I Know You Didn’t Just Say Dutch: Why Women Should NOT Split The Tab On A First Date

September 24, 2012 ‐ By Charing Ball
63 Comments

"Black couple on date"

According to an article in the Daily Mail UK, the website FridayFriday.com, has conducted a survey, which revealed that the vast majority of men surveyed, around 51 percent, would ask for their lady partners to chip in on a first date. Even more surprising, a frugal five percent responded that it would be a great idea for their date to even pay for the entire evening.

Interesting enough, financial concerns were cited as the number one reason why men today preferred going Dutch, however, many of those polled stated that they felt it was unfair, considering that the gap between male and female pay is shrinking, which means that women should be expected to contribute to a first date.

However, in the immortal words of the fictional State Senator Clay Davis from “The Wire,” Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeit….

Now there are some social cues, which I would be glad to relinquish; helping with my seat or closing the door on my own vehicle. However, going dutch, or heck, even paying for a first date, ain’t one of them. In fact, I have never in my 35 years–15 plus years of those spent dating–ever, and I mean ever, had a man try to split a tab with me on the first date. And as long as I am on the market, I will never, ever pay for a first day–ever!

My feelings are that a woman has to have standards and boundaries. And as said woman with boundaries and standards, it is my belief that a well-armed gentleman knows that first impressions count. And any dude, who wants to go dutch on the first date, should probably sit at his own damn table and let me enjoy my meal that I’m paying for in peace.

It may seem passé, however, many men have a laundry list of assumptions and preconceived notions about the proper conduct of women that they date. If she puts out on the first date, she is not-relationship worthy. If she wears a wig or weave, than she is superficial and self-hating. And if she wears short tight dresses, well, she is asking for it. So it’s only fair that I share my–and a few other women other there I suspect–assumptions on guys who ask for a chip-in on a first date.

They are bums.

Tonight it’s a free meal, next week it’s the keys to your car. They are used to being chased, therefore are incapable of excising any tenets of traditional manhood. Lastly, they have serious issues with women. I’m talking about full-card carrying members of the National Organization of Men Against Amazonian Masterhood, or NO MA’AM for short. These are the type of guys who will sue an establishment because they couldn’t get free drinks during ladies night at the bar. And you can regularly find these dudes, sitting in their momma’s basement, writing long blog posts and trolling women’s site raving about why we are all b***hes. You can read all about these types in one of my previous columns about these bitter dudes.

And I’m not buying the whole, “women make their own money” argument either. While the income disparages between women and men are shrinking, that doesn’t mean that it’s equal. Not to mention that black women, as a whole, still tend to earn way less for the same work as their black male counterparts and white people in general. And secondly, do you know how much it costs for me to look good for a date? Let’s see: bath shower gel, hair products, hair salon visit, new outfit, new shoes to go with that new outfit, new purse, make up, possible tampons, birth control and mace. When you do the actual math, it is clear to see that woman spend considerably more money just to get ready for a date than a man would on getting ready and paying for a date combined. So if he is willing to reimburse you for the time you spent, plucking eyebrows or getting your feet done by Korean nail techs than by all means, chip in. But if not, well, pony up, chump.

I kid about the chump part. I know that we are all modern now and some women probably would be down for the dutch lifestyle, mainly because splitting the check reduces any ulterior motives such as sex.  However, a great way for a man to earn trust is by paying in the beginning, and not sniffing around for sex afterwards, as it establishes that his only motive is to get to know her and spend a fun evening in the company of his date. At least that is how I have always seen it.

And that is not to say that I have offered, or even paid for dates before: usually those occasions occur on birthdays, on Christmas and in long-term relationships. And sometimes I will pull out my wallet and offer to pay to test dudes. I’m happy to report that no one has failed the test. But if ever one decided to take me up on the offer, I would casually excuse myself to the bathroom and leave the dirt bag right where he sits.  Remember ladies, always carry cab/bus fare. Just in case.

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  • what goes around

    I always offer to pay my share of the bill, it’s part of the etiquette, everyone knows the “I’ll pay my way”, “no I’ll get it” drill. If he accepts and he’s silly enough to also try to put the hard word on me I tell him we haven’t been dating we’ve just been “hanging out” as friends, I retroactively say no to a date with him by reframing it. If he can degrade the interaction by not paying for an event I’m his invited guest at I can degrade his efforts by turning them into something other than a date. He’s calling me a tart so I’m telling him his idea of fun sucks, he can’t plan for crap and no way would I be into him. We’re even.

    That “women are equal” thing is such a cop out, the dating process was already equal, it was the rest that needed fixing. But if men want to down the whole “women are equal’ path then he can cook his own damn dinner and wash his own dirty socks, he can adopt too, I’m not ruining my figure, bloating for 9 months and going through labour to have his babies, since I contribute 1/2 financially I’ve done my bit, we’re equal. I may just decide too in future if he gets sick and can’t work he isn’t pulling his weight and leave him, since contribution is all about money. It’s about consideration and generosity, not “equality”, any man who doesn’t get this doesn’t have the social literacy to be dating.

  • Dan Artz

    A guy shows he cares by paying and a girl simply shows she cares by showing up? Sounds pretty lopsided to me.

  • Dan Artz

    Do you have any idea how backwards this entire article sounds? You’re calling a guy a bum because he is simply asking a woman to pay for her own damn food. Where in the hell does this sense of entitlement come from? I always pay for first dates, but whenever I hear a woman go on a rant about stuff like this, it makes me wonder how feminism can ever be taken seriously.

    It’s such a cultural norm for women to be entitled and “BUMS”.

    For the record, there is this thing called “spell check”.

  • Not Settling

    Any man who is stingy with money on a first date HE initiated will be stingy with affection, time, and many important things down the road. This is a guarantee. If a man is a GENTLEMAN, he will insist on paying because it is honorable and shows he values the woman. And one more point, never mentioned in this article, is that for single moms to date, frequently the cost of a babysitter for the evening is greater than the cost of dinner! So don’t give me that “women earn as much as men” BS either. Great article.

  • Deez

    tenets of traditional manhood

  • David

    Overall you’d think this would be good advice. In reality, I’ve had more luck and respect for women that split. Whether I said we’d split or she did. This is not 1950, and most men hate dating because paying for a stranger who you may actually dislike is absolutely ridiculous.

    The reason this came about is because women DID NOT get paid as much as men in the past and it was completely unreasonable for women to pay half. Times change and the majority of dates where I split, the women become more interested. Whether they disliked it at first, they had to INVEST something into the date rather than get a free meal.

    In my experience, the women who insist on men paying so much are usually selfish and stubborn. Hardly great qualities to look for in a potential relationship.

    Sorry girls, if you expect me to pay, you best be amazing or we’re splitting. I went through a bunch of those “old school” girls (which is really just an excuse for having the guy pay) that put so much focus on whose paying rather than getting to know one another. It never works out since they’re shallow, judgmental and superficial. My current girlfriend, paid for my first meal and so I took her out to another spot right after for drinks. Happily together.

    You “old school” girls need to get a clue. I’m sure there are plenty of chumps who still pay for the first date though.

    OP is an idiot.

  • guest

    went on a date yesterday…guy wanted to go out of town..separate cars..he insisted on going to dinner picked the restaurant..the bill comes waitress says “one check or two”..he looks at me and says “one check or two”? i said what? he said “are you ok with two checks”? i said oh no…i didnt bring my credit card. I hadnt it was in my car, but the nerve of him?! omg. He said oh ok i’ll cover ya. Then, we went to a movie…i had already seen the movie and didnt want to see it again, but was going for him. When we got there…he turned around to ask me again..if i was gonna get my ticket. He said “oh you really dont have your CC on you?” i said oh no i brought the wrong card…i just have 15.00 for gas on it. lol…seriously…pathetic. you ask a girl to go to dinner and a movie she doesnt even want to see and you want HER to pay for it? i mean he did pay so he wasn’t the worst but still…the nerve of guys today…so many are pathetic…they’re just looking to get something from a girl for nothing basically…they want sex, but dont want to go on dates and pay for dates…ive had dates where a guy wouldn’t buy a 5.00 chinese meal at the mall and asked to split it. Then, he didnt stand up for me when the lady gave our meal to someone else and it was the last one there. Then he was trying to get sex in some form in some creepy way. Then when I declined and cut ties with him he wrote bad report about me online with a bunch of lies saying i broke his heart…and it was our 2nd date..ridiculous..and crazy…

    • Dan Artz

      LOL.. OH NO.. A GUY ASKING FOR YOU TO PAY FOR YOURSELF.. HOW HORRIBLE

  • melissaa

    i was on a date earlier this week. ive guarded myself from psychos like this because of previous experiences but still it happened. We went to a movie..he wanted to ‘go out to dinner/movie” internet thing. He paid for the movie, I think paid for a drink but wasn’t happy about it. He was acting weird, about paying for the movie and during the date–he kept kind of intruding in my space…putting his knee close to me, throwing negative energy. I was getting annoyed and even got up at one point b/c i was about to move. I even had to ask him to move his leg from my chair area. He was trying to either make me feel uncomfortable or attempt to ‘touch me’ but not really. He continued trying to lean close to me, almost taking up my chair area…it was just horrible. The movie experience was terrible…afterwards, we were supposed to get something to eat. I didnt really want to, he offered to go to my or his place for ‘pizza and a movie’ and i declined. He said ok let’s go to some wing place. We go, and minute he sits down he begins HURLING nonsense at me saying he’s TIRED of the dating and it’s stupid, and how he’s blunt and from europe and to the point. he’s tired of women saying…oh they have to go on a few dates, and they can’t do this and that. You could tell he wa s apsycho or angry taking his anger out on me, random date. He was half french and half arab so yes psycho.

    He continued saying that europeans are blunt and he says what he wants…that he wants to ‘cut all the BS” ie like…all the weeks of dating and get to the point. basically he was saying he just wanted ‘sex.’ I’m thinking…oh God..i shouol dhave gotten up but I was too passive to do that. He said he’s attracted to me and i told himn stories of men who were jerks or said ive met lots of jerks and losers. He said “well how do you know YOURE not the loser.” like wtf?? lol. he said well how do you know those guys just werent intimidated by you? im thinking..are you kidding me here? he was horrible…just pathetic..rude disrespectful..trash.. He continues on and on the whole date…it was uncomfortable and a nightmare. even the manager was looking at us funny as if something was wrong wtih the freak. Then he asked if i could sit next to him b/c he couldnt hear me. i said oh no i can speak louder. later in the date, he asked again and i just said…ok well why dont u sit next to me…dont ask me why i said that. He came and sat next to me…and i felt odd. He said “there now don’t you feel better.” i said..why? he said because im close to you. He ran his disgusting hand in my hair…and i thought…err? gross? wing sauce? The waitress came and said “one check or two” and he said “one” then he said “oh no two” and i had told him some things such as “well i didnt mind u putting your arm around me at the movies but im too shy to say that at first sine i dont know you very well.” I wasnt lying but this slimeball said “you know what..i dont think you wanted me to put my arm around you at the movies.” i was thinking wtf? but basically….he did the two check thing and i would have walked out, but my wings were sitting there and i wanted to take them to go. I waited for a second then told him off and said he was a jerk and a psycho and to put someone through that hell was ridiculous, then to say two checks. he said “oh but if i paid then it’s ok.” i said it’s about RESPECT…and you have NONE. i got up..to pay because it was just 10.00…but that was one sick POS…there are lots of twisted sick psychopaths liek that out there….never buy their bullsh*t and never let them disrespect you….all they do is try to con and use women if they can that’s it. They enjoy just degrading people as well. never let these twisted cheap dirtbag males manipulate you into thinking its OK for a woman to pay….its not…these are really scummy awful people…

    • Dan Artz

      Based on your spelling and grammar, I assume you’re poorly educated.

      • 915915

        Go away already!

  • melissa

    thank you! i totally agree with this….im sick of this BS about men and women being equal and you are RIGHT….those psychos cheap bums are the fukers trolling these sites writing about how men/women should go dutch. there is a website reasons why youre single or something and that is one scumbag though its a female. There are SO many CHEAP BUM USING MALES OUT THERE THESE DAYS…awful people…they are there to USE WOMEN if they can and the unsuspecting naive female WILL get taken advantage of…

  • NeverWaltz@4/4

    On their first date, my dad wanted to pay the bill for dinner, and my mom would have none of that. They actually argued about who would pay, each saying that they should. My dad won out, and ended up paying. The girl I’m dating now has the same feelings. She wants to pay, and I had to be quicker with the bill for myself to pay. I’m fairly old fashioned, like my dad, and I guess we both have a thing for empowered women. In my parents’ case though, it was the early 1970s. I still think it’s funny to argue about paying the bill, the way we did.

  • Kayo Halana Malie

    I don’t care what anyone says. I prefer to pay for myself when going out. I don’t like the feeling of owing someone.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Latrece-Hoskins/100002627012546 Latrece Hoskins

      i agree.

  • rob

    Women who have a problem with this tend to be gold diggin heaux’s…..see how those generalizations work……

  • TellinItLikeItIs

    I concur with the author’s ideas; but there ARE exceptions to every ‘rule’. I have discovered that many ‘generous’ chaps also expect some ‘lovin’ in lieu of gratuity. I am in Atlanta; where the ‘rumor’ is that there are 17 females for every 1 male. As an extremely beautiful (5′ 4″ @ 125 lbs), intelligent, and multi-talented lady, I don’t suffer this ‘shortage’. What I DO suffer are fellas who automatically presume that my acceptance of a dinner date for which they pay shall ensue sexual intercourse. They’re first indignant comments are ‘well why’d ya have me payin for all dis $#!t if you just gon’ front’? So….I not only come out with enough to pay for my OWN darn crap; but a little extra for my transport home. I’ll be danged to be bound to some 1800’s ‘obligatory’ bullcrap. What’s a bad idea….is females who DO let the guy pay and reluctantly grant his sexual wishes because she feels like ‘she owes him’. How’s bout speakin on DAT?

  • #TeamDutchChick

    This article shows what the problem is with today’s woman – they want all the Privileges of Equality, but none of the Responsibility. I just don’t understand chicks who have a 2012 mentality about education and the work force, but a 1912 mentality about dating.

  • Daisyface

    I think that the person who invites/sets up the first date should be the one to pay. Usually this is the man, so the man should pay. I always offer to split out of courtesy, but then let him pay if he insists. However, later in the dating game…if I come up with an idea or invite a man to do something with me, I don’t mind splitting. I will even pay the whole thing myself if we have been dating long enough and have that type of relationship.

    • Dan Artz

      Wow… so big of you to eventually pay for a date. Really impressive…

  • Pivyque

    Interesting. I actually think that the first date is the only time you should expect to go dutch. The scenario I am thinking of involves two people that don’t know each other very well. If we don’t click by the end of the date, no one has lost anything. We had good food and paid for our own meals.

    • what goes around

      I think it’s fine to meet someone casually if you don’t know them and assess if you like them enough to ask them on a date. Jumping straight into dating with someone you haven’t had an initial connect with is a lot of pressure to put on one meeting, the odds of getting a second date go way up if you already have common ground. But I also think that depends on your culture and what you consider a date, my culture men will take women out and treat purely for the company or to be seen out with an attractive woman and macho men consider a woman paying an insult to their status. In my culture a woman who pays is considered less desirable, bordering on desperate, it’s seen as her buying his company which isn’t complimentary to the man.

  • FromUR2UB

    Stay home, Cheapos! You don’t need to date!

  • Nope

    I’m tradition man. I like a woman that is pretty, stays in shape, smells good, always feminine, knows when to STFU, wears heels, only has body hair on her head and eyebrows, can cook, never complains, and gives me sex on the spot.

    • bizchick

      I hope that’s not all dude! What about being supportive, not a gold-digger, loving? You’re either single or 17.

      • Nope

        My point is that women have an a la carte mentality with ‘traditional’. They only want the some parts of being traditional. You all like to throw that word around when it’s convenient for you. For a woman ‘tradition’ = I want what I want.

        • bizchick

          Soo tradition= I want what I want, but women aren’t allowed that same formula? And tbh, having a man pay for dates is one of the few, barely, traditions women have left. The bar has been set so low for men. While your list, on the other hand, is quite a bit more traditional and demanding

          • Nope

            Men being players is a part of ‘traditi on’ too. But I never he ar women advocating in favor of that one. Do women want equality and rights, or ‘tradition’ because a lot of men are confused.

            • Miss Anonymous

              Yes men being players is part of the tradition, but shunning the outside kids that arent your mother’s is also part of it too. I think some men love to have things traditional until it comes to their daughters. I know many men who expect all that and then some for a traditional woman but then teaches their daughters different. My dad was the one to push me for a higher education and a great job so that (if worst comes to worse) my future husband leaves me I will be able to do bad all by myself.

    • FromUR2UB

      You may need two women for that: the blowup doll and the cook.

  • http://www.facebook.com/brandon.hallme Brandon Hall

    If you are equally yolked in status and want to be once a relationship is being built, why does it matter who pays? How will you show him you are appreciative of his hospitality and kindness. It’s all about you you and you right? If you aren’t interested in getting to know the gentleman and not just into seeing how much he will spend on you, why do you go? How are you going to and will you show him you care about him and are interested. Truth be told, your company isn’t enough even though you think it is. Ever think about why he won’t call the next day after a “good” date? Men want to be and feel appreciated as well. Think about it ladies while you are giving each other high fives over men spending money on you. .

    • http://www.yourtango.com/users/cheekee-baby cheekee baby

      Because it gauges his interest. A dude who asks you out but splits the bill isn’t interested in you point blank period. A man who is genuinely interested in a woman at a minimum will have no problem paying for the first date. He doesn’t feel used but considers it money well spent on someone he likes.

  • Candacey Doris

    You know, i have no problem paying for my part on the first date. But don’t ever spring it on me when we’re eating dessert or something or tell me you “forgot” your wallet. That’s some high school stuff. Be up front, honest, and (dare i say) man up and tell me ahead of time. I might actually like a man more if he does!
    But these days there are so many cheap or free dates that it shouldn’t be necessary to do this on the first date. I don’t want to go to any super expensive place our first time out. What if we don’t hit it off? Then you spent 100 dollars on a girl that is not seeing you again. Be easy and go casual the first time. And bring some cash.

  • donalda

    Dutch on a first date? No, no, no. No dutch until there’s a relationship is my rule. Not because I’m some gold digger but because its simple risk. Women risk more in dating than men. We’re more likely to get raped, a disease, and we pay more to get ready for that date: waxing, makeup, clothing; also, we are paid less in general. Men are the pump and dump sex and women are pickier and need ways to gauge his interest. Him paying for dates is one way to know. My first months of dating with my hubs I didn’t pay for *ish. Once we were serious, paying dutch was fine.

    • Dan Artz

      I guarantee my clothes cost more than yours. You make a bunch of false assumptions which you then attempt to use as a justification for getting free meals/alcohol/etc.

  • realadulttalk

    I’ve never had a man ask me to pay for a first date…that’s crazy!!

  • Sistah Peace

    35 and still single. We should listen to you why? lol

    But honestly, I’m sure some dudes are bums who want you to pay for your portion of the meal/activity. So you’re right there. The ‘male assumptions’ are all negative… are men that bad? I don’t make a living saying ‘not necessarily’ but is it even the majority of men who feel that way?

    And I think you lost me on the ‘sitting in mama’s basement’ part. I don’t even know ANY grown men who do that. Although I’m sure you do and sure it’s a majority of black men.

    At any rate, nice spin on this tried and true topic. Seems like you rushed it towards the end though. I enjoyed sistah!

  • Janay

    This is what I dont get of the some men today. They assume zero roles of a traditional male (ie paying for dinner, dates,providing) but have the expectations of the high heavens. (want a woman to cook clean etc). Mean while women are assuming the traditional roles of males (ie working a dizzayum 9-5). If loser ask you to go dutch, ditch him.

    • Kayo Halana Malie

      I agree with you that men today have high expectations of women when they offer very little themselves, but I don’t agree that having a job is a ‘male role’.

      • Janay

        Traditionally having a job was only for males. Thats just a fact. What I mean is women of today are taking on roles that were traditionally for men (ie having a job). But on the flip side of that mean are taking on less roles that were traditionally for them (ie having a job, providing, protecting, being chivalrous, paying for dinner) but still have the nerve to expect traditional roles out of women. So women have a surplus of demands from men. Women have a deficit of demands from them.

    • Dan Artz

      If you expect a man to always pay for you then you’re essentially admitting to being a prostitute.

      • what goes around

        If you expect a woman to cook and clean for you and pay the bills you’re essentially admitting to being a child.

  • Kells

    Laughable.. I might pay for the third date but never first or second.. Third means I like you some what…

  • Adrina

    No one has ever asked me to pay for any date..1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on..maybe it’s just Southern men. But I haven’t had that experience here in NY either. And personally I wouldn’t go dutch on the first date…forget about it. I would later on in a relationship though.

  • get real

    Only time a woman should pay is if she asks you out for dinner.

    • Miss Anonymous

      Yes I agree as long as she asked first. The asker is suppose to pay for the date, not the askee. Having the person you asked out to pay is akin to buying someone a birthday gift and telling them yall can set up a payment plan to pay for their gift.

    • Nope

      But women never ask, because they’re too terrified to do so.

      • Miss Anonymous

        We might not ask all the time but we can sure send out a hell of a “hey im interested in you” vibe. Some ask and get either good or bad results. I know we are all afraid of rejection but I would hate to go out on multiple dates with a guy I asked to get the “im not interested in a relationship” or “lets be friends” after doing a lot fo bonding. The same can be said for men too but if a girl I coming to your job on her week off dressed up to the nines and always smiling and making convo with you it should be a clear sign she is interested. Especially if your working at a elementary and she “just has to” make sure her sister gets to class that is infront of your classroom. lol

  • Hello_Kitty81

    I remember when this guy I was seeing back in college took me out to Applebee’s and he said he “accidentally” left his wallet at home. I knew he was on BS so I told him I had to go to the bathroom and ended up leaving out the door and took the bus home, he planned the date, said he was gonna pay for us, and I only had $20 on me and the bill was $40.

    • luvey87

      LOL! He could sit there by himself and think about where he left his wallet!

    • realadulttalk

      Now that’s funny.

    • mac

      I woulda told his dumb a** oh don’t worry, I’ll sit here and you can go back and get it. Lmao the nerve of these guys

      • FromUR2UB

        Yeah, and he would have been like, “Don’t move. I’ll be riiiiiiiight back”.

    • Dan Artz

      Reminds me of a time I met up with a girl at a bar. She conveniently “left her purse at home” so I paid for her drinks all night. Typical woman.

  • Please believe

    Amen! Nuff said!…I wish a n*gga would ask me to go dutch. It’s rude and disrespectful to even think about making that suggestion. If you cannot afford a restaurant, I suggest you get creative. Pick a less expensive place. Cook and suggest a picnic. Take me to that cheap but delicious Jerk Chicken spot on the corner. Or find a free poetry reading event and we can settle on some appetizers and drinks. Everything does not have to be centered around an expensive meal at some fancy restaurant. But please please please don’t you ever ever ever ask me to go dutch! There is still something to be said about courtship and demonstrating to a woman just how much you like her. Chile, I couldn’t have written this article any better myself.

    • Cinnamon71

      I agree with you completely!!! I’m old school so I believe the man should ask you out and pay for the first date. I am a realist so I always bring my own money just in case. If I do have to end up paying dutch or for the entire first date, there won’t be a second. You don’t have to be extravagant but you do have to be chivalrous. There’s time for going dutch or me picking up the tab later on if we become a couple.

    • qui8storm83

      Agree! Some Men are just plain lazy! It’s not hard to find less
      expensive and creative dates if a Man “really” wants to date a quality woman. I’ve
      been on dates such as: festivals….volunteer work together….or experiencing a
      new hobby together. If a woman doesn’t appreciate it….the guy needs to keep it
      moving. Too many women trying to play too much of the role of a Man & not
      enough Men are stepping up to play their role as a MAN!

      • Cinnamon71

        Amen!

        • mikee

          Are men suppose to pay. If a female asked him. A girl at my job kept asking me. So I said yes. But i don’t want to spend MY money on her. Im just going for the ………….

          • Miss Anonymous

            Well technically she is to pay since she asked, but dont get upset if she wants some nookie since she paid for the date. lol

          • what goes around

            This is why men are meant to ask and pay, to avoid men just going for the… If a man doesn’t ask you don’t know if he’s even interested in you or just taking what you throw his way.

            To answer your question she asks she pays but I’d clarify that with her first, if you *were* into her though you’d step up and pay to make a good impression. Also if it’s a workplace thing I don’t see where this is going to go ending well for you, she’s already insistent, how much worse is it going to get if things don’t go the way she wants them to, she’s going to end up owning your arse.

  • L-Boogie

    Going Dutch is not a bad idea on a first date. Especially if you are not sure if you like that person. But the door and seat are definitely a must. Those are major deal breakers.

    • realadulttalk

      I think I have some insight into your “stay single” mantra.