全 103 件のコメント

[–]TotesMessenger 22ポイント23ポイント  (27子コメント)

[–]thatoneguy54 12ポイント13ポイント  (10子コメント)

From the debate one:

It's basically doing to men what high school health classes are trying to do to sex and marijuana and it's just so toxic. I wonder if there's a single person writing on "toxic masculinity", in the entire history of academia or related thinkers, who could out deadlift a certified alpha like /u/GayLubeOil . When I can read the work of masculine role models like him on reddit, why would I take seriously the conceptions of masculinity by someone else? It's so foreign to what being a hyper masculine man is all about.

lel

[–]Cultural_AnarchistGamers = Subaltern 17ポイント18ポイント  (15子コメント)

/r/femradedebates has convinced me the biggest problem in the feminism/MRA debate is that the MRA side is completely illiterate.

[–]thatoneguy54 9ポイント10ポイント  (9子コメント)

One problem is that there are no feminists there.

[–]Cultural_AnarchistGamers = Subaltern 7ポイント8ポイント  (3子コメント)

Honestly, with comments like this and this and this, why would a feminist want to post there?

[–]Leinadro -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Nothing worse towards feminists than your above comment that the mra side is illeterate.

[–]Cultural_AnarchistGamers = Subaltern 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

He says while misspelling illiterate.

[–]ChokeZero 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'm not sure if you're being ironic or not... I've never gone to that sub, and I just discovered this sub, so I don't know if I fully understand what the sub is about, but are you saying that all MRAs are illiterate and all feminists are literate? Or maybe you're saying that the reason that it seems like all the MRAs are illiterate because there are no feminists to show that there are plenty of illiterate feminists. I'm not trying to start anything, so don't take this the wrong way. I just didn't quite understand your comment.

[–]thatoneguy54 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think Cultural_Anarchist is saying that the MRAs in the sub seem to be illiterate because they don't seem to argue anything that has to do with the points being made by the non-MRAs. Like it's seems like that most of the people who have problems with this write up of masculinity never even bothered to read it, or else just woefully misinterpreted it.

My comment was about how there don't seem to be any feminists in that sub.

[–]ChokeZero 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I guess what I don't understand is how the small number of feminists has to do with the way the MRAs respond to stuff.

[–]thatoneguy54 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm saying a sub devoted to feminism-MRA debates that is devoid of feminists is a bad sub.

[–]rickyharline -5ポイント-4ポイント  (0子コメント)

The bigger discussions will usually get some feminists, but, yeah. I'd really prefer it have triple or quadruple its current feminist base. The community is super respectful and mature, so I do wish more feminists would join in the conversation.

[–]Gruzman -5ポイント-4ポイント  (3子コメント)

that the MRA side is completely illiterate.

It's almost as if one side hides in a cloistered academic setting and refuses debate at the layman level beyond the occasional petty jab in social media.

[–]Cultural_AnarchistGamers = Subaltern 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

By any chance do you think you could come off as more tone deaf? I mean, you're getting really salty about me not taking your buddies seriously (like, at all) while posting in a thread where people are literally discussing a topic that frequently comes up in feminist discourse in an informal, non-academic setting. All of which you are doing while making a petty jab via social media.

[–]Gruzman -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

By any chance do you think you could come off as more tone deaf?

I probably think I could, especially considering that you seem to use people's tone as an indicator of how right they are about something. So gauche.

I mean, I get it, it's about taking a break from all the heady feminist discourse and just chilling and shooting the shit about the powerful, immoral and undemocratic people you encounter in your lives. I'll leave you be.

[–]Cultural_AnarchistGamers = Subaltern 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually I think you succeeded!

[–]new_c -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is there really an actual debate going on? I like to believe MRAs keep out of the public eye for a reason.

[–]snozberrydriveby 50ポイント51ポイント  (28子コメント)

Good post - the people that it could help the most won't give the logic an ounce of respect because they see being called the "norm" as a compliment instead of a sociological statement and equate attacking the norm to attacking a fringe, but it's still a great breakdown of the issue.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 31ポイント32ポイント  (27子コメント)

Yeah, identifying and unpacking problems surrounding concepts of normal and normative behaviors is so hard because we see it as the obvious. Sometimes when I teach I suggest they think about how hard it would be to step into another way of being and pass for a member. Just look at all the actors who spend hours and hours training with experts on speech patterns, gait, attitudes, facial expressions, etc. and who have people doing their clothing and hair. And yet still we often mock an actor's bad accent or awkwardness or poor costume. If someone who is an expert at putting on another way of being has difficulty why do we expect it to be easy for everyday people to do?

Once we establish that code switching convincingly is hard we can get into how the need to do so in order to succeed suggests someone's own cultural way of being is wrong and bad. While every culture has practices, beliefs, taboos, and restrictions that are problematic they also have ones that are beautiful, fascinating, and worth being proud about. Balancing the desire to retain your background and not feel ashamed about it with the need to hide your background to succeed is difficult psychologically and just practically. Couple that with the drawbacks that white masculinity has (just as any normative role has) and how you have to handle embodying something you might disagree with at times. No wonder it is a source of tension and debate. No wonder people test boundaries and try to contest or change the norm. No wonder people try to carve out spaces within system of power for themselves.

And then we can have a civil debate and discussion about how to resolve this tension. Not that an undergrad class is going to resolve the problems of multiculturalism, racism, and the boundaries of cultural relativity. But at least a conversation can happen.

But yeah I'm not really expecting that from trolls. I kind of just needed to get it out somewhere. So instead of ranting on a hundred threads I just put it here. Where no one who needs to read it probably will but oh well.

[–]tlacomixleI've studied history on and off since I was 8 38ポイント39ポイント  (2子コメント)

Great post! Sort of tangential, but you made a really good point with

When black men wearing baggy pants and a gold necklace are told to dress and speak "normal" they are actually being told to dress and speak like a middle class white American man.

I'm in one of the whitest fields there is (ecology/zoology/evolution) so I'm less familiar with the race aspect, but my field is also at or near gender parity and the proportion of women is constantly increasing. A conversation that comes up time to time is professionalism.

Everyone, at least at the level of graduate student, is completely aware that women are held to much narrower standards- for example, I can inject a lot more humor, fun, and silliness into a talk than a woman can before being labelled unserious and unprofessional. I talked to a public radio reporter too and she said that the station constantly gets letters saying that the women reporters don't sound professional- they actually keep a stack of such letters.

The basic thing is that professionalism is defined by masculinity so women are, to many people, unprofessional by definition. Most people who are "concerned" about women's unprofessionalism aren't really aware of that, and they don't really think of what a "professional" woman would be like or how their ideas of a "professional" man or "professional" woman differ. I think they actually can be receptive to changing their ways; I gave a talk to a small group of mostly older conservative-leaning people once about linguistic discrimination and they were surprisingly receptive.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 25ポイント26ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks! The normative expectations for professionalism are really interesting especially in academia. There is a very delicate and contested balance between an almost hyper-masculinity vs trying to avoid being labeled a bitch or bossy. On the one hand, women report that they tried to downplay femininity through avoiding pink, being very modest with makeup, avoiding too many family photos or mentions of children, etc. Another study found

Our empirical findings show that the paradox of visibility enables us to explain why female students tend to make themselves invisible by acting and dressing like boys and, at the same time, they need to make themselves visible if they want to pursue a career in the highly competitive field of earth sciences.

On the other hand, denying femininity too much and putting on manhood can result in snarky comments and accusations that she is a bitch or aloof. And, as the second article suggests, it can make women too invisible thereby reducing odds they will get academic positions. When it comes to the label of professionalism it seems women have more to prove and lose it easier in many ways.

[–]pezz29 11ポイント12ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm finding the normative academic expectations really frustrating. I'm only masters level, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'm doing gender studies. We spent several weeks discussing queer theory. But it's still so obvious how strong the pressure is to fit 'the good academic' subjectivity.

We got so many panicky emails from our course convener about getting the punctuation 100% perfect in our bibliographies, for fuck's sake. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for not stealing people's shit, but it's "here's weeks' worth of lectures questioning stable identities, established power structures, and processes of subjectivisation. Now here is exactly how all of your assignments should look and how we interact in class and about a thousand websites' worth of admin. Please do not include the word 'irony' in any responses you may have to this statement."

Now I've gone on a tangent to a tangent, but graarrr it really annoys me how fussy academia is about its subject positions.

[–]SnapshillBot 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Snapshots:

I am a bot. (Info / Contact)

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

Meta meta

[–]flapjackalope 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

This is a little bit OT and not a critique, but I'm genuinely curious about the Connell citations, as Connell is a transwoman now writing as R. W. or Raewyn. Of course citing her pre-transition work means she still would've been publishing as Robert, which I understand, but I'm curious about the, idk, etiquette of referring to her as "him" in this case. Does anyone have thoughts on this or know Connell's own preferences on the matter?

[–]queerbeesWaggle Dance Performativity 6ポイント7ポイント  (1子コメント)

Most of Connell's stuff, even before her transition, was printed under the gender neutral "R W Connell." My 1987 print of Gender & Power was authored by "R. W. Connell." So that would be the preferred way to write it.

[–]flapjackalope 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

In-text it makes sense to just call her "Connell" anyway. I guess my approach, if I'd ever had to cite her, would be to refer to her as "Connell" and let the bibliography sort itself out based on how it was listed by the publisher. If I absolutely have to use a pronoun, I'd use "she" even for the "Robert" instances, but I wasn't sure if this instinct was the same as what standard practice is/ought to be.

Thanks for the reply.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

You know I totally forgot about her transition. I don't know her preferences to how she should be referred to in her earlier work. An admittedly quick search didn't turn up any preference discussions. I am on my mobile now but I'll change identifiers to a neutral "they" later today.

Edit: just fixed it. I also updated zotero which i was too lazy to use originally (citations are how Google has them and I didn't look closely which is my fault). But my zotero entries were outdated too because I'm old and my entries from her older publications.

[–]ChicaneryBear 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

The work has been reprinted under her new name, so I don't think there's any reason to use her old pronouns.

[–]SRSthrowaway524 12ポイント13ポイント  (0子コメント)

But you're demonizing all the men for having penises!!!!!! /s

That was excellent, thank you for posting. Not to mention cathartic in light of the men's rights brigades that attempt to trash anything that mentions the idea of toxic masculinity.

[–]jolly_mcfats 1ポイント2ポイント  (2子コメント)

Hi there- I hope you don't mind me popping in to ask this, but you seem like someone who might know.

You mention

Manhood is a seriously understudied but very important subject that is only recently getting a lot of attention.

I've read Connell and been wondering if anything like Masculinities has ever been written examining different femininities and studying intra-gender relations between women? Is there anything similar to the journal for men's studies that examines womanhood in a similar manner?

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

There are lots of journals that focus on women! Anything specific you are interested in? I can just give a couple of interesting reading suggestions if you want. It will also give you some journals that focus on these things. In general, the term you often see coming up is Barbara Welter's "the cult of true womanhood" as opposed to "toxic masculinity" but there are other tropes that are discussed too like jezebel. They aren't all journals specifically looking at womanhood but you'll find lots of articles within that are relevant for gender studies of both men and women.

  • Welter, Barbara. "The cult of true womanhood: 1820-1860." American Quarterly (1966): 151-174. <--- origins of the term

  • Roberts, Mary Louise. "True womanhood revisited." Journal of Women's History 14.1 (2002): 150-155. <--- Good discussion of the term

    • Buchanan, NiCole T., Isis H. Settles, and Krystle C. Woods. "Comparing sexual harassment subtypes among Black and White women by military rank: Double jeopardy, the jezebel, and the cult of true womanhood." Psychology of Women Quarterly 32.4 (2008): 347-361.
  • Emerson, Rana A. "“Where my girls at?” Negotiating black womanhood in music videos." Gender & Society 16.1 (2002): 115-135.

  • DuCille, Ann. "The occult of true black womanhood: Critical demeanor and black feminist studies." Signs (1994): 591-629.

  • Scheper‐Hughes, Nancy. "Culture, scarcity, and maternal thinking: Maternal detachment and infant survival in a Brazilian shantytown." Ethos 13.4 (1985): 291-317.

So those are just some random articles I liked. If there is a specific topic you want reading suggestions for just ask. And /u/queerbees or /u/Fishing-Bear could probably give you many more suggestions than I. But here are a few journals to check out. Note that in the states anything to do with women, womanhood, femininity, etc. gets lumped into "feminist" regardless of whether there is any political or social policy aspect to it. That can be confusing for the journal titles because some are more political leaning and some aren't at all.

Gender, Place & Culture A Journal of Feminist Geography http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/cgpc20/current

Signs: Journal of Women in Culture and Society http://signsjournal.org/

Journal of Gender Studies http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/cjgs20/current

Frontiers: A Journal of Women Studies https://muse.jhu.edu/journals/frontiers/

Differences: A Journal of Feminist Cultural Studies https://www.dukeupress.edu/differences/

European Journal of Womens Studies http://ejw.sagepub.com/

Feminist Africa http://agi.ac.za/journals

Feminist Review http://www.feminist-review.com/

[–]jolly_mcfats 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a lot to start with, thank you.

Anything specific you are interested in?

You may have already provided it- basically examinations of norms around which femininity is constituted, the intra-gender power relations that those reinforce, and I'd also be interested in extra-gender power relations that weren't limited to economic or political power (I suspect postmodernists will have done a lot of that).

Basically, I don't agree with everything connell and messerschmidt say about masculinities as they relate to femininities- but I think that there is a lot which is compelling in their examination of masculinities as they relate to other masculinities. I hadn't found anything which tried to construct an ontology of femininities and discuss the mechanisms through which their hierarchies were reinforced, and I found that strange.

[–]queerbeesWaggle Dance Performativity 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Connell, Robert William, and Raewyn Connell. Masculinities. Univ of California Press, 2005.

Connell, Robert W., and James W. Messerschmidt. "Hegemonic masculinity rethinking the concept." Gender & society 19.6 (2005): 829-859.

There is only one Connell who's authored these pieces. It's just Raewyn Connell, or more often R W Connell. I tend to favor the latter.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah I just pulled the bibliographic info from Google scholar to be honest. I was too lazy to go through my bibliographic program and find the entry. I didn't even notice the doubling. How odd? I fixed it though.

By the way so you know her preferences for bibliographic info? She alternated for a while. Does she prefer her older pieces bibliographic entries to go by RW, Raewyn, or to keep the name used for publication? I don't actually know.

[–]queerbeesWaggle Dance Performativity 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

haha, that's odd that google scholar doubled up the names. No harm done :P

I don't know what she prefers necessarily with her older stuff. From what I understand is that Connell prefered the "R. W." but I'd bet that not all publishers or journals were down, so some printed them wither Robert or Robert Williams. I guess my typical move is to just use the name printed on the text I'm specifically referencing, seeing how citations are meant as track backs to texts not necessarily track backs to authors (how I see it). But I don't know what Connell's preference is, from what I know, she's hasn't written a ton on her transition and her preferences thereof. Maybe she's like J. Halberstam, and she just lets it happen naturally!

[–]rickyharline 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

I would really appreciate the perspectives of others, especially as so many are highly knowledgeable in this thread.

Why is this white male culture and not middle class culture? To clarify, why is the tie to race stronger than the tie to class? I have been delighted to have grown up in a highly diverse place and have lived in several others since. In my personal experience, the tie to class seems much stronger than the tie to race.

Further, although the men are the ones acting out toxic masculinity, do the actors deserve more attention than the enforcers? The enforcers of toxic masculinity are everyone regardless of gender, race, or class. So if this is the masculinity that is nearly ubiquitously encouraged than this further makes makes the given descriptor seem inadequate.

Naming this phenomenon after those that predominately perform it seems both racially and sexually prejudiced to me. If we were to discuss high crime or homicide rates among blacks, for example, we would certainly ensure to focus on the enormous poverty and the causes of that, for example. If we were to talk about the criminals and ignore the factors that lead to them becoming criminals, that would create an implicit message that the causing factors don't matter or those that propagate them don't deserve blame.

In terms of academic knowledge I am certainly less knowledgeable than many in this discussion, and I fully recognize that I may very well be ignorant or misguided. I would very much enjoy and appreciate it if anyone would take the time to discuss this with me.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good question. So first, there are multiple ways of being middle class. In America, due to slavery there is a distinct divide between black and white middle class normative behaviors. Those divides have lessened over time as those legal and social barriers slowly dissolved/are dissolving. But from a sociological and anthropological perspective they are still relevant (there are also great studies on other ethnic/racial identities in America too.)

A good place to start might be the work of Hortense Powdermaker, who wrote After Freedom in 1939. She looked at white and black families in Mississippi and examined issues of class and caste (with race being like caste in Jim Crow America.) One among many interesting things she noted was that middle class black Americans on the one hand attempted to legitimize their social positioning by imitating white families and ways of behaving which, given they were only a couple generations out of slavery was very much an invented and new way of being. But on the other hand they were still legally and socially barred from full participation in larger society and as such they formed a culture of difference (meaning they were culturally positioned in a space where they were self identified as not lower class black and white communities positioned them as not white creating this set apart space for a unique culture to develop.) As an aside, it is worth noting that others have criticized her somewhat for ignoring the continuation of existing African and distinctly African American traditions as well as their agency in constructing new identities that are not necessarily related to or in response to whiteness. However, the idea of white middle class behaviors being the pathway to the most social mobility has been supported by more recent scholarship so while her analysis might be a bit flat it isn't entirely wrong.

Throughout Jim Crow middle class black communities were still legally separated and this meant they were of course culturally separated as well. But black Americans purposefully and quite openly adopt white cultural aspects in order to better position themselves. For example, check out the Jack and Jill societies. With the Civil Rights movement you see a public questioning of this, though - why should I have to disown my own culture in order to be successfully American? Right? You see shifts happening with many black middle class Americans adopting more overtly African symbols and names as well as embracing their bodies as beautiful. Today, there is still a huge tension within the black American community about whiteness as a path to legitimacy and the greatest opportunities for social mobility. This has some very obvious overt examples such as skin lightening creams and hair straightening. Many middle class black women have recently chosen to work with their hair's natural curls and body but can have difficulty being seen as "professional" compared to women who straighten their hair. Can natural hair be professional? is a big debate in the black American community. More subtly, normative behaviors for the most social mobility such as speech patterns, interaction protocols, dress codes, etc. follow white middle class rather than black middle class. Normative meaning the dominant cultural model for behaviors, dress, speech patterns, interaction protocols, gender roles, etc. for a given social group. So even if something isn't the most common it is still normative even if it isn't "normal" as an average - for example marriage being normative even if large numbers of people are divorced or unmarried.

So what about the gender aspect? Well we study this for women too. So it isn't just male middle class normative models that are studied but obviously men and women have different gender roles so we describe them somewhat separately. Similarly, it is relevant to say male masculinity because there are tons of good studies about masculinity as performed by queer communities and other contexts. But the US is a patriarchy and there are studies that suggest women need to adopt aspects of masculinity to succeed in the workplace. We know that the lean in model doesn't work because women aren't treated the same as men in the workplace, however. The Harvard Business School has done a number of studies on this issue if you're curious. But the general point is that white middle class male behaviors are the norm in some ways but women are expected to behave differently. On the one hand they have to adopt a hyper masculinity in the sense that they feel pressure to hide discussions of children, emotions, and feminine things like pink (this varies depending on profession of course). On the other hand, if they behave too much like men's normative models such as negotiating salary they can be penalized. So if we're looking at a community that until recently was primarily men and still male dominated in upper management then examining employee and boss norms as they relate to gender (among many other labels) is important for these discussions. But just because we identify that doesn't mean it is a critique. Though in the larger sense it does help I think to recognize studies like the one above and work towards more equitable treatment in workplaces and other contexts. That doesn't make males bad. It just highlights how society in general (including women!!) have implicit bias and there may be inequalities that get reproduced sometimes entirely unintentionally.

[–]KingOfSockPuppetsQueen indoctrinator 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Why is this white male culture and not middle class culture? To clarify, why is the tie to race stronger than the tie to class? I have been delighted to have grown up in a highly diverse place and have lived in several others since. In my personal experience, the tie to class seems much stronger than the tie to race.

The short version is that because these are not mutually exclusive concepts. Race and class often come together to generate unique situations, and trying to cleave race out of the equation is rarely conducive to strong analysis. And at least in my experience, folks on reddit taking that path aren't actually centering their arguments around class, it's a disposable shield to protect whiteness. I don't want to be rude here but did you read the OP? There's several paragraphs in the OP that explain why it's important to specifically analyze white masculinity, and a large part of this is because it is specifically middle class white males set the tempo for everyone else who isn't fabulously wealthy. The OP went through this at great length.

Further, although the men are the ones acting out toxic masculinity, do the actors deserve more attention than the enforcers? The enforcers of toxic masculinity are everyone regardless of gender, race, or class. So if this is the masculinity that is nearly ubiquitously encouraged than this further makes makes the given descriptor seem inadequate.

I'm not really sure what your argument is here, to be honest. It is a masculinity patterned off of the lives and behaviors of white (middle class) men. If the enforcers being 'everyone' makes 'white masculinity' a meaningless or inadequate term, then so should class. After all, everyone contributes to enforcing class divisions, right?

Naming this phenomenon after those that predominately perform it seems both racially and sexually prejudiced to me. If we were to discuss high crime or homicide rates among blacks, for example, we would certainly ensure to focus on the enormous poverty and the causes of that, for example. If we were to talk about the criminals and ignore the factors that lead to them becoming criminals, that would create an implicit message that the causing factors don't matter or those that propagate them don't deserve blame.

Again, not sure what your argument is. The existence of social forces creating unique dynamics doesn't intrinsically make the name inadequate. Given that your opening sentence is an indict of the naming schema (as is the rest of your post), it makes your last point rather confusing. There are social forces that cause white masculinity, yes, that doesn't make the name bad or create an 'implicit message that the causing factors don't matter.' When researchers are examining black masculinity, they don't erase the historical, cultural, or economic factors that come together to create that. This argument might be true if researchers just treated white masculinity as an inalienable fact of white male life. But I'm willing to bet that very few do.

[–]rickyharline 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought I understood the original post well, but perhaps I haven't. I'll read it more carefully tomorrow (it's late here), and hopefully I will be able to either clarify or recognize the error in my thinking. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me.

[–]Leinadro -1ポイント0ポイント  (10子コメント)

To me its not statements or studies that are the problem. The problem is how they are applied or used.

From what I see when the concept of toxic masculinity comes up its nearly always presented as being harmful to women first and foremost and then as a footnote there will be a "oh yeah it hurts men too".

I thought "I suppose I'll promarily talk about how these things affect men. Surely that's a worthwhile topic."

I pretty much found out the hard way that that is not the case.

It seems that despite the occasional nod to how these things harm men actually focusing on that isn't a desireable topic.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 7ポイント8ポイント  (4子コメント)

I imagine it depends on the context of the discussion. If you jump into a conversation about feminism or women's issues you will find the subjects geared towards that topic. In the section I taught we had numerous discussions about men and how it impacted them directly. We also watched one of a number of documentaries about the subject. And read lots of literature about it. Manhood especially in the west is understudied and unfortunately tends to be cishet normative when it is written about. But every year more and more is slowly coming out. We can give recommendations if you want

Gender is an interrelated subject and we often think about gender categories in comparative ways. At some point in any discussion you need to locate understandings of one gender in the context of culture and relationships with and to other gender categories. So a good piece about one gender should at least bring up the subject as it relates to other genders. But that doesn't make it unfocused or biased

[–]Leinadro 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

"I imagine it depends on the context of the discussion. If you jump into a conversation about feminism or women's issues you will find the subjects geared towards that topic."

And if it were only that I could let it go. But maybe I've just had misfortune in who I dealt with when talking about it.

"In the section I taught we had numerous discussions about men and how it impacted them directly."

I'm glad you are. It often feels like in talking about toxic masculinity men are subjects to be fixed for the sake of others rather than people who need to be helped.

And apparently my experiences are not very well liked considering the downvoting of my initial comment. Maybe they figure if they downvote it and try to alienate enough ("where did you get that from" "well I have never experienced that!!!") I'll just go away who knows.

So what reading would you recommend?

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sorry I had a family weekend so no Reddit for me! Well aside from a couple moderating things for other subs.

Anyway, here are a few books I'd suggest if you're interesting in reading about manhood and masculinity:

  • Gilmore, David D. Manhood in the making: Cultural concepts of masculinity. Yale University Press, 1990. <--- great starting point for trying to examine manhood cross culturally. It isn't perfect but cross-cultural studies are hard to do well and I think it makes some good points. The "toxic" term isn't used I don't think but you'd see that where he talks about the ways that certain conditions push men into more extremes. And where men cannot fulfill some of these terms he lays out as ubiquitous manhood aspects and the ways that they react. (Side note but this has been suggested as part of the reason we see similar suicide by mass killings in the US and China despite very different cultural norms and media exposures.)

  • Connell, RW Masculinities. Univ of California Press, 2005.

  • Gutmann, Matthew C. "Trafficking in men: The anthropology of masculinity." Annual Review of Anthropology (1997): 385-409. <--- this is a review article, which if you haven't ever read one is just a summary with analysis of the best (according to the author) pieces out there about a subject. So it is a great starting place for getting a sense of how a field looks at a subject even if it is a little old. Plus I found it free to read online for ya!

  • Schrock, Douglas, and Michael Schwalbe. "Men, masculinity, and manhood acts." Annual review of sociology 35 (2009): 277-295. <--- and here is a corresponding review article from the sociology perspective. Also found a version you can read!

  • Bourgois, Philippe. In search of respect: Selling crack in El Barrio. Cambridge University Press, 2003. <--- awesome book - I cannot recommend it enough because it does such a great job exploring a very difficult community and ideas about race and gender in a sensitive but honest way. Bourgois has some other wonderful pieces too. But it is very engaging and interesting.

There is a ton written on the subject so hard to narrow it down but this gets you started. Anthropologists often look at this cross-culturally or just localized in non-Western contexts. For example a friend looked at masculinity in relation to Afghanistan and violence. But theories we develop are often utilized by people working stateside.

[–]vamoose1 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

What documentary did you watch? Sounds interesting.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Tough Guise which was a little dated but still relevant. The Mask You Live In is a more recent variation on the same theme. There is another decent one too but I'm drawing a blank. If I remember it I'll comment!

[–]thatoneguy54 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

From what I see when the concept of toxic masculinity comes up its nearly always presented as being harmful to women first and foremost and then as a footnote there will be a "oh yeah it hurts men too".

Where are you seeing this? I have never encountered that and have pretty much only seen discussions on toxic masculinity focus on its harm to men.

[–]Leinadro 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Mainly feminist websites but sometimes even on sites that don't lean that way.

That's not to say all feminist sites do this or that all discussions of toxic masculinity are like that mind you.

[–]thatoneguy54 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do you have any examples? I understand and agree that toxic masculinity can harm women as well, I'm just interested to see how it's explained in an article.

[–]Leinadro 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't have a full article but something that comes to mind is something once said by Robert Jensen:

"TOXIC MASCULINITY HURTS MEN, BUT THERE’S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WOMEN DEALING WITH THE CONSTANT THREAT OF BEING RAPED, BEATEN, AND KILLED BY THE MEN IN THEIR LIVES, AND MEN NOT BEING ABLE TO CRY."

Now again I'm not saying toxic masculinity doesn't affect women. What I am saying is that reducing its affects on men by lopsided comparisons like that may not incite guys to join in the conversation. Who knows maybe if some of those men were able to cry that constant fear would no longer be a problem.

[–]Gruzman -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Remember, it's only "toxic" in the context of people who consider that it needs to be changed. It's arbitrary to a feminist worldview that sees itself as both expert and entitled authority of what new, better gender roles should be.

[–]LemonLenin 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

As a white male who currently has no problem with my masculinity. What should I do?

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (2子コメント)

But that's the point, isn't it? If you are a white male who can properly perform the masculinity normative of your community then your masculinity is unmarked. In other words, you're normal. It doesn't impact you at all. If you moved to Japan you might find the way you perform masculinity to suddenly be called into question and even detrimental to certain social situations. Just as someone from Japan moving to where you live might have some culture shock regarding that (as well as lots of other aspects obviously!)

It is also important to recognize context and the discussions of how masculinity (and other ways of performing identity and belonging) shift regionally and contextually. For example, my white male in-laws who live in rural Alabama perform lower-class white male American masculinity just fine. They fit in very well in the construction crews they work within and social circles. But their mannerisms, dress choices, speech patterns, and workplace behaviors would not be acceptable in an office job in Boston. They would be considered unprofessional. Code switching would be difficult for them because they'd need to change so much about who they are and how they behave. It isn't something they've probably thought much about, but I can see how it impacts their upward mobility in a negative way. They are happy as is, though, so they feel no impetuous to change.

You don't have to do anything. It is more of an awareness that you have privilege in that sense. You don't have to code switch or adjust that aspect of yourself in order to pass unremarked upon. If you want to be sensitive to other people and their conditions it simply helps to recognize that. And to recognize that other people might not have grown up with that experience and enculturation process. So for them it is difficult to figure out.

[–]LemonLenin 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I see your point. I really do and I think we agree too.

To me - now I say this being a white male - I see these codes as being fundamental to a social circle and any other social construct/network. The normative behavior of a group is what binds it together and without such it would be impossible to maintain larger social groups.

But I don't think you disagree or even call to erase them - You're just calling for these codes to be more inclusive(and the white masculine one in particular)?

If so, then we agree I think.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, exactly. As an anthropologist I recognize all groups have culture and that there can be beauty and value in all cultures. I don't want to eradicate an entire cultural group or sub-group. And I think it is equally problematic if someone suggests replacing one hegemonic system with another. But I also recognize there can be serious problems when cultural barriers between groups are hardened and patrolled. And problems if those identifications become necessary for access to certain goods, services, resources, and economic positions. I hope that those barriers can become more porous and that we can get to a point where they are more inclusive and accepting of difference for access to those things.

That goes for a host of things in the US. Hegemonic analysis is difficult sometimes because it is kind of flat. We're looking at systems of power but often with only one or two factors at a time. Looking at everything all at once is just really hard to do! So you see this analysis of how race or gender or class impacts all of this but of course not only do they work together (intersectionality!) but there are also other issues. Region, religion, educational background, age, etc. all impact your positioning in society at large and during your personal individual experience as you live in the world (i.e. the constantly shifting contexts you are engaging within.) Most of the time class, gender, and race/ethnicity seem to be the big important labels for our society but obviously in certain contexts other ones are. But that's why you see those three pop up all the time.

[–]bunker_man 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You shouldn't really use the word stoic to refer to the masculine ideal. There's nothing stoic about it, other than that culture tells you to pretend it is stoic. Its heavily passion driven, just not in the ways culture emphasizes as being emotionally based. The fact that being needlessly aggressive, often in selfish ways is considered tied to being assertive and a positive masculine ideal, and anger is often glorified makes it honestly further from a stoic ideal than expressing sadness or feelings would be. Even if you define stoic as simply as "non emotionally driven."

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's nothing stoic about it, other than that culture tells you to pretend it is stoic.

But that's the point. These are normative ideals not necessarily the actual norm. It is also a shifting and often contradictory set of ideals. You should be stoic and reserved but passionate and aggressive. You should be a dedicated father and husband but you should also be out chasing conquests and working late. You should be the provider and make lots of money but you should chase your dreams (even if they don't make money) and have a partner who is an equal. And so on. No one man can equally fulfill it all, which can create all kinds of tension, anger, frustration, and resistance.

[–]NUMBERS2357 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

First, let's take masculinity. This does not mean men it means cultural concepts of manhood i.e. what it means to be a good or appropriate or respected man.

I thought masculinity means things traditionally associated with men, regardless of "good" or "appropriate". IE, aggression and violence are considered "masculine", but not good, by most people.

Also WRT "toxic masculinity", you talk about how it's contradictory...but isn't basically any set of standards for how people ought to act similarly contradictory? You could say the same for women. You could say the same for anything - do X, but not too much X. And if you do X there are people who will make fun of you and say you're doing it wrong, same as if you don't do X. Like, say, college students and studying - people who study all the time, and who don't study at all, get made fun of and criticized, same way both committed husbands and womanizers do.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right. When I say good I should probably pick a different modifier. Good as in appropriate, complete, whole. But not necessarily positive. There are negative personality and ability associations with gender roles that are expected for a man. Take violence and aggression, which you brought up. Every man is expected to have that capability but also to have the restraint to know when to use it. A man who cannot shoot the enemy during combat or beat up the guy mugging him becomes diminished as a man (note I'm speaking purely in large cultural patterns not suggesting that this is a positive thing or something we should encourage.) But that aggression should be held in check at times when it isn't appropriate (like in line at the bank). However, the idea that a man could explode into anger fits into the larger idea of what manhood means and what a complete whole picture of a man includes (good and bad.) This is something Gilmore talks about.

I bring up the tensions because I think they are important for understanding masculinity in a more complex and nuanced way. Toxic masculinity pushes men towards ideals that can negatively impact their own mental health, physical health, and their relationships around them. Shaming men who cry, talk about their feelings, can't beat up the mugger, etc. is an example. Being culturally unable to express yourself can be incredibly difficult (for a fascinating look at this check out Veiled Sentiments: Honor and Poetry in a Bedouin Society which explores how Bedouin men and women aren't supposed to talk about weaknesses like love or fear but even they find ways to do this through poetry.)

The more pressure there is in society to fulfill ideals of a gender role (or any role) the more strict those boundaries become of what is appropriate and not appropriate. I think looking at masculinities instead of just masculinity reveals that these boundaries are hardening but in somewhat contradictory ways that add to the burden.

All social roles do have contradictory ideals. You're absolutely right. But the question is what are the social repercussions of failing to meet those ideals? Gilmore argues that masculinity is constantly in a state of being proven. Womanhood - even if you are a culturally "bad" woman - is the default. But manhood is something that must be continuously proven and recreated. Failing to meet ideals means failure to competently prove and sustain manhood. The more heightened those boundaries and the more heightened the value given to maintenance of that manhood the bigger the repercussions. So the more devastating internally and culturally failures become. If you can never meet all of them you will always feel incomplete or imperfect in that respect. The magnitude of that depends on social repercussions and how important you think those ideals are.

That of course isn't the only lens with which to examine masculinity. And there are corresponding ideas about femininity too. No one theory is perfect. But it is an interesting framework for looking at certain issues.

[–]Gruzman -4ポイント-3ポイント  (8子コメント)

What's it like to choose a gender that you dislike for political reasons and then spend time formulating ways in which their "cultural" expression is intrinsically, morally wrong in hopes of building a better future where such expressions are suppressed for the good of people who think like you do? What specific attitude of entitlement do you need to hold in order to view the choices of others through this lens?

Additionally, where can I go to learn to disguise this base desire to do cultural combat as something intellectual and refined, requiring a deep intellect to understand?

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (7子コメント)

What about the post specifically do you dislike? Do you disagree with my summary of the literature on the topics, which was intended to get everyone on the same page so we can have a discussion of the topics merits and drawbacks? Or do you think the subject itself is flawed and would like to present an alternate theoretical lens?

[–]Gruzman -3ポイント-2ポイント  (6子コメント)

Do you disagree with my summary of the literature on the topics

Calling this "literature" is a bit of a stretch, no? I mean, there's some links to other writers in this original post, but the post itself is just dressed up gender/culture war. It's basically just an agreement to try and pinpoint the male social role (and all of its contradictions!) and indict it, with the hopes of changing its "problematic" nature.

This invariably translates into the only serious outlet that such planning can take in the short term: media proliferation. Some poor stereotype of a 'bro' will get a comedic pounding on a sassy website or maybe a short-lived form of protest outside his fraternity house.

Ultimately, the things being proposed here are basically just urges to limit the freedoms enjoyed by the typical college-aged, middle class white male, out of a sense of looking out for their own good (the greater good!) Things perhaps worth acknowledging but best kept to one's self. And of course very little (well, nothing) is mentioned of the growing tendency to see this exact behavior produced in women of the same age and status, or of the need to curb it for their own good (let's not police the female sexuality, which has been repressed for centuries.)

Thus this write-up reads as essentially a blueprint for how you'd like to justify changing the role of men in society, something which is largely an affront to their own agency and self respect, the consequences of which are downplayed or ignored to allow for literary jargon to rule the discussion. What I'm always struck by is how anyone, myself included, could deign to rule over the total development of society, of people other than myself, in such a way as is described in this kind of post. To actually try and consolidate this information in such a way as to act upon it. It's great and terrifying at the same time.

Or do you think the subject itself is flawed and would like to present an alternate theoretical lens?

I do appreciate the invitation to share my own opinion, however. That's very cordial of you!

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (5子コメント)

Calling this "literature" is a bit of a stretch, no?

It is a literature review. In academia, "the literature" on a topic means the peer reviewed studies about a subject along with respected books (usually published in academic presses.) In other words, the writings of experts on the topic. Almost every academic journal article has a section for the lit review - sometimes it is even has a lit review subtitle though sometimes it is wrapped into the introduction. Depends on the field.

This is a lit review of the main pieces in sociology and related fields regarding white male masculinity as it relates to many of the debates going on within Reddit right now. By its nature, a lit review must leave out some discussions and highlight others. If you think I've mischaracterized the literature I reference and summarize please explain. I'd be happy to debate it.

All I can get from your comment is that you dislike any field that attempts to summarize patterns of human behavior and attitudes. Which pretty much rules out psychology, sociology, anthropology (including more biological and evolutionarily focused lenses), communication studies, public health, economics, and well about half of the departments at a university. Summarizing human behaviors, attitudes, perspectives, and worldviews is certainly complex but I am confused as to why it is terrifying. I don't make any suggestions for changes or policy implementations. It is just descriptive. Why is describing a culture's normative attitudes and the tensions it can create so scary?

[–]Gruzman -4ポイント-3ポイント  (4子コメント)

It is just descriptive. Why is describing a culture's normative attitudes and the tensions it can create so scary?

Well, not just descriptive. It's a specific description which, if one takes the logic seriously, presents a specific view of both the "problems" and, by implication, the range of "solutions" concerning its objects. You're not, nor is any academic field, just describing anything. You're helping set an agenda. It's "terrifying" because these are not relatively benign discoveries in physics or public health. This is the kind of setting that gives us the "theoretical" roots of future pop-culture wars, which are essentially instances of reaching out into society and chastising the expressions of the non-academic, for better or worse. And it can all be traced back to these kinds of summaries in 'the literature.'

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 6ポイント7ポイント  (3子コメント)

What specifically though concerns you? Can you point to something I summarized here or in other literature about the topic? What is so controversial about a solution which, if you follow the logic, is just we should be more inclusive?

[–]Gruzman -2ポイント-1ポイント  (2子コメント)

We've gone over my disagreements with this summary from the start.

What is so controversial about a solution which, if you follow the logic, is just we should be more inclusive?

It's controversial because it's hardly what ends up happening, in practice. And because "being more inclusive" isn't really a universal impetus in people, and therefore it invariably requires prodding of some sort on the part of some interested party. And such conflict usually involves electing to limit the freedom of some for the supposed benefit of others, by some means, rarely uncontroversial.

So, no, nothing here is as inconspicuous nor as moderate as you're now claiming it is. It's just polemic waiting to be deployed.

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde[S] 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

But you haven't actually said anything specific at all. It has all been very general. Im just really confused as to what specifically concerns you. The middle class part? The difficulty of non middle class minorities adapting to certain unspoken but normative ideals? The cultural differences between racial and ethnic groups in America?

Edit to fix an auto correct error

[–]tetsugakusei 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Im just really confused as to what specifically concerns you.

It's amusing the way she is concern trolling you. You have expressed precisely my thoughts. I tried, earlier, to show this by making a parallel satire post about female toxicity. Despite their mockery of how old my complaint of female hysteria was, they couldn't see the point that there is necessarily an agenda hidden behind the neutral veneer of academese that firedrops has carefully crafted. It deeply appeals to her disciples on this thread as it allows them the follow-up that my god, something must be done.

To be brutal, it is not hard to understand what is going on here. Firedrops was brought up in the most backward state in America (Louisiana), and one half of her family she has described as 'very conservative'. Her move to a liberal university must be an extraordinary liberation for her, and now she can engage the power of her university-speak to retrieve the ashes of her childhood. To somebody with a very liberal childhood, it is painfully obvious that firedrops wrote this comment from the fainting couch.