(cache) Drama in /r/askfeminism about victim blaming : SubredditDrama


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Gender WarsDrama in /r/askfeminism about victim blaming (np.reddit.com)

OllyTwistIt has been [0] days since /r/conspiracy has blamed the Joos が 1日前投稿

全 132 件のコメント

トップ新着論争中古い順 Q&A

[–]Antigonus1i 28ポイント29ポイント30ポイント 1日前 (76子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1日前 (23子コメント)

[–]delamarche 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 19時間前* (3子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 19時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]delamarche 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 13時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 13時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Antigonus1i 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日前* (17子コメント)

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日前 (15子コメント)

To rape someone, you have, you know, actually do something. You have to take an active part. If some drunk tries to thrust into your hips, or tries to perform oral sex on you, and you don't do anything, you are not committing rape.

This part, I guess?

I don't know. It's absurd to describe either party in this story as a rape victim. Yes, he didn't explicitly ask for consent (people in real life rarely do), but on the other hand I think it's hard to argue for a definition of rape in which people can take an active part in their own rape, where their victimisation can be at their own hand: If him fingering her makes him a victim, then there's a problem - she could have been passive for any number of reasons, including fear.

That's why your summary stuck out to me. It's not okay to fuck someone who is passed out, even if they initiate the sex, but as long as people are doing stuff to others instead of merely having things done to them, I think it's impossible and unfair to call it rape, barring threats and/or manipulation (EG date rape).

[–]atsteak 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 20時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 19時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]atsteak 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 18時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 17時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Antigonus1i 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日前 (9子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (7子コメント)

[–]zolfe 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 21時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 17時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Antigonus1i -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 23時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 23時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]Antigonus1i 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 23時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 22時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]HoldingTheFire 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 20時間前 (0子コメント)

[+]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9ポイント-8ポイント-7ポイント 1日前 (51子コメント)

[–]BolshevikMuppet 17ポイント18ポイント19ポイント 1日前 (15子コメント)

[+]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat スコアが基準値未満のコメント-16ポイント-15ポイント-14ポイント 1日前 (14子コメント)

[–]zolfe 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 1日前 (1子コメント)

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]BolshevikMuppet 14ポイント15ポイント16ポイント 1日前 (11子コメント)

None of those things are consent to sex.

All of those are evidence of consent. As is a lack of force, as is a lack of really anything in Schumer's story which indicates a lack of consent. All of which would be admissible. So, do you have any evidence to support your implication beyond that it's not impossible?

I think it's disingenuous to call her a rapist, but say men in a similar situation as her are being treated unfairly if they are prosecuted.

That comparison makes no sense. She's being called a rapist for the same reason anyone else who tells a story about raping someone (but who has not been prosecuted) would be.

That has nothing to do with whether her lack of any consequences is unfair.

One person not being capable of consenting doesn't mean the other person has consented, either.

I'll ask again, do you have any evidence to support your implication that Schumer herself might have been raped beyond pure speculation based on "it's not impossible?"

And are you claiming that Schumer would have been incapable of committing rape under the circumstances if she herself didn't consent?

In which case you're saying that if someone is themselves incapable (or simply not) consenting, they cannot commit rape. Which, ironically, undercuts your whole "even if you're drunk you're responsible for your actions" spiel. Since that logic would say that if I'm too drunk to consent, and rape someone (actual, provable, rape) it's not really rape because I was incapable of consenting myself.

[+]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat スコアが基準値未満のコメント-12ポイント-11ポイント-10ポイント 1日前 (10子コメント)

All of those are evidence of consent. As is a lack of force, as is a lack of really anything in Schumer's story which indicates a lack of consent. All of which would be admissible. So, do you have any evidence to support your implication beyond that it's not impossible?

No, none of those things indicate consent to sex.

That comparison makes no sense. She's being called a rapist for the same reason anyone else who tells a story about raping someone (but who has not been prosecuted) would be. That has nothing to do with whether her lack of any consequences is unfair.

Well, that was the argument being raised that I said was contradictory.

I'll ask again, do you have any evidence to support your implication that Schumer herself might have been raped beyond pure speculation based on "it's not impossible?"

Lack of consent is lack of consent, right?

And are you claiming that Schumer would have been incapable of committing rape under the circumstances if she herself didn't consent?

If she did not consent to sex, and didn't initiate sex, how, exactly, does that make her a rapist?

Which, ironically, undercuts your whole "even if you're drunk you're responsible for your actions" spiel. Since that logic would say that if I'm too drunk to consent, and rape someone (actual, provable, rape) it's not really rape because I was incapable of consenting myself.

Being incapable of consenting to sex doesn't inure you from criminal liability.

[–]BolshevikMuppet 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 1日前 (7子コメント)

No, none of those things indicate consent to sex.

And fortunately for people accused of rape, the burden is on the accuser (in this case, that'd be you) to prove that she didn't consent, not on him to prove that she did.

And since all of the evidence is circumstantial evidence of consent, you're still making entirely unfounded speculation.

Lack of consent is lack of consent, right?

And you can prove she didn't consent? I'm impressed, you must be some kind of psychic.

Oh! No, you're just trying to shift the burden of proof. Well let's keep that right where it is. Try again.

If she did not consent to sex, and didn't initiate sex, how, exactly, does that make her a rapist?

You have no evidence she did not consent.
Are you claiming that someone intoxicated beyond the point of being able to consent cannot be raped as long as they're on top?

Being incapable of consenting to sex doesn't inure you from criminal liability.

I'll refer you to your own line just a few inches above:

"If she did not consent to sex... how, exactly, does that make her a rapist?"

If I'm too drunk to consent, I did not consent to sex. By your logic, I am immune from this criminal liability because I did not consent to sex.

Unless your argument is that cowgirl can never be rape against a woman.

Incidentally, "inured" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

[+]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10ポイント-9ポイント-8ポイント 1日前 (6子コメント)

[–]BolshevikMuppet 9ポイント10ポイント11ポイント 1日前 (5子コメント)

IF the person they are initiating sexual contact with has not consented, it's hard for me to understand how the non consenting person is a rapist.

Again, you've provided literally nothing to support this rather odd implication that somehow Schumer didn't consent.
By your logic, anyone not consenting cannot be a rapist even if they have sex with someone who was not consenting. Ergo, a drunk person cannot be a rapist.

Not consenting and being incapable of consenting are two different things.

I assume you'll be providing the portion of Maryland law which distinguishes the two.

I'll save you the trouble, Maryland law doesn't distinguish the two:

http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmStatutesText.aspx?article=gcr&section=3-304&ext=html&session=2015RS&tab=subject5

Unable to consent due to intoxication is legally equivalent to not consenting. So if your scheme is "lack of legal consent means they are a victim and cannot under any circumstances be a rapist", you're opening a big door for drunken frat boys to rape women as long as they clearly indicate they're drunk.

For instance, someone under the age of consent can still be held criminally liable for raping someone who is an adult.

And someone who does not affirmatively consent to sex is still guilty of statutory rape if he or she has sex with a minor.

Your distinction doesn't work.

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1日前 (4子コメント)

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[–]Mikeavelli -1ポイント0ポイント1ポイント 1日前 (1子コメント)

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]Antigonus1i 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前* (6子コメント)

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 1日前 (4子コメント)

[–]Antigonus1i 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1日前 (3子コメント)

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 1日前 (2子コメント)

[–]Antigonus1i 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1日前* (1子コメント)

[+]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7ポイント-6ポイント-5ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[+]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[–]mrsamsa -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 1日前 (27子コメント)

[–]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat -5ポイント-4ポイント-3ポイント 1日前 (26子コメント)

[–]mrsamsa -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日前 (25子コメント)

[–]Elkmont 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1日前 (24子コメント)

[–]mrsamsa -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 1日前 (23子コメント)

No one is denying a drunk person can rape.

Then there's not really much to disagree with in anisaerah's posts and no need to downvote them.

People are arguing there is no indication of Schumer not consenting therefor trying to blame the guy who could not consent is hypocrical victim blamming.

I don't want to get dragged into the specifics of the Schumer case but the people arguing are pointing out that there is no evidence that she consented, a lot of her language was "he pushed me on the bed", "I lay there and cringed at his attempts at oral", etc, etc, and so from their position they don't think she's taken any active role that could constitute rape.

Even if they're wrong in their assessment of the situation, there is no hypocrisy because their position is consistent and there's no victim blaming. They are (at most) simply just wrong about the facts.

[–]Elkmont 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1日前* (17子コメント)

Lets flip the script on this story and see how the story sounds.

So this absolutely wasted chick showed up at my house at like 6 this morning. Completed trashed I tell you, but damn if she does just bardge in and start trying to make out with me. She sticking her beer stank tongue down my throat while she pushes me into the bedroom slurring some completely incoherent babble, but hey, its been a while and I need some pussy. While we're going at it she's just dry as a bone, but I make it work. She on top and seems to be going in and out of consciousness. At some point she goes down on me and it feels like a toothless dog trying to eat a hotdog. Several times I have to lightly tap her cheeks to keep her awake. I never actually consented, but hey, I was able to finish.

Thoughts on my morning?

Edit: It doesnt matter if she takes an active role. Simply not saying no and continueing makes her the one in the wrong. He was inebriated to the point where under no circumstances he could consent. You're taking facts and attempting to trump them with feelings, that's not how things work.

[+]mrsamsa スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1日前 (16子コメント)

Well, for the sake of discussion we'll ignore the fact that "reverse the genders" argument never really makes any sense, and try to assess it based on the facts. I'd suggest you'd need to take these parts out:

but hey, its been a while and I need some pussy. While we're going at it she's just dry as a bone, but I make it work.

and

but hey, I was able to finish.

as they make it sound like you were an active participant in the act. If it's closer to the Schumer description, it would look like this:

So this absolutely wasted chick showed up at my house at like 6 this morning. Completed trashed I tell you, but damn if she does just bardge in and start trying to make out with me. She sticking her beer stank tongue down my throat while she pushes me into the bedroom slurring some completely incoherent babble, I looked around the room to try and distract myself or God willing, disassociate. I want to scream to myself, "Get out of here". I felt paralyzed. Her asshole is a canyon, and this was my 127 Hours. I might chew my arm off. She eventually fell asleep and I became my own hero. I waited until the last perfect note floated out, and escaped from under her and out the door.

In that case, I'd absolutely agree that it's difficult to say that you raped that girl.

Edit: It doesnt matter if she takes an active role. Simply not saying no and continueing makes her the one in the wrong. He was inebriated to the point where under no circumstances he could consent. You're taking facts and attempting to trump them with feelings, that's not how things work.

You just said above that nobody is denying that drunk people can rape people, yet here you are explicitly saying that. If she's not taking an active role, that means she hasn't given consent. Going along with something, in a state described as extremely upset, attempting dissociation, and looking for a way out, isn't consent.

[–]Elkmont 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (15子コメント)

I did not describe feeling for a reason. My feelings during the encounter mean less than the actions taken during the encounter. If feelings are what is relient upon making a consensual encounter non consensual then regret equals rape and no one should ever perform poorly due to fear of the other person not feeling it.

Edit: It doesnt matter if she takes an active role. Simply not saying no and continueing makes her the one in the wrong. He was inebriated to the point where under no circumstances he could consent. You're taking facts and attempting to trump them with feelings, that's not how things work.

You just said above that nobody is denying that drunk people can rape people, yet here you are explicitly saying that.

If this is what you understood from the quote you are dillusional.

If she's not taking an active role, that means she hasn't given consent. Going along with something, in a state described as extremely upset, attempting dissociation, and looking for a way out, isn't consent.

Oh, nervermind.... yep regret equals rape.

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[–]DBrickShaw 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 23時間前* (4子コメント)

[–]mrsamsa 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 17時間前 (3子コメント)

Do you know of any jurisdiction where sexual assault is actually defined in a way that requires an "active role" on the part of the perpetrator? Would you apply the same standard to an adult having sex with a minor?

All of them, as far as I know. If a minor has sex with a person who is not consenting, what law would punish them for rape?

To me, this sounds like a poor rephrasing of the "it can't be rape if the woman is on top" argument, and I don't know of any jurisdiction where the law actually supports this idea.

I don't see how that situation is comparable. That argument is an attempt to claim that the woman is consenting because she is taking an active role but that action can be nullified by a number of factors, like intoxication.

In this case the point is that no consent is apparent from Schumer, no active role is taken, and she initiated no sexual acts.

So your argument is like the argument that someone can't be a rape victim if they don't fight back as you're saying she's a rapist because she didn't fight hard enough to get away from him as he did things to her.

[–]DBrickShaw 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 16時間前 (2子コメント)

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[–]IndieLadyMy metacancer brings all the cabals to the yard 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 1日前 (1子コメント)

[–]Elkmont 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

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[–]TheIdesOfLurchu/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK alt -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 1日前 (46子コメント)

[+]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11ポイント-10ポイント-9ポイント 1日前 (45子コメント)

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[–]SloppySynapses 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 1日前 (5子コメント)

[+]anisaerahone-armed Belgian circus acrobat スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9ポイント-8ポイント-7ポイント 1日前 (4子コメント)

Secondly, I'm not going to pick a side, although anyone who says he raped her is asinine.

If we are going to assume such stringent standards for consent, then they apply to everyone.

I don't understand, what's consent to you?

Specifically agreeing to take part in a particular activity.

If he felt that she had assaulted him because he was unable to consent, he could have called the police. Arguing on the internet about whether she's a rapist to make the argument that drunk sex is never rape, when the supposed victim has not accused her of any such thing is kind of ridiculous.

Also, seems like you're also 'moving the goalpost.' You went from "we're talking about consent" to "kissing is sexual assault?"

If a drunk person initiates sexual contact with someone who had not consented to such, I have a hard time understanding how the person who specifically did not consent is a rapist.

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[–]Elkmont 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 1日前 (29子コメント)

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[–]TheLadyEve 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 1日前 (2子コメント)

[–]OllyTwistIt has been [0] days since /r/conspiracy has blamed the Joos[S] 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (1子コメント)

[–]TheLadyEve 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 1日前 (0子コメント)

[+]karma1337a スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6ポイント-5ポイント-4ポイント 1日前 (5子コメント)

[–]LieBaronGhostwriter for bonjouramigos :S 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 1日前 (1子コメント)

[–]karma1337a -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 20時間前 (0子コメント)

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[–]karma1337a -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 20時間前 (1子コメント)

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