(cache) /r/Catholicism deals with gender like real, responsible, Christian adults. : BadSocialScience

[–]probablyaname 52ポイント53ポイント54ポイント 11時間前 (22子コメント)

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[–]Otiac -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 2時間前 (0子コメント)

it doesn't really change Jesus's whole anti-war stance.

Really? Can you tell me what Christ says about war? I'm going to make the conjecture that everything you know about Christianity/Scripture/what Christ says comes from pop-culture pseudo-isms, and basically nothing about actual knowledge. We'll skip past the parts where Christ;

Tells people to buy swords
Says that His servants would fight to prevent His arrest were the earthly kingdom His kingdom
Literally says He did not come to bring peace, but the sword

What did Christ say...about a lot of things? He didn't really say much about quite a lot. So, what's your point exactly? Christ came to start a Church to be His vicar until His return, which He did, which He intended to guide us in His principles, which it will.

Nobody even said being transgendered is a sin, where did you even come up with that? Oh, I know exactly where you came up with it - you're projecting onto me what you've decided I already think and believe (this asshole hates gays! he hates transgendered people! he thinks they're terrible sinners because of it!) because it makes the narrative in your head that much easier for you to accept instead of actually reading what I'm saying. It is even the Church's position that in the most rare of cases, a sex change operation can be the greater good for a person - in the most rare of cases, not because "I feel this way!" There is something disordered about a sexually male person feeling that they should in fact be sexually female. Except people right now aren't concerned with treatment for the root cause, they're more concerned with how people feel and offenses being taken.

[–]gavinbrindstar 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 3時間前* (0子コメント)

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[–]probablyaname 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)

I wasn't referencing a specific biblical quote and any such thing, I referencing the idea that being humble, or having humility in the eyes of god is seen as a virtue by many Christian faiths and individuals (including my parents and sister), but sure continue to make an ass out of yourself playing the semantic game. Quiet literally everyone else saw what I wrote as what it was because changing the word from 'humility' to 'humbleness' does not fundamentally change the idea put forth by both words. "I have a fantasy thought" means something completely different than "I have a dream", a jackdaw is a completely different species from a crow.

Not only are you bad at A) being a Christian, B) understanding basic human rights like body autonomy, you're bad at analogies. You're just the worst kind of person.

[–]Otiac -4ポイント-3ポイント-2ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

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[–]theansweris41 25ポイント26ポイント27ポイント 10時間前 (20子コメント)

[+]Otiac スコアが基準値未満のコメント-31ポイント-30ポイント-29ポイント 9時間前 (19子コメント)

Except you're legitimately conflating empathy towards their plight to construe letting them do whatever they want regarding their plight and affirming whatever makes them feel better about their plight, instead of getting to the root issues of their plight. That's not what empathy is, that's what someone who is trying to push an agenda wants you to think empathy is.

Would anyone here call Dr.Paul McHugh an un-loving, un-empathatic asshole like every single one of you are going to assign to the users in /r/Catholicism? Remembering that Dr.McHugh agrees with our sentiment, and is a leader in his field in the world? No, probably not. Except when we say the same things he does, apparently, we're just bigoted pricks. You, and everyone else in this argument, wants to construe every person that isn't on your side as hateful, not because its true (because you don't get to tell me how I feel about anyone or anything, that is pretty bigoted and incredibly narrow-minded), but because it so easily furthers your agenda; tumblrinas do the exact same thing with their SJW nonsense.

[–]theansweris41 21ポイント22ポイント23ポイント 9時間前 (15子コメント)

You have absolutely no business dictating what others can and cannot do with their own body. Your desire to rob others of their autonomy is vastly more disturbing than whatever the "root issues of their plight" are. You are in no position to determine what their pursuit of happiness entails, as that is solely theirs to determine. The obvious limits to this are when their endeavor causes real and demonstrable harm to others, but that is never the case with transgender people. The best thing the transphobes can do is point to some vague and undemonstrable damage to society or family structure or some other bullshit. That being said, I really don't care much what Dr. McHugh's views are. You can probably find biologists who hold that the earth is 6000 years old and a variety of other insane views. What I'm more interested in is the consensus, which states that Gender Dysphoria is a real disorder for which the only treatment is physical transformation. But to be honest, even that doesn't matter as much. Medical and psychological findings are not what determine a person's rights, and whatever the literature says, it is up to transgender people to makes the choices in their lives, not to you to choose for them.

[+]Otiac スコアが基準値未満のコメント-20ポイント-19ポイント-18ポイント 8時間前 (14子コメント)

When their endeavor causes real and demonstrable harm to others; when their endeavor impacts others around them, say, letting a male child use a female restroom or locker room at their school? But you're right, that doesn't impact anyone else around them. Or suing business owners to force them to participate in ceremonies against their religious beliefs? That's right; that doesn't impact anyone either. Or giving tax breaks wherein the State has no vested interest in doing so (otherwise, give anyone wishing to adopt a tax break, let me marry my friend who is a single dad with a prenup, and give us a tax break); that's right, it impacts no one.

I don't care what transexual adults do with their bodies. Do. Not. Care. My last Ortho surgeon was a trans female. Did not care. Did not hate him, we did not discuss it, he was a fantastic surgeon. According to this sub, and you, however, I hated him and wanted him dead. I do care when people want to mix that with children under ten years old to be making entirely life-altering decisions when they haven't even hit puberty yet. But what's that? It's not my decision when it doesn't impact me personally? I should have no vested interest in how the society around me is shaped, which impacts how it deals with myself and everyone I know? No. Wrong.

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[–]theansweris41 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 3時間前 (7子コメント)

You did exactly what I expected you would, which is complain about a bunch of arbitrary bullshit to pass it off as "harm". None of your points hold any weight.

letting a male child use a female restroom or locker room at their school?

This complaint is based upon your insistence that transgendered females are males, which they aren't. I really don't see the big deal with someone who doesn't fit your definition of a female using a female bathroom. Geneder-neutral bathrooms would solve this issue altogether.

Or suing business owners to force them to participate in ceremonies against their religious beliefs?

So business owners get to use infrastructure and protection of the law and military, all of which are funded by the public, and then refuse service to certain members of the public? Sorry, that's not how it works.

Or giving tax breaks wherein the State has no vested interest in doing so (otherwise, give anyone wishing to adopt a tax break, let me marry my friend who is a single dad with a prenup, and give us a tax break)

Are we now talking about marriage equality or what? I don't follow what tax breaks have to do with transgendered people.

So far you haven't actually demonstrated any real harm that transgendered people have inflicted upon you or society. Also, if you don't want to seem bigoted, you might begin by referring to people using the correct gender, especially when it involves those who struggle with their gender identity.

[–]Otiac -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 3時間前* (6子コメント)

This complaint is based upon your insistence that transgendered females are males, which they aren't.

Sexually, yeah, they are, a transgendered female is still a male. Even after surgery, still a male. Unless you're going to talk about something akin to de la Chapelle syndrome, this will always remain so. You're confusing, or conflating, my use of the sexual term with the gender term; one is derived from reproductive organs/chromosomes, the other is generally culturally learned. So while a person may be a transgender female...that person is still a 'he', is still male.

Gender-neutral bathrooms would solve this issue altogether.

I wouldn't care about gender neutral bathrooms, but I'm sure it would make a lot of other people uncomfortable.

So far you haven't actually demonstrated any real harm that transgendered people have inflicted upon you or society.

Here's one, that I believe is sort of explicit in the article mentioned. Children younger than ten years old - younger than puberty - are susceptible to all sorts of irrational thoughts. When you make something as real as Gender Identity Disorder (because it's disordered to the natural cause of things..) conflated to be something simply accepted from any and every angle, and encouraging children so young they can't even properly demonstrate sexual desires to have extremely major life-altering processes like a gender flip, it can cause irreparable damage and exacerbate the already real problems people with Gender Dysphoria face, such as anxiety disorders and depression. This is why people like Dr. Paul McHugh do not do sex change operations, even in adults, because such things don't see resolution from their psychological problems post-surgery. This isn't because of society - this is because there's something else at play here. And subjecting kids to this? No thanks.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could, in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved. This person feels this way, and it doesn't directly affect you (!!), so why should you care, huh bigot? Well ok then, I feel like a lady today, and that doesn't affect you or any of the other women in the gym's locker room, so I want to change in there with them today. What do you mean the woman's bathroom doesn't have any urinals? Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today, and since it doesn't affect you or your children, you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

This becomes even more troubling whenever anyone wants to say "this doesn't affect you!" - which is what led me to the examples I gave. Same sex unions don't affect you! But I will sue you to force you to participate in them against your religiously held beliefs because! Transgender people don't affect you! This transgender person just wants you to teach your children that he/she is perfectly normal and not at all disordered (Gender Identity disorder, where there are psychological problems and abnormalities at play to cause a person to feel this way) because feelings!

[–]thatoneguy54 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前* (1子コメント)

Oh my god, you're so very off base it hurts. Mind if I deconstruct everything you've said in your last paragraphs?

When you make something as real as Gender Identity Disorder[1] (because it's disordered to the natural cause of things..

That's not why it's called a disorder. It's called a disorder because it causes real problems in a person's day-to-day life. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "natural cause of things".

encouraging children so young they can't even properly demonstrate sexual desires to have extremely major life-altering processes like a gender flip, it can cause irreparable damage and exacerbate the already real problems people with Gender Dysphoria face

This just tells me you've never met, spoken to, or read anything about a transgender person. Talk to any of them and just about every one of them will tell you that they felt they were the wrong gender since like 4 or 5.

Besides that, gender identity and "sexual desires" have nothing to do with each other. Children identify with genders from very young ages. A young boy will say "I'm a boy" and do things he associates with being a boy. Same with a girl. That argument is useless.

This is why people like Dr. Paul McHugh[2] do not do sex change operations, even in adults, because such things don't see resolution from their psychological problems post-surgery.

That is 100%, unequivocally, demonstrably false and just shows how little you actually know about transgender issues. Living as their identified gender is the only known cure for gender dysphoria. And not every transgender person gets reconstructive surgery. In fact very few do because of costs, risks, etc.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could

No, again, you are completely wrong. You're the one basing this because of feels and not scientific basis. The amount of studies published verifying that transgenderism is a real, verifiable thing and that transitioning is the best course of action is staggering. You're the one who doesn't like the idea and so deny it.

in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved.

That's exactly how many transwomen live their lives, you fucking moron. They live their lives as women and bam, no more dysphoria.

Well ok then, I feel like a lady today

That's not how being transgender works. They don't feel like a lady today. They've felt like a lady for their entire lives.

Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today

Clearly you have no idea what a social construct is. Gender is a social construct, but that doesn't make it any less real. The economy is a social construct as well, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect everyone's lives and is a real thing.

This is probably the thing I hate the most that people say. "It's a social construct, that means it's not real!" No, dipshit, it means it's a thing that was created by society and people. Just like our laws. Or our jobs. Or pretty much everything. Jesus.

you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

You don't need a urinal to use the bathroom. You have one in your house? No, you use the toilet. No problems. Your lawsuit would be thrown out before you could file it. Use whatever bathroom you want, you're the only one who cares.

This becomes even more troubling whenever anyone wants to say "this doesn't affect you!"

It doesn't. Not even a little. No one's forcing you to become transgender.

which is what led me to the examples I gave.

Those were the shittiest examples ever. None of what you said correlated with reality at all or affected anyone in any negative way at all.

Same sex unions don't affect you! But I will sue you to force you to participate in them against your religiously held belief

I'm pretty sure churches don't have to marry same-sex couples. I admit I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's true. So again, it doesn't affect you at all.

This transgender person just wants you to teach your children that he/she is perfectly normal and not at all disordered (Gender Identity disorder, where there are psychological problems and abnormalities at play to cause a person to feel this way) because feelings!

Jesus Christ, no one is saying gender dysphoria isn't a problem (the dysphoria part), but we're saying don't hate someone because of it. Would you relentlessly hate and abuse someone because they have ADD? That's a mental disorder too. What about Alzheimers? Or autism? No, that's a super shitty thing to do. So, if we concede that being transgender is also a mental illness, what's the difference? Why do you harass and care so deeply about them and not any other mental illness?

I'll tell you why: because you're a fucking bigot and a terrible Christian.

Edited formatting and finished the last paragraph.

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[–]KingOfSockPuppetsQueen indoctrinator 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 2時間前 (3子コメント)

You're confusing, or conflating, my use of the sexual term with the gender term; one is derived from reproductive organs/chromosomes, the other is generally culturally learned. So while a person may be a transgender female...that person is still a 'he', is still male.

You're doing the same sort of conflation by misgendering that woman. Even if one is 'always a male' then if you have no problem with transgender adults as you claim you should be using their preferred pronouns since pronouns are part of that 'cultural learning' you mention.

This becomes especially troubling when the vast majority of people want this to become permissible because feelings, and not off of any scientific basis that there could, in fact, be more to this than a person just getting called a lady, putting on some female clothes, and bam, problem solved. This person feels this way, and it doesn't directly affect you (!!), so why should you care, huh bigot? Well ok then, I feel like a lady today, and that doesn't affect you or any of the other women in the gym's locker room, so I want to change in there with them today. What do you mean the woman's bathroom doesn't have any urinals? Gender is just a social construct, and since I feel like a woman today, and since it doesn't affect you or your children, you need to put a urinal in the woman's bathroom or I will sue you to do so, because I demand equal rights.

Most of the science shows that transition drastically improves trans people's lives. I'm not even sure what you mean by 'there could be more to this.' If you are insinuating that trans people have hidden motives or problems (and given your other posts it absolutely seems you are) I would be positively thrilled to learn what you think those are.

Everything about GID

Gender identity disorder is no longer in the DSM. It has been replaced with Gender Dysphoria. So no, you probably shouldn't be teaching your kids that those people are disordered if your basis was on diagnostic names.

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[–]rosconotorigina 2ポイント3ポイント4ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

Bro, your best examples of how trans people harm others are letting someone who is committed to living as a woman piss in a toilet near other women, forcing someone who bakes cakes for a living to get paid to bake a cake, and not letting you pretend to be in love with your buddy to get a tax break (wtf?).

Meanwhile, trans people are getting their asses kicked left right and center, they're getting fucking murdered, they're getting kicked out of their homes, and everyone wants to talk shit about them because they were born different.

Far be it from me to speak for the Divine, but based on what I know about Jesus, I find it really hard to believe that he would have his panties in a wad to the extent that you do over transgender people trying to live their lives as the gender they feel they are inside. What happened to compassion?

[–]thatoneguy54 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 3時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]Otiac -3ポイント-2ポイント-1ポイント 3時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]ArtHousePunk 7ポイント8ポイント9ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)

No reasonable person would accuse a respected psychiatrist of being spiteful simply for advocating for better treatment, even if that treatment goes against current sensibilities. Though it would be nice, and modest of you, to note that McHugh is going against the consensus established by his peers and others studying neuroanatomy. McHugh may be a very noteworthy psychiatrist but his authority is somewhat lessened when so many of his peers are objecting.

There are objections I could raise myself, McHugh's characterization of heterosexual urges as an intrinsic quality of masculinity really underscores the fact that this man received his initial college education in the 1950's. Otherwise his interpretations of answers given by trans women are downright uncharitable, nor is showing favor to autogynephilia as an explanation of gender dysphoria doing him any credit. Much like Blanchard and other proponents of autogynephilia, the existence of FTM persons are completely ignored.

If I wanted to be completely uncharitable, I would suggest a Kuhnian explanation for McHugh's thoughts. McHugh was born in 1931, when he graduated from Harvard Medical the APA still had homosexuality listed in the DSM. McHugh is a hanger-on of the old paradigm, it's what he knows and what he's comfortable with no matter how many anomalies poke holes in his theories. At the end of the day, McHugh is a product of another era and his position shouldn't be taken as indicative of prevailing thought.

While I don't think McHugh's position is particularly well thought-out, I don't doubt his sincerity or his desire to help those people. I do, however, doubt your sincerity and the sincerity of the people at /r/Catholicism. The opinions of people like McHugh aren't presented out of a good-natured desire to present contrary opinions and discuss them, but to grant your own bigotry a pretense of being legitimate and respectable. McHugh may, at the end of the day, be wrong but his sentiments are nothing like yours. I got the impression that McHugh is motivated by a genuine altruism, you guys are just mocking people.

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[–]Meggywen 18ポイント19ポイント20ポイント 9時間前 (0子コメント)

So...in a very small window, I get adults becoming transgender or gay, or whatever. They're adults capable of making their own decisions. But since when is this a thing?...It is trully uncomfortable that society, secular organizations and secular modernist philosophy have a say in a child so much more than a parent. What's next, in the name of "freedom"? If my child wants to punch other children it should be his constitutional right? 'Cause you know, it's like, my opinion bruh...They have parents for a reason, and they should form these kids, not just bend to all they think, want and say. Otherwise, what's the point of a parent...?

Soon kids will decide to be gay, and since you can't just beat it out of them anymore, they'll grow up and be gay since it wasn't their choice at birth to begin with! Damn you fascist modern secular society! Not letting parents have total dominion over their children even to their blatant dentriment! DAMN YOU!!!

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[–]thatoneguy54 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]firedropsReddit's totem is the primal horde 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 3時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]TaylorS1986Evolutionary Psychology proves my bigotry! 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Lethkhar 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 9時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]DisquietThisHeideggerian Statistician 16ポイント17ポイント18ポイント 10時間前* (2子コメント)

[+]Otiac スコアが基準値未満のコメント-20ポイント-19ポイント-18ポイント 10時間前 (1子コメント)

Thanks buddy, we do our best. Because its a religious sub, we get the extreme crazies from both sides of the fence from time to time, mostly though its some pretty hateful atheists/agnostics that post the same spam! By the way, can I call you buddy? I assume I can because you associated me with some sort of quasi prejudicial extreme right-wing group in France for whatever reason. I can only assume this is a compliment, since you would never be a 'hateful bigot' towards someone right? I don't even think I've even talked to you until this moment, so thanks for the understanding towards me everyone else in this thread is apparently decrying about how they view us being towards other people! It's amazing to see everyone here being (what they would call) so loving and charitable to the people on the sub while not at all being hateful and spite-filled themselves.

I have no problem with traditional Catholics, nor does the sub, it becomes a problem when they're sedevacantist/schismatic in their beliefs. As far as I know most of them still post there, some of them left to their own private sub.

[–]foop_plinger 4ポイント5ポイント6ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]TaylorS1986Evolutionary Psychology proves my bigotry! 1ポイント2ポイント3ポイント 4時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Otiac -2ポイント-1ポイント0ポイント 4時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]ChicaneryBear 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 6時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]optimalpath 10ポイント11ポイント12ポイント 8時間前 (0子コメント)

For starters, we should be teaching all children everywhere fundamental principles taught by the Catholic Church. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Masturbation is intrinsically and gravely disordered. Pre-marital sex and divorce are simply not options. Maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain is not the goal of life.

Yup, the best thing we can do for people is dictate everything for them, including what life is about. Because not being obedient to my beliefs is intrinsically and gravely disordered.

The sheer scope of arrogance and self-regard required to think that your personal beliefs ought to override the right of everyone else to have their own values and make their own choices... Imagine if you told this guy that secular values were simply the only options and that he was gravely disordered if he chose his own path? He'd probably want to spit in your face. And yet he wonders why people react so badly when he does exactly that.

[–]bangwhimper 18ポイント19ポイント20ポイント 12時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]superhelical 19ポイント20ポイント21ポイント 11時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]theansweris41 21ポイント22ポイント23ポイント 10時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]EmotionalBoys2002 6ポイント7ポイント8ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]FeedMachine 11ポイント12ポイント13ポイント 10時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Spawnzer 12ポイント13ポイント14ポイント 5時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]SnapshillBot 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 12時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]Buffalo__Buffalo 0ポイント1ポイント2ポイント 32分前 (0子コメント)

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