the class is not considered reasonable by many people. Some lessons require the undivided attention of the students for a 50-75 minutes period (or they'd never get through their physics problem).

Where I work, it is up to each professor (and I believe the AAUP agrees with this) to decide whether to count it as an absence if a student leaves. The number of students going in and out of a large class "to use the bathroom" can be very large. But we don't have to count them as present.

You can't convince your school to change the ADA. Only reasonable accommodations (and where I work, going in and out of the classroom - for any reason - is not considered reasonable under the ADA and no challenge against it has ever been upheld).

OTOH, many profs will be lenient (it depends on the subject; if the subject matter allows it is my own main criteria).

If a class is intensely viewing pathology slides in a darkened classroom (we have shitty projectors), it's not okay for students to go in and out and flood the room with light and ruin everyone's dark vision. Going out one time is okay.

We also don't have to do lots of things that students think are accommodating (and there are competing disabilities; no lie - as soon as you let one student go in and out due to disability, someone else with another disability (hearing, ADD, ADHD) will claim they are disadvantaged by the first student).

Accommodations include longer test time, having a notetaker (so that if you have to leave the class, you still get notes), having hearing assistance on tests, having special equipment for tests for the blind, having seating or a place for a wheelchair.

But if the prof (and there are very good educational reasons beyond what I've mentioned for not allowing disruption of class) says no going in and out, there's no going in and out.

And again, my school (and all the public schools in my state, despite several legal challenges) allows roll to be taken as many times as the prof likes - and whenever the prof likes. I can drop someone for excessive absences (which is another way of dealing with the same issue).

[–]grasshoppa1 15ポイント16ポイント  (25子コメント)

What do you think is illegal about it, and why?

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[–]upnorthbubba 11ポイント12ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's distracting to the educational process to have people coming and going all through the class. She's just eliminating the distraction. Two hours is not too long to go without a bathroom break. Go before class, during the break, or after class.

[–]rabidstoat 14ポイント15ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's not even 2 hours, there's apparently a short break at the midway point.

[–]upnorthbubba 9ポイント10ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's why I mentioned the break, even without the break, though, barring a medical condition, a grown adult can go two hours without using a bathroom.

[–]sawser 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Must be awful going in road trips with this kid.

[–]I_work_in_HIED 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Dammit guys, the one time someone asks an education question is the night I have a work thing late and don't check Reddit.

/u/Krunt if you -- or any other student -- have a diagnosed disability there will be an office on campus (typically some combination of "disability," "accessibility," "resources," and "services") where you can make the arrangements for reasonable accommodations.

Don't tank up before class.