Problems with the Men's Rights Movement.

KrisK_lvin · 6時間前

I was also overweight for most of my adolescence and couldn't even get a date until I lost most of my weight.

Upsetting as this no doubt was at the time, this has sweet FA to do with MRAs. You're thinking of the Red Pill, possibly PUAs, probably not MGTOW.

Now it can be confusing as there is clearly some overlap between these four groups, but crucially - and quite helpfully if you ask me - the names they call themselves by and the vocabulary they use to talk about their ideas are kind of a clue that they are, in fact, not the same at all.

Even the girls who couldn't get a date to save their lives used to reject me. Due to growing up in this environment I developed some extreme misogynistic feelings towards women […] Soon after this I discovered the Men's Rights Movement (MRM) online. I read blog posts, articles, and other material …

Would you care to name one of them? Because if what you're about to say, as I suspect it is, is Return of Kings, then you're in the wrong place. That site is not an MRA site.

You can tell it's not an MRA site from this article called 5 Reasons I Am Not A Men’s Rights Activist which includes such gems as "The majority of fervent MRA’s come across as… well, to put it bluntly – losers."

You can also tell that it's not an MRA site by it's repeated references to Red pills and Blue pills, such as here.

You see that difference, don't you? Different names - The Red Pill, PUA, MGTOW, MRA - are kind of a big hint that they are not the same and that they make the differences amongst these groups quite explicit.

… over the past few months I've found it hard to relate to the movement as a whole due to some of the trends I've seen ... I feel that if these trends continue the movement for men's rights will eventually shut down, leaving boys and men to suffer in silence once again.

Suffer in silence from what? From being overweight and not being able to get a girlfriend? That's not really a men's rights or even a human rights issue. There is the right to a family life in the UN charter, I believe, but that means the right not to have others prevent you from having a family life - it's not a guarantee of one.

Constantly writing articles that attack women …

Attack women or attack Feminists? While many feminists are women, not all women are feminists. There is no necessary connection between the two.

If you do actually mean articles attacking women as women name one. Actually, no, name at least five - if you say it's happening constantly then you must have a great deal of evidence, mustn't you?

Constantly attacking/criticizing Feminists in a nonproductive manner … As an ex-misogynist I completely understand where these hostile feelings are coming from

Define non-productive.

Also, there is no relation between criticising Feminism and being a misogynist. Feminists such as yourself tend to assume this automatically, but that's partly a consequence of attributing a political motive to every action a person makes.

There is no such thing as an objective truth in this view, only form of knowledge that supports what they consider to be the oppressor or the oppressed. But that understanding is only relevant and true to a believer. To a non-believer in that world view it's meaningless drivel. Hence, disagreement with feminism is a heresy and the new word for a heretic is a misogynist.

Focusing on pointless issues … An example of this would be the recent articles, criticisms, and attacks on the recently released Mad Max movie. As a filmmaker as well as screenwriter ...

sighs

Yes, you are again wrong. The criticism of Mad Max came from The Return of Kings.

Remember them? They're the ones I just told you described MRAs as "well, to put it bluntly – losers."

You maybe a filmmaker and a screenwriter - am I supposed to impressed by that by the way? - because judging by your research skills, you are probably not a very successful at either.

It seems like lately MRA's are more focused on attacking Feminists than fighting for the rights of the men

I've heard this accusation before and understand it's quite a common one. A number of Feminists are actively pushing for policies that would discriminate against men and have already succeeded in pushing through a number of policies that are quite plainly discriminatory.

Not surprisingly, they come under criticism for doing so.

An example would be some of the recent false-rape protests by MRA's on college campuses. In some instances the protests go well, but others have gotten out of control. In one case MRA's decided to jam the phone services to a campus-rape hotline that people could call in case of an emergency.

OK, you got me here. I've never heard this story and you provide no link.

Judging by your efforts so far, my suspicion is you've got it wrong again. I will also assume that even if you can find a story that describes MRAs as jamming rape crisis phone lines, I am willing to bet money that this is a completely groundless assertion made against some nasty pranksters / trolls who have been labelled MRAs without any shred of actual evidence.

This one speaks for itself. With terms like alpha, beta, red-pill, and blue-pill

The only thing this speaks to is that you are yourself a Feminist troll because you have, as has been pointed out already, no understanding of the differences and similarities between MRAs, MGTOW, The Red Pill or PUAs.

Here, you are clearly talking about The Red Pill - the give away there is the reference to the red-pill - who are not only not MRAs but often are quite derisive of MRAs.

… I am not a member of the MRM I still support what they are trying to accomplish

Sure you do. You support it so much you don't even know what it is having spent the entire 'novel' describing the actions of The Red Pill as MRAs.

You know on that subject, a lot of Feminists, on the rare occasions that they will actually enter a debate, generally avoid having to make counter-arguments by simply putting up their hands and saying things like 'It's not us!' or 'That's not real feminists' and so and so on.

But the thing is, while there are multiple forms of Feminism and they don't all agree on everything - whether trans-women can be considered women at all is a hot topic among them for example - they all do still nevertheless go by the name of Feminist and by and large draw on the same vocabulary e.g. heteronormative patriarchal oppression and so on.

You would think therefore that by calling things by different names - MRA/MRM, PUA, The Red Pill and MGTOW - it would kind of be a clue that there is not just a minor difference in doctrine but a more pronounced difference altogether.

Still, no one would expect a no doubt successful filmmaker and screenwriter to be bothered to do anything so simple as check some facts.

Dr_Faustus · 5時間前

Firstly, there is no single MRM movement. There are several movements and each is supported by their own ideology. Every "group" is subject to the tendency to fracture. Every movement attracts unstable personalities. It's an old trick to represent a movement's outliers as its mean. I wonder if you haven't fallen for this trick?

F. I agree with this assessment. But I think it's also worth mentioning that, as far as I'm aware, women enjoy a slight political majority (USA). Holding a simple majority in a democratic process is the very definition of political power. Women also have a tendency to vote in a unified direction and with unified purpose - more or less. Certainly, men have to make significant strides in organization. But the female interest in most western political systems is huge. Feminist organizations yell, loudly. They are well funded and arguably entrenched in the political process. Feminists have spent decades decrying male "privilege." So when men organize for political reform the easy rebuttal is to claim we are "whining" and secretly lusting to reestablish our dominance. Never mind that the last male generation to have any kind of meaningful power in most social situations is dead or dying. At 36, I have absolutely no personal experience with the "privileges" supposedly enjoyed by my grandfathers.

E. These terms are faction-specific. While MRAs should subscribe to a core set of values to "qualify" as an MRA, that some of these faction express those values in a different light is to be expected. What the generic MRM should not do is censor those factions. Instead we should patiently and persistently refocus the discussion to those core values all MRAs hold in common.

D. I think you're correct here. Jamming phone lines was probably a poor move. But I think this speaks to a lack of leadership in the movement as a whole. The men who pulled that off could be a valuable asset to a strong MRM with universal appeal.

C. I don't have a problem with this. Every movement vents frustrations about the status quo. Again, the solution is to refocus and reaffirm those common core values all MRAs have. Of course, this requires leadership. Which, admittedly, the overall MRM has an apparent lack of purpose.

Perhaps a caucus is in order? Maybe it's time our clans meet, confer, and come to a decision about the purpose of our cause.

thekarateguy · 6時間前

Get ready for the down votes!

I suppose one MIGHT argue that the bitching about feminism does have a place (it IS helpful to have the wool pulled from one's eyes), but I agree that it seems like half the posts here and in the MRM-o-sphere indulge in this rather than actual activism.

Mikeavelli · 4時間前

I like this post. Discussion is good, and helps the movement.

A.

I actually agree with you on many of these points. Dating, sex, and rejection are difficult issues, and most of these articles seem to be clickbaity stuff intended to attract the male equivalent of Cosmo readers.

That said, Marriage as an institution is definitely weighted against men every step of the way. At the moment, there's very little incentive for men to get married, and severe financial penalties for men who get divorced. The laws surrounding marriage, and precedents established in family court, were created in a time when women really were expected to sacrifice their professional lives in order to keep house. As laws and culture change to allow women greater autonomy in their lives, marriage laws need to change in order to keep up.

B.

Most MRA's criticize what I like to refer to as 'Tumblr feminism' - which is, frankly, the vast majority of what we're exposed to.

And yup, a lot of posters to /r/mensrights are bitter as all hell at women. I see it as our responsibility to give them a place to vent, and lead them back into a place where they can realize that despite there being one particular woman who wronged them, most women are still wonderful people.

C.

I'm as confused as you were about people hating the Mad Max thing. My pet theory is that it was a viral marketing campaign to try and attract the female market. The criticism was that Mad Max was somehow a 'trick' advertising explosions and receiving feminist propaganda. When I went to see it, I saw an awesome generic action movie with plenty of explosions where one of two main characters happened to be a woman. I suppose the complete lack of surprise I feel at a female main character action hero is something of a victory for the feminist movement though.

It also had a similarly generic 'save the women' plotline which no-one is talking about. Only one of the brides was a complete character, and (spoilers) she dies. As far as I could tell, the rest of them didn't even have names!

D.

False rape accusations are a hot issue on college campuses right now. Most of the recent highly publicized rape accusations (UVA, Mattress Girl) turned out to be false - and plenty of top tier universities are adopting policies that are actively hostile to young men. Don't take my word for it, the Harvard Law School faculty are pretty eloquent about why this is a problem.

The MRA movement has a problem with anonymous reporting hotlines, because there's no way to verify anonymously reported tips are accurate. We have nothing but the word of administrators (who we don't trust, because they're publicly instituting policies that are blatantly unfair to any accused person) that disciplinary actions connected to these hotlines are fairly carried out.

E.

/r/mensrights doesn't support things like /r/theredpill - and we actively try to distance ourselves from that garbage.

F.

The Mens right movement does organize conferences. They receive death threats. This has severely restricted our ability to make public appearances.

jimmywiddle · 4時間前

So based on your post everyone should sit around on their arse and do nothing at all. Not point out things they disagree with, not highlight areas of mis-justice. Just ignore everything ?

The MRA is not falling apart it is raising awareness by talking about these issues. Its growing and becoming more and more popular. Years ago when feminist articles were posted no one dared stand up and present the other half of the story, now we have lots of people both within the MRA folds but also just regular folk who have been encouraged by MRAs standing up against the feminist ideology also standing up and making a stand.

That is progress. The more people stand up against these issues that are important to them, the louder the voice and the more attention it will accumulate.

Sure there some people that might (in your view) take things too far, but thats up to them and its not your place to police them. If they believe that a TV programme or a film is offensive then let them raise the point. If you don't agree with it, move on.

You mention too much talk and not enough action, but you have no idea what kinds of actions are being triggered(no pun intended) as a result of online discussion. I have actioned at least 3 campaigns based on this reddit alone and had success so when people come on and claim nothing is happening it just makes you look ignorant.

Together we are powerful and can make a difference, and we have made a difference. Talk like yours just makes it blatantly obvious that you know nothing about MRMs and the motives behind why we do what we do.

el_chief · 4時間前

So, shut up and not vent our anger and frustration?

Perhaps you could suggest some actual fucking actions to take?

Frankly_George · 3時間前

Hmmm... You seem concerned...

ExpendableOne · 5時間前

A. Constantly writing articles that attack women in regards to dating, sex, marriage, and rejection. These articles do nothing at all to further men's rights, and very few them include information that can help men.

Why wouldn't we highlight social gender issues when it comes to dating, sex and marriage? They literally affect everyone, of pretty much every generation, and are the very root of so many other issues(male disposability and male suicide rates are pretty much directly linked to social gender issues when it comes to male/female relations, discrepancies and double-standards, and ridiculous expectations placed on men because of their gender). Sex and dating is a basic fundamental piece of human existence, unfairness and discrimination in these areas will affect men in every other aspect of their lives, and the power/privilege women have in these areas will affect them in every other aspect of their lives as well. More importantly, why shouldn't we be holding holding women accountable for bad, hostile and demeaning behaviour towards men? Because it's politically incorrect to hold any woman accountable for anything?

B. Constantly attacking/criticizing Feminists in a nonproductive manner.

Feminism and women are not the same thing, and every time people befuddle the two, that needs to be addressed. There are still plenty of reasons why feminism needs to be opposed, whether it's worded in a constructive, nice or PC manner.

C. Focusing on pointless issues.

Pretty sure most MRA's didn't give a fuck out of the madmax movie, and you are essentially creating something out of nothing there but, regardless, every issue matters. Just because something might seem small to you, doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. It's a free forum.

D. Forgetting it's roots.

The two are the same thing. Fighting for men's rights and fighting against feminism, which is has a long and well-documented history of misandry and opposition to men's rights/equality, are both part of the same process.

E. MRA's have been dividing men as a whole instead of uniting them. This one speaks for itself. With terms like alpha, beta, red-pill, and blue-pill it's easy to see why some men don't find a place in the MRM.

The redpill sub is not the men's rights movement. Not everyone subscribes to that terminology. Regardless, there would certainly be times where those terms are actually needed to describe social behaviour. It doesn't help anyone to pretend like those words, or the sentiments behind them, don't exist.

F. Too much talk, not enough action.

This is firstly, a forum for discussion and awareness. If you want to see more action, there is noting stopping you from taking more initiative of your own and starting something yourself(instead of coming here to "talk" about all the things you don't like about the movement).

perplexedm · 5時間前

You points are interesting, but those are about what MRAs should not do.

Can you similarly detail some 'to do's ?

xynomaster · 5時間前

I agree 100% OP, I just don't know what to do to make it better. Some things I'd actually like to see worked on would be to get conscription classified as a human rights abuse (or at least start by eliminating it in first world countries), to work against the presumption that men or boys who are victims of sexual abuse or rape must be "lucky", or that men/boys who are victims of domestic abuse at the hands of women deserve ridicule, to reform prison systems to keep huge proportions of men from being incarcerated for minor crimes and then abused, to end police brutality and racism, and to help keep low-performing boys engaged and doing well in school.

I'm sure I'm missing a few other issues, but if we focused on this rather than bashing feminism all the time we might get a lot more done.

DavidByron2 · 6時間前

So basically (with plenty of repetition) you don't like people criticizing the feminist hate movement, you think the MRA is ineffective (it isn't) and you pretend pathetic issues like the Mad Max came from the MRA when they came from feminists.

I don't see anything in that worth responding too. File that under your point C if you like.

tygertiger · 4時間前

A lot of your post is mixing up MRAs with PUAs. Red pill, beta, alpha...these are all terms and concepts used by TRP and PUA communities. MRAs are focused on issues that affect men and boys, like media vilification, false rape accusations, fathers rights, circumcision, the boy crisis, suicide, etc. etc.

You need to do more research on the differences between these movements. Most Red Pill and PUA men do not consider themselves MRAs.

Apart from that, I agree with many of your other points. I do think we should be extremely self-critical within the MRA movement. It will only strengthen what we have to say.

lost_garden_gnome · 5時間前

On mobile now, but I will come back to this because I agree with you on some points and disagree on others

yummyluckycharms · 4時間前

When dealing with psychopaths, I find the turning the other cheek approach to be counter productive - cause - um - these people are psychopaths. The best way to deal with a bully is to confront them, stop their violence, and make sure that they know that if persist in trying to violate you, they will be dealt with extreme prejudice.

The problem with what you are advocating OP, is that you are not only suggesting that one should ignore the violently mentally ill that are known as feminists, but that we should also not fight back when they do attack.

Also, even if this sub gets shut down, they cant shut down the manosphere and the red pill world. Too many men are becoming aware, improving themselves, and learning how to use the system against the oppressive matriarchy. Why aren't you doing the same?

InBaggingArea · 3時間前

This is a sack of large American gonads.

But there is nothing to stop you doing what you suggest. On present form you want us to do it for you. Hasta la vista compadre.

What prominent activists are you taking about? Go talk to them about it, out contribute directly to ongoing discussions about particular issues.

liquid_j · 2時間前

I'm glad you made the post today... I can now set my watch

wazzup987 · 1時間前

/r/MenrightsSansFeminism cough cough you get far with that kind of rhetoric in this sub, its become ideological in nature

s45967000 · 54分前

Constantly writing articles that attack women in regards to dating, sex, marriage, and rejection.

Tired of uneducated guys like you writing off important issues that affect men just because they aren't DIRECTLY tied to men's rights. Every single one of these issues is relevant, from how man has to pay on a first date (wage gap) to NAWALT (dismissive attitude of women who benefit from feminism). To claim that these issues aren't relevant to MRM is to misunderstand the nature of how your rights are derived or what affects them. Splinter groups like red pill and MGTOW are just different facets of the same argument.

Constantly attacking/criticizing Feminists in a nonproductive manner.

This is ridiculous. You're basically trying to pass of your emasculated hippie views as the 'moderate' view. To correct an injustice is by definition to "attack" the injustice. When men are exposing the hypocrisy of feminism, it's BECAUSE their rights are being systematically denied by feminists. For you to diminish and shame men for doing this is to place yourself in the feminist camp that equates all anger against feminist hypocrisy with misogyny. I.e., you're basically a concern troll.

Focusing on pointless issues.

It's true that a lot of guys in here reach for issues where there are none. But it's also true that feminism has infected much of our culture and media and it's only right that men point it out. It's complete bullshit to discount the feminist agenda in popular entertainment. The new version of Mad Max is obviously feminist in nature, even the director himself admits it. This just goes to show how poorly educated and unwittingly emasculated you are under feminism. You're like a pathetic slave trying to convince his fellow slaves that slavery isn't so bad as long as you behave yourself.

Forgetting it's roots

Focusing on the hostility and hypocrisy of feminism is innately tied to men's rights. You're either uneducated in these matters or being deliberately deceptive. In either case, your concern troll speech isn't relevant because you have to understand the roots before you can lecture about forgetting the roots. You don't understand either point.

MRA's have been dividing men as a whole instead of uniting them.

This is probably your most relevant point out of all this mess. Yes, I agree with you, the MRM is VERY DIVISIVE. It even fails to address its critics and censors those that disagree with it. This is a shame to all men calling themselves MRAs since men are defined by their spine not their lack of it. Men who cower before criticism shouldn't refer to themselves as men. They should refer to themselves as passive-aggressive women. It's impossible for the MRM to unite men when it is busy censoring the voice of men.

One of the biggest problems has to do with alienating groups like "pickup artists", red pillers, and MGTOW. MRM has a tendency to elevate delusional leaders who have a vested interest in controlling/censoring the conversation to benefit their own personal agenda. This will invariably create contentious factions within the MRM. Leaving our work open to scrutiny from the outside world is the only safeguard against this cancer. Unfortunately, the mods in here as well as those in charge of major sites are very heavy handed with their censorship policies so we just have to make do until a larger number of men wake up to this hypocrisy. It's funny how we are all on board when it comes to putting cameras on cops because we know that hiding the inner workings of authority is a dangerous recipe for abuse, but sadly we still haven't learned that lesson when it comes to our own dealings with each other. We still let authoritative cowards operate with impunity because we're not allowed to call anybody out publicly without being censored. Such is the imperfect nature of the internet. Thankfully these cowards can't silence you in person, where it matters the most.

Too much talk, not enough action.

This is part of the reason why MRM exists in the first place. This is a group of very passive, very emasculated men. They are resistant to change because their self-esteem is based on their delusional view of how they think relationships should work. Fortunately this point is starting to hit home with a lot of men who are taking the 'action' admonishment more seriously.

54345345asdfasd34534 · 2時間前

Dude, shut the fuck up.

Men are homeless, men are killing themselves, men are being ignored en masse, screaming out for help and being mocked and silenced, and you're concerned about tone policing.

This subreddit spends more time talking about the "positive points of feminism" than it does fixing anything. Meanwhile, men are killing themselves, going homeless, being divorce raped, being accused of rape, etc. etc. etc. Focus on what matters.

Kill_Your_Ego · 6時間前

This sub takes some action, rarely, by supporting the rare politicians who try to shine a light on male issues. Mike Buchanan is there. Shared parenting has been pushed a few times. It's just that men's rights can not work. Once you have a better understanding of our human biology you get this.

Women have an in group bias towards other women. They support other women over men and will form groups for this. Men have an out group bias towards women as well. So men will support other women over men.

Hence fighting for a male issue will never work. We have to find other ways to fight if we want to try to fix our broken culture. Attacking feminists is a good thing. Men will band together to fight an enemy, and feminists are an enemy. Men will never band together to fight women, so it's important that we reinforce that feminists do not represent women. They represent a bunch of high T crazies who want to encourage mass degeneracy and promiscuity, that continues even into marriage if the woman so desires.

This is also why feminists are so demanding that feminism = women. Because once we all realize that feminists are hurting men, children, but also hurting women then men will band together.

So use men's rights for some news links, outrage porn, and banding men together a little. And then hopefully these men will find other links in the manosphere, read some of the classic Men's Rights books like the excellent;

A Case for Father Custody - Daniel Amneus

And if they have anger to process they can go to theredpill, if they have other ways to contribute they'll have to eventually move into a different group. Challenging feminists is a good thing to do though. It helps pull everyone together and spreads the word that feminism does not represent women. It's just a hate group.

hellowayer · 6時間前

A. Constantly writing articles that attack women in regards to dating, sex, marriage, and rejection.

MRAs have copycated feminism in this respect.

B. Constantly attacking/criticizing Feminists in a nonproductive manner.

MRAs have copycated feminism in this respect.

C. Focusing on pointless issues.

MRAs have copycated feminism in this respect.

Etc.

MattClark0995 · 3時間前

Thought this was going to be another "it's not a left/right issue" whining rant by a left winger. Glad it wasn't.

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/r/MensRightsLinks	/r/MRRef
/r/MensRightsLaw	/r/MRActivism
/r/LadyMRAs	/r/FeMRA

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/r/Daddit	/r/intactivists
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/r/MaleLifestyle	/r/MensRants

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The Men's Rights subreddit is a place for those who wish to discuss men's rights and the ways said rights are infringed upon.

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