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[–]RabidRaccoon -31ポイント-30ポイント  (111子コメント)

Here's my comment on it

http://www.reddit.com/r/fullmoviesonyoutube/comments/37u4v6/predator_dark_ages_2015_720p/crud0j3

I don't think it's controversial to say that the US and UK had far more extreme war arms (at the end of the war unconditional surrender of their opponents versus merely forcing them to accept a new status quo with limits on their influence) than Japan and Germany. They were more willing to use more force earlier in the war to achieve those aims (particularly the UK which had a doctrine that 'the bomber will always get through' that was predicated on carpet bombing being used. The US objected to carpet bombing early in the war but adopted it enthusiastically later on to the point comparable numbers of people died in the conventional bombing of Tokyo to those that died in the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki). The US and UK also sneered at the German and Japanese attempts to imitate ancient codes of the honourable warrior - the Japanese tried to resurrect the Bushido code and the Germans tried to invent a code of honourable warriors at places like Wewelsburg

I.e. the US and UK regarded war as being something which is won by the industrial application of violence to destroy industry after which the losers would be low level formatted with the society of the winners. The Japanese and Germans thought if they defeated the US and UK honourably they would be allowed to keep their new empires where they'd treat conquered people like slaves.

As far as Shermans being bad compared to Panzers I think it's well documented.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/lovesick-cyborg/2014/10/16/good-enough-us-tanks-won-wwii/

The technical superiority of German tanks also did not necessarily guarantee easy victories for the Germans in tank duels. U.S. and British military studies in the later years of the war found that the single most important factor in tank duels was which side spotted the other first, engaged first and landed the first hits. Such scenarios tended to favor defenders, which is why German tanks on the attack suffered about as heavily as Sherman tanks on the attack. But such situations also favored well-trained and experienced tank crews who knew how to ambush or surprise enemy tanks. Even Panther and Tiger tanks could easily fall prey to Sherman tanks striking from the side or rear. (Zaloga also observes that the myth of the U.S. Army needing five Sherman tanks to knock out a single Panther or Tiger tank appears to have no basis in World War II combat records.)

In the end, Zaloga concludes that the Sherman’s good qualities of being mechanically reliable and easy to mass produce outweighed the tank’s disadvantages on the battlefield against the elite German tanks. He also points out that the Sherman tanks represented just one part of a well-honed U.S. war machine that included the hard-fighting infantry, excellent artillery support, and close air support from the U.S. Army Air Force. In fact, the U.S. Army spent almost six times as much on aircraft as tanks from 1941 to 1945 — $36 billion versus just $6 billion — in a successful effort to dominate the skies and cripple Germany’s wartime industry through strategic bombing raids.

However the US could turn out many more Shermans than the Germans could produce technically superior tanks.

In general the Allies vastly outproduced the Axis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II#Major_weapons_groups

US and UK carpet bombing helped, but the fact is that the technically superior German tanks would have been hard to produce in volume even without it.

The point about Lancaster being low tech consider

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/652900-Lancaster-and-Halifax-Bombers-Daylight-Bombing?s=c5eb4a1fa1bd38f06321478fc27fd14a&p=6992664&viewfull=1#post6992664

Bomber Command tried daylight operations with mediums and heavies repeatedly throughout the war. Shortly after the declaration of war in 1939 Wellingtons tried to hit German warships in port in daylight and took a drubbing. All that fall various experiments in using the Wellingtons and Hampdens in daylight resulted in unacceptable losses. Once again in the Norwegian Campaign in April 1940 British bombers were tried in daylight with no success. Sensibly, they were not thrown away in futile attacks on German army columns in France 1940, like the junior members, the Battles and Blenheims. With the introduction of the Stirling in early 1941, attempts were made to use the heavies in daylight once again. This time surrounded by dozens of Spitfires in short-range "Circus" missions over France. Stirlings, Manchesters, and Halifaxes were thrown into the campaign to destroy SCHARNHORST and GNEISENAU in Brest in 1941 and flew many unpleasant daylight missions. The brand new Lancaster was believed by some to be a super bomber. Soon after its introduction in 1942 daylight deep penetration raids were flown to try to knock out pin-point targets in Danzig and southern Germany. At this time Lancs had heavy armor available and crews could choose how much they wanted to carry (see STRIKE HARD, STRIKE SURE by Ralph Barker). Unfortunately, their .303 rifle-caliber machine guns were grossly out-ranged by the MG151s on German fighters. Harris wanted to upgun the heavies immediately and, instead, found himself in a bureaucratic war with the Air Ministry (see BOMBER COMMAND by Sir Arthur Harris). Finally, in 1944 the RAF heavies started to get .50 caliber turrets---some official mounts, some privately made to Harris's specification when he was fed up with Ministry stonewalling. By 1943, the heavies were only being used at night. This changed in 1944 with the pre-D-Day requirements. The heavies were used in the daylight several times during the Normandy campaign. The equipment of RAF fighter squadrons with long-range Mustangs allowed the heavies to be used in daylight under escort in late 1944 and 1945. Actually, Bomber Command's precision target marking tactics, perfected in mid-1944, worked better at night than during the day. Single Mosquitoes could mark individual buildings for saturation bombardment by placing markers right on the roofs. This would have been suicide in the day. Bomber Command was hitting more accurately at night than the AAF Air Forces were in daylight by 1944-45, and, in fact, contrary to popular belief, the Americans used area bombing frequently because they had no means to bomb accurately in overcast weather (see the excellent BLANKETS OF FIRE by Werrell).

I.e. area bombing a target at night was a hell of lot safer than precision bombing during the day, mostly because the Lancaster didn't have enough firepower to protect itself during daylight. US bombers could protect themselves better but even the US decided to switch from precision bombing in the day to area bombing at night

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II#Conventional_bombing

USAAF leaders firmly held to the claim of "precision bombing" of military targets for much of the war, and dismissed claims they were simply bombing cities. However the American Eighth Air Force received the first H2X radar sets in December 1943. Within two weeks of the arrival of these first six sets, the Eighth command gave permission for them to area bomb a city using H2X and would continue to authorize, on average, about one such attack a week until the end of the war in Europe.[158]

In reality, the day bombing was "precision bombing" only in the sense that most bombs fell somewhere near a specific designated target such as a railway yard. Conventionally, the air forces designated as "the target area" a circle having a radius of 1,000 feet around the aiming point of attack. While accuracy improved during the war, Survey studies show that, overall, only about 20% of the bombs aimed at precision targets fell within this target area.[159] In the fall of 1944, only seven percent of all bombs dropped by the Eighth Air Force hit within 1,000 feet of their aim point.

Nevertheless, the sheer tonnage of explosive delivered by day and by night was eventually sufficient to cause widespread damage, and, more importantly from a military point of view, forced Germany to divert resources to counter it. This was to be the real significance of the Allied strategic bombing campaign—resource allocation.

...

As in Europe, the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) tried daylight precision bombing. However, it proved to be impossible due to the weather around Japan, "during the best month for bombing in Japan, visual bombing was possible for [just] seven days. The worst had only one good day."[179] Further, bombs dropped from a great height were tossed about by high winds.

It's worth pointing out that US doctrine did originally specify daylight precision bombing and US bombers were better suited for it than British bombers. However the losses in doing it were too great and they switched to carpet bombing instead.

I.e. you can see a contrast between the way the US and UK viewed war. They tended to mass produce 'good enough' designs instead of going for wonder weapons like Germany. They didn't see a future where they coexisted with Germany and Japan in their current forms but one where they occupied Germany and Japan and imposed democracy by force. They regarded war as being something which was fought between the industrial bases of countries rather than purely by warriors. Hence the carpet bombing of German and Japanese industry.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group 53ポイント54ポイント  (4子コメント)

Thanks for coming on to discuss!

No WWII bomber had enough firepower to protect itself from heavy fighter attack without escort. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Not the B-17; certainly not the shitty, already-obsolescent-in-1940 HE 111s the Germans relied upon.

The myth of German armored superiority is certainly widespread. Yet neither the statistics of loss rates nor a close look at the machines themselves bears it out. German tanks did not knock out Allied tanks at disproportionate rates; they knocked them out at marginally higher rates, which is to be expected, considering they were fighting a defensive war, often in ideal terrain (Normandy, Huertgen, etc).

The Panzer IV, workhorse of the German Panzerkorps, was hardly better than the Sherman in any way, and possibly worse. It was smaller, lighter, slower, and carried less armor, while its gun was, admittedly, marginally more effective. But this mattered precious little, because they were both equally capable of knocking the other out!

Late war German tanks (and I'm thinking here especially of the Panther), while better on paper, were plagued with design and mechanical issues, generally being overweight, difficult to service, having poor transmissions, weak final drives, leaking fuel lines, underpowered engines, and the like. In practice, these flaws combined to frequently render them little more than (very stout) mobile pillboxes. By the time 17-pounder and 76mm Shermans started showing up, combat parity was pretty nearly achieved. When your tanks are not only scarce and slow to produce, but difficult to service, prone to breakdown, and only marginally more effective, you've got problems.

Of course, the irony is that that article you linked is about the movie Fury, which is an absolute shitstorm of misconceptions, largely inspired by a book written by Belton Cooper called Deathtraps. Cooper was a mechanic who got a close-hand look at knocked out Shermans; of course that's going to color his view. The climactic tank battle at the end of Fury is pure fantasy. The 75mm-equipped Shermans would have struggled to take it frontally, but the 76mm-equipped Fury could have reliably put rounds through the Tiger from any angle as far out as 1,000 meters.

Edit: Have you edited your comment since initially posting it? I feel like I'm arguing with something that no longer exists.

[–]Das_Schnabeltier[S] 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah he's been editing his post. I think he added some more stuff and quotes. Unfortunately he's not marking the edits.

[–]Rittermeisterunusually well armed humanitarian group 23ポイント24ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's turned into such a rambling mess of huge block quotes and hyperlinks that I've become completely befuddled.

[–]khosikulutenured lvl 600 fern entity 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

secondhand wikipedia and blog quotes, we're in for it now

[–]misunderstandgapPre-Marx, Marx, Post-Marx studies. All three fields of history. 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

No WWII bomber had enough firepower to protect itself from heavy fighter attack without escort. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Not the B-17; certainly not the shitty, already-obsolescent-in-1940 HE 111s the Germans relied upon.

I think you can debate this in the case of the B-29, which certainly seemed to give as good as it got in many cases, and crucially had the turrets controlled by a gunfire control computer which calculated necessary lead.

[–]Sid_Burn 32ポイント33ポイント  (29子コメント)

The US and UK also sneered at the German and Japanese attempts to imitate ancient codes of the honourable warrior. the Japanese tried to resurrect the Bushido code and the Germans tried to invent a code of honourable warriors at places like Wewelsburg[4

MFW

I don't think it's controversial to say that the US and UK had far more extreme war arms (at the end of the war unconditional surrender of their opponents versus merely forcing them to accept a new status quo with limits on their influence) than Japan and Germany

http://i.imgur.com/jqhukMk.gif

[–]Beansareno1Judeo-bolshevik 27ポイント28ポイント  (0子コメント)

Inventing a whole industry, something which is unparalleled in history, to mass murder civilians sure says honor codex like nothing else.

[–]MDFificationHolism Fetishist 21ポイント22ポイント  (14子コメント)

Upvoted purely for actually trying to provide sources for your argument. 10/10 badhistorian. A higher (lower?) tier of person we mock.

[–]BritainOpPlsNerfParty like its 1939 24ポイント25ポイント  (15子コメント)

Pls get out

As far as Shermans being bad compared to Panzers I think it's well documented.

Regurgitating this trope? Intothetrashyougo.

Even Hastings, a journalist who rode the "Muh superior Wehrmacht" train quite hard, noted that the Panzer IV was "slightly obsolescent" compared to the early Shermans. Kekkles.

[–]Colonel_BlimpO Fisher-san, give me your Dreadnought! 8ポイント9ポイント  (3子コメント)

Your quote on the Sherman seems to disagree with you, and you've displayed no evidence that the Lancaster was "low-tech". You realise daylight bombing, even with many escorts, over hostile territory didn't go any better for the Germans right?

They tended to mass produce 'good enough' designs instead of going for wonder weapons like Germany. They

Yeah, those German bombers really were wonder weapons...look, there's a reason the football chant is about German bombers being shot down and not the other way around, lets put it that way.

[–]BritainOpPlsNerfParty like its 1939 11ポイント12ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your quote on the Sherman seems to disagree with you, and you've displayed no evidence that the Lancaster was "low-tech". You realise daylight bombing, even with many escorts, over hostile territory didn't go any better for the Germans right?

Of course it fucking does...he quoted Zaloga:

Also its clear to me he never read his so-called sources, or at the very least failed to understand them. The man cited Zaloga; who you would be hard pressed to call a critic of the Sherman if you actually read him. Asides from being a foremost voice on WWII armored vehicles and employment, he is a powerful advocate for reinforcing the proof of the favorable kill to loss ratio achieved by US tank and tank destroyer battalions, and the poor logistical performances of the Panther.

See, I can fucking hammer my keyboard hard and fast on google as well, but a black belt in google-fu doesn't mean you actually know a lick about the people you are citing. Then the shitposter wonders why we're not taking him seriously.

look, there's a reason the football chant is about German bombers being shot down and not the other way around, lets put it that way

You uh...piqued my interest. Is it safe to share with us?

[–]Colonel_BlimpO Fisher-san, give me your Dreadnought! 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

You uh...piqued my interest. Is it safe to share with us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfPMBmWO2ag

[–]ciderczarUnrepentant Ouiaboo 19ポイント20ポイント  (39子コメント)

Oh honey...

[–]Bigglesworth_ -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

They were more willing to use more force earlier in the war to achieve those aims (particularly the UK which had a doctrine that 'the bomber will always get through' that was predicated on carpet bombing being used.

Nobody started the war with a doctrine of unrestricted strategic bombing, Baldwin's speech was about the fear of the bomber, trying to get some movement on arms restrictions; it continued "The only defence is in offence, which means that you have to kill more women and children more quickly than the enemy if you want to save yourselves", a nightmarish vision not a policy statement. RAF rules of engagement were incredibly strict at the start of the war, to the point that warships could only be attacked at sea, not in port, lest collateral damage result. Escalation was a gradual process driven by circumstance and necessity, "more force earlier in the war" is utter nonsense considering Luftwaffe actions such as Guernica, Warsaw and Rotterdam; there are arguments that those were attacks on military targets with regrettable civilian casualties as opposed to specifically targeting civilians, but equally RAF raids were trying to hit military and industrial targets, but with unescorted daylight bombing unsustainable (for anybody, the Luftwaffe had also abandoned daylight raids by the end of 1940) any sort of precision was impossible. Once that was realised (e.g. the Butt report of 1941), tactics were reformulated and area attacks, using large quantities of incendiaries, became the norm, modelled in no small part on the German attack on Coventry (see also: origin of the verb "to coventrate").

The point about Lancaster being low tech consider (stuff)

I'm failing to see where "low tech" comes in, unless you're defining "technology" as "defensive armament"? Heavy bombers might, broadly, be more conventional technology than flying bombs or rockets, but there are colossal advances from bombers navigating by luck and a sextant in 1940; H2S ground scanning radar, Gee and Oboe navigation beams, electronic countermeasures, Monica early warning radar (though granted that was more of a beacon for night fighters once sussed out).

US bombers could protect themselves better but even the US decided to switch from precision bombing in the day to area bombing at night

Not at night, no, the USAAF always bombed by day. There were early hopes of precision (bolstered by the "pickle barrel" claims of the Norden sight, an impressive piece of technology but not particularly practical as it turned out, especially in European conditions with targets obscured by cloud and industrial haze much of the time), but that's difficult with a single bomber, let alone a massive formation.

They regarded war as being something which was fought between the industrial bases of countries rather than purely by warriors. Hence the carpet bombing of German and Japanese industry.

Ignoring the German targeting of British industry (e.g. Coventry), U-boat campaigns etc that all preceded the combined bomber offensive beginning in earnest?