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META[Meta]Mods addressing community concerns seriously (self.KotakuInAction)

Nonsensei が 投稿

I don't post very often, but here are some thoughts on the new moderation policy and its response by the mods/community.

Not going to name names, but I've seen a lot of mods in KiA write off community concerns with a patronizing tone. This does two things. First, it makes people resent you, even if you have legitimate concerns. By being patronizing instead of addressing the points straight on, people won't listen to you, even if what you're saying is completely valid. Second, it actually limits your ability to self-reflect. By adopting a patronizing tone, you're telling yourself the person you're talking to isn't worth hearing. This means if you ARE in the wrong, you won't be able to see it yourself.

What we need is a kind of AMA where the mods field the questions posed by the community asking why SJW stuff is getting curtailed. In this, mods should be expected to give complete answers instead of the patronizing comments they've been putting in the sticky. We should also debate the merits of such a policy and maybe even put it to a vote (to supplant the three other votes we've had on this topic).

If the mods refuse to engage the community, then the community should think about how this reflects on the mods' character.

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[–]videogameboss 55ポイント56ポイント  (11子コメント)

a major cause of dissatisfaction towards the gaming press before gamergate was polygon's review of gone home, which received a positive score purely for ideological (*edit: and personal) reasons. although at its core, gamergate is more a struggle for ethics instead of against SJWs, gamergate has to understand who is opposing them if they want to achieve their goals. to censor such integral information is to throw sand in the eyes of gamergate. "It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."

[–]RevRound 39ポイント40ポイント  (2子コメント)

Along with Polygons reviews of Witcher 3, Bayonetta 2, Tropico 5, and Dragons Crown all got points docked and paragraphs spent on SJW non-issues. Yet a broken and underwhelming Sim City 2013 got a 9.5 while staff were vehemently defending EA talking points. Good thing the game must have had enough PoC pixels to make them perfectly happy.

The people who think that ethics and obsessive identity politics dogma have nothing to do with each other is either naive, in denial, or are trying to sabotage what has been fueling GG for the last 9 months.

[–]HatredsBlazingGun 13ポイント14ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well said.

[–]gekkozorz 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, this would be like if the mod of /r/democrats decided, "we shouldn't make threads attacking Republicans, that's not constructive. Let's just make threads about how to better the cause of democracy."

There's a reason political groups talk about their opposition. It's kind of completely relevant.

[–]non_consensual 15ポイント16ポイント  (1子コメント)

It also limits us from branching out and picking up supporters and allies in other areas.

We've only grown to where we are by not limiting ourselves.

[–]dismalinterest 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes exactly! Milo and CH Sommers might not have been interested at all if we didn't have the context to bring them into the discussion.

Two of our biggest allies who have done more for GG then all the mods combined might not have ever joined us if not for the broader context of the issue.

And that is saying nothing of all the people for whom this context broke through the narrative. You see it all over the place people will say something like: "Not a gamer but you guys are doing glob's work here." Those people only know about this due to the context.

The context makes us relatable, the context gives us legs! It lets us be heard.

[–]SKELETORQUEMADA 2ポイント3ポイント  (1子コメント)

This should clear up stuff regarding the Polygon Gone Home review.

[–]videogameboss 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

you're right, it wasn't just ideological reasons, it was also personal.

[–]sodiummuffin [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

No, a major cause the dissatisfaction towards the Polygon review of Gone Home came from the very well-connected developers getting promoted by their game-journalist clique buddies. Ideology obviously played a role but attributing it to "purely for ideological reasonse" whitewashes the situation. I see someone already linked you the infographic that's been floating around for a while, but it's important that this was known from the very beginning.

https://archive.moe/v/thread/207629069/#207641832

Reviewers who are part of Idle Thumbs like the polygon chick and the guys with connection with gamasutra, along others are in close connection with a lot of gone home devs who are also part of Idle thumbs. And before you start talking shit, they call themselves friends and are know to stick out for each other like this. Devs don't have the money to buy the reviews, they had the contacts.

People have known about this shit going on for a long time, game journalism bitching threads are a long tradition on /v/. This quote is more recent, it's from August 2014, in one of the Quinnspiracy threads:

https://archive.moe/v/thread/259868435/#259870732

Gone Home developer Chris Remo Literally laughing his ass off at you guys right now. What the fuck are you going to do about it? The hack that got his buddies to 10/10 his games has won and is pissing on you. What the fuck are you going to do about it?

GG was when all those years of passive complaining became "what the fuck are you going to DO about it? And part of what GG people did about it was make a nice website called Deepfreeze where anyone can put in the name Danielle Riendeau and see the Chris Remo COI.

[–]videogameboss [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

okay, i just edited my post to reflect this information.

コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

    [–]sexy_mofo 47ポイント48ポイント  (18子コメント)

    "Social Justice" folk need to be discussed. We already know what happens when they run rampant on the internet, completely unchecked. It would be one thing if "SJW" types were no longer an ongoing threat and we were all just beating a dead horse, but this simply isn't the case. Apparently the mods of KiA still think there is some positive merit to be found in these people in particular? Why? When have they ever shown that:

    • anything that they do is constructive/productive?

    • they wouldn't simply take the inch given to them and turn it into miles and miles of bullshit "criticisms" and thinly veiled calls for censorship?

    • that they'd be willing to give the same level of leeway to people they disagree with?

    This is one of the few places on the internet where enough eyes are looking at these folk and scrutinizing their behavior... and the mods want to shut that down/phase it out because...why exactly? What ever came out of the SJW movement that was ever truly positive and lasting? Besides cirlcejerk outrage and professional victimhood?

    And, it is not as if you can just say "well we have TiA for that." The front line of this fight has been video games, not Tumblr. Most of us don't want to try and post video game related stuff on TiA, only to be told "well lol no because this isn't the sub for that."

    [–]flybypost 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    We already know what happens when they run rampant on the internet, completely unchecked.

    What exactly happens? I have no affinity for GG and an explanation would be interesting.

    [–]sexy_mofo 14ポイント15ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If you have Twitter, take a gander at the #killallmen hashtag for one fine example.

    I should also clarify: When I say "social justice" folk, I am referring to the myriads of people who use "social justice" as means to their own selfish ends, kind of like how people tooled out "religious righteousness" throughout history.

    [–]OtherBurnWard [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Subreddit Drama used to be fun

    [–]BoltbeamStarmie 0ポイント1ポイント  (2子コメント)

    What ever came out of the SJW movement that was ever truly positive and lasting? Besides cirlcejerk outrage and professional victimhood?

    Are you implying that those are positive?

    [–]sexy_mofo 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

    You're right, that was poorly worded.

    [–]SRSLovesGawker [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I'd suggest not truly positive, but the butthurt is certainly lasting among some, and professional victimhood can be spun as a career spanning a lifetime if one can feign being pathetic long enough.

    [–]A-bob-omb -4ポイント-3ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Your post completely ignores the creation of SJiA, which is exactly what the mod post describes and makes your argument moot. No one said 'we have TiA for that'.

    コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

      [–]BansheeBomb 12ポイント13ポイント  (6子コメント)

      Hat2 going full on TheBlade mode up in here. Same shit happening to HQ where the fuck did all these authoritarians come from anyway?

      [–]BoltbeamStarmie 4ポイント5ポイント  (5子コメント)

      GamerGate grows. GamerGate needs a bit of control from somewhere (internal or external) because bad comes with good. Rather than deal with it by laissez faire, GamerGate sub asks for a bit of authority. Authoritative people respond. Authoritative people be authoritative, and make authority. I know from experience; I am authoritative.

      [–]BansheeBomb 9ポイント10ポイント  (4子コメント)

      Yeah but one of the biggest reasons GamerGate even exists is because of the mass-censorship of the Five Guys scandals. Not to mention the fact that our enemies, the SJW, are the authoritarian left. Why would GamerGate want our top-dogs to be authoritarians aswell. I say just keep things as is. No one would be interested in GG if it was 100% boring ethics and journalism, we need some fun stuff and shitposting aswell.

      [–]A-bob-omb -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Do not conflate focus with censorship.

      [–]TheCyberGlitch -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Give one example of censorship since these rules were changed, one post or comment. Otherwise, your reaction comes across as hyperbole.

      [–]BoltbeamStarmie -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I edited to clarify my original post; GamerGate, somehow needs a structure of power in order to be established as a community and/or revolt. I know, I know, it's sounding close to a certain SJW demand, but I'm not saying this as a suggestion, I'm saying it as how the group operates.

      The problem of authoritative and libertarian politics in GamerGate comes as to what enforces this power, who decides what to enforce, and where the line must be drawn. In the early days of the revolt on 8chan, this was mostly done through laissez faire, as the group had the passion to moderate itself even when the official mods were away. Eventually, shitposters and wanna-be-trolls got smarter, and started to ruin what was a good system by exploiting what the community could not remove on its own (bait posts mid-thread to cause derailment, posting private information in valuable/sticky threads so that they wouldn't willingly be slid. Eventually, there needed to be more enforcement of the rules, 8channers accepted it, so it rippled throughout the other sects of the revolt. You know what, though? That's okay so long as the source of authority means well.

      In order for the "top dogs" of GamerGate to be authoritative, it isn't unreasonable to assume that power would be enforced by an external subgroup, so that they can have the "authoritative" mindset to organize as such. I don't think your question is valid in this sense, since GamerGate exists outside of KiA. The truth is that the loss of the subreddit would only hurt, but not kill, the revolt, at the cost of any real power that the moderation team for it has over the revolt. If you mean it in an "MVP" sense, I would scoff at the notion that a subgroup of would-be enforcers forgetting that a group of people censored even on the likes of 4chan is anything except for paranoid of growing authority... And that isn't even considering the possibility that our moderation team consists of people that find themselves on the authoritative-right section of the compass.

      Simply put, they are because they can.

      [–]Rokakku 63ポイント64ポイント  (20子コメント)

      I don't think the mods care what we think at this point.

      [–]XenoKriss 31ポイント32ポイント  (6子コメント)

      So basically, Hat values the opinion of John Flynt more than that of the KiA community: https://archive.is/6xF45

      [–]NoClipMode 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Wu is a sneaky cunt. Taking the opportunity there to try and cause infighting and fuck up KiA.

      コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

        [–]BasediCloud 40ポイント41ポイント  (10子コメント)

        Sometimes I wonder if KiA is even worth saving. ~Hat2

        For the greater good I will sacrifice myself and become the savior KiA needs but doesn't want right now.

        [–]The14thNoahtriggered from here to Tuscon 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

        That is not the kind of things a mod should be saying....

        [–]javiercorre 16ポイント17ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Save from what?

        [–]peanutcrackers [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        Since the previous poll results show that 80% want this content, and the uproar shows that people want it to be accessible, why not simply allow regular link posts but have the explanation as a comment rather than both in a self-post?

        You can always sort by "new" and the minority interested in the explanation will always be able to find the explanation if they want to.

        As for "karmawhoring", simply limit users to one submission per day.

        Some compromises are better win-wins than others, so why not this solution?

        コメントをもっと表示する (6 返事)

          コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

            [–]FSMhelpusall 30ポイント31ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Hat, please get out. You're a curse on GamerGate at this point.

            [–]HatredsBlazingGun 55ポイント56ポイント  (44子コメント)

            I won't cry if Twitter dramas, showerthoughts, and the severely off-topic SJW shit disappears. I worry about the "slippery slope" though, and one or two mods making this sub to be all about what they want.

            Hint mods, if your comments are getting downvoted off the page, people probably don't like what you're saying.

            [–]laughsatsjws 41ポイント42ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Being told our conversations were "off topic" and having them deleted is what created KiA.

            If it happens here, it's what will kill KiA.

            [–]A-bob-omb 6ポイント7ポイント  (0子コメント)

            It was being told they were off topic and deleted when they were on topic, actually. Let's at least be accurate.

            コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

              [–]EliteFourScott 13ポイント14ポイント  (2子コメント)

              Really don't see why the community can't police itself with downvotes. The mods are trying to dictate discourse and that's not what their role should be, in my opinion. Let us decide for ourselves what's relevant to Gamergate.

              [–]azriel777 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Which was the whole point of GG not having any leaders, the mods are power trippin.

              [–]feroslav -2ポイント-1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              You have different reddit than me? You can't upvote or downvote self-posts? What the fuck are you talking about?

              [–]GG_MeowIt's about meowthics 17ポイント18ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I'm going to say that I think the SJW stuff should stay, but I agree stuff that is really entirely unrelated is just clogging up the sub, when it could be posted elsewhere. Everyone (not just the mods) must decide where that line is drawn.

              Also; I'd be very careful about calls to axe the mods; this happens on Reddit by people who want to take over the sub. Not saying mods are infallible, but be wary of campaigns to kick them, and be wary about who steps up to offer to take the job.

              I've seen this on /r/conspiracy where people from outside the sub are constantly attacking the mods, and constantly making accounts stirring up shit against them. It's also how SRS gain control of subs, after a request is made to take over the sub, after the mods leave.

              [–]azriel777 9ポイント10ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I would agree except when the mods seem actively trying to destroy the sub. The mods have brought this up MULTIPLE times and every time the community clearly said they did not want KIA to change. We even voted for it and the mods just said fuck it and are doing it anyway. They are going full dictator and trying to control GG. I am less worried about being infiltrated by new mods, it seems they are already here.

              I do agree we should be cautious about who would be let in, has to be someone with good GG street cred that has been around since the beginning.

              [–]dismalinterest 15ポイント16ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Here's an unpopular opinion even the most off topic posts are more valuable to GG than the never ending slew of "lol I drawed Vivian James" threads.

              If we're so concerned about image how about the image that having a cartoon character as a mascot gives us?

              Whatever though the public loves it's bread and circuses.

              Edit: ?

              [–]lordthat100188 38ポイント39ポイント  (9子コメント)

              The only vote we need is a vote as to whether KiA has any more trust or confidence in its mod team. They seem to have forgotten they arw janitors and nothing more. Its time we showed them that they are.

              [–]javiercorre 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Interesting this post has better approval rate than the sticky itself.

              [–]throwawaypuay 14ポイント15ポイント  (4子コメント)

              The cabal has infiltrated KIA. Pure and simple.

              Now is the time for us to find a new home.

              [–]CaesarCzech 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Dark Eldar cabal ? i will need two bolters.

              [–]TheCyberGlitch 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              wut.

              [–]Skragzilla 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

              The only problem KIA has are these fucking asshole mods who are too self-important to just sit there quietly and play janitor like they should.

              [–]StayingOccupied 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I'll join the downvote club i guess. I've been in this sub from the start. I agree with the new rules and direction of the sub.

              [–]feroslav -1ポイント0ポイント  (14子コメント)

              why SJW stuff is getting curtailed

              Here is the problem, nothing is getting curtailed. You can post everything as always, only OT stuff must be self-posts. That's it, that's literaly it. You won't get karma. How can you have serious discussion with people who scream censorship just because they won't get karma?

              [–]maxman14 12ポイント13ポイント  (1子コメント)

              Is that seriously the problem? People are crying because they don't get imaginary number points?

              Jesus fucking christ just make everything worth no points. Fuck the karma system on this site. People should be posting shit because they want to share stuff, not for points.

              [–]RavenscroftRaven 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

              This site has a karma system?

              [–]BasediCloud 15ポイント16ポイント  (7子コメント)

              How can you have a serious discussion with people who scream just because other people get karma?

              [–]Splutch 20ポイント21ポイント  (0子コメント)

              The karma-whoring excuse is so fucking bunk I haven't heard that expression in years. But to pretend like it's a problem here is just ludicrous. It's one of those nebulous ideas that can be used to criticize anything at all.

              [–]tekende [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

              http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/37w5qj/meta_updates_to_moderation_policy_flairs_and/crqs73e

              [–]WittyNonsequitur 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I'm not a fan of over-moderation, but I think that the shrieking and rending of garments over the clarification of the moderation policy is a bit of an over-reaction.

              Instead of wasting all the time complaining and working yourselves up into a frenzy about moderation, I suggest the following: just keep doing what you were doing, and posting what you were posting. If you post something and it gets removed, then either the moderation is overzealous or the topic wasn't really crucial enough to be discussed.. by the same token, if it turns out that a subject blows up and KiA misses the bus because mods thought something was unnecessary that shouldn't have been, that will be far more damning of their moderation.. it's not like this community as a whole isn't skeptical, and something being moderated that should not have been WILL surface.

              As an aside, there's some, uh, ironies present in the arguments being made both in this thread and the sticky; people claiming that offsite coordination to control conversations and/or sockpuppeting are literal arguments that were made against Gamergate early on. Why are we making these now? Conversely, if people here aren't willing to extend the mods the smallest benefit of the doubt in terms of them trying something and reverting it / taking a mea culpa if they fuck up, you're refusing to extend the same good faith that was denied to Gamergate in its infancy.

              When you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares into you, guys.

              [–]SRSLovesGawker [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              I've been distracted and a bit out of the loop... can someone ELI5 what the issue is here? Precisely what is the problem with nudging stuff that's more "I want to rant about issue x" stuff to its own rant-related sub?

              It seems to me that making, and subscribing, to multiple subs is easy... so why not?

              [–]shinbreaker -4ポイント-3ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I'd love to see some examples because frankly, I think the moderating should be upped a bit. I keep seeing people post content from years ago of people already known for various unethical practices or bringing up tweets from people in an attempt to have this board do their dirty work. The circlejerking over certain topics and the attempts to weaponize this board is annoying.

              You want to make fun of the SJWs, then by all means to to r/TumblrinAction or r/SRSsucks. That's what they focus on. Stop bringing it hear and abusing the off-topic tag just to get your rocks off.

              [–]GammaKingThe Sealion King[M] -37ポイント-36ポイント  (51子コメント)

              What we need is a kind of AMA where the mods field the questions posed by the community asking why SJW stuff is getting curtailed. In this, mods should be expected to give complete answers instead of the patronizing comments they've been putting in the sticky. We should also debate the merits of such a policy and maybe even put it to a vote (to supplant the three other votes we've had on this topic).

              No.

              We've gone over and over our reasoning with people. The one thing that's clear is that the minority of people complaining will resist any change regardless of what we say. It's obvious too given that it tends to be the same users making numerous comments and threads all over the place with identical rhetoric.

              Some comments may seem patronizing and that's not something I'm fond of, yet part of the issue here is a subset of users who've spent the best part of a day posting the same thing over and over and over. I'll apologise in advance but I hope you'll understand some of the team's frustration.

              We're now sick of that discussion. Coupled with the vote brigading which is rampant and actively being organised offsite (yes, we know), spending even more time having the same discussion is a waste of our energy and counterproductive for the sub.

              The rules are staying. Hell, we've not even changed much. We're a day in and there's not been a single removed thread that impacts what you see on the front page. We've engaged the community. We've heard people's opinions and this is what we're doing. We've no interest in spending countless hours explaining this repeatedly to users who actively want to see this as a conspiracy.

              EDIT: oh look, downvotes. Point proven.

              [–]javiercorre 21ポイント22ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Coupled with the vote brigading which is rampant and actively being organised offsite

              Can you provide source?

              [–]Interlapse 31ポイント32ポイント  (8子コメント)

              This same thing could be applied to you, mods. You're a minority of people deciding the rules, and not listening to the people who have valid concerns, you're assuming you're being brigaded negatively, while it could be that the people brigading are actually attenuating the negative response of the community, you say there's a vocal minority against the changes, I say the vocal minority is the one asking for those changes. You deciding to not engage and just do whatever you want to do, no matter what other people think, shines a very bad light on the mod team.

              [–]Rokakku 23ポイント24ポイント  (0子コメント)

              Down vote an opinion you disagree with makes you a vote brigadier. Don't agree with the mods or common opinion you are a shill.

              [–]derram_2 30ポイント31ポイント  (14子コメント)

              So far there have been claims of karma whoring with no proof, claims of a minority of users complaining with no proof, claims of offsite brigading with no proof.

              You haven't discussed anything, you just keep saying it's final.

              [–]TheCyberGlitch 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

              The fact that people are complaining so aggressively about not getting link karma for off topic posts makes me think karma whoring might be a genuine concern.

              [–]literallyaprogrammer 19ポイント20ポイント  (0子コメント)

              EDIT: oh look, downvotes. Point proven.

              I didn't come here from off-site. I found this on KiA's front page, then I read this absurdly stupid comment, then I downvoted it.

              You've adopted a "I'm right and all the people in this sub are wrong, I know better than everyone" mentality. That's why people don't like you. It's an authoritarian position.

              [–]NocturnalQuill 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

              >Everyone disagrees with you and downvotes

              >"Point proven"

              So in other words, it was the sockpuppets that did it?

              We're not denying that you've engaged with the community, we're saying that you've just shown that you don't give a fuck what they think.

              [–]DelAvaria 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

              This attitude is horrible.

              "THE RULES ARE STAYING"

              If you are not going to listen to people at least somewhat you could at least try to appear to engage the community instead of appearing authoritarian and not caring what anyone thinks.

              I am extremely anti authoritarian and the attitude of this post REEKS of it.

              [–]Teuthex 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

              So basically you're going to do whatever you want regardless of what the community says.

              Yeah, it's time for that vote.

              [–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

              I've downvoted this too. I've been coming here for months and I don't brigade off site to vote something down. Arguments count for more than up or down votes.

              Yes, I'm sure you are sick of the discussion. You are not the only one. It's an important one to have, though, because the underlying issues have not yet been solved.

              I know that your time and energy investment is much larger in this sub than my own. I know that it is work that you do for free. I trust you to do that job well as a fellow gamergate supporter. Most of my effort is in informing people that don't know about gamergate and dispelling factual lies of anti-gamergate sources on a variety locations on the web, as well as the occasional fact fixing of gamergate supporters.

              I also participated in operation disrespectful nod and bring my own ideas to the table when I have them.

              I thought negatively of your post before I realized you're one of the mods and now that I see that and your dismissal of other opinions is worrying. Not alarming, but worrying that might turn into alarming if it's not something that gets addressed in some way.

              [–]lordthat100188 10ポイント11ポイント  (8子コメント)

              This right here is exactly why none of you should continue to be mods here. "No guys we havent abused this new rule today\yet. So its okay that its open to abuse." thats what they said about the patriot act.

              [–]OtherBurnWard [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

              I don't view GG stuff on any other site... just chiming in as another locally-generated downvote. Maybe I need to point it out all the time?

              [–]BoltbeamStarmie 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

              That was a semi-okay post... until that last line.