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Comments on Female Bodybuilder posts (self.bodybuilding)

nlyles1 が 投稿

Hey r/bb! I haven't been as active on here for a couple months but I've still been lurking. Busy with work/school and everything else. Seeing a ton of new usernames and faces on here makes me really happy! I love this sub, it's gotten me through some rough times and have nothing but admiration for it.

However, I feel like we need to have a talk on the comments I've been seeing on Female bodybuilding posts. Specifically the ones talking about competitors attraction. At best they're irrelevant and at worst they're damaging to others.

This is a subreddit for the sport of bodybuilding and bodybuilding conversation. If someone posts a pic and you think they have great delts that's awesome and tell them so. If you think someone could bring up their calves (god I know I do) than tell them. These comments are okay because they are relevant to the sport. However if you see a before and after shot of a girl who started using saying "she looked better before" has no relevancy to the conversation. The only things that are relevant to the sport when judging someone is size, conditioning, proportion, and symmetry. Attractiveness isn't a factor, if it were Steve Cook would win the next 10 Mr Olympias. And personal opinions on what's attractive can be discouraging or damaging for those who see those types of physiques as their goal.

What if you said you wanted to look like Ronnie, and all your out of shape friends and coworkers kept telling you how you looked better before? It's easy to ignore the general public because they don't understand why we do this, but imagine hearing the same thing from where you feel you'd have support, your gym buddies and on here? It would suck. You'd feel like your isolated on an island and no one understands you.

This sub is not just for training plans, nutrition facts and funny posts. It's a support group. It's for like minded people who want to achieve the same thing which is reaching their goals. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten on here having a rough day, and left motivated and ready for the gym. How many times I've wanted to quit but supported to keep going.

We need to support each other on here, male and female alike. And comments on what's attractive, either positive or negative, is irrelevant to this subreddit and bodybuilding as a whole. We're here to get solid, thick, and tight, not to win a beauty pagent. Please keep misplaced and possibly discouraging comments to yourself. Thanks

Quick edit. The topic of feminism and white knighting has been brought up a few times and some people are attempting to pose a strong resistance against the idea of "pussy pass". I'm a complete and total believer in equality. If men are praised, women should be as well. If men are critiqued, women should be as well. But there's a strong difference from constructive criticism, and being an asshole. I believe everyone deserves to be treated with respect until they disrespect you. Insulting women because you feel they have it easy and get pussy passes just makes you an asshole. You're just as bad as the "white knights" you like to call out, just in another way. Stop swinging so combatively to the things you oppose and learn to find moderation which is what you really want. Critque anyone, but do so constructively. Compliment anyone but do so without weirdly objectifying them.

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[–]EqusG2-5 years 341 ポイント342 ポイント  (36子コメント)

A lot of arguing on BB reddit right now over the comments about the attractiveness of the female bodybuilders. That got me thinking about the issue.

I don't think it comes down to 'misogyny' or 'objectification' and a lot of other explanations people have been using. People do comment on the attractiveness of guys all the time too, just not in a sexual way because most men are straight. People always talk about how ugly branch is or how fucking stupid Jeff's hair is or how fucking hot they are for Cook's dick.

At the end of the day I think female and male bodybuilding are fundamentally different and I think that's the real reason those types of comments exist.

Male bodybuilding is male enhancement. You're enhancing natural properties of men to exaggerate them.

Female bodybuilding is ...HRT. You're giving women male properties that they wouldn't otherwise have.

And I think that's where the comments stem from. Sure, people should stick to discussing actual bodybuilding on a bodybuilding subreddit, but I think the reason you see these types of comments from probably mostly younger individuals is because these women end up looking like men and it comes as a system shock to them.

[–]petrograd 112 ポイント113 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well said. Bodybuilding is not a sex neutral sport.

[–]back2ballin 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

what sport is sex neutral? checkers?

[–]giraffebacon 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think most chess tournaments are actually gender segregated lol...

[–]petrograd 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

By neutral, I don't mean both sexes compete against each other.

[–]teckhz 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you mean that it isn't equal for both genders? Because even then most sports fall into this category.

[–]timacles -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would say that all sports are sex neutral except bodybuilding, because bodybuilding is the only sport where appearance has some sort of bearing on the final result.

[–]Bojangles010 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow, good analysis of the issue. I would agree actually. I always like figure more than women's BBing for some reason, and I think you hit the nail on the head.

[–]lEatSand 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The dividing line on natty/geared female bodybuilders is essentially overall aesthetics/muscle size and definition.

[–]acdcfreak< 1 year 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (8子コメント)

as a natty myself, the thought of a woman on gear doesn't attract me at all. I would never voice this opinion though, I actually find women who train infinitely more attractive than those who don't, and a bit of cutting or bulge or veins is fucking hot as fuck too.

But because I myself am not on gear, I don't find the thought of a lady who could be considered more shredded than me very appealing. My thoughts as a natty.

[–]swolemedic 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Your sexual preferences probably aren't effected by gear use. Im on gear and im not attracted to she hulks. Fit is great but not diggin she hulks

[–]acdcfreak< 1 year -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have no idea! Good point, I wouldn't know till I tried, but from where I sit, the thought of a woman more muscular than me doesn't sound or look like something I could be attracted to in any way. I mean... I would feel like the girl in pictures if I was smaller XD

コメントをもっと表示する (2 返事)

    [–]mrpopenfresh 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Which makes it funnier, because you get a bunch of guys complaining about women on the sub and getting super excited about jacked studs.

    [–]hairaware -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Men are supposed to be or more inclined to be muscular. Women are not. Easy to see the difference there

    [–]mrpopenfresh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yeah, but both are on steroids and the name of the game is mass. An aesthetic body body is and aesthetic body on a man or a woman.

    [–]c0rsack_2 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Inb4 "no one cares what you think a woman looks like" comments.

    [–]insanearcane 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    +1, aka, inb4 'oh crap, someone already said that.' comments.

    [–]FritterCritter 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm with this guy.

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]metaljerk5-10 years 114 ポイント115 ポイント  (15子コメント)

      I absolutely agree, however, where are you when people comment on how hot Steve Cooke and Sadik are? Why aren't you saying "Hey - that's not relevant?"

      [–]ImGayerForSteveThanU2-5 years 137 ポイント138 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      I'd like to think Steve cook being hot is relevant...

      [–]SnapSnag 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Redditor for 3 months.

      Ok, I'll buy it.

      [–]usernamemyass01 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      that user name though, it checks out.

      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

        [–]Endyium2-5 years 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (3子コメント)

        Because we all acknowledge and appreciate them for their physiques. However with many of the comments on the women posts are solely about their looks and about how they "would/wouldnt" bang.

        Look at how this sub treats figures like Michelle Lewin. People admire her physique, and then additionally state that they find her attractive.

        But lately the comments have been more like: "ew she looks like a man, not for me. But I'm still mirin".

        The bodybuilding needs to come first. If there is something nice to say after that then say it, and if there isn't then keep it to yourself.

        [–]R-U-0K 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        How come no one calls out all the people saying "jeff's hair is fucking stupid and he has the personality of plain white bread, mirin his physique though?" It's essentially the same thing.

        [–]WW_D 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'd argue that for physique, being hot is more relevant, since it was meant as a "beach body" class.

        [–]UrGoing2LuvMyNuts 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'm pretty sure all the "gay for steve" comments are in jest.

        [–]kathan 102 ポイント103 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Bodybuiling is for looking good. Aesthetics is the goal.
        I don't care about IFBB Men's and Women's bodybuilding divisions. They are fucked up.
        Men killing themselves and women looking like men. This doesn't even look healthy.
        I'm interested in Physique and Figure div. like most sane guys.

        I think what I want. Fuck you and your PC BS.
        However I don't write mean comments on bodybuilding women posts. I just ignore them.

        [–]broken1895-10 years 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Amen brother. If someone gets that discouraged by a comment someone on the internet makes they need to grow the fuck up.

        [–]Hounmlayn 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I have to disgree somewhat.

        I want to clarify that I'm in the same boat as you, but I want to add something.

        Bodybuilding is not purely aesthetics. It is body building. Whether male or female, if you're passionate for body building, you're going to want to get bigger.

        The women who decide to go ifbb pro in the women's division have the same passion for mass that the men do, just their bodies makeup stops that from happening without added testosterone from elsewhere, which in turn creates masculine features. If they could add mass without looking masculine, I'm sure they all would!

        It's all these people saying they're not attracted to them that's the problem. They're not doing it for you. They're doing it for themselves. Many men on this subreddit would be seen as unattractive (too big) to most women. Do they care? I doubt it. They do it for themselves and for the stage. We don't see ourselves saying 'tone it down bro, you're getting too big.'

        Like I said, I'm in bodybuilding for the physique, which mains aesthetics, hence the formal wear parts and the like. But I understand where OP is coming from. There will be women who lurk here who have an underlying passion for mass building. And we should be the group of people who support them, unlike the whole of Facebook and nearly everywhere irl.

        [–]thataintno 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (38子コメント)

        on the shannon courtney thread are 3 posts that got downvoted and the rest are white knights. I dont know why everybody pulls out the inb4. whats wrong with stating your opinion.

        we often have posts and then saying it doesnt look aesthetic. like veins on abs or some other stuff. whats wrong with saying a girl that huge isnt aesthetic

        [–]doctorblackisin2-5 years 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (16子コメント)

        Actually interestingly enough here's the breakdown:

        1) -24 for a tranny comment

        2) -14 for sarcastic natty comment

        3) -10 for facesitting

        4) -7 for WK comment

        5) -6 for "would smash"

        So a pretty fair mix.

        [–]ChildOfTheLostTribes 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I'm the one that said I would smash (seriously). In all seriousness, am (was?) I outta pocket? And I too agree, miss me with that PC bs. This is the internet; I never go out my way to offend someone.

        [–]doctorblackisin2-5 years 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Don't worry, wouldsmash as well.

        [–]KNueve83 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I'd like to see any of you surpass MY downvote count.

        [–]RageLife 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I'd like to see what the comment said before the edit.

        [–]Psotnik -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Wow, that's impressive.

        [–]thataintno -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        seems like the usual trolls

        [–]magixet 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (15子コメント)

        Because people, in a bodybuilding sub, are criticising bodybuilders for being bodybuilders based on criteria that have nothing to do with bodybuilding.

        [–]thataintno 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (14子コメント)

        you mean looking good or bad isnt a criteria for someone to comment? I dont see anything wrong with saying these mass monster chicks are looking terrible

        [–]timberwolfe 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (13子コメント)

        There's nothing wrong with it. Just like there's nothing wrong with saying it about the male mass monsters, as is also done frequently here.

        [–]ucbiker 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (12子コメント)

        Except there is. This is the bodybuilding subreddit, not the sexy bodies subreddit.

        Bodybuilding is specifically defined for purposes of this subreddit as the sport that involves preparing yourself for a competition

        If pictures of female bodybuilders were being posted on a subreddit about sexiness than I would say the meanspirited comments were appropriate, if dickish but this isn't one of those subreddits.

        [–]timberwolfe 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (11子コメント)

        No, there is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion unless this sub goes full on thought police mode and starts banning me for doing so. If it is disrespectful, it can just be downvoted. And that tends to be what happens anyway.

        Edit: How about comments like "I'd go gay for Steve Cook". Clearly a comment on attractiveness, no? Should that also be not allowed?

        [–]ucbiker -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (10子コメント)

        Say whatever you want. Why is it thought police if I say you shouldn't be talking shit about bodybuilders on a bodybuilding subreddit but it's not "thought police" for you to tell me not to say anything about it? See how all this "censorship!!!" stuff can just be thrown back and forth?

        And here's the thing, no one's saying what is and what isn't allowed. No one's suggesting censorhip. Although actually I think those rules help things stay on topic. For example, in /r/malefashionadvice it's against the rules to talk about losing weight because it's a sub about clothes, not weightloss.

        Basically, it comes down to us "thought police" just asking, why not be decent? Really ask yourself, why do you need to let people know female bodybuilders aren't sexy? Why do you need to insult female bodybuilders? Like /u/nlyles1 said, it's irrelevant at best, hurtful at worst. There's plenty of female competitors on this subreddit and I'm sure they're big girls but why is even running the risk of making one of them feel bad worth the world knowing that you wouldn't bone her?

        So yeah, do whatever you want, no one's saying it's against the rules. But maybe there should be some dialogue and maybe it's okay for people to be challenged.

        [–]timberwolfe 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Why is it thought police if I say you shouldn't be talking shit about bodybuilders on a bodybuilding subreddit but it's not "thought police" for you to tell me not to say anything about it?

        I never told anyone not to say anything. We're having a discussion here, and one that clearly needs to be had. But there are plenty of people in this thread suggesting handing out bans for this sort of thing, and that's horseshit. I am referencing censorship because I fear what may happen, not because I disagree with what others are saying.

        And here's the thing, no one's saying what is and what isn't allowed. No one's suggesting censorhip. Although actually I think those rules help things stay on topic.

        So, you are suggesting censorship...

        For example, in /r/malefashionadvice it's against the rules to talk about losing weight because it's a sub about clothes, not weightloss.

        It may be, but I've absolutely seen it said there often that clothing will fit you better and look better on you if you are fit. Which is true, and needs to be said.

        Why do you need to insult female bodybuilders?

        I don't and I haven't. I downvoted those who did. I upvoted those who commented on aesthetics. Why do you have it in your head that I want to be an asshole?

        Like /u/nlyles1 said, it's irrelevant at best, hurtful at worst.

        I fail to see how it's irrelevant, honestly. Bodybuilding is rooted in vanity. Male or female, big or small, we judge each other over minutiae, even genetics we cannot change. If a woman has chemically become a man, and the ones being posted have done just that, it really shouldn't be an abrasive opinion to say something along the lines of "from a bodybuilding perspective, she looks great, but this is the kind of physique I aspire to, not the kind of physique I admire on a female". Men and women are different. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging this.

        [–]ucbiker 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I know we're having a discussion, I don't know why you're taking what I said as insulting. As well, I'm not suggesting censorship for this sub because I don't think it's a big problem on /r/bodybuilding but I don't think that rules are this big boogeyman. We're not here to argue about /r/mfa but for example, "lose some weight and you'll look better" is completely correct and should be said but in the proper forum. It's off topic for /r/mfa because they're there to help you with your clothes and just your clothes. Yes, one would look better losing weight but you can also tell someone to get their shirt tailored. Both are good advice, one is on topic and one is off topic. As well, whether you want to have sex with somebody is offtopic for bodybuilding.

        Now, I'll admit that I was using a hypothetical "you" not accusing you specifically and that can be misconstrued, but I think we're arguing past each other. You are not doing the thing I am against, and I don't think I'm doing the thing you're against.

        For the sake of argument, personal attraction is irrelevant because that is not one of the criteria judged upon in the sport of bodybuilding. What you said isn't really bad, but it's not what I was against. I'm against shit like "she was way hotter before". Like even if I agreed, and I did, it's not fucking relevant. Now say something like "I think bodybuilding should move away from mass monsters like this", while that's a pretty cliche opinion it is also on topic.

        [–]timberwolfe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Now, I'll admit that I was using a hypothetical "you" not accusing you specifically and that can be misconstrued, but I think we're arguing past each other. You are not doing the thing I am against, and I don't think I'm doing the thing you're against.

        I think I can agree with you here. I think our opinions on this matter as a whole are different, but in disagreeing, we are clearly picturing comments that represent the worst end of each side of the spectrum. Those being censorship and bans versus sexualization and disrespect.

        What you said isn't really bad, but it's not what I was against. I'm against shit like "she was way hotter before". Like even if I agreed, and I did, it's not fucking relevant. Now say something like "I think bodybuilding should move away from mass monsters like this", while that's a pretty cliche opinion it is also on topic.

        I'm also with you here, in that any comment made is a statement on which a person can be judged. If I'm looking at a picture of a male pro with a distended gut, a comment like " what a fuckin roid monkey" is gonna get my downvote, while "shame about his abdomen, I really can't get past these guts, it just ruins the physique for me" is going to get my upvote. Now, if I were the subject of the picture, this could still be an offensive statement to me. But it's a valid opinion and wasn't presented in a malicious manner. I think part of the reason comments are more sexualized about women is that most of us are hetero males. Doesn't make it ok to be an asshole, but it does at least explain the perspective from which a physique will be judged

        [–]nlyles1[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

        Fucking thank you. I eventually just stopped having to reply to people. They're whole arguement is that they have the right to be a dick and that people should have thicker skin. Or how about you just be a decent person and respect each other? God thanks man, I thought I was going crazy after a while.

        [–]PedroIsWatchingBodybuilding -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        No, you stopped replying to people because your shitty rationalizations and attempts at tone-policing kept getting BTFO at every turn. Get out of here with your PC bullshit.

        [–]nlyles1[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        See, that's what I talking about. Your attitude is fucking toxic. But I guess you can continue to argue for your right to be an asshole. I'll get out of here when my post isn't the top post on the page.

        コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

          [–]Jesus_H_Hitler 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

          whats wrong with stating your opinion.

          Seriously. Some people are dicks and their opinions are dickish. If you don't like it just ignore them.

          Let's not censor people and turn this into some PC bullshit.

          [–]ucbiker 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          On the other hand, what's wrong with telling people who are dicks that they're being dicks? If you don't like being told you're a dick then just ignore it.

          [–]Jesus_H_Hitler 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Nothing's wrong with that. I totally support that. I didn't say anything about not calling people out. I said this sub shouldn't censor what people can and can't say because it might "hurt other people's feelings."

          [–]JohnCoffee235-10 years -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I agree, people pull this SJW shit because it gives them justice boners. It's one of reddits favorite things to do, When they don't get their way then they wanna censor every thing you say, it's ridiculous.

          [–]nlyles1[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          And one of reddits favorite thing is the anti SJW boner. I didn't ask for any special treatment for women, just asked that we all not be dicks to each other. As soon as someone labels it SJW I'm downvoted into oblivion. It's like people refuse to think more than 2 seconds about an issue if it conflicts with their previous assumptions Just label it something everyone hates and watch it crumble.

          [–]RockTurgidson 54 ポイント55 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          No, this is dumb.

          It's an extremely common opinion in Internet bodybuilding circles that mass can be taken "too far". I see posts about palumboism, waists that are too large, huge guts, overly large muscles that are out of proportion, etc. all the time. If the sport of bodybuilding were truly about just building the most absolutely massive body possible, you'd just see hunks of distended mass trotting out on stage and cleaning up.

          But there's a reason people yearn for the Arnold and Reeves look: the aesthetic appeal of wide shoulders and a small, tight core on a man is undeniable. We critique and break down the physiques of men here all the time with varying degrees of politeness. Why are people hopping out of the woodwork to vociferously defend these women from the same discussion?

          It's utterly bizarre to me. There was a post on here recently about Ronnie Coleman having a gut so big he looked pregnant and the comments were full of people yukking it up, but that one guy starts spamming unappealing-looking female bodybuilders (with the before/after specifically designed to elicit a negative reaction to the masculinizing effects of testosterone) and we all have to hold our tongues.

          Remember, again, that bodybuilding was never about sheer mass. It was about building an aesthetic physique that enhanced and brought out the masculinity of the male physique through muscular hypertrophy. Similarly, the most popular kinds of female bodybuilding do the same, but focus on those aspects of the human body that are seen as most appealing in women.

          I don't wish these women any ill. I don't think they're bad people, nor do I think they're "trannies" or "shemen". But it can't be denied that to most, the mixture of masculine traits with feminine ones can be kind of strange and off-putting. Think Uncanny Valley type stuff.

          [–]PEEETREEEe1-2 years 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Exactly. We all lol'd at Ronnie holding a literal vacuum but god forbid we don't defend the female bodybuilder with similar extreme characteristics.

          [–]HighRisk26 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Thank you this really needed to be said. Not everyone lifts to get laid.

          [–]AR-47 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          There's discussion about how men take bodybuilding too far too. Big Lenny is just one guy that comes to mind. It's also a pretty well-accepted fact here that there are different goals for different people. Mass monsters, both male and female, are generally not considered attractive. Lots of people in this community prefer competing for physique instead.

          [–]troythegainsgoblin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Big Lenny took it just far enough you mean. Dem goblin eyes

          [–]TronAce 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I'd argue judging the aesthetic appeal of a physique is fair. Bodybuilding was meant to be an art. I'd call modern male & female bodybuilders disgusting (with the exception of McMillan, Rhoden, and the women's physique/figure/bikini category). Classic physiques were beautiful works of art. Women looked strong and feminine. Men had the perfect balance of proportions.

          Bodybuilding is a subjective sport. Voicing an opinion is fair as long as it's judging from an artistic standpoint and not a sexual one.

          [–]kingmike9879 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (11子コメント)

          People look at males and say ewww hes too big etc and we defend them. Could we grant the same decency to women? Were all freaks in this sports regardless of mlae or female

          [–]Swarlsonegger 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          we defend them

          We do? I don't know about you but all I say to people who argue "ugh that's too much would not fuck" - "well that's your opinion and idgaf". I perfectly understand people saying that.

          [–]morris1022 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I agree it's not relevant to the sport and therefore irrelevant too this sub, but i don't think women are the only ones who are subjected to it

          [–]7_legged_spider10-20 years 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          How about you go fuck yourself, let people write what they want to write, and let voting decide the visibility of those posts--you know--the entire FUCKING concept of reddit?

          [–]c41ne 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (10子コメント)

          How exactly do you think it is for men?

          If you actually spent any time here, you'd see men shit on each other just as much. Pros, amateurs, some kid posting asking for a critique. People are shitty, either get over it or I'd recommend leaving the internet.

          How much work anyone actually puts in is irrelevant, that has no bearing on whether they have the ability to comment on something or not.

          [–]MittRomneysCampaign 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          How exactly do you think it is for men?

          "I benched 225 today after 18 months of training!"

          "wow, I benched 225 after 10 months of training. OP do you even lift?"

          [–]c41ne 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I didn't word what I said very well, this is more the point I was trying to make.

          For men it isn't about general attractiveness typically. It just happens it is with women. If demeaning is demeaning, then we can all bask in the self-hatred together.

          [–]ieGod 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          I think the difference is we shit on physique, not attractiveness. Relevant, I think.

          Edit: Imagine if the ratio of male:female posters was reversed, and many females kept spouting "ewww would never sleep with that". You'd feel like shit.

          [–]c41ne -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Why would you feel like shit? Are you doing this for you, or everyone else? If your self worth is tied into how you're viewed by others, the open forum isn't your main problem.

          [–]ieGod 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          In general I'd agree, but we're a community of bodybuilders, specifically. When we rag on each other, the people you'd think you'd find the most supportive and understanding, then it's natural to do a double take and question what's up.

          [–]sweatynut 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Yup, manlets get shitted on.

          [–]p_arani 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (3子コメント)

          I think in a male dominated subreddit we should recognize how shitty it is for us and instead of then continuing the cycle and shitting on women we should suck it up and congratulate people for pursuing something they are passionate about.

          [–]c41ne -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          But you realize that's never going to happen, right? This is all wasted breath, or keystrokes, as it were.

          [–]p_arani 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I can be positive and you can be positive. Thats 2 people. Throw in /u/ASD_Sinfonian and thats 3 people... so on and so forth.

          I think that we belittle our effects on those around us.

          Think of when someone opens a door for you and its completely unexpected, or when you need a quarter for your parking and someone random gives you one. Butterfly effect.

          Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5-2-jD-42Q

          ... but thats just me.

          [–]c41ne -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I don't disagree, but this post isn't going to change that. It isn't hard to be nice or just keep your mouth shut, but this isn't the real world. This a forum, on the internet. It will always be far more polarized than anything in person.

          [–]dogmanx88 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Planet fitness bashing,borderline fat hate,general toolery-thats ok.

          Telling some random chick here "hey,have you been bulking?"-fucking blasphemy!

          [–]vagina_fang 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          You can't tell people what opinion to have. A lot of people think body building is just lifting weights, while a lot think you can't do it without copious amounts of drugs. Increasing your testosterone levels will always be a masculine thing. Because they are male hormones. If people don't like females turning into males that is their choice.

          You can't dictate how they are judged.

          Whether you think it's progressive or not, the fact is females can lift weights. But when they basically change their sex through drugs - some people don't see that as body building.

          [–]UrGoing2LuvMyNuts 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I think a good addendum would be:

          Don't criticize female competitors because you feel they have it "too easy".

          Yes, I do think the female side of this sport, especially in lighter divisions, is still a bit up and coming, but some of the comments are ridiculous. Bikini/fitness competitors are not "naturally skinny girl + fake tits = fitness competitor" (someone actually said that a few days ago on /r/steroids).

          You guys should take a page from rich piana's book and realize that all strength athletes, regardless of dispcipline, still put in retarded amounts of work. Their choice of category is irrelevant.

          [–]TheAmazingSasha 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Wait a minute.. Rich Piana has a fucking book?

          [–]based_clinton 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          So fucking sensitive. They're grown women, they can handle mean comments, they're not four year olds. That said, it still shows insecurity when people are insulting others online.

          [–]morris1022 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

          Didn't this conversation happen like 40 times across 4 different posts and the dd thread?

          [–]p_arani 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

          Totally did. Doesn't make it less important.

          [–]morris1022 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Look I'm not knocking the importance of that conversation or the way you op concisely worded it. I'm just saying this conversation already happened and op really didn't say anything new. We're just beating a dead horse.

          Edit: accidentally hit submit after typing consistently instead of concisely

          Edit 2: didn't realize this guy wasn't op

          [–]JupeJupeSound 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          You are absolutely right. The sad thing is that this behavior is typical when women are introduced to any scene. Comic books, woodworking, motorsports et cetera.

          Everyone has to be held to the same standards. In the case of bodybuilding, that standard is aesthetics, ie, how good people look. That means that we are going to be talking about how good people look, and judging them. That's the whole fucking sport.

          But if there is an agenda to control what people are allowed to do just for the sake of the emotional attachments of the females, don't you think we should be taking into account the feelings of all genders? Like there aren't tranny bodybuilders.

          But to OP all that matters is gyno-centricism. Someone's feelings are hurt and apparently that is everyone else' responsibility to resolve, even though it isn't.

          [–]foodiste 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Young men often place more value in what is sexually attractive (to them) than... Well an endless list of things.

          It's no surprise to me, as a dude, that a lot of guys on here cant get over this. They see the qualities of what they find attractive as much more important than other things about someone's appearance or physique. The whole mindset rests on the assumption that being sexually attractive(to them) should always be the most valuable thing about someone's appearance. "She shouldn't of done that to her build, she looked better before" and It's usually coupled with a lack of understanding as to why someone would not take his standard for attractiveness into consideration: "Why did she do that to herself?"

          I think your post is really needed here on r/bodybuilding. I hope it's something of a wake up call.

          [–]doctorblackisin2-5 years 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

          I posted one of those photos yesterday (the first Shannon Courtney one). I acknowledge that I am an outlier and she falls in my range of what I consider attractive, and I know that for many here they would prefer smaller women only. But I was hoping that people would appreciate the work put in to get to that level.

          [–]ill_gotten_gains2-5 years 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          This is just a half-baked comment but bear with me:

          I agree with the "good" side insofar as I think it's shitty that female bodybuilders are treated like freaks in the general public, and are denied refuge when they are also treated like freaks on bodybuilding forums like this.

          However, bodybuilding is probably the most shallow and objectifying sport there is. That's not a knock on bb'ing, that's just the nature of the sport.

          Bodybuilding started out as a path to the perfect physique. When a bodybuilder steps onstage, they are subjecting themselves to complete objectification, they are taken entirely at face value. You are either aesthetically pleasing or not, and given a placing on that metric alone.

          There's no problem when someone points out that someone has poor muscle insertions or did a poor job conditioning for a contest. How many threads are there titled "Post a pic of the worst insertions you can find"? There was another thread with a Bikini competitor and one of the comments was "She looks way too hard/conditioned for Bikini". It wasn't an attack on her gender, it wasn't shaming her for working out, it was just a judgement of her physique.

          That's how I see a lot of these comments towards female bodybuilders. Looking at a woman with such exaggerated and overt masculine features is not exactly pleasing to the eyes. Surely just from a physique standpoint, we can see that their musculature is well-developed, symmetrical and proportional, but many may still find them to be a jarring sight. After all, they are injecting a ton of testosterone into their system and essentially emulating a different gender.

          We're here to get solid, thick, and tight, not to win a beauty pagent

          Bodybuilding is a beauty pageant.

          [–]troythetoyboyActive Competitor 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Well said!

          [–]U5efull 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I generally cringe at some of the comments when I see a female bodybuilder on here. I can't imagine how much harder it is to get that conditioned and that muscular and have a body that fights it more than mine does. Women who body build are some of the most driven people I've met in my life.

          [–]U30115-10 years 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          The way I see it is treat people as you would like to be treated. There's a large gap between traditional white-knighting AKA being a creeper and being respectful of women. I may be in the minority, but I'm just happy that people take care of themselves and try to look better without going OTT like IFBB.

          [–]Firstborn10 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I couldn't agree more. It's extremely discouraging seeing all the female bodybuilders whose pictures are posted here getting called unattractive. There's no doubt this is a male dominated sport, but there's no reason in the world women can't do the same, and especially no reason to be called unattractive in one of the few subreddits where bodybuilding is encouraged.

          [–]queefatronBikini 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

          YES. Thank you for putting this out there. If I were to go on some guys progress post on here and said "hey from a bodybuilding standpoint you look great but I'd rather fuck you in the before picture" or "good job but that face is just not doing it for me" or "why would you want to get that big it just doesn't make sense", I'd get downvoted to fucking hell. These comments are CLEARLY things you guys deal with amongst friends and family so why be hypocrites towards women who lift just because they go past what YOU approve of? I don't get most of the men on this sub, they only have a small window of what they like and unfortunately what they like holds a strong voice. I see guys shit and bash on bikini competitors cause it's a joke class, then you guys shit and bash on female bb competitors cause it's too huge and "why would any girl do that" leaving the window of approval to only figure and physique/DLB competitors. You guys are so open to give constructive criticism and support for guys of any size who posts their progress, but it's completely different for females. Don't be a hypocrite.

          [–]AWAREWOLF695-10 years 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          To be fair the same type of rhetoric is directed towards unusually large or oddly proportioned guys.

          Branch Warren for instance gets shit on a lot for having a very unappealing aesthetic.

          This isn't necessarily being an asshole though. The negative comments towards male and female bodybuilders alike are often qualified with some variation of respect or admiration for their hard work

          [–]bpeu1-2 years 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          what? i see comments all the time saying men look impressive but they would never want to look like that and comments on old pictures of kai/ronnie/phil or whoever saying the looked better before they completely left humanity behind

          edit: and dont call it hypocrisy, its not the same thing. if there was a male class that was about flaunting your ass or trying to like the other gender i have no doubt people here would bash on it

          [–]dfmtr 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          physique/DLB competitors

          TIL DLB is now a category. Cool.

          [–]julaincasablanco 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I don't think it's hypocritical to say that Bikini is an iffy class and Women's Bodybuilding is unappealing.

          I do agree with you in that it seems like women just can't win in the sport. Sucks, but what are you gonna do? Change Bikini so that it's not a contest of who flaunts their ass the best and gives the judges a boner?

          [–]pessimistic-asshat 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Bodybuilding is a hobby/activity based purely on vanity, being attractive for some is the primary goal. Discussion about what physique you find attractive or not attractive seems like it's extremely appropriate for this sub.

          [–]1029384751574839201 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          You're right. But people aren't doing that and then stopping there. It's the comments like "I wouldn't date her.", "tranny", "clit dick"... shit like that is not constructive. It doesn't matter if you would have sex with her or not. If you want to talk about her physique, then judge her on that. Say that her shoulders are disproportionate compared to the rest of her. That's fine. That's cool. But if you're going to say "she's a man and can get an erection and so I wouldn't even know what to do with my penis if I had the chance to fuck her butt", isn't a critique on her physique. Do you understand the difference? I can't even believe the amount of guys here who can't wrap their minds around the difference...

          [–]pessimistic-asshat -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          It doesn't matter if you would have sex with her or not.

          It may not for you but for some people it does. I'm not saying their right but people should be able discuss bodybuilding however they want. Mass monster posts are always filled with drug abuse/side effect jokes whether male or female. If you don't feel it contributes or is offensive you downvote and move on. Most of the comments I saw that were hateful were downvoted heavily and the real conversation got pushed towards the top.

          [–]Slipdickgreg 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I saw that before and after picture and my only thought was wow well done

          [–]LadyJaneKillington 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Love this. I'm really glad to see so many guys stepping up and saying "this is bullshit" in regards to the kind of comments on these posts. While I don't train as a bodybuilder (though I admire the hell out of y'all) I can't tell you how obnoxious it is to a.) not be taken seriously when I lift heavy and b.) to be told "well, you don't wanna get too big." We get it constantly from our own peers---although more women are embracing weight lifting there's still a very vocal "you'll get too bulky" mindset. So you turn to guys who lift, and suddenly its "yeah well, if you get too big no one will wanna fuck you" as if that's the be-all, end-all reason a woman lifts weights. There's no support, it's isolating and it does nothing to help further motivation.

          [–]Iron-willing 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

          Looks like the SJW's have invaded r/bodybuilding. The distinct emphasis on "don't express your opinion because I disagree with it" is unmistakable.

          SJW's went so far left they came out on the other end of the spectrum; they promote censorship of opinions they don't agree with in the name of "equality".

          [–]thebillstone 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          God, these misogynists on r/bodybuilding are one post away from raping a woman.

          [–]ProbablyShouldWork2-5 years 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Listen, we're in the current era of bottle-shaped bodybuilders because people don't voice opinions of what they find aesthetic and attractive. You're trying to make it seem like bodybuilding is just about who has the best physique when in reality its about politics, who can sell the sport, who's more attractive, etc.

          Don't believe me? Look how Rami consistently places, see what women win the bikini class without bolt ons...

          [–]sweetleef 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          This is like people who go around showing off their tattoos, trying to provoke compliments, but then get pissed off and shout "I don't care what you think, I get tattoos only for myself!" when they hear criticism. Can't have it both ways.

          If you change your appearance and go out of your way to show it off, you have to expect people will react to that appearance, and they won't always agree with you.

          [–]sendnudesplz69 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Bodybuilding, actually, was originally intended to be the pursuit of an all-around aesthetic human form. Look at the various Ancient Greek (probably one of the biggest influences on the creation of bodybuilding) statues meant to interpret the perfect human form; they're thick, solid, tight and retain key aspects of masculinity and femininity. These female mass monsters, though possessing awe-inspiring amounts of muscle, have lost any sort of aesthetic (to an extent males as well but that's another topic) or feminine appeal and have simply become less impressive male bodybuilders at the cost of their sexual and physical health...that's why many people are disgusted by them and choose to voice their opinion on a forum meant for voicing your opinion.

          [–]rate_reducer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Why can't we accept the fact that there are different perceptions of aesthetics? This is why there are different divisions from bikini to physique to bodybuilding. Compare the treatment someone like Ronnie gets vs the female mass monsters and it's really quite hypocritical. Neither would look sexually attractive to the vast majority of the population, but it's the female bodybuilder that will get way more shit. We should just let them do their thing and respect their commitment. When you want sexually attractive chicks...well women's physique and bikini aren't going anywhere

          [–]PassionVoid 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

          And personal opinions on what's attractive can be discouraging or damaging for those who see those types of physiques as their goal.

          Playing Devil's advocate, if someone sees these types of physiques as their goal, yet still cares that people consider them attractive, wouldn't it be best for them to see these honest reactions and decide for themselves what's more important, rather than them getting to that size and all of a sudden wishing they hadn't because no one finds them attractive?

          [–]cziBikini 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          This isn't even relevant. This sub is about bodybuilding and we should encourage the sport.

          [–]PassionVoid -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Just commenting on something OP said, which he felt was relevant. Again, playing Devil's advocate, just because someone has an interest in bodybuilding doesn't mean we should hide the reality of perceptions to them. They should be aware of this, and make the decision based on as much knowledge as possible.

          [–]rate_reducer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          I don't think any of them get to that size and then regret it. It is their true goal and something they feel they need. But I can imagine that it is certainly hurtful getting rude comments and looks every day for pursuing their goal physique. Sure, to a degree they have to toughen up, but on the other hand it would be nice if other people just let them do their thing without being nasty.

          [–]PassionVoid -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          I was thinking it would be more relevant to the people who hadn't gotten to that size yet. I think it makes sense for people to know the consequences of their actions (just like we encourage with hopping on gear) before they make them and they can decide for themselves if it's worth it. This is true for guys looking to become Ronnie-status as well.

          [–]rate_reducer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I suppose so, but it's such a gradual and arduous process that I'm sure they get negative comments well before they even hit the size of a women's physique competitor. By the time they commit to serious androgens, I'm sure they must know what they're in for.

          [–]ConstrictingJeans 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Ugh, this thread is awful.

          Thanks for making a solid post, OP. And thanks for sticking to your guns even while you get absolutely mobbed in the comments. Sorry that reddit hates equality and common decency if it has to apply to women, too.

          [–]mysubredditsthatsall 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I would say those comments are in place as much as guts conversations are for men. We need to talk about this. This sport is subjective and while the judges are those who lead the opinion, in a way all of us shape the future to come. I don't like modern mass monsters, I like aesthetics more. Classic BBing, Ahnold bla blah.... I prefer Flex to Dorian, Shawn to Ronnie, Haney to... oh wait. Exactly what I mean. I don't like hardcore female bodybuilders, sorry. I don't even care if it is good for the sport. I don't think it is good for anything period.

          [–]Blanco14 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I don't like the look of super lean mass monsters or manly women but I keep comments to myself regarding both of them because if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. This rule can be applied to the internet.

          Most people don't like swole ass females.. Also people love to express their hatred for something..

          If you don't like dealing with idiots and douchebags I'd suggest leaving the internet.

          [–]zoso471 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          You're right and that's the issue with bodybuilding. Bodybuilding is all about size and mass and that's not always a good thing - for girls and guys. It's simply been about how big can you get and what can you take to get bigger. I'm extremely happy to see the physique and aesthetics movement progressing and catching wind like it has - I truly believe that it is the future of bodybuilding and we'll look back in 50 years and cringe at what pro bodybuilders today looked like.

          [–]Damn_sun -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          bodybuilding is about asthetics. .including facial....the reverse would be true if the likes of Jay cutler looked like Anna kornicova (yes I'm old)..

          [–]bangbangahah 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          ehh fuck off

          [–]thick1988 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          So, were talking about giant roid chicks right? Because michelle lewin, paige hathaway, etc are 10/10

          [–]huskers37 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          K.

          [–]real-boethius 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Insulting women because you feel they have it easy and get pussy passes just makes you an asshole.

          The trouble is that, often - very often - constructive criticism is interpreted as being an asshole. Harsh truths are ruled out.

          For whatever reason "you have to watch what you say to women". This means that when women show up in a forum in numbers, you suddenly get a lot of tone policing, anti-"harassment" policies, etc.

          Example from OP

          Compliment anyone but do so without weirdly objectifying them.

          WTF does this even mean? People are people, they are also objects (eg if a person hits you at 1000mph all that matters is their mass which is a property of an object).

          [–]p_arani -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Thank you /u/nlyles1 for capturing the positive sentiment of this sub. If we were talking football and a player came back during an offseason with 10 lb of muscle that helped them be a better player, no one would say, "he looked better before. He shouldn't have improved his body to be a better football player."

          I know I am a newbie at being active in this subreddit, but lets be a positive and supportive subreddit.

          [–]ShaolinShade -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          I think that the reaction recent female bodybuilder posts have been receiving on here might have less to do with personal opinions on attractiveness and more to do with people not approving of totally fucking up your hormones. People like shannon clearly aren't natty. That's not to say that they haven't accomplished something hugely impressive, just that they've distorted their bodies natural form in the process and that can definitely be bad for your health. It seems like we have two categories of bodybuilders here - those who are concerned with the love of the sport itself, and those who do it for the love of their bodies.

          Edit:

          To clarify my own opinion on the subject: gear isn't my thing, personally. But i'm not going to judge someone else for using it either - whether they're male or female. And whether you're attracted to someone is your own business; shouldn't be the subject of the conversation we have going on in this subreddit.

          [–]BlackLeatherRain 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          more to do with people not approving of totally fucking up your hormones.

          If the natty police aren't supported here, "hormone police" can't be, either.

          [–]Jag28Active Competitor 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I don't think that's correct at all, since people don't disparage the vast majority of IFBB and NPC competitors for fucking up their hormones. In fact, /r/bodybuilding is generally very receptive and supportive of gear use.

          [–]broken1895-10 years -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Guys it's okay to jump on Steve's dick but don't make any comments about women you find attractive. /s

          [–]DavidJFarrarBodybuilding -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          TL:DR? Can I still say whatever the fuck I want?

          [–]nlyles1[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Yup, still doesn't mean you're not a dick though.

          [–]usernamemyass01 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          If you don't want peoples opinions (Good and bad), don't put stuff out on the internet.

          [–]JJ_Catano -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Drifted away into heaven at steve and 10 olympias

          [–]derpaderp1 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          This subreddit has gotten stupid as fuck the past few days. Talk about a god damn idiotic issue. Not even worth reading shit or coming here with half the posts just huge jacked chicks and a ton of comments bickering. It's just A huge fucking karma grab circlejerk to post pictures of chicks hoping to ride the upvotes of both sides.

          [–]zyedyyyyy -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I certainly empathize with your need to point that out, and certainly I recognize the elements you point out which include a sort of "Men's club" bravado. You have a right to speak freely.

          But ultimately, I think you are somewhat asking for this board to conform to a singular aspect of what you believe this subreddit should be.

          There are always going to be idiots, but there are also probably going to be an equal amount of commenters pointing out their idiocy.

          This board is as it is. Come here for your own gain, the way others would come here for a slightly varying but somewhat tangential reason.