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How American parenting is killing the American marriage (qz.com)

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[–]Dnargel 27ポイント28ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've read things along these lines before and can say that I do agree with the author that the parenthood religion is definitely a thing.

As a recently divorced dad and father of a seven year old this article strikes several chords with me. My son's mother is already in another slightly rocky relationship. She moved quickly to another man, one who makes a significantly greater amount of money than I ever did. I on the other hand, have been relegated to the broke, single dad corner of society. I'm not lamenting my fate but it feels strange. I never planned on this. I want my son to know that just because the union of his parents dissolved, he is no less loved and cared for.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say here so I'll stop. This article just stirred up some feelings. I really feel like a lot of women just want to be mothers more than they want to be good partners. This is just my experience though.

[–]dog_eat_dog 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hugs, bro. Hugs.

You're doing a great job just by caring as much as you do.

[–]indyphil 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Im in the midst of divorce too. I chose to leave because after years of begging i could see no improvements. Literally every area of our relationship was broken the only thing she did at all was be a mom.

It should be seen like the oxygen masks on the plane. You cant be a great parent if your relationship is broken and youre arguing all the time. The kids hate it and everyone is miserable. The kids need you to be healthy, but if you neglect the relationship to focus on the kids you cant be healthy.

I think the problem has become that people (not always moms im sure dads do it too) have become obsessed with the appearance of being a good parent. Much like we all want to show our best side in social media. The ugly relationship can be hidden, but kids afterschool activities, test scores, or growth can be seen by all. It feels like the opposite side of the coin - men who throw themselves into their career (chasing status and money) and neglect their families are just as guilty.

Im finally staring to feel happier and it benefits my children. Her issues remain but those werent going anywhere regardless, at least I wont die all used up and miserable.

[–]Banditjack 37ポイント38ポイント  (33子コメント)

Several Marriage conferences my wife and I have been to have told us the same thing.

Spouse > Child.

Yes, your child is extremely important, but you only invest in them for 2 decades or so. Your spouse will be there (hopefully) for 40, 50 ish years. Not to undermine the child/parent relationship, but once your child moves out you are still married to your spouse.

[–]NYExile 20ポイント21ポイント  (3子コメント)

You choose your spouse not your kids.

[–]Weekend833 21ポイント22ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well..... actually, my wife has stated on firm grounds that if her life is in danger along with one of the kids, my sole job is to save the kid(s).

Kinda a win/win when you look at it, really. Either she lives and I'm gold or she doesn't - in which case I follow her instructions to find new pu... er... a new wife.

[–]CantaloupeCamper 5ポイント6ポイント  (0子コメント)

I did the math here. Checks out.

[–]cant_be_me 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm someone's wife and I've told my husband the same thing. Including the part about new pu...er... a new wife. Because you best believe that if he goes before me, I will hunt up some new co...um...a new husband.

[–]ceejayoz -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your spouse is (in general) free to leave if you're a miserable asshole. Your kids (in general) aren't. I'm not sure why you think it's an either/or sort of situation, either. What sort of "marriage conferences" are we talking about here?

[–]Americonfusion 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Where did he say it was an either/or situation?

[–]JD_T_Wan 36ポイント37ポイント  (7子コメント)

Like anything else, it's all about balance. My wife deserves attention and love. I deserve attention and love. My kids deserve attention and love. The problem with the current mentality is that it's all or nothing. The "parenting religion" ignores the fact that you can love your kids and still give your spouse attention. Simultaneously, you can love your spouse and still give your kids attention.

I don't love my kids more than my wife, and I don't love my wife more than my kids. I simply love my wife and kids. It's two different types of love, but love nonetheless. That's not to say that there isn't a certain amount of sacrifices I'm willing to make for my children (or my wife for that matter), but the fact remains, when my wife and I have a good relationship and are happy, we're better parents.

Relationships take work and effort, whether they're platonic, romantic or parental. The key is to put effort into the relationships that matter most. The idea of "ranking" those you love is pointless at best and destructive at worst.

My 6-year old once asked me if Mommy (my wife) was my favorite girl in the world. I told her that Mommy was my favorite woman in the world, and that she was my favorite little girl in the world. That prompted her to ask, "Does that mean you'll like Mommy more than me when I'm grown up?" I simply responded, "You'll always be my little girl, even when you're a grownup. So you'll always be my favorite little girl."

TL;DR: Love your kids; love your partner.

[–]Aaron215S@HD w/ 3yo, 4yo, & a 6 month old 7ポイント8ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Does that mean you'll like Mommy more than me when I'm grown up?" I simply responded, "You'll always be my little girl, even when you're a grownup. So you'll always be my favorite little girl."

Good answer :-)

[–]Pinkcorazon 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

You nailed it. I'm sick of the argument that basically loving your children is bad for them. You know what's bad? Neglected and abused children. I'm not sorry my husband and I "spoil" our daughter with love and affection. We aren't worried she'll end up entitled, we are confident she'll grow up emotionally healthy and happy. You know what else contributes to her happiness? Her happy family with parents that love eachother and aren't afraid to show it. I rambled. But you made the point. BALANCE.

[–]sqweexv 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I didn't feel like they were saying you shouldn't love your children or that you should flat out tell them they're not as important as your spouse. It's just saying you shouldn't always put your spouses needs after your kids.

But yes, balance is key.

[–]PeeEqualsNP 3ポイント4ポイント  (3子コメント)

when my wife and I have a good relationship and are happy, we're better parents.

I think this is the main point the article is trying to make.

It also means that if your marriage is getting strained with kids (which will happen from time to time) it's important to take the time to work on it with each other and that's easier done without kids (i.e. dates or a kidless getaway weekend). This is kind of unique in that the kids aren't really going to help you here. But if you're relationship with your kids is strained, you could and should seek out the help of your partner. To me, this makes the spousal relationship more vital to the success of the family as a whole, IMO.

[–]sqweexv 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes. It's all about balance. It's like a house. The strength of the marriage the foundation and framework everything else is built off of and is important for keeping everything else stable and supported, but if you were to ONLY focus on maintaining the foundation, the house will still crumble around you.

[–]JD_T_Wan 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

It also means that if your marriage is getting strained with kids (which will happen from time to time) it's important to take the time to work on it with each other and that's easier done without kids (i.e. dates or a kidless getaway weekend). This is kind of unique in that the kids aren't really going to help you here.

Agreed, but I think it's important to avoid the, "it's my wife and me against the kids" mentality. Of course we need time to ourselves as a couple, that's essential to a good marriage. However, though my relationship with my kids and wife are different, they're all still part of the family, a relationship that involves all four of us.

To me, this makes the spousal relationship more vital to the success of the family as a whole, IMO.

I understand what you're saying, but I guess I see the spousal relationship (once you have children) as an essential component of the family relationship, just like the relationship between each parent and child is essential as well. Just like my wife and me being happy helps us be better parents, having a good relationship with our kids has positive effects on our marriage. When you get married and have kids, it's no longer simply a marriage, it's a marriage with kids.

More than anything, I don't see the need to compartmentalize love and separate the importance of marriage versus parenting. Once you decide to have kids, both are equally important. When one suffers the other can too. When one thrives, the other can too. Balance is key, but you have to remain flexible. Sometimes you have to prioritize the kids, sometimes you have to prioritize your marriage.

[–]fragilestories 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

When our second was about four months old and would sleep through the night with only one feeding, we instituted in house dates.

At least twice a month after the kids were put to bed, we'd spend time together. Watch a movie, share a nice take-out meal, play cards, have a few glasses of wine, whatever. The only caveat was no "real life" interruptions - no running off to throw in a load of laundry or catch up on work emails, not until the date was over.

Occasionally the kids would wake up and we'd have to reschedule, but by and large it was a success. Blocking out some time for us to unwind and reconnect was absolutely critical to our marriage, even if we couldn't always get child care or afford to go out.

[–]sqweexv 10ポイント11ポイント  (5子コメント)

When my daughter was born, it was pretty shaky. We had a semi-emergency c-section. Our daughter got stuck pretty bad...30 hours of labor and we finally had to throw in the towel and do the c-section. The c-section did NOT go well. Since our daughters vitals were still looking alright, they had time to give my wife an epidural for the c-section so she could be awake after. It seemed like it was working at first, and we're not 100% sure what happened, but it had ceased working before the started cutting. So my wife had a c-section with virtually no anesthesia. My fingers were turning dark purple with how hard my wife was squeezing my hand. I was making a puddle on the OR floor. I've never seen someone I loved in THAT kind of pain (it made even intense contractions look like fun). The anesthesiologist had a concoction of drugs ready to go, but they were in to far once they realized what was going on and they couldn't use the hard stuff until the baby was out. My wife's heart rate was quite high (understandably) and she was losing a concerning amount of blood. They pull my daughter out, lift her out, and one of them still asks me if I want to cut the cord. I still think back to that very moment sometimes. I pointed at my wife and snapped "just cut it and help her!" We had planned for me to follow them with my daughter, but I didn't even care about the baby at that point. I literally told my wife "I'm staying, I don't care, we can make another baby."

I felt guilty about that moment for a while, but the more I reflect on it, I don't. I love my daughter to death, but with what my wife and I have been through together over the years (been together 11.5 years, married for almost 4 now)...I'm unable to use words to describe it, to be honest.

Obviously, my wife made it, but I found out later they had discreetly readied up a bunch of emergency stuff on standby (have a few friends and friends spouses who work there). It was apparently sketchier than even I realized, for a while. My wife's good health to start with and remarkable ability to heal/recover quickly were helpful. We were even able to avoid a transfusion. She was just stable enough that the doc was ok with waiting and monitoring closely.

Now, we've both found it easy to fall into some of the traps discussed in the article, but we fight against it. We sometimes spend money we probably shouldn't so we can still go and have adventures together, but if I have to work an extra 5-10 years before retiring because I wanted to do fun things with my wife, so be it. We get by. All our bills get paid. Our savings account isn't always as stocked as we'd like, but again, what good is money if we're miserable and we get divorced. I just try to reflect back on that moment in the OR and remember how it felt. It helps put everything into perspective. As much as that whole experience haunts us a little, in a way, I'm grateful I learned that lesson as early as I did without ACTUALLY losing her.

So yes, I strongly believe married couples don't do enough for themselves without the kids. The nights out, the dinners, the nights staying up to late cuddling and talking, the sex, the romantic/affectionate gestures, making each other feel important and loved, that's all important not only for you but for the kid. You may think you're doing everything for your kid, but if you're both distant from each other and miserable, the kids pick up on that and it'll have an impact. ]

That turned into so much more text than I anticipated. haha

[–]Jasepstein 1ポイント2ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thanks for sharing that - had a similar conversation (albeit in a much less stressful scenario) in which I made it clear to my wife that she's my number one concern.

Our family pact is that I look after her first, she looks after the kids first. And while that seems at odds with the article, it works for us. Because she knows that I value her above all, she wants to reciprocate with me, not out of obligation. So then she makes sure to prioritize my needs when I voice them, and I try to speak up when the kids are least impacted.

[–]sqweexv 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey, if it works for you, as long as you're both communicating and happy with the arrangement!

I should clarify that would have a much harder making that choice NOW, but remembering that helps put in to perspective just how important my wife is to me.

"Putting your spouse first" doesn't mean neglecting your kids as some seem to take it. Keeping your marriage strong keeps everything running smooth and makes for better parents. I can tell when my wife and I start drifting a bit...I get crankier...moodier...we both do. Luckily we can both step back and acknowledge that and remind ourselves we need a night out some other adventure.

[–]pieuvre776 0ポイント1ポイント  (1子コメント)

I dunno if you can hear it, but you're getting a slow clap from me.

[–]fragilestories 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

With our first, my wife was in labor for 24 hours then her blood pressure started to spike and the baby went into distress so the OB called for an emergency c-section. I remember before they wheeled my wife off to prep her she said to me that if anything happened tell them to save the baby, and I had basically the same thought you had - "No chance, we can have another baby but I can't be a parent without my wife".

Thank god it never came to that because in retrospect I don't know if she would have forgiven me for making that choice.

[–]dan4daniel 10ポイント11ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a pretty long way of putting the advice my dad gave me, "Hijo, never stop dating your wife."

[–]soyjesus 4ポイント5ポイント  (1子コメント)

Totally agree with this article. Pretty sure my wife would burn me at the stake if I linked it to her.

[–]SomewhereDownInTexas 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's pretty sad. My wife is one who is in the same camp as the article and it just seems like it should be so blatantly obvious the correct way to live a meaningful relationship. Your kids aren't guaranteed to love you forever, after 18 there's a possibility they might not ever want anything to do with you, so to put them before your spouse forever is a huge mistake.

[–]spacenerd04 8ポイント9ポイント  (0子コメント)

I did not realize this was a thing, but that was a well written article. Thanks for posting it!

[–]Aaron215S@HD w/ 3yo, 4yo, & a 6 month old 7ポイント8ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've heard this recently. I saw this article and shook my head and immediately told my wife I'm so happy that I married her.. There was another one about being 50% wife and mother.. but I can't find that right now. Maybe I have the percentage off and it was 49% mother 51% wife? Dunno. Reply if you know what article I'm talking about. It was responding to the one I linked.

Anyway, yeah it's a thing, and I think it's something that people should be talking about before getting married, let alone before having kids. You can see what's happening with empty nesters who have trouble reconnecting. Their kids were their lives and when the kids leave they have to work all over again at learning to love their partner. Just keeping the mindset that my relationship with my wife requires attention and maintenance just as my relationships with my kids does.. it does wonders.

Parenting doesn't have to put marriages on hold. I hope people don't start believing it does.

[–]JD_T_Wan 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wow, as a husband and father, that article was the most depressing thing I've read in some time.

[–]Aaron215S@HD w/ 3yo, 4yo, & a 6 month old 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed. Honestly I wonder how her husband feels. Obviously he's trying to rebuild their relationship, asking her to go to lunch with him etc.. sounds like they didn't really discuss what a marriage was before committing to one.

[–]ADLC12 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this is a very tough concept to grasp. I have an 18 month old daughter and I just love spending time with her and watching her grow. I know I need and should spend more time "dating" and communicating with my wife but it is so hard as I am afraid of taking away focus from my daughter.

[–]deusexlacuna 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really don't know how to feel about this article. I guess my major counterpoint is that do we think that divorce is exclusively an American problem? In my experience, the places that have low divorce rates are as such because divorce just really isn't a part of that culture. It's not like everyone is happy go lucky everywhere else besides America and we have miserable relationships. It seems like everyone across the world has miserable relationships.

[–]dog_eat_dog 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting article, but more importantly:

I'd really like a "Directionless Thirty-something On Board" sticker for my car.

[–]Jasepstein 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you so much for posting this!

[–]Gregthegr3at 8ポイント9ポイント  (6子コメント)

I really don't agree with this. It just seems ... off. And I'm not sure why we care about who we care about loving "more". What does it mean to love someone more?

It just seems like clickbait.

[–]jaredlanny 16ポイント17ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think the implication is that we as parents often put the emotional needs of our children above that of our spouse's - what it leads to is a person who always feels like they are second - which can lead to resentment and broken relationships. contrarily, by putting the emotional needs of our spouse first, instead of being equally damaging to our children, it, in fact, increases the stability of their home, and makes them feel safer and have greater satisfaction in life.

[–]vietbond 4ポイント5ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do agree with this. It's not about who we love more. It's about how we invest every ounce of ourselves into our children while putting pause on the relationship that existed before the child came along and will hopefully be there when they're gone. I love my kids. I would do anything for them. But my wife comes first.

[–]vatechguy3+1 spawnlings 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

They allude to it, but never come out and say it:

If your kid is being an ass, you need to love them enough to come out and say "You're being an ass."

[–]novakane 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, I felt like the article never articulated what it was arguing for or against. I had to come to the comments to understand what the point was.

[–]arjonite -1ポイント0ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's not clickbait. It's saying the same thing I learned in pre-cana (the pre-marriage catholic course). Your marriage is your primary relationship in your life. That's ahead of your relationship with your family, and ahead of your relationship with your kids.

The balance of the article is about talking about your kids as people and not perfect little angels.

[–]iamaiamscat -1ポイント0ポイント  (0子コメント)

Eh sorry but that sounds like religious bs so people won't get divorced.

Your marriage is not more important than your kids. And your kids are not more important than your marriage.

The family you create is the most important entity. It's no longer about yourself, or your kids, it's about all of you together.

Just for shits and giggles I decided to google "catholic divorce sin" and look what comes up first: http://www.catholicsdivorce.com/Is-it-a-sin-to-divorce I'm not sure whether to laugh or be appaled more. Your pre-cana was yet another stupid religious tool to get people "not to sin" instead of teaching WHY something is wrong or should be avoided. Catholic high school really left a bad taste in my mouth if you hadn't noticed.

[–]iamaiamscat 0ポイント1ポイント  (0子コメント)

How about.. the family you created comes first?

It's no longer just about the marriage.. and it's not just about the kids.. it's about your family as a whole.

[–]A166524 -1ポイント0ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've actually read this before very true unfortunately most wives/mothers are incapable of putting husbands in front of kids

[–]Aaron215S@HD w/ 3yo, 4yo, & a 6 month old 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wouldn't say it's just wives/mothers. I'm certain plenty of husbands/fathers do the same thing.

[–]Jasepstein 2ポイント3ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes, definitely a two-way street.

[–]TheMilkSlut -1ポイント0ポイント  (6子コメント)

The only thing I really have to say is that the purpose of the "Baby on Board" signs are not to put children on a pedestal. They are to let paramedics know that there is a child in the vehicle in the event of an accident. Much like the "we have 2 dogs and a cat" sticker on front doors, so that rescue teams know who they are looking for.

[–]Jessie599 7ポイント8ポイント  (1子コメント)

Emt chiming in. I don't look at those and look for a kid, no one I know has. We check for car seats.

[–]onlycatfud 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep, I doubt anybody is going to say:

"Why did you leave my car burning and not go save the baby?"

"Well ma'am we didn't see any baby on board signs so....."

Or the inverse:

"Hey look they have those little family stickers on the back and it shows a baby and a dog, better check this one extra careful under the seats".

EMT's do what EMT's do by the book and policy as safely and thoroughly as possible each time - this is just wishful hindsight justification for being called on the vanity of the thing. The article hits the nail on the head.

[–]DC_CAB[S] 2ポイント3ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you read the article, it says otherwise

[–]doodlelogic 5ポイント6ポイント  (1子コメント)

/u/TheMilkSlut read the article, and is disagreeing with it.

[–]TheMilkSlut 3ポイント4ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's right. There's a link in the article about the creator of the signs. They were just a "hey, don't tailgate me" kind of deal. I was wrong. But I had read a different article about it actually being what I explained. Who knows. But I had always thought they were kind of cheesy until I realized they were good for an accident.

[–]TheMilkSlut 1ポイント2ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting, I had read the opposite in a different article a while back. I'm not sure what it was now, but it had explained it was more of a safety precaution than a fad.