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Straw Poll - Was Underscore_Blues' ban justified? (strawpoll.me)

MichealKenny が 投稿

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[–]Le071017 22ポイント23ポイント  (1子コメント)

I need Ja rule to help me make sense of all this

[–]TahaN6498Reptor is Love! Reptor is Life! 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

WHERE IS JA!?!?

[–]Camton 14ポイント15ポイント  (5子コメント)

Can there be an option for not giving a fuck?

[–]MichealKenny[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

In reply to Nugrun:

About the don't care option, I was going to add it but them I just said, "if they don't care they won't pay attention to this anyway".

[–]Camton 4ポイント5ポイント  (2子コメント)

Fair enough, I just feel like people take this place too seriously sometimes.

[–]VERBATIIM 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

Way to serious.

[–]MichealKenny[S] -3ポイント-2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I suppose I take it seriously as I have been critical of the hosts in the past, and I suppose I see myself as next on the chopping block even though, like Underscore, I think of myself as a fan and never miss an episode.

[–]pka4lifeoh i'll beat the shit out 5 year old 3ポイント4ポイント  (5子コメント)

Idk what happened could someone fill me in

[–]MichealKenny[S] 5ポイント6ポイント  (4子コメント)

I will prefix this by saying that I think he should be unbanned so you know from the get go that I am obviously biased.

Underscore is a very active community member.

Because he is very active, he posts a lot of constructive criticism, but in the broad scope of things that only makes up maybe 20% of his posts.

Woody quietly bans him because he doesn't like how he posts so many negative posts.

People like me see it as censorship and that the downvote button is plenty sufficient for situations like this, other people think he is a dick and don't mind that he is banned.

[–]16Jack 3ポイント4ポイント  (1子コメント)

I lot of the criticism isn't constructive though... Most of what he posts is hate that doesn't really help

[–]alt_account275/u/Underscore_Blues 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I keep seeing this that I gave "hate". If someone could give an example, then I might be able to agree with you. But from my own recollection of recently going through my own history of the last 6 months, there's nothing that is actually hate.

One thing is criticism, another thing is constructive criticism, and another thing is hate. Too many people are blurring the lines between these 3 things.

And let's not pretend all my posts are hate or criticism. I helped lots of people out with their PKA Historian questions and even posted a long list of GOT talks on the show recently for episodes not on the pka.com website.

[–]pka4lifeoh i'll beat the shit out 5 year old 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks a lot

[–]CrossideAnother guy named Kyle. 10ポイント11ポイント  (2子コメント)

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Just looking at his comment history and how much negativity he brought to /r/PKA is just unneeded. I love lurking the subreddit and seeing all the people that love the same thing I do.

[–]MichealKenny[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

But you don't seem to understand the scale at which he posts, the criticism only makes up like 20% of his posts, the rest is really great contributions.

[–]CrossideAnother guy named Kyle. -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is your opinion.

[–]SwissBlissPKA Connoisseur 4ポイント5ポイント  (12子コメント)

I think it's justified. If you don't like Chiz, just state why and defend your arguments, but don't be rude or hate. As cool as Kyle is, I think he can be a bit of a dick sometimes, but I'm not gonna rally people to agree with me.

[–]alt_account275/u/Underscore_Blues 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

It would be great if they could source that Chiz hate thing.

I promise you they made it up assuming I hate Chiz. I don't. At that point in the conversation they couldn't have been that far into my history anyway, maybe the last week, and there's nothing there.

Quick edit: I think this is the thread the hosts were on about (from this comment string). And that was nothing against Chiz. /u/Kraisen was being downvoted at the time even though he was giving constructive criticism to Chiz and I was sympathetic towards the guy (Chiz even spoke about that comment string on the show). And Chiz was quickly going down a name calling route "go get your haircut from your mother." It was not hate crime at all by me, they were just looking for things to blast me about.

The linked thread you've already received is my true opinion. And that was said before Chiz came back to the sub and started being more pleasant within the last month or so.

[–]SwissBlissPKA Connoisseur 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

My initial comment was based on what they said on the show. I've learned over time that the hosts will defend their position no matter what, and support each other whether they're right or wrong. When Woody linked Kyle to your account on the show, Kyle was never gonna say "nah I think you're exaggerating Woody", instead it's more of a "yes Woody whatever you say, fuck those stupid people who say otherwise". I miss having someone like Lefty or Wings who don't agree with them no matter what. They aren't bad people, that's not what I mean, but I wish they'd admit when they're wrong. They have the final say on the show, so in the end they can't be wrong.

I haven't checked all your history of comments, but from what I was linked and what you said, I'm more on your side now.

[–]MichealKenny[S] 3ポイント4ポイント  (9子コメント)

That's ok, you're entitled to your opinion, but I just want to point out that this was the Chiz hate from Underscore Woody was referring to here: https://www.reddit.com/r/PKA/comments/33dnk6/z/cqk37ks

You can make up your own mind on whether it was hate or not.

[–]SwissBlissPKA Connoisseur 2ポイント3ポイント  (2子コメント)

Are you sure that this is the one? This was more than a month ago. If this is it, then no it's not hate and not ban worthy at all.

[–]MichealKenny[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well that is the only one I see that could even remotely be construed as hate, so unless I missed some, then yeah that's the one.

[–]Zorro-man 3ポイント4ポイント  (2子コメント)

Did he say anything else at all? Because the way I read that it sounded completely like an opinion that he voiced respectfully and backed up

[–]10058704 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly this. From this comment alone he seems very constructive and accurate.

We have all seen much worse said about Chiz, not that there was any hate there anyway.

[–]MichealKenny[S] -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not that i'm aware of but I could be wrong of course.

[–]Silverhand7Racially Tolerant Lefty 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think this needs to be shown much more prominently. This completely changes my opinion on the situation. I initially thought the ban was justified because Woody said he was posting hateful things about Chiz. That's not out of the question for this subreddit, and whether you like the guy or not it's kind of shitty behavior. This definitely isn't hate though, or even close to it. I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that Woody lied about why he banned the guy and it was more personal bias.

[–]MichealKenny[S] -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah I agree, maybe the poll is so split because people don't like people being mean to Chiz(I don't either), but yeah Woody and Kyle exaggerated it on the podcast.

[–]Silverhand7Racially Tolerant Lefty 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I personally voted on the poll that the ban was justified just based on what I had heard on the podcast, but afterwards I read quite a bit more about it on the subreddit today and I've completely changed my mind, particularly after seeing his post history.

[–]ThunderStunLong live the chiznard army! 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

The thing is this is supposed to be a place where the hosts interact with their fans. Fans are supposed to support them, not tear them down, and people that aren't fans of the show do not belong here.

[–]TheUglyPotatoKyle is love, Kyle is life <3 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just so there is no misunderstanding, Underscore_Blues actually contributed to this subreddit, he posted helpful things as well

[–]Ivan-Trolsky 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is the internet. The internet is not a democracy. You have no rights and your opinion rarely matters.

[–]Chartoise 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

What about a strawpoll to find out how many people are in favor for Woody being a mod?

[–]Stickyballs96 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I stand for freedom of speech so I vote No.

[–]KraisenMr. Sark for PKA! 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just don't get why he was banned of all people. There are plenty of people on this subreddit that are worse than him.

I've even got my moments where I'm more critical than he ever was.

[–]fathertimexxWoody groped me when i was younger. 1ポイント2ポイント  (8子コメント)

I keep seeing that you say "You're entitled to your own opinion." Which is 100% right BUT that doesn't mean you are free from punishment.

Example: you can walk up to a guy and say "i dont like your skin color and you all should of stayed slaves." Thats a opinion but that opinion is going to come with a ass kicking of a punishment. It would be justified.

He should of been banned and im glad he was. Because you kids need to know you got to pay for what you do.

[–]MichealKenny[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

And on Reddit saying something that people disagree with gets you downvoted, it shouldn't go any further than that, hell, it shouldn't even get you downvoted, but we don't live in a utopia.

[–]fathertimexxWoody groped me when i was younger. 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

Then why have mods? If downvoting works so well then we dont need them.

[–]MichealKenny[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because the place would be overrun with spammers if we didn't have mods.

[–]Hai_Gunga 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't even know if that's true, I mean, in an active subreddit at least. The League of Legends subreddit has been moderator free for a week and good content filters up, bad/unrelated content is filtered out. Some moderation is needed, sure, but really I don't think the subreddit would ever get that bad. My main gripe is having a content producer being a mod in a subreddit that directly relates to his content. The content creator will always be bias and do things that don't really need to be done. Going back to the LoL subreddit. It's for that reason that no Riot employees are moderators and that there was a shit storm when people thought there was some kind of collusion between riot and the mods of the subreddit.

[–]Zorro-man 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm not 100% on what the guy that got banned said, but I think it wasn't nearly as bad as being blatantly racist. It's one thing to face repercussions for something like that, but I feel like banning people just because they criticize the hosts isn't really justifiable.

[–]fathertimexxWoody groped me when i was younger. 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

No it wasnt as bad as being racist that was a example that everyone can agree on. But i didnt read what he was saying as criticism. I read it as being an ass and that is bannable.

[–]Zorro-man 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

What exactly did he say? The only thing I've seen in a link OP posted in this thread where he was being pretty respectful and just voicing an opinion. Does anyone have a link to the asshole things he said?

[–]ItzUSA 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Alright guys it's woody and the moderators decision. By us making post after post about this isn't going to change their mind. Let's be honest are we mad about the decision or we just a decision to get mad over? I think what ever the host picked was probably for the best. Let's not hate too much on the host. If someone was making fun of us, we would probably leave that situation so let's not have the host leave us.

Let the down votes rain

[–]snomie 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep - I'm fine with it. A lot of the things said to him that made him angry/blow up were no worse than what he said about the hosts/pka/patreon in the past (look at his comment history during that period where the subreddit was in that anti-pka phase for 1-2 months).

When he pops up in every thread complaining about some minor PKA problem he'll call it 'constructive criticism', yet when he screwed up, posted false information and people call him out on it, it somehow becomes 'unfairly targeting him'. If you're going to dish it out than at least be able to take the same back without playing the victim.

[–]MichealKenny[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (8子コメント)

I think this is a good way to get a feel for the communities opinion as I have seen a few people commenting about a vocal minority, so feel free to cast a vote in total anonymity.

[–]Syppii 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

Dude I thought it was justified, I do not get why some many people think he should be allowed to to be negative.

[–]MichealKenny[S] 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but in my opinion, Reddit has a voting system so I don't think bans are as necessary as they are on other forums with no voting system.

[–]Equinox831 0ポイント1ポイント  (3子コメント)

The fact that people think he shouldn't be allowed to be negative is ridiculous. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and that also includes some negativity, so someone being banned for posting some criticism is just stupid.

Call me crazy, but I don't think people deserve to be banned after not breaking any rules. Sure, there's a "no hating" rule, but what does that even entail? That's way too broad of a rule and it's no secret that some of the hosts don't take criticism very well.

The bottom line is the hosts shouldn't be allowed to moderate as this is a third party forum for discussion and all non-malicious opinions should be allowed.

This shit is going to look like /r/pyongyang in a minute..

[–]Syppii 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

You know what I agree with you kinda. I do not agree with some of his posts but if you look into it further he has exams so I understand his stress. So I can understand he just wants to let off some steam.

However, it does not give him a right to be generally negative. I am in similar situation with exams in the UK but do you see me being like that. Being a podcaster/youtube is hard, put yourself out there to be funny. I have a sneaky suspicion about when the host say they have a "hard skin" that it is BS, how can you have a tuff skin with hundreds of people being negative. Moreover, they may have seen this guys as a microcosm of the hate; which is predominant on the sub-reddit.

All in all, no he should be banned at the moment. At one point the hosts relation of this sub-reddit was getting better but now its going to shit.

My Final Verdict: I think he should be shadow banned for a couple of weeks then unbanned. If he is rude again it should be permanent.

So if you think its stupid, fair enough -- have a good day.

[–]Cloud9rc 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm going to be honest, I've seen his name in many posts but I haven't looked through his posting history to see if he truly deserved the ban.

While I'm in the position that it is okay to be critical of the show (meaning a post written with the intent to improve a certain aspect or point out a certain problem/flaw rather than to just flame), I do agree that "negative" posts that are poorly made or use incorrect facts deserve to not be punished, but moderated. I think a permanent shadow ban was the wrong course of action, and instead a 3 strike policy would be better. First strike and you get a warning, second strike and you get a temporary ban, third strike and you get permanently banned.

Sure, it might "feel" better to just instantly perma ban someone, but I'm more in the mindset of trying to rectify their behaviour rather than to seek "vengeance" based actions. This also prevents "grey-area" harsh banning that would stir up shit and drama.

[–]VERBATIIM 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is it criticism if it's just plain wrong though?

[–]flawless_mouse 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Definitely. Woody posted recently that what he would interpret as a friendly dig from a close IRL friend, he would interpret as negativity from here. Same goes for unending and mob "criticism". It's not seen as an attempt to improve the show because it's impersonal. Actually, unending criticism from anyone would be interpreted negatively.

And I don't think the community (ie. voting) should take precedence over what the hosts want in regards to what content is allowed in this subreddit.

[–]GreenspheresWe got to put a cap on these fat bitches -2ポイント-1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I feel like people like that should be allowed to say what they want and express their opinions. Muting the negative people is not always the best way to fix the problem. Free speech is a right everyone has to voice there opinions wherever. However he should not be attacking anyone on PKA or anyone on the sub, that is wrong. At the end of the day people can down vote to make sure his voice is never heard.

[–]Kylesbottombitch 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not what free speech is though. This is a privately owned website that allows people to create forums with their own rules. 1) you must abide by reddit's few rules 2) you must abide by a sub's rules. They can be as authoritarian as they wish. The first amendment protects you from thr government intervening if you say whatever, so long as you don't infringe on others' rights. But other people can choose to sling shit back/ostracize you/ban you from a sub if they don't like what you have to say, regardless of whether or not it's reasonable. Free speech doesn't apply here.

[–]Chbakesale45Hypothetical situation -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

I do not think it would be justified if he didn't post as much as what he did. If its once a week, then maybe, but if it was as much as what the hosts say than its kind of ridiculous.

[–]alt_account275/u/Underscore_Blues 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

There was a ~5-day period where I posted way more than the usual user, and on the 4th day I was banned. I only made comments on the 5th day to test if I was right in thinking I was banned, since I comment in other subs. The week before last I made 2 comments the entire week on this subreddit.

The actual stats:

  • The week that was "3 weeks ago" I made 2 comments the entire week

  • The week that was "4 weeks ago" I made 12 comments the entire week.

Only being more active than usual for less than 2 weeks. And only superactive for ~4 days before the banning.

[–]DoomBread 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you were to someone get this survey to every PKA listener I think it would be heavily in favour of 'Yes'.

[–]MichealKenny[S] 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with you, but since it relates to this subreddit, only the opinions of the people on this subreddit matter.