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META"Muh Narrative!" (self.KotakuInAction)

LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore が 投稿

Don't be so desperate to hold up a narrative that you're willing to cut off your own hands and pull out your own tongue. They never gave a fuck about "Ethics in journalism" so I don't care that they point to the number of posts that are tagged with SJW as some grand defeat.

Milo has it right, the ethics violations and SJWs are intimately related with outlets like DiGra and groups like the IGDA becoming entirely co-opted by people with an agenda.

A deep and winding tale of conspiracy(true conspiracy) is not easily digested by the masses, shirtgate and protein world are short, self contained, and speak easily to business people and the public respectively.

To whine and cry that it undermines our narrative, when it really doesn't, is silly. Our detractors, our ideological enemies, our censors are the ones with a narrative to push, not us, and this attempt to excise something important from ourselves will not serve our interests, nor will it help us.

Putting things like shirtgate and protein world out in public loudly, and resoundly, is how you win the public, you win the business, and you win universities. They never gave a shit about ethics, as long as we care about ethics, and the cliches and groups behind the violation of such, I'm fine with that.

Our side shouldn't have a narrative that is some golden calf.

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[–]dismalinterest 106ポイント107ポイント  (8子コメント)

Protein world is a great example because it's a win. Talking about wins has the double bonus of being good for morale and letting us see what tactics have worked in other situations.

The protein world situation might not be completely analogous but there are other situations that are. What happens if there are situations that we could learn from out there? Are we going to deny ourselves that information just because it doesn't fit some insanely tiny definition?

Lets also remember the players in this game are all over the map they don't confine themselves to one area or a code of conduct. They are very much the viet cong of social movements. When someone rolls up with "something we might be interested in but it doesn't mention GG" are we going to simply say "no thanks"?

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 65ポイント66ポイント  (7子コメント)

Exactly. They wouldn't be on our doorstep now if they were challenged and fought back sooner. The best part is protein world is entirely the victim here. There is no way to spin it to make someone else the victim that looks sane and rational. Lastly, it showed people there is money to be made bucking political correctness while not being some pundent like a talk radio host.

You have nutball SJWs with no ethics violating the law to vandalize signs. You have them stomping around like women-hating-radical-islamists, looking just as nuts. To say this isn't related, that it isn't useful? That is to have a blind eye towards winning the war, rather than a battle.

[–]dismalinterest 40ポイント41ポイント  (6子コメント)

The biggest thing is that we have to stop thinking that appeasement is a valid tactic or even that appeasement will work on these people.

They are actually using this directly against us. "Well if you just did/didn't do this one thing we wouldn't consider you evil" it's never going to happen and protein world is proof.

They won by doing the opposite of appeasement and people LOVE them for it. We live in a world where everyone is afraid to say anythign without qualifying it first. "I'm not racist I just think, I believe in equality but" it just makes you sound like a limp wristed ninny.

People love it when you just come out and say what you have to say with confidence rather than dancing around it like a scared little wretch.

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with you entirely. Convincing them isn't our job, it isn't our goal. Convincing the public and convincing business is what our aims are and should always be.

Mister "Stillgrey" apologized because his site died, and because his own side turned on him when he had an independent though. None of that had anything to do with appeasement.

[–]Flaktrack 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

We live in a world where everyone is afraid to say anythign without qualifying it first. "I'm not racist I just think, I believe in equality but" it just makes you sound like a limp wristed ninny.

Every time I see someone qualify their shit that way I cringe. It's like all those articles starting with "First I must say I do not condone threats and violence." NO SHIT. Why are you even telling me this? The fact that these SJW fucks seem to think that by fighting for gaming I automatically condone violence doesn't show poorly on me, it shows poorly on them.

Stop qualifying statements when your arguments should be able to stand on their own merit. Stop trying to appease SJWs, they will NEVER be satisfied. And please stop apologizing for shit that you didn't do and isn't your fault: if someone does something dumb, that's on them.

[–]TuesdayRB 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Qualification statements like those are a symptom of the cowardice that has infected our culture.

[–]raffastafarian 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Damn right. Protein World didn't remove the limerick from their game. That's why it's a win to me.

[–]Immahnoob 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

They are actually using this directly against us. "Well if you just did/didn't do this one thing we wouldn't consider you evil" it's never going to happen and protein world is proof.

I, for one, see it more lovely to just accept the accusations, that's also because I love conflict. I'm one of those people that will actively seek it, so something like:

"So what if I'm racist? My argument still destroys yours." is something that can make a lot of people become really aggressive.

Ahhhh, you don't even know how many threats, from rape to death threats I got on some forums. It's so easy to make people commit guilt by association, it's exhilarating to watch.

[–]dismalinterest 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ahhhh, you don't even know how many threats, from rape to death threats I got on some forums. It's so easy to make people commit guilt by association, it's exhilarating to watch.

Oh dude them was the days. Used to post on a metal board which was part of a larger music community we would regularly raid indie and scene type music boards with all kinds of nonsense. Wierdly enough despite being a bunch of black metal obsessed teenage nerds we got along with the hip hop boards pretty well and kinda became allies which is where I first learned to really enjoy rappers and beat boxers.

[–]CHIM_ERA 159ポイント160ポイント  (57子コメント)

Milo has it right, the ethics violations and SJWs are intimately related with outlets like DiGra and groups like the IGDA becoming entirely co-opted by people with an agenda.

Exactly! Do people genuinely think it's a coincidence that the SJW's are the ones making such massive ethical violations?

And you know what? SJW's say stupid shit. SJW's are anti-GG, if we consistently put out that the people who are against GamerGate are the SJW's saying this dumb shit, people will start to associate "anti-GamerGate" with "drooling, blithering, retard".

How is that anything but a PR victory?

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 39ポイント40ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly.

[–]Phonix111186 29ポイント30ポイント  (3子コメント)

As I've said before, it's not that we care about SJW/gender/race politics, it's that our opponents are obsessed with it.

[–]HolidayHowlett 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

I tried to explain this to my room mate. And he couldn't fathom that people would be upset even if this didn't have anything to do with gender politics.

[–]Qikdraw 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

And some people will always believe where there is smoke, there is fire, and so will side with SJWs no matter what. Even if they aren't SJWs themselves. We shouldn't try and cater to those people either.

[–]dismalinterest 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes! How are we supposed to refute their claims if we have no idea what they are saying or what the basis for their ideas are?

We're intentionally handicapping ourselves with this.

[–]DrenDran 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

Just being completely honest here, as someone from /pol/ I think this is a lot of people's first exposure to the concept of a "culture war". Fighting against people (SJWs in this case) that wish to destroy a culture. Whether that be something like gaming or something larger like their attempts to deconstruct the nuclear family, religion, or patriotism. There will always be people who wish to hold onto their way of doing things and will fight not to have them and their traditions unjustly degraded.

[–]dismalinterest 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep that's why I keep saying "people don't like the SJW stuff because it shines a rather unfavorable light on their own politics."

[–]RevRound 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

The corruption and SJW ideological influence are so intertwined that pretending it does not exist is either a sign of flat out denial or an attempt to clip GG off at the knees.

Im sorry, but this sort of moderation of general SJW issues is a back door to let a SRS/SJW takeover of KiA happen. This is how these sorts of people weasel their way into power and then exploit their position for corrupting a sub. It has happened time and time again, how our hat friend cant see this is very worrying.

It has been very telling that there has been an incredible spike in concern trolls around here

[–]XenoKriss 31ポイント32ポイント  (2子コメント)

The idea that a Anti-Gamer meme ("actually, it's about ethics in games journalism") should define and limit what GG is about was always completely ridiculous. If you want to connect the dots, you can't ignore the SJWs, or the way they've been hijacking and ruining other subcultures in the past few years.

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 13ポイント14ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah, to put more prunes in the pudding here. Ghazi had a poster come up with statistics based on our tag, and they're all flogging the dolphin over the fact that SJW tagged posts are as popular/more popular than ethics tagged items... Of course, one could say that incidents like that diversity officer saying killallmen and nowhitepeople are both a concern of ethics and SJWing, but there you go.

For some reason, this perception actually bothers some gamergate people who want to maintain a "Sargent Sholtz" style "I see nothing" so they can stick to video game ethics journalism with such a narrow definition that they become ineffectual.

[–]Jack-Browser/r/TheCommentGraveyard 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's the same tired shit as always:

"So I just came to your sub, there was like, two topics about ethics and a lot of SJW bashing. EXPLAIN YOURSELF!"

We used to laugh at that, remember. There's this novella I used to like, called Schach Von Wuthenow. It's about this guy that's really proud and upstanding and shit. Won't spoil you too much but he ends up sleeping with the wrong girl, and, fearing ostracisation and not being able to cope with his self imposed shame, he kills himself. Well, okay, I guess I spoiled that!

My point is: FUCK. MUH. PR.

[–]Webringtheshake 26ポイント27ポイント  (7子コメント)

Changing to suit aGG seems pointless since whatever GG does is wrong.

The original driveby claim was picked up by some as an example of GG being dangerous. The people that see it as ridiculous claim its a GG "false flag". So either way GG is the villain.

"SJWs" are becoming a concern for regular people outside of GG, look at the public reaction to "feminist jazzhands" or Bahar Mustapha for example.

As long as SJW doesn't just get used to mean "people we don't like" too often, I think its a good term. The more ground GG gains the more its opponents will want it to give up.

[–]TheFlyingBastard 4ポイント5ポイント  (6子コメント)

feminist jazzhands

I think I missed this one. What happened?

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 10ポイント11ポイント  (4子コメント)

Clapping was too aggressive for a group of people, so it was requested that people just wiggle their fingers in something called "Jazz hands" which harkons back to racist shows like mistral shows... but that was somehow okay because it was more important not to make people feel uncomfortable with what is now considered a masculine behavior(banging your hands together.)

[–]TheFlyingBastard 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

...What?

Wait... what? I mean... I can usually kinda follow their bullshit. Blah blah, male privilege - you know, I can get the gist of it. But this? What?

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

PMing, direct links are weird here.

[–]TheFlyingBastard 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am stunned. Just... stunned.

It's like someone made a joke and they just ran with it.

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol, you're welcome =)

[–]Webringtheshake 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/566202/NUS-jazz-hands-clapping-anxiety-feminists

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/24/feminist-conference-says-clapping-triggers-anxiety/

There's quite a few more articles if you want a read.

TLDR version: The NUS in the UK asked for an alternative to clapping at their conference so they can be inclusive, since the loud noise can "trigger" some people. Rest of the country facepalms.

Edited for my garbled English.

[–]Irvin700 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

I joined Gamergate because of SJWs, just saiyan'

I went from SJW -> Chaotic Neutral -> SVU Episode -> Gamergate

I'm not as anti-SJW as I used to be though. I'm more concentrating of preventing another video game market crash now. Until they piss me off again.

[–]crusades2014 42ポイント43ポイント  (2子コメント)

excise something important from ourselves will not serve our interests, nor will it help us.

Exactly. How has this move by people like Hat and the other mods to get rid of SJW stuff worked out? They've faced massive resistance from the community and infighting for 2 continuous days currently. All they've managed to accomplish is help divide posters and contribute to people cannibalizing each other.

Why do they forget that Gamergate started because people got their posts deleted, people got banned for no reason, people weren't allowed to have a discussion. It's like they forget that this was done to people and think it's ok because this time they're in charge and they're doing it to "better the community".

I care about ethics but I also care about things like Protein World and when those journalists lied about the Balitmore riots and said some woman was stealing a man's purse. They also have chance to expose Gamergate to other people who may never of heard of it before.

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 24ポイント25ポイント  (0子コメント)

And unfortunately, the riots thing didn't get a signal boost because people were trying to seem like they had a containment issue. No, we should've been boosting that because people need to know how full of shit these journalists are because that might make them reconsider how full of shit they were about us.

[–]azriel777 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is some shaddy shit going on. We already said it MULTIPLE FUCKING TIMES that we did not want kia/GG to change, let people post what they want and let the community decide what they want to focus on. That was the whole point of GG in the first place and why people flock to this sub. Now the mods are flat out ignoring the community that was here from the beginning, rewrite history pretending SJW discussion was not hear from the start, put on crowns to make themselves the leaders of KIA/GG and dictate our narrative? Like I said, Shaddy shit.

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 40ポイント41ポイント  (16子コメント)

And by the way; making the SJW tag in the first place is what enabled them to do statistics so easily on the subreddit over on ghazi. If you want to thank anyone for how those numbers broke down, well, thank yourselves who pushed for that tag and making it so easy for them to do headcounts without having to actually read anything.

[–]TheLastGunslingr 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seriously where are we to gather now? I'm done with this place.

[–]StrawRedditorMod - @strawtweeter 0ポイント1ポイント  (9子コメント)

Would you like us to remove the tagging system entirely? That's actually something that a lot of people like.

[–]sensual_rustle 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sounds good to me

[–]InsulinDependent 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wish

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Unfortunately, once the trigger was pulled on tags, that was that. If you pull the tags, ghazi will crow and it will serve as a Streisand effect that will harm KiA. We have to live with and deal with the consequences of having enacted tagging. To yank them now would be very reactionary.

Instead, I'd suggest that perhaps we just whittle it down to three tags. Gaming. Meta. "Outside Gaming" for all else. This means that no specific area is relegated to ethics or journalism, and the "Gaming only!" crowd has a tag (gaming) that is just for them. This also makes it harder for someone to make a lazy parse.

[–]StrawRedditorMod - @strawtweeter -1ポイント0ポイント  (5子コメント)

Honestly, I understand a lot of the arguments being given, but I really don't get this sudden hate for tagging. That's something that's always had a very positive response. The only criticism I get regarding it is that the "off-topic" tag can have a negative connotation when it really shouldn't.

I agree that "outside-gaming" would probably be better than "off-topic".

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (4子コメント)

I really suggest you think about pruning the tags down into broader groups.

Goals.

Meta. (Moderation, other subreddits, global reddit issues.)

Gaming (Things directly relating to gaming, gaming journalism, and the ethics within the two.)

Non-gaming (Anything not directly relating to the hobby of gaming, but still germain.)

What we have now is so granular and fine-toothed that they look more like confetti on the page of the subreddit than they do categorizing components.

[–]StrawRedditorMod - @strawtweeter 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I like that idea. Though I think I'd maybe add a "Journalism" tag as well.

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Journalism would fall into all the other tags. Meta could handle journalism ethics about the website itself.

Gaming, of course.

non-gaming as well.

If you just have a journalism tag, you're almost creating the original situation of being too granular. The next batch of "Ghazi does bad statistics!" would then focus on game and journalism tags versus non-gaming and meta.

The title of the post can usually give ample clues to if it's about journalism anyway since they tend to reference the name of the news outlet or website in question.

[–]StrawRedditorMod - @strawtweeter 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's true.

[–]AntithesisDundercover shill 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Confetti is pretty though!

In all seriousness, I agree. We could do with fewer, less specific flairs.

[–]humanitiesconscious 27ポイント28ポイント  (6子コメント)

This is so obvious it is pathetic people don't understand it.

[–]jamesensor 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

Everybody has their own idea of their place in the "seekrit klubhouze" that is KiA.

Some people just miss forests for trees.

[–]cky_stew 4ポイント5ポイント  (4子コメント)

I fully understand it, just don't agree with it. Hope you don't think I'm pathetic too. I'm all for GG for the record.

[–]humanitiesconscious 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

Do as you like. While you are milking your golden calf SJWs will be busy destroying anyone who stands in their way, and setting the tempo for society for the next 3 generations.

[–]cky_stew 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I just ignore them, and they affect me in no way whatsoever.

Engage in internet bickering with SJW's if you must but I grew out of that around the age of 16.

[–]humanitiesconscious 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You can keep your bad advice. Those SJWs are no longer 16 either, they are in the work force, and politics helping to shape the world. But please, continue to ignore all evidence that contradicts your attitude.

[–]Fraidnot 6ポイント7ポイント  (2子コメント)

You don't have to be a sjw journalist be in bed with the industry, remember that.

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

But it helps! :D

Ehhh? Ehh?

[–]Splutch 4ポイント5ポイント  (3子コメント)

Can anyone tell me what happened to the stickypost? Why is it taken down?

[–]azriel777 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Probably because the majority of posts were ripping the mods a new one.

[–]Splutch 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

If they did it because they are rolling back the changes it's a good thing. But my suspicion is that they waited till the slowest days of the week to make the announcement to receive the least amount of backlash, then pulled the sticky to keep it from being seen by the vast majority of users. Isn't it strange it was pulled on Monday when everyone would be coming back from the weekend? They don't get to even see something was up.

[–]azriel777 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

Word is getting out regardless, streisand effect, third post on subredditcancer.

[–]Why-so-delirious 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Basically put, this is like a sub for Jewish history saying 'we're moving nazi discussion to another sub because it's undermining our narrative'.

Yeah.

Right.

[–]bipolarTwo 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

Couldn't agree more.

[–]Earl_of_sandwiches 17ポイント18ポイント  (5子コメント)

Hey, here's a wild thought: if Ghazi is trying to manipulate us into making changes, maybe we should consciously do the opposite? Last I checked, those people didn't really have our best interests at heart.

[–]Junoh315 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

Don't worry about Ghazi. Just do as you would without listening to their comments.

[–]TheMindUnfetteredGrand Poobah of GamerGate 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

That only works until they catch on and start trying reverse psychology. =P

[–]Earl_of_sandwiches 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've tried everything! Psychology, reverse psychology, you name it!

[–]DrenDran 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haven't we supported 'women in gaming' groups before? They don't give a shit. If you're pro- or anti- feminism it's best not to believe that will have any effect on how Ghazi (or the MSM) will see us.

[–]TheTaoOfOne -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've seen this tactic before:

I disagree with the changes, so anyone who supports those changes must be working for the opposite side.

You'd be surprised to know there are many who want these changes, and have pushed for them, who are actively banned from Ghazi (Me).

[–]FSMhelpusall 24ポイント25ポイント  (5子コメント)

But muh leaders of GamerGate (mods) decided otherwise anon, what can we do?

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 23ポイント24ポイント  (2子コメント)

Push the issue; Hat knows there are no leaders of gamergate. If this becomes a fight for power and a control of voices, then we all know it's time to go elsewhere and we get a new Streisand effect which is only ever beneficial to people's emotional investment.

[–]azriel777 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is why they think they are being subtle, they know if they just flat out remove the SJW content all together then that will cause the streisand effect and there will be another mass exodus. So they are trying to make new "Rules" and slice it away a bit at a time, however we all see what is happening.

[–]TheLastGunslingr 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Where? Infinity

[–]mybowlofchips 8ポイント9ポイント  (2子コメント)

Brilliant

But winning the universities would take a mass expulsion of 95+% of humanities departments (or just closing them entirely) and 90+% of support staff and a fair number of idiots in other faculties. These fools live in a bubble and are mostly career academics with no real world experience who are dumb enough to believe in the labor theory of value or Freud

[–]usul1628 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

In that regard, the solution is obvious, simple, but difficult to achieve. Cut off the lines of easy money from government into higher education. Regulations as well. Without the distorting influence of easy government money, they'd have to trim anything that didn't add enough value to students. Departments would have to become rigorous enough so that graduates had a big leg up, or they'd disappear. It wouldn't stop them from being left wing, but it would force them out of their bubbles to a degree. As a side bonus, ditching government grant money would mean an end to much of the corruption and shoddy work done by scientists looking to suckle off the taxpayer teat (see that Gawker article this week)

[–]theroachsays -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I still don't see how that would help things...

[–]camarougeYour games end where my Patreon begins 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes but what does it have to do with gaming? Does anyone forget that we're just trying to clean up a few specific issues in the games industry? I gotta tell you, we're not going to do that by expensing our horizons universally to go after ALL of social justice because we won't get anything done. We'll be locked in a pointless fued until the end of time, like the left and the right, feminists and MRAs, atheists and Christians, etc etc.

This sort of rhetoric proves their earlier stories right. THEY were the ones who said that Gamergate was a "culture war". We initially rejected that because we had a clearly set-in-stone cause: ethics in journalism, and a few specific instances of corruption/cronyism/censorship/collusion. It all revolved around GameJournoPros and things were easily accomplished when that was our focus.

But here and now, it seems like people are all-too eager to prove that initial point right: that we are slowly becoming a culture war. Why is this? What changed? Why did we have to veer off course of the video games industry? And how will doing that help us?

[–]BYZPelad 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

Milo has it right, the ethics violations and SJWs are intimately related with outlets like DiGra and groups like the IGDA becoming entirely co-opted by people with an agenda.

or option B, the ethical violation of the journalists overlap with "sjwish" topics but are not the one and the same? there's nothing wrong with having an issue with that extremist mentality and voicing it, but lets also not pretend that this is somehow "ethics in journalism!" that digra exists when they are not even journalists from the get go. as long as journalists who are members of it or participate in it aren't reporting on them, i don't see how this is related to ethics in journalism at all. if the only connection here is the political one and the "yes im bias, objective reporting doesn't exist!" then i'd say that A - 90% of that is just shitty journalism, not ethical breaches. B - said journalists most likely were gonna have those opinions anyway, digra or not

i've said it before but this lack of distinction between the two topics is gonna fuck up the entire debate in SPJ if the people going there aren't careful since actual experts on ethics will give two shits about topics such as digra.

EDIT: let me clarify that i don't mean that those topics are not related to gamergate or that they should be thrown out of KiA. i mean that those two topics should not be conflated into one. it's completely fine to be focused on more than one topic under an umbrella group and GG to me means multiple things as well.

[–]phil_katzenberger 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

I understand the concern. However, we should keep a little perspective here about KIA. It's a subreddit for us to talk about gamergate. That's really all it is. It's not as if it's owed to anyone that we should stop talking about tangential topics. Also, who can agree on what's relevant to gamergate unless we're allowed to discuss these things first? This kind of stuff evolves, and with GG, and KIA in particular, I think it's been doing pretty well without the mods narrowing the gates.

As for the SPJ, I don't think "off topic" content on KIA has anything to do with anything. We're not journalists. We're laypeople. I'm a nurse. If a patient complains about me after I unfortunately commit a med error, I can't reasonably expect to explain away the situation with misogyny/sexism/racism/etc and expect for that information to be taken into account with regard specifically to my mistake that could've resulted in harm. I have faith that the SPJ is solely concerned about the professionalism of journalists, and that any discussion of harassment should be had somewhere else, some other time.

[–]BYZPelad 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

should have clarified, i didn't mean it in regards to the KiA thing but to that sentence specifically

those topics definitely have a space to be discussed in gamergate and i don't believe otherwise but i also don't believe in conflating the two into one topic and i'm specifically worried that milo is doing that when he's one of the people that are going to be sent to SPJ.

[–]phil_katzenberger 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seems hard to talk about one without talking about the other. Milo probably has a point. I personally agree with him. He'll have to make his case, which, honestly, he doesn't suck at.

Just like with harassment though, I totally agree that exclusively SJW dramas ought to be passed on by the SPJ, and I really can't imagine why it wouldn't be.

[–]BYZPelad -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

easier than it should be honestly: "MS paid polygon 750k and polygon did not disclose this" < - lacks those topics "this jorno didn't disclose working on this game" < lacks those topics "these jornos make accusations against ppl but didn't let them defend themselves" < lacks those topics

that's my worry. that people like milo don't stick to that when they're trying to prove "actually it really is about ethics in video game journalism!" but instead go back and forth between the two topics and constantly bring up examples from the "sjwism" side of the debate that aren't even relevant to the ethics part. and no i don't just mean parts that debunk the harassment narrative.

milo saying that and people here quoting him on that makes me worried because at times for debate purposes you really do need to learn to separate those parts.

[–]TheFlyingBastard 2ポイント3ポイント  (8子コメント)

Putting things like shirtgate and protein world out in public loudly, and resoundly, is how you win the public, you win the business, and you win universities.

Oh sure, but to whom will they listen when they find out their masters have been bullshitting them? They would wonder: "Have they lied about GG too?" And they will try and find out. Do you think it does not matter what they will find?

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (7子コメント)

They will find more general interest examples of SJWing gone out of control that they can relate to, than the simple niche of gaming.

[–]TheFlyingBastard 1ポイント2ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't know if it's a niche thing. As far as SJWs go, games are a huge thing. Even Occupy and Atheism couldn't handle their shit. GG has made it to many news outlets. I don't think we're a niche thing.

I mean, sure, we have allies. We're a voice to be reckoned with and we can help them with that. But does it hurt to fight our own fight? We have reason on our side. We have our own pre-GG history. Why let that slip? We should let that do the work for us.

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Why's it hurt to not fight on our own?

Some of our biggest allies and well-spoken public faces are NOT gamer faces, at least not primarily. We have pornstars, we have game devs, we have gamers, we have news hounds... all of them are part of the alchemy in this.

[–]TheFlyingBastard 1ポイント2ポイント  (4子コメント)

Why's it hurt to not fight on our own?

Because those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Of course we need our allies. I am not saying we should exclude non-gamers, on the contrary! What I'm saying is that we've been doing so much for gaming already. We've been calling bullshit for a year now, mostly on SJWs. Why narrow the narrative from "against corruption in (gaming) journalism" to "against SJWs"?

Both can be true at the same time - after all, one is part of the other.

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's broadening it. Gaming is a small corner of the world, and very first world. If we had to pick one, fighting SJW unethical behavior would not only allow us to protect gaming, but tabletop games, comics, music, movies, universities, lawmaking, policing, enforcement, etc.

I just really fail to see how that narrows our scope. Edit: and at least we believe in disclaimers =D

[–]TheFlyingBastard 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

I say that because not all unethical shit in gaming is pulled by SJWs. EA is a notorious rulebreaker, for example. Should we just let them off the hook? When we battle both publishers and SJWs, we also fight for others (as you mention).

It's like this Venn diagram which has games, literature, etc. all overlapping. In the middle are the very virulent SJWs. In the rest of our circle are game publishers. In the rest of the literature circle is... idk... Apple and its consorts trying to artificially drive up prices of books. (I don't know if that's what they're fighting against, but it caused a stir a while ago, so let's roll with that for the sake of argument.)

By the way, I find this to be a very pleasant discussion. I'm mildly surprised with all the anger and chaos reigning here at the moment. :)

[–]2yph0n 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

whynotboth.jpg

[–]LowbackReckoned for his wisdom and lore[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think we could afford to do ethics, Sjwing, and maybe even hail-corporate type issues. That would include EA then. We've got plenty of room for issues to tackle, I don't think it's too large for us.

[–]Craptain 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Please forget about narrative. That's playing their game. We have TRUTH on our side. Much stronger, much more convincing. They'll never have it so they need to invent ways to work around it. We don't.

[–]GOU_NoMoreMrNiceGuy 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

or even the ethics in journalism stories like the rolling stone UVA "rape" story.

i simply don't get the spineless call to not identify our enemies as such. you don't win wars by focusing on whether everyone's following the rules on the battlefield.

you win wars by disemboweling your enemies.

[–]wisty 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Half the US watches Fox News, and people worry about calling SJWs crazy because it hurts our narrative?

Fucking hell. Calling the most radical leftists crazy isn't right-wing. It's not even centrist - it's center left.

The SJWs have a few plum positions, which they use to broadcast their narrative. People want to hear about how it's bullshit, especially people who are left (or libertarian) enough to hate Fox, but not extremists.

(INB4 political compass - yeah, but the left-right divide is a tribal one, and our fear of being seen turning against SJWs pure is tribalism)

[–]A-bob-omb -1ポイント0ポイント  (8子コメント)

Why does everyone hate /r/socialjusticeinaction so much?

[–]Junoh315 7ポイント8ポイント  (5子コメント)

It's just not as popular. Most people don't like spreading their content to other subreddits. I'm subscribed to it and actively view it but it still doesn't have enough content to really stay afloat. I'll probably start posting stuff in it in the future though.

[–]A-bob-omb 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's just not as popular.

To be fair, it's new. But yeah I'm subbed also and intend to post stuff to it (I'm not usually quick enough to find stuff myself though)

[–]Junoh315 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not usually quick enough to find stuff myself though

I know that feeling. Unless I actively look for stuff on Twitter then I won't find anything to post. The problem is that I rarely use my Twitter now. I only plan on doing it because I hope it will bring more people to the subreddit.

[–]A-bob-omb 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's got a healthy usage and it'll only grow. Reading and commenting is still helping it! :)

[–]TheTaoOfOne -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not popular because every single attempt to make it popular has been met with fierce opposition from the users who refuse to take their anti-SJW stuff over there.

The argument is literally:

The place is inactive because nobody will go there, and I won't go there because it's inactive.

It's stupid.

[–]Junoh315 -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There are people that will go to inactive subreddits and there are people that won't. Get enough people that will go there to start submitting stuff and the people that won't go to inactive subreddits won't have to worry about it anymore. It takes time to build it up.

[–]azriel777 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because we do not want to divde the community which seems to be the goal of the mods. Gaming and SJW were here together from the beginning regardless of what the mods try to say.

[–]A-bob-omb -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

It doesn't divide the community. That's bullshit. Because I'm subbed to /r/movies and /r/starwars, as well as here, are the communities 'divided'? Of course not.

That's not how topical forums work.