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(Spoilers All) Unpopular Opinion: Anyone else NOT traumatized by tonight's episode? (self.asoiaf)

RivalRioStannis the Mannis が 投稿

We knew it was coming and it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been-- ESPECIALLY with the amount of hype from the interviews with all three actors. It was almost a let down after all of the hype. Dany's rape back in Season 1 was almost worse- she was sobbing and saying "no"! It was her wedding night- it's customary to have consummate the marriage. Ramsay tore her dress and was forceful, she yelped a bit. It was tame to me. I'm not impressed. I wanted to be horrified and disgusted but I'm not even fazed.

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[–]BearsNecessityEnter your desired flair text here! 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I wasn't. These are the Boltons, I wasn't expecting a honeymoon to White Harbor. Littlefinger knew what he was putting Sansa in for, and Sansa knew this day might come. It was dreadful, but it was 100% expected and hardly traumatizing.

Now Theon's Season 3. That shit traumatized me week after week after week, just because it. Kept. On. Going. If they do that with Sansa, I will have issues, but I think this is a one-time scene and Sansa knew that she had to play this game to achieve her ends.

[–]tsundoku_325The grass that hides the viper 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hope this is a one time scene.

[–]HugoBCNI am a prince, boy. 106 ポイント107 ポイント  (6子コメント)

What I don't get is how people are surprised this happened. It should be clear to everyone by now that, in Westeros, arranged/forced marriages are a thing and that consummating those marriages is a big deal to these characters. I don't get the outrage every time the show touches on this simple fact. What are the writers supposed to do, just cut this background out? Can't you see they would have to fundametally change the world GRRM created, if they wanted to stay 100% politically correct in every scene?

Of course it's awful by our standards, but so is flaying people and burning people and killing children and war. Awful things happen in Westeros. If you can't handle that, maybe this show isn't for you (and maybe you better not touch the books either... way more awful things happen there, and in a much more explicit fashion).

It seems to me there's no way the writers could have avoided the outrage. I mean when Tyrion refused to rape Sansa last season, people were outraged that Tyrion was the only one who had any agency here and that it made Sansa weak and whatnot. What do people expect? Sansa dealing swift justice and killing everyone who tries to hurt her on the spot?

[–]illuminaughtyhottieto the tune of a twisted demon monkey 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What do people expect? Sansa dealing swift justice and killing everyone who tries to hurt her on the spot?

this is the fuckin tea right here

[–]godplusplusEuron for king 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of all the things Ramsay has done, this one wasn't a big deal.

Sure, he wasn't gentle when he poked her, but she was now his wife and this was their wedding night. According to Westeros this was totally ok.

The sick thing was making Theon watch, I agree 100%. But the sex itself? Knowing Ramsay, it could've been a million times worse.

[–]CantStandParaplegicsThe night is dark and full of turnips 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My thoughts exactly, after deciding to have Ramsay wed Sansa there was going to have to be a sex scene, and given the hatred and disgust Sansa holds for Ramsay I probably would have been more irritated if she'd been happy about it.

[–]mary0111Forgive not Forget 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you, thank you, thank you

[–]Micro_Agent 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You didn't know she is Joan of arc. Pretty much this is what people want of Sansa.

[–]HoaryA Shadow in the Night 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not only that, but that scene was exactly what I expected from Ramsey. Even on the mild side for his character.

[–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon 298 ポイント299 ポイント  (83子コメント)

What I don't understand is all the people screaming that because Sansa was raped, that now her character is weak and her growth over the past two seasons has been thrown away. I cannot disagree more with this opinion. This is essentially saying that you are weak if you are raped. Sansa is NOT any weaker then she was before, and this will only solidify her hardness and yearning for revenge against those who have wronged her. In the end, this will make her stronger. Again, rape does not make you weak. And I expect to see Sansa prove that over the next few episodes.

[–]ghostROBOT22Reaver 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think one of the big problems of the whole situation is that you will have two different sets of people, each upset with how this will effect Sansa in different ways.

  • Some might be upset with how others are claiming that rape makes a woman weak or a victim.

  • Some are upset because they think the show is using rape to give Sansa a tough obstacle to overcome to finally become "strong," inferring that women who cannot overcome rape are weak.

Then you have to take in consideration how the writers, directors, and actors all intended the scene to come across.

I just think that the whole issue of rape and whether or not it's right to show how it either victimizes or strengthens a character is an incredibly slippery slope for a show. The whole issue is murky on what it does to the victim and people have extremely strong opinions about it either way. You can't really straddle the line in a middle-of-the-road sense regarding this issue, people are going to be angry in how it's displayed.

And I think one of the big problems is how the show previously dealt with the issue of rape and how poorly that was handled (Dany and Cercei). I think a lot of people just don't really have the good faith in the show to straddle the line, so to speak and to make it work in a way that's not either making Sansa a victim or using rape as a plot device to "spice up" her story.

[–]GhostsilentsnarlFive years must you wait 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Is it rape though? I'm not talking about modern standards here, I'm talking medieval style westerosi society. Sharing your husband's bed after you married him is socially normal for them. He wasn't gentle, so that's bad, and he made Theon watch which is weird but hey, it's medieval times, this was BOUND to happen. If you watch the TV series The White Queen for instance you see that almost every political marriage there has the girl suffer through her wedding night, and not enjoying it. It's shitty but it's what it was like if you had the misfortune of marrying a brutal dude for political reasons, and occurrences like these weren't rare.

[–]ghostROBOT22Reaver [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I see your point and from the perspective of a person in medieval society, they probably wouldn't see it as rape, but just the culmination of the wedding ceremony like you said.

But I think that argument is one of semantics. I think choosing to call an act something else due to a matter of perspective doesn't really change the act itself.

But I also think that it's just hard to separate the two ideas because we live in the modern age. You are technically correct (the best kind of correct) when saying that it wouldn't really be considered rape in medieval times, but I think we can all agree that forced penetration is a terrible thing from any perspective you take.

So I'd argue that it doesn't really matter what word you give to Ramsay's actions towards Sansa, the real issue would still remain whether or not the show is minimizing Sansa's character/power or using the scene as a plot device to further her or Theon's story.

[–]loeiro 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this puts everything into words perfectly.

[–]XkotA Hound Never Lies 72 ポイント73 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Exactly. Women are raped every day. It's fucking terrible. And they are not weak. And they often do not choose to think of themselves as victims.

[–]shmigshmog [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I think when people say that Sansa is weak they mean that she is continuing to take a passive role in what happens to her, even after her supposed breakthrough in development. I mean the kettle master's daughter just shows up, says "Hey, go into this dark hall filled with mad dogs, I'm a stranger who you just met sending you to a place with a "surprise memory" where your death would look like an accident!" and Sansa replies "Okey-dokey ma'am!". Before that she is just Little Finger's lap dog. And the rape tops it off. She's not weak for getting raped or weakened by the rape, she is not following her arc because so far her only expression of power was yelling at a kennel girl who threatened her. It's true she didn't have many optioned when it came to Ramsay but she made zero plays to try to mitigate it. At the end of season 4 she was supposed to be changed. We are half way through the season and she has done nothing proactively, she still is just a person things happen to.

コメントをもっと表示する (7 返事)

    [–]Gopackgo6 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    For me, it's not that the rape makes her weak. I never thought she was that strong in the first place. So many people in this community act like Sansa is now a power player because she's been through some rough shit and hung out with LF. Though she has definitely toughened up, she is far from being what many have built her up to be.

    [–]IronhornHungry? Try our fingers! 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It's interesting that people expect, even demand, some character growth from Sansa after so long (5 years of show; dozens of PoV chapters over 20 years of books). They get tired of seeing Sansa in seemingly the same situation repeatedly (Joffery, Riot, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Ramsey/Harry), where she - and I think this part is vital - seems to have so little agency (not that I agree).

    This is interesting to me because of a small quote from GRRM a few years back where he said he didn't believe in traditional fantasy character development. He didn't want his characters to just "level up" (his words) after every experience they faced.

    But, again, people are frustrated at the idea that Sansa may not be a player, because after 5 years they're tired of watching her be naiive and helpless. They feel like her story is not progressing, and so continuing to follow it is becomin pointless.

    Now, as for the show specifically, I have to say I think she has grown strong. Maybe not a "power player", but there was at least an opportunity for her to know what she was getting into, and agree to go along with the plan.

    [–]Padr1no [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    She wasn't raped. She agreed to have sex that she didn't enjoy very much.

    [–]carpe-jvgvlvm [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    They expect her to be like Jeyne. They're in that "frame of mind" where Sansa=Jeyne, and not where D&D are forging new paths to the same end.

    I'd feel sorry for Sansa too if I thought she were going down the Jeyne path. I'd feel sorry for anyone in that situation. And the "reader purists" (which maybe I used to be, so I'm not slamming anyone) are trying to fit a square peg (books) into a round hole (HBO series). So I feel for them; I can see some of them actually quitting. They believe (I guess?) that Sansa's been magically turned into Jeyne, and this is just the first of worst rapes to come.

    Not that I'm right that Sansa will be filling LSH's role, and maybe other roles (like JBear is doing) — I'm guessing, too. We're all in unchartered territory. But ITA that Sansa's strong, IS a Stark (unlike "fake Arya"), and her experiences will make her able to handle LSH's job and take Winterfell with or without Stannis.

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I'm pretty much right in line with you. I think Sansa is going to to take the LSH/Manderly/Mance's spearwives role in that she will help turn the tables on the Boltons from behind the scenes as a player of the game. How that will happen, and what she will do exactly, I have no idea. But I don't see her going down the Jeyne other than I believe her and Theon will escape Winterfell similar to how Theon/Jeyne escaped... but not before she gets a little bit of revenge first.

    [–]Painweaver 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I'm pretty sure that there are demoralizing psychological after effects of rape that take years to overcome.

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Yes of course there are. I'm not saying that they aren't. I'm merely making a comment disagreeing with the countless reactions from last night of people claiming her entire growth as a character has been trashed now.

    You can go through things that cause major psychological issues, but still grow from it.. and it certainly doesn't negate everything that has built your character into who you were until that moment. And, as I stated above, this will not make her a weak person or a weak character. I don't want to compare Jamie's handcutting to Sansa's rape, but the growth from it can be very similar. Jamie was demoralized to the point of thinking he shouldn't even live anymore (as he tells Brienne), but shortly after, he grows from the experience and becomes a much harder man then he was beforehand. Sansa may become very demoralized after this, but I think due to her experiences with Joffrey and the trauma she has incurred over the past few years as basically trained herself how to deal with these situations. Even though this is worse than anything Joff ever did to her, she has the mental insight now to know how to deal with it better than most people. I think this will be the ultimate turning point for her to really step up her game from pawn to player, and she will use that psychological trauma and be able to focus it into a rage for revenge.

    [–]Painweaver 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I understand your point. One direction I thought they go with this is that Sansa finally snaps; this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. And she goes full LSH bloodthirsty and plotting for vengeance, but she seems pretty broken in the preview scene.

    [–]green_carbon07Every rose has its thorn. 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Going completely LSH can-of-whoop-ass style and being a completely limp noodle are two wayyy extremely different ends of a spectrum of ways that Sansa can react.

    Certainly this was a rape, and rape is bad. Ramsay is a bad man. So far, Sansa hasn't been been beaten or tortured physically by Ramsay, and for that much I'm thankful. Having Theon watch was a shitty thing which only increased the humiliation of losing her virginity in a way that she surely did not want.

    But I think there are a lot of other ways that she can realistically react besides going into complete violent vengeance mode or being reduced to a puddle on the floor.

    [–]Painweaver 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Given Sansa's age (17 in the show?) and all of the trauma she has endured up to this point, I can't really see her reaction being anything but extreme.

    [–]loeiro -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I agree. I immediately felt like the rape was a huge plot mistake. But then I thought, maybe they can still redeem this, but after seeing that preview, I have lost all faith. They are just going to have her continue to be tortured until she finally calls Brienne to come save the damsel in distress that she is.

    [–]carpe-jvgvlvm [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I don't think she'll go full-on LSH. Tbh, I felt sorry for Cat being undead and possibly her kids having to see her like that; that's a cruel, horrible fate that not even Jon-hating Cat deserves. And blindly killing for revenge? LSH is no better than any random wight, afaic.

    But D&D could take a disabused Sansa ("disabused" of the notions of being a princess from AGOT) who has seen horrors, and now lived them, and forge her into a more realistic LSH with a soul: someone who'll be able to rule the north.

    And I don't think she's going to be Littlefinger's "puppet".

    [–]Banzai51Night gathers 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (18子コメント)

    Not that she was raped, she knew that was coming when she agreed to marry him. But Sansa was just a bystander in that entire scene. No attempt to be her own woman, unlike the bath scene just earlier. She just cowered in front of Ramsey.

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon 54 ポイント55 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    And what would you do in that situation, after literally the scene before she found out that the girls who didn't make Ramsay happy were fed alive to his dogs? I think all of us would have cowered in that situation, and wait until the right time to strike back.

    [–]babyblanka 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I thought Sansa stepping up to Myranda in that scene was her best interaction so far.

    [–]Banzai51Night gathers 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Think the Boltons can afford to carelessly kill or maim Ned's girl and still keep their hold on the North? Their hold is shaky and they know it. Giving The North a reason to openly rebel would be a bad idea.

    Ramsay and Roose have every reason to keep Sansa safe and whole. Not only to keep the wolves (hehe) at bay, but to produce an heir.

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I wouldn't be surprised if Roose gets pissed when he finds out how Ramsay isn't being as nice as he promised he would be. Ramsay is a maniac who thrives on chaos and doesn't really think long-term (even though he thinks he does). Roose will not be happy if he finds out Ramsay starts treating Sansa like he did last night.

    [–]Banzai51Night gathers 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I don't think he'll care about last night. More than likely he'd cheer it because it is an outcome that might end with an heir. But the truly horrific stuff Ramsay is capable of? That would piss off Roose.

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It depends. He knows how volatile the North is and on how much shaky ground they (the Boltons) are as a family and their hold on the North. If he thinks that it might get out that Ramsay is raping a Stark girl, he would be very VERY pissed. He needs Ramsay and Sansa to show to the North that they are treating her well, and that she accepts the Boltons fully, in order for them to continue holding the North in peace.

    On a personal level, I don't think he would care at all. But politically and publicly, he will be very angry with Ramsay.

    [–]walkingcarpet23The North Remembers 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This was my thought. As clever as Sansa is I'd assume that soon if Ramsey tries to be sadistic towards her she can bring up the fact that the North supports her and they need her alive and well.

    Obviously consummation of a marriage can't really be considered mistreating to many in the show, but if he attempts anything similar to what he's done to Theon I think she can use this to save herself

    [–]JhonopolisThe mummer’s farce is almost done. 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    We all know that to be true, but as a 15 year old girl in that situation im sure Sansa wasn't viewing it as clearly.

    [–]Banzai51Night gathers 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If the Show wants to paint Sansa as just a 15 year old girl, then they've failed on the storytelling front. What was all of last year's Sansa plot about?

    [–]DkS_FIJI"We do not show" 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    She does what she has to in order to survive. And she is going to get some vengeance very soon.

    [–]TraceofbassJon Snow needs night classes 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Oh God, what if Sansa delivers some line referring to how she has a hardened heart... perhaps a heart of stone... before inflicting righteous vengeance?

    [–]xineoph 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Which is completely realistic given her current position and knowledge. Ramsay is well known for being a fucking psychopath, of course she'll be scared. She still has a chance to play the game and get back at him later. Honestly, the last thing I want to see is Sansa become another Mary Sue

    [–]universal_strawVengence, Justce. Fire and Blood. 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Cowering in that situation was absolutely the right thing to do and she knew it. If she had resisted in any way Ramsey would have hurt her much worse. As terrible as it is, she made the right decision.

    [–]smogoWho's your daddy? 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    You know after this whole "If you know what a man wants, you know how to move him" thing from LF, it feels like it was pointless. She could have pretended she was a second Myranda or something, not just meek Sansa again. Like in the new Alayne sample chapter but with Ramsay.

    [–]a7neuUngelded. 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Is that really realistic? She's still in a period of transition, from meek Sansa to confident Sansa, how likely is it that she's going to stay in character (confident) when she's scared shitless? Keep in mind Ramsay's basically giving her a death threat and of course she's scared of the pain, and it's kind of a monumental moment for her anyways.

    [–]TujinThe Blackest Fyre 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    She knows that he enjoys victimizing women, and was excited about the fact that she was a virgin. So, she gave him exactly what he wanted. If she suddenly turned on the sexual charm, he'd be extremely suspicious of her. She did exactly what she had to to keep him thinking of her as a defenseless victim. I think we're going to see her continue to play that angle while setting up the downfall of the boltons. At least I sure fucking hope so. It sucks that this happened to her, but I think she is going to be the ultimate victor in this game at Winterfell.

    [–]Mynipsareonfire 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    My objection with Sansa’s rape was that it's gratuitous. We don't really need to have Sansa have any more motivation at this point, it doesn't further the plot. She already hates the Boltons because they engineered Robb and Catelyn's deaths. There's really no point in having her marry Ramsey.

    It's just not clean and tidy writing, like the books, where everything has a purpose. It reminds me of Dragon raping Dany on the show, where in the books their sexual relationship was much more nuanced and revealed aspects of his character.

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I agree, but at the same time, this is RAMSAY BOLTON we are talking about here.

    Ramsay is someone who enjoys raping women, especially if she is a known virgin and the daughter of a great lord against he's felt inferior his entire life.

    Anything else he would have done on the night he consummated his marriage would have been out of character, and that would have been even worse writing than what was portrayed last night. Horrific to watch, and horrific to see it happen to a character we love? Yes. But realistic within the world of Game of Thrones and the character of Ramsay? Absolutely.

    [–]a7neuUngelded. 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Don't you think having her marry Ramsay tightened the plot? Now we have Sansa, Theon, the Boltons, Stannis and Brienne converging in one place.

    Re: Drogon and Dany, he rapes her viciously in later chapters, so I don't think the exclusion of the initial tenderness is so deviant.

    [–]Mynipsareonfire [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Really? It's been years since I read the books but I don't remember Drogo as rapey with Dany!

    I thought the marriage made the plot messier. Wouldn't Roose ask the crown for permission, as Warden of the North, to let his son wed a fugitive for alleged regicide? What is his end game? I suppose since he controls the Neck he feels safe from any Southern threat especially with Tywin gone. But, still.

    And now with Stannis in the Wall maybe he wanted to rush to get Ramsay married to Sansa to reinforce the Bolton claim to Winterfell and maybe an heir. But Stannis could just extricate Sansa by declaring the marriage void and any issue bastards. (Roose is a shit Warden, completely ignoring the Wall situation except to dispatch Locke to look for the youngest Starks).

    Thinking more about that raow scene, I think it had two purposes. One was to give Theon a reason to resist his Reek persona and help Sansa. Despite his capture of Winterfell he seems to have the strongest feelings about his childhood with the Starks, it was the only time in his life that he knew kindness and honor. During Sansa’s wedding he hesitates before identifying Eddard as his "ward", it's so loaded with longing and regret. Seeing Sansa raped makes him fully realize what his role in the destruction of the Stark legacy has come to.

    I think the other point of the scene was to shock the viewer, just like Eddard's beheading and the Oberyn's death. This show needs moments like these. I still think it was gratuitous and chesp but I see where they are headed and why they did it.

    [–]Abi_Normal [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I'm sorry, but how can you even make this claim at this point in time. You state that it is gratuitous and without purpose, yet it happened at the very close of the episode.

    How is it even possible for you to state that there is no purpose behind it when you have not seen the conclusion of the season. This seems like quite a presumptuous statement. I have not seen the conclusion to the season, so I will be waiting until I make up my mind as to whether the rape scene was over the top or not.

    tl;dr - Let's all wait until the fat lady (Walda?) sings

    [–]carpe-jvgvlvm [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Okay, so she hates the Boltons. But she's not the only one; everyone hates the Boltons. But Sansa's the only one IN Winterfell who can DO something about the Boltons once she gets her thoughts straight after the wedding night.

    There's no character like Sansa. Dany comes close except she has magic dragons and has made thousands of enemies so far; she has the backing of powerful men. Sansa has Theon maybe, Baelish maybe, and doesn't know for sure that Brienne is there. She has "friends". And a candle in Cersei/Jaime's sex room. A distant hope that Stannis will get to Winterfell.

    THIS is the way to handle Sansa's arc. She has some knowledge, and she wants revenge, but I don't think she quite grasped how wicked Ramsay was. Now she knows. We'll see where it goes.

    [–]KFitzSeven Hells! [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    People are insanely impatient and reactionary on this sub. There's 4 more episodes for Sansa to react to what happened to her and set whatever "the north remembers" plan there is in motion. This scene does not "ruin her character arc" as so many are saying here. People are acting like she's dead or something. No. There's a lot more for Sansa to do and the fact that she consented to this marriage and KNEW IT WOULD BE CONSUMMATED shows that her strength is not just being taken away by the evil and stupid D&D. People are just insanely shortsighted and biased against any of these scenes because they aren't in the books.

    [–]godplusplusEuron for king -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

    How was she raped though? She wasn't......

    EDIT: I meant in the context of Westeros. Not in the context of our modern society

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Uh, what?

    [–]Zeratzul [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    I'm thinking he's saying that most lords would not consider it a huge deal to forcibly consummate a marriage during that time period. It is expected of a married couple, after all.

    It is much worse when you get down to the specifics, the fact that the house of bolton is forcing a marriage between the starks after the betrayal... THAT would be the issue.

    it's obviously still rape though, both parties didn't agree.

    [–]godplusplusEuron for king 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    In the context of ASOIAF, it wasn't rape. Westeros is not our modern society. That's what people seem to be missing.

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    It's still rape. It's just that in the context in Westeros, rape isn't as offensive or looked down upon then in modern society, and is much more accepted and a way of life. But that doesn't mean it's suddenly not rape.

    [–]godplusplusEuron for king 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    But what I don't understand is: Sansa knew what she was getting into, she knew she was gonna have sex with Ramsay in that moment.

    What makes it rape exactly then? That Theon was watching? That Ramsay wasn't gentle when doing it? That she wasn't enjoying it?

    Some seasons ago when some dudes from the mob took her into an alley and almost raped her is completely different from what happened last night.

    [–]lvl99 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I don't understand either. Sansa bore false witness against the butcher's boy, Is she an accomplice to murder?

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

    There are all sorts of sexual boundaries, and each person has their own boundary, and if that is crossed, it is by definition rape. If you do not see this as a violation of Sansa and her sexual boundary, then I don't know what to tell you.

    Yes, she knew what she was getting into (to a degree, as much as a virgin can understand before experiencing it). She understood she would need to have sex with Ramsay on her wedding night.

    But the moment he didn't get her 'ready', especially her being a virgin, and forced himself on a her completely dry with zero sympathy or regard to her own feelings or pain, he crossed that boundary, and it went from consensual sex between man and wife, to a husband forcing himself on a wife in a painful manner, and even though she never outright said 'no', it was painfully obvious to Ramsay, Theon, and the audience that she did not want it to go down that way, and was not enjoying it at all and was in a lot of pain. So no, it's not 'brutal' rape, or gangrape, etc. And of course it's very different from the almost-gangrape in the alley. But to say it's not rape at all is absurdly naive.

    Again, I'm not arguing against the scene and not upset that it was included in the show at all. I don't want to sound like the people whining about it on other threads. Just clarifying that this was forced, painful sex on Sansa, regardless if she knew it was coming or not, which is a type of rape. And the fact that Westeros is much more accepting of this type of act, and even considers it spoils of war in many cases (ie Drothaki), it's still rape.

    [–]godplusplusEuron for king [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

    Thank you for the explanation.

    When people said "Sansa got raped" I didn't understand why they said it. But yeah, I guess even if we take out the whole "dry" thing, the fact that she didn't agree to have Theon watch them makes it non-consensual.

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Exactly. People really went way overboard (imo) on some of the threads with their reactions, which is why you may have gotten a bit confused. Especially when you consider the culture of Westeros vs our culture, and the varying degrees of rape (gang rape vs non-consensual, etc).

    [–]avadriver -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    So tell me, a girl crying and scared and screaming in pain is consent for you?

    [–]godplusplusEuron for king 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    In our modern context, it's not. In Westeros, and back then, it was ok. She was married to him, it was their wedding night. What were you expecting?

    People seem to forget that Westeros is not 2015 Planet Earth.

    [–]LintPlastic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It doesn't make you weak that is right. But it can mess you up. As someone who went through childhood sexual abuse it can take your power away. It took me years to become strong. And even though I am stronger and better it still effects me in ways, even though it has been over 10 years since it happened.

    I think most people mean that. Maybe some people out there don't get mentally or emotional broken after rape... I don't know. Because I was for a very long time.

    I get it is different in that time though. And maybe she did this to gain back her home and will kill him. I dunno... it was painful to watch because I read all the books and show and know sansa like the back of my hand. It is hard seeing a character you adore go through this. And what made it worse was he didn't even try to set her up for it. It was dry and hard. She was ripped open. That is just horrible and upsetting.

    Yeah it could have been worse and Jeyne had it worse in book. Both were bad and upsetting. I am just trying too say it doesn't make you weak but it can take years/lifetime to gain back your power and state of mind after something like this.

    Hopfully that makes sense.

    [–]RamsayreekThe Artist Formerly Known as Theon 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I absolutely agree with you. I was more or less responding to all the reactions I was reading last night on the discussion threads that were claiming her growth as a character was all for nothing, and she would resort back to how she was back in the first few seasons. And people claiming that she was 'weak' for allowing it to happen. My point was that as psychologically traumatic this would be for her, it wouldn't necessarily destroy who she was and what she has learned before it happened. And I also wanted to make it a point that just because she didn't fight back during the rape, doesn't mean she is a weak person (which people were claiming).

    [–]shushravensNobody -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Can we stop calling it rape just because she had sex with a character we do not like.

    コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

      [–]komacki 43 ポイント44 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      It was tame to me.

      I think that if they kept the camera on Sansa it would have been a LOT worse. What a DON'T agree with was another post that said the camera moving to Theon made the scene about him and made Sansa just an object (or something to that effect) in his character development. I strongly disagree with that. The scene was about both of them (and Ramsay) and the fact that the worst parts happened offscreen does not diminish anything for any of the characters, it just prevents it from being gratuitous. I thought it was shot as good as it could have been.

      [–]TEmpTom -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Seriously, I was expecting some "puppy love," all I got was some tame yelping.

      コメントをもっと表示する (3 返事)

        [–]shonryukkuDeath is only the first act 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        i don't know why people here are so upset

        you read the books, you read this subreddit, you watched the interviews you knew from the moment they revealed the winterfell plot this was gonna happen and it wasn't even that bad.

        we could have had to watch A bedding ceremony, ramsey "teach" a resisting sansa or have theon actively helping.

        they did this in the easiest way possible all things considered.

        [–]green_carbon07Every rose has its thorn. 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        The bedding ceremony stuff is really what I found difficult to swallow in the books. The fact that it was just completely okay and normal. And that this is based on historical reality and not invented.

        I forget whose POV it was from, but I'd have been feeling super uncomfortable and vulnerable if I were a woman going through that ordeal of my male relatives making sexual jokes and physical passes at me as I was being brought to the marital bedchamber, on top of then having to submit to my husband (most likely a stranger and not someone I chose or loved or was attracted to) physically and completely.

        [–]I_want_hard_work 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        It was definitely tame by all bars that the show has set. It didn't even include nudity. It was (and this will seem like a strange word choice) about as tasteful as a rape scene can be in a show. Proper emotion of horror conveyed without any nudity or gratuitous shots of the rapist. The ONLY reason people are upset is because it's Sansa.

        [–]N7ChristianThe Old, the True, the Brave 76 ポイント77 ポイント  (25子コメント)

        I agree and I think it's insulting to call Sansa a victim since I feel it undermines her character and progression. She's now one of the strongest women in the show. She could have turned around when they got to Moat Cailin but she made a decision to ride to Winterfell and get married. She knew what was coming. Hell the scene before she tells Myranda that she is Sansa Stark of Winterfell and she is in her home. She was basically telling Myranda to shut the fuck up and that she wouldn't be intimidated. What did people expect her to do pull out a knife and kill Ramsay? What then? Where does she go? She is learning to play the game and learned that sometimes you have to do things to get what you want. What does she want? Winterfell, her home, and revenge.

        [–]eagereyez 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (7子コメント)

        Calling her one of the strongest women in the show because she allowed herself to be raped is quite a stretch, don't you think? I mean the Queen of Thorns orchestrated Joffrey's murder. Cersei, for all the things she's gotten horribly wrong, was able to kill off her husband and put her son(s) on the throne. Daenarys, do I really need to say anything here? So far Sansa has allowed herself to be raped. By one of the guys responsible for the destruction of her home. All because Petyr Baelish made her a promise. Color me unimpressed. It's still very much the same damsel in distress plot, with Petyr supposedly coming to her rescue. Not even sure how that's supposed to play out. I'm assuming since her story has become fused with Jeyne Poole's, that she'll end up being rescued by Theon. She's not even the strongest woman in her own family. I'd have rather seen her seduce and toy with Harry Hardyng than get raped and tortured by Ramsay Bolton. She would have been the rightful heir to the Vale, and could have sent her army to smash the Boltons from the back as they fought against Stannis. Or just chilled in the Vale while they tore each other apart, and the Targaryens attacked from the south (as was originally written in the book).

        [–]DiscreetMooseX 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (4子コメント)

        Cersei, for all the things she's gotten horribly wrong, was able to kill off her husband and put her son(s) on the throne.

        You say it like it happened in a day. It started off with Cersei being married and then fucked by a drunken giant named Robert Baratheon who didn't even want her in his bed. Sounds like a pretty similar beginning to Sansa's arc. Judging this arc at the start seems pretty silly.

        Dany hype

        Her story began in a similar way to Cersei and now Sansa's.

        [–]eagereyez 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        The point is that Sansa hasn't done anything right now to warrant being called 'one of the strongest women in the show', not that she won't do anything to warrant that in the future.

        Also, Cersei and Dany were forced into their marriages, whereas Sansa was talked into hers.

        [–]DiscreetMooseX [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

        A) So you're saying she chose to get married and raped in order to have a chance at revenge.

        B) And this makes her weaker than Cersei/Dany.

        I'm sorry I just don't see how B follows A.

        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

          [–]Helmet_Icicle 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Being strong when it's easy to be strong, is easy.

          Being strong when it's difficult to be strong, is difficult.

          "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

          "That is the only time a man can be brave."

          [–]4THOT 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Thank you for typing all the words so I don't have to...

          [–]loeiro -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I'm not upset that rape made her a victim or look weak, I'm upset that the showrunners thought they needed this woman to allow herself to be raped to make herself a strong character.

          [–]pale_of_frost 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (6子コメント)

          I don't get why no one's freaking out over Arya straigh up euthanising a girl because she had a sore stomach.

          [–]alayne_Goldenhand the Just 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (3子コメント)

          because she had a sore stomach.

          Did you watch the same show as me? From what her father had said, the girl was incurably ill and obviously suffering so much that he thought death would be a mercy. And it's also not Arya's part to question these things, she's just a servant. Anyone could go there and drink from the pool for any reason. Whether it's morally justifiable to kill the girl without her knowing it (only her father) is another issue.

          [–]jd_balla 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Because there is only one God and all will know his gift

          [–]mypasswordismudThe Asshole people from Dickhead Island. 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Yeah, thanks for mentioning that, with so much other stuff going on in that episode, it was easy to overlook. I remember thinking, jeeze, she's becoming a body snatcher.

          [–]uncleyuri 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Not at all. I give them credit for toning it down so much. Amazing to be that so many 'book readers' are upset about this 'unnecessary, sickening' scene. Did you people actually read the books?

          [–]not_vichyssoiseTime is a Wheel 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I agree. This is Ramsay Bolton we're talking about. What did you expect him to do?

          There were no dogs or finger-eating, for which I am quite glad.

          [–]loeiro 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          You are missing the point about why people think it is unnecessary. It isn't unnecessary because it is brutal. It just isn't necessary enough for the plot for how brutal it is. It has nothing to do with books vs. show. The whole point is that the showrunners were already changing it from the book, so why not do it in a way that Sansa doesn't get raped?

          [–]OldCarSmell42Pray Harder 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (3子コメント)

          Agreed. It wasn't anywhere near Red Wedding type bad.

          [–]lvl99 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (2子コメント)

          Didn't phase me the slightest. Super tame for the boltons. Sometimes I wonder if people remember the books here. Dog rape, mental and physical torture, Jeyne being a shell of a person offering to be reeks whore?

          Where was the crying over the tickler and his rats? The uproar is only because she's a stark.

          [–]OldCarSmell42Pray Harder -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

          Pretty sure that's exactly it. If you had been a Sansa fan since season 1, you really didn't have that much to complain about. I think some people took their first big hit and can't handle it. Just shows what kind of people were Sansa fans.

          [–]mary0111Forgive not Forget 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          Not 100% - I'm a massive Sansa fan and will defend her until the day I die, and I think that the reactions to this scene are just completely over the top

          [–]clivodimars 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I got down voted to hell for saying I was enjoying how evil Ramsay is. I was nervous there would be a huge gap to fill with Joff gone, but Ramsays actor is killing it. I mean poor Sansa but this is hardly something from out of left field. As soon as Sansa agreed to marry Ramsay, this is the way it was going to go down. Really surprised at the audience reaction on this one.

          [–]S133pyCthulhu was the Doom of Valyria 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          What bothers me the most is the people threatening to stop watching the show. We have had plenty of shocking scenes: Drogo and Dany on their wedding night, Cersei and Jamie next to Joffrey's corpse, Theon's finger getting flayed, Oberyn's head being crushed, etc. It's like the people who are so upset by this scene have not watched any of the rest of GoT. This far into the show they have had fair warning that graphic things will be shown, including rape. GoT has well established that there will be shocking scenes and people who can't handle that should not have still been watching 5 seasons into the show.

          And I absolutely agree with the OP that it was a fairly tame and fully expected scene.

          [–]pimpst1ckWe didn't start the wildfire 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

          I made a more detailed explanation as another thread, but I thought generally what happened does make sense for all characters involved (Ramsay, Theon, Sansa AND Littlefinger), was true to GRRM's writing style (how tropebreaking is it that the damsel in distress abandons looking for a knight in shining armour in order to chose to an even worse psychopath so to get her own revenge?) and was extremely well shot.

          [–][削除されました]  (15子コメント)

          [deleted]

            [–]MusahaladinEdd, fetch me a block. 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            This barely registered on my disturb-o-meter. We've seen much worse. One more notable case that didn't cause an uproar was Ros being forced by Joffrey to brutalize the other whore with a stag head sceptre. I'm comfortable saying I'd rather be raped than beaten with that thing.

            [–]_shifte 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Seriously. The scene last night wasn't disturbing at all compared to the other stuff on this show. I think this is just turning in to a circle jerk because people see it is the popular opinion to be literally crying and hyperventilating over it and the fact that it happened to our dear sweet Salsa.

            [–]TyeneSandSnakeThe brunette Tyene is an impostor!! 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (7子コメント)

            And it's not just the viewers' interpretation....it's the way the show portrays everything. Dany raped? Let's show it all and then go to the next scene. Jaime getting his hand cut off? Let's play a fun punk song! Theon getting castrated? Let's have Ramsay eat some sausage!! LOL! Sansa gets raped....woah guys let's make it super dramatic with intense music and only show Theon's reaction.

            [–]SzalvatA lot of loyalty, for a hired sword. 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            My takehome: everyone who is so appalled at this should fuck off and stop watching the show and also stop commenting here so I don't have to read this garbage

            We're the minority.

            Point this out in some other threads (during some normal day) and you'll drown in downvotes :

            Honestly, it's appalling to see all these people getting enraged about "violence against women" because of this. I doubt these people care a single bit that men are being brutally slaughtered left right and centre every episode, in fact they probably get off on it considering that they've watched the show for this long.

            Men are over the 80% of named characters that die. If we include non-named, it'd go up to 99% due to the battles. Somehow, the world is very misogynistic and women very oppressed. Maybe people could realize that, unless you're a noble or a very rich person (merchant from the City-States), you are oppressed in one way or another, man or woman. It mimics how it's been for thousands of years.

            [–]OldWolf2 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            The outrage is because of all the rape apologists.

            [–]aizxy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            What is a rape apologist

            [–]BryndenBFishEverything is going swimmingly[M] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Comment removed. Please do not be rude on /r/asoiaf

            [–]bakch0dSuper Admin, weirwood.net 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I sort of agree.

            Scene was hard to watch but there isn't a reason to outrage specially considering that book readers have read about worse things happening to Jeyne Pool.

            [–]tsundoku_325The grass that hides the viper 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            It was also a tough note to end on; no chance for brain bleach.

            [–]Psionx0 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (12子コメント)

            I haven't watched the episode yet, but I expected this scene in tonight's episode. Glad it isn't as graphic as some of the media made it out to be. I'll be back later... gunna go watch the episode now.

            [–]Starkfaithful85 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I agree I thought the whole "reek prepare her for me" was gonna happen, glad it didn't happen but I was expecting to be disgusted by the scene.

            [–]klug3A Time for Wolves 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Saying someone is "weak" means nothing unless you specify what they are "weak" in.

            And yes the fact that Sansa got into such a bad situation after being responsible for many of the decisions leading up to it absolutely means that she is a "weak" manipulator/player of the game.

            The show gave us a scene of her making a choice (at Moat Cailin) to go for LF's proposed plan. Yet afterwards she does nothing to achieve said goals. Given that she has a card up her sleeve to manipulate the Boltons with: the possibility of keeping the North under control. A real player would have offered to be the Bolton's mediator with other houses to bring peace, but in reality binding the houses to herself and then changing sides when opportunity presented itself. Yet all they made her do was nothing at all. Which I totally hate as Book!Sansa is my favourite character.

            Sansa Book!arc has nothing to do with going from "weak" to "strong", its about going from being a piece in the game to a player. Which progress has been totally railroaded by the show in the last 2 episodes.

            [–]Alternate_Ending74Honey nut WesterO's 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I feel like the best way to explain it is like this: was it terrible that Sansa was raped? Yes, I wasn't holy about it and I definitely didn't want it to happen. On the other hand, it was just Ramsey being Ramsey. We as viewers know he is crazy and a monster that does terrible things for his own amusement. Plus there was the whole build up scene in the bath where Ramsey's old girl was telling Sansa how crazy he is. Honestly, the screams and shouts of pain were pretty rough to sit through but if it were any milder then it wouldn't of been really true to the tone that was set for Ramsey.

            [–]CultureVulture629How Heavy This Axe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I certainly wasn't traumatized, but I did think it was a really powerful scene. When it's all said and done, I'm confident it will be considered one of the most emotionally significant scenes in the show.

            [–]yeadoge 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Definitely not traumatized, and I don't think this is contradicting her character arc in any way. There's a juxtaposition of the bath scene, where she shows strength and resistance to a spoken threat, and the rape scene, where she comes face to face with the reality of what she needs to do to gain power. Up until now she's been strong, but she hasn't had to actually DO anything. Here she's overwhelmed by the task at hand, but she does what she needs to do without fighting it. That's the best choice for her right now and she did it. That's all.

            [–]Angrydwarf99The Half-Stard 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Oh God I thought I was the only one and there was something wrong with me.

            [–]BER1CAlways watching 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I'm traumatized by how far the show has deviated from the books. That's about it.

            [–]hudspud 45 ポイント46 ポイント  (36子コメント)

            People are losing their shit because society is being re-taught to see rape as the worst thing ever. All the horror we've seen and nothing more than a few tame screams from Sansa is enough to set people into a fury.

            [–]SzalvatA lot of loyalty, for a hired sword. 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (19子コメント)

            Exactly.

            To the people complaining about rape, just point them to the Theon rape scene that ended with him being sexually mutilated. They never cry in their Twitters and blogs about that.

            [–]OldCarSmell42Pray Harder 40 ポイント41 ポイント  (6子コメント)

            Its pretty scary when people say that rape is worse than murder.

            [–]tsundoku_325The grass that hides the viper 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            From the viewers POV, a murder is over quickly. Marital rape is, ugh, are we gonna have to witness this again next week? I felt the same way with Theon's extended torture season, it just would not end, and that was way tougher to watch than a brutal murder.

            [–]Lokky 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (4子コメント)

            And where were these people when the Roose described killinghanging a man for getting married without his consent and raping his wife under the hanging body?

            [–]tsundoku_325The grass that hides the viper 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            they were everywhere, comparing that scene to the Stannis/Shireen scene. it was a great character contrast between two col competent leaders in the north, showing that one of them is squishy deep down and the other is a true psychopath.

            [–]Lokky -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Right my point is that people weren't complaining about the terrible rape but instead praised the scene for characterizing Roose.

            But his even more fucked up son has somewhat exhibitionist and rough sex with his wife and suddenly people are complaining about it. I was honestly expecting Ramsey to Have reek prepare her for him as per the books,that scene was much tamer than it could have been.

            [–]tsundoku_325The grass that hides the viper 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Any sensible person would agree that what Roose did was more brutal. But having to watch a medium graphic scene is more emotionally jarring than hearing about a more graphic scene.

            I think most people here are sharing their own feelings of disgust and discomfort, not stating that this is 100% the worst thing that ever happened to anyone in all of Westeros.

            [–]tsundoku_325The grass that hides the viper 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I am SO GLAD they didn't go there with Reek. reading about it is one thing, but actually seeing it would be off the charts uncomfortable.

            [–]Dent18Let me bathe in Bolton blood 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            All the complaints about the scene are actually making me like it now

            [–]tsundoku_325The grass that hides the viper 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Maybe because what happened to Sansa is more relatable than the more over the top torture scenes. If you can picture it happening to you, it may upset you more.

            [–]banjowashisnameo -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            This is called a strawman argument. No one is outraged because of the rape persay. The character whom Sansa replaced in the show goes through much worse form of rape. However people are complaining because the show has put one of the most beloved characters in the show in harm's way for just cheap publicity. The outrage will be same if tomorrow they decide to mutilate Tyrion to show his sufferings

            [–]hudspud [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            "Sickening display on this show tonight. Fucking sickening. Another invented rape scene. More invented violence against women. This shit doesn't exist in the books. I am utterly and completely disgusted with this bullshit show."

            "SHAMEFUL EPISODE ENDING TONIGHT. It's obvious the writers have decided to go down hill. There was NO reason to put in such a nasty rape scene."

            "I will never watch another episode of your shows after tonights Sansa Stark Rape Scene ( as well as among so many other awful book to T.V adaptations from this tragic season) ... As a loyal reader since the first book release, im so heart broken that the show has gone this far from text into what it has become. Shame on you GRRMartin for allowing them to butcher your masterpiece in this way."

            "Shame on HBO for throwing in gratuitous rape."

            "Disgusting. Not entertaining at all. The last scene was not only unnecessary but a sick representation of what was a great series. Shame on the HBO writers and their demented interpretation of entertainment."

            "Encouraging rape are we? Extremely bad taste!!!!"

            Taken from another posters FB feed who was talking about the controversy. Actual fans who read the book/care about the story are upset about the potential regression of Sansa's character. I'm talking about the rape culture/gender baiting idiots who's only purpose is to critique and ruin things that others are fans of that they don't agree with. It isn't a strawman. You think I'm talking about ASOIAF fans when I'm talking about SJWs.

            [–]shotofwhiskey94 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I'm with you on this. I'm not very surprised by the public's reaction, rape scenes are not that common on TV and I'm not judging anyone who was horrified. However I can't help comparing it to the rape scene in The Sopranos... Which was WAY more brutal and very hard to watch.

            [–]loeiro 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            God I forgot about that scene. That really was fucking horrifying, but mostly because it was so out of the blue.

            [–]pluttor 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            THANK YOU. Same here. My wife was sooo uncomfortable after watching that scene and I just said "ehh.. compared to the book, she got off super easy."

            [–]dpgaspard 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I thought it was the strongest episode this season. The Dorne scenes have been rather weak. I feel like they have an ending they are going towards and the rest is filler to get them there. With that being said they are weak compared to the best television show ever made.

            [–]Banzai51Night gathers 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I'm more horrified and disgusted by who was doing it, Ramsey, than the actual scene. They got married, you knew this was coming.

            [–]weirds 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Rape, torture, murder, and mutilation are all part of the story. It is supposed to make people uncomfortable.

            Bad storytelling, though, that is much more disturbing to me... fucking Sand Snakes.

            [–]Edasher06 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            My one thing to say on this topic is this... Dany's sex scenes were way worse. .. and look at how strong and powerful of a character she has become now. I think Sansa will be taking the same path.

            Yes she obviously needs to get away from psycho, but she is so grumpy and downhearted all the time! (Before THIS scene) Yes she has been doing a good job at STOPPING her emotions (ex. seeing Reek), but she still doesn't have the flirtatious/friendly fake personality she desperately needs to make alliences to benefit her. Aka what Meranda is doing.

            [–]TheSecondApocalypseRodrik Whoresbane [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            I knew it was coming. It didn't faze me. Sansa's character comes out the stronger for it, and so does Theon -- that guy has some acting chops, tell you h'what.

            [–]malkjuice82 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            I've read the books so I was expecting worse. Also I live on the internet, it takes a lot to phase me.

            [–]Decessus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Of course I'm not traumatized, this is fiction and I'm not an idiot (getting downvoted for this part, woohoooo).

            There have been thousands of rape scenes in movies and tv shows. Most of them worse than last night's. None traumatized me, they are all fiction.

            [–]lordkrall 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            What I find most annoying is the fact that so many people seem to take so much issue with it and claim that it was "once again using rape to show power". I mean, have they even seen the series? Or even read real life history? Raping women is something that have been done to show power since the dawn of mankind.

            There are also PLENTY of much worse stuff that have happened in the series. Heck, here we didn't even see it as compared to plenty of other situations. The scene was definitely disturbing, but we have seen much worse in the series (which interestingly enough didn't even create close to the same amount of reactions).

            [–]Dent18Let me bathe in Bolton blood 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            was forceful

            Watch the scene again, he's very gentle with his hands on her back and getting her into position

            Gentler than one would expect for someone who we know to be a fucked up motherfucker

            [–]jimjengles 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I'm completely traumatized. They literally took one of my favorite scenes from the books, and made one of the worst ten minutes of television I have ever seen. The entire Dorne plot was absolutely terrible. I am still shaking. I trusted you DnD. If you are going to change things from the book- I'm OK with that. But if you continue to try and re-write the plot at least make sure it doesn't watch like a fucking lifetime movie. The monologue from the one sand snake (can't even remember each one because they're all so fucking unimportant and it doesnt matter), Myrcella literally staying on the ground for 5 of the 10 minutes allotted after she falls (the cut to her on the ground was so bad I literally laughed out loud), Jamie's awful sword fighting (I know he's a lefty but come on, he looks like a fucking mouthbreather when he fights now- he would be slaughtered instantaneously by anyone with arms if he actually fought like that), the fight scene in general (just awful. just fucking awful.), the moment when fucking areo walks in and just says "Stop!" and they all immediately stop as if their girlfriends dad walked in on a pre-prom slopjob.

            Ya broke my heart.

            [–]Knightfall2Beware the ides of Marsh 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            TBH I was expecting worse

            [–]ramonfThe Blackfyre are back 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Unfazed, Unsobbed, Unbroken

            [–]lazythinkerThe Lannisters send their regards. 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I think people forget that this show and the books it's based on are set in a period where things like this were not only common but thought of as matter of fact. George R R Martin has said before that this is a medieval-esque society and within those societies women got the short end of the stick unfortunately. To not represent such a society accurately would just make the whole thing pointless.

            That being said, I think the scene itself was largely unnecessary and only done for "shock value". You could have easily just done a scene like what I'm about to write and show that the consummation wasn't a happy or consentual affair.

            Sansa is bathing the next morning a look of hurt on her face that she is doing her best to surpress

            Miranda is washing her hair again smiling widely obvious enjoyment seeing Sansa distraught

            Miranda: Oh don't be so sad. It'll get better once you learn to just do what he wants. Next time don't be so...boring (she says the last line maliciously a call back to their previous conversation)

            Miranda gets up and leaves, walking happily along almost skipping

            Sansa keeping a brave face for as long as Miranda was in the room finally breaks down into tears

            Now surely a scene like this (I am no great scriptwriter obviously) could have been done and just as easily conveyed the same thing the scene last night did.

            [–]Painweaver 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I'm more traumatized by what's happening in Dorne. The Sansa plot is just terribly painful, freshmen year of college level of writing. Why would you start to develop an arc (Sansa going from abused and helpless to becoming littlefinger's apprentice and becoming a player) only to backtrack on it (Sansa bending over and taking it)?

            [–]Carbon_Bishop 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I kept waiting to hear a horn blast from Stannis's approaching army that would save her.

            [–]uatach 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            i don't think anyone should be traumatized by sansa's scenes in this episode. Arya's scenes were worse but miles away from traumatizing. Ridiculous hype for the shell of what once was a good show.

            [–]Keefus727 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I sure wasn't. The second I saw Ramsay in that room with Sansa and Theon I knew exactly what was happening, and so should most of the people on this sub. My friends that I watched it with (who haven't read the books) looked uncomfortable though as it happened.

            [–]vallraffs 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I didn't like how Ramsay addressed Theon when he told him to stay. He just pointed at him and shouted "NO!" and acted like it was a sexual thing. As if Reek watching was what got Ramsay off. And not in a "evil person enjoying the suffering of others" kind of way, but as if he was just some kind of exhibitionist.

            [–]valley_peteSer Ilyn the Villain 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I didn't think it was that bad.....Reek's face was the worst part, and even that didn't make me super uncomfortable.

            [–]Groet 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I am just glad we didn't see her get the bitemarks that fake Arya got in the books.

            [–]Bill_AssassinWe The North! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Me neither. It was uncomfortable but people are clearly overreacting.

            They're exactly like Sansa, thinking that this would all turn out nicely with flowers and lemon-cakes plenty. Sweet summer children...

            [–]TheRoose 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            The scene probably just hit home with a lot of people. Reading it in a book is less traumatic that seeing it. Also it seems half the reddit thinks Sansa had a training montage off screen at the house of black and white. So they really really really don't like to see her fail.

            [–]KarzanGilgriksson 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Yeah. Not at all. This is what happens in Medieval marriage and Sansa knew it was coming.

            [–]Lokhraed [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Summing up, Sansa's arc remains intact, she knew she had to go through fucking Ramsay and did it without crying all over it. (Not on screen, at least)

            But this goddamn scene was a total let down. They talked and talked so much about it, it got to the point where I actually thought I was going to see a dog inside that room. But no, I just heard a dress being torn and Sansa's crying. Big deal.

            [–]oh__ffs [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            I was disturbed but in no way traumatized or offended.

            I feel like every single character in fiction is a tool to further plot, character arcs (their own and others'), and worldbuilding. No one should be exempt. A guy gets his dick cut off, it furthers his arc, his tormentor's arc (as it should), both their plots and the broader plot of 'their region', and further exemplifies exactly what kind of world they inhabit. Same with a woman raped.

            Characters are tools in the author's toolbox. I didn't like it when Theon's penis or testicles were cut off, but it made me feel things. So did Sansa's rape. And god damn, pain is a form of conflict which moves stories. Fiction, guys. Fiction. Sansa doesn't get a free ride. She just doesn't. No one should.

            [–]LewisSkolnick [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Count me in. That was tame compared to what they could have done.

            [–]Padr1no [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            Agreed. It was more fucked up for Theon than Sansa. Theon is the only person that did something against their will.

            [–]StangstagThe Iron Throne is mine by rights [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            The difference is that Dany was raped in the first couple episodes, and her character grew from there. We have been with Sansa for over 4 seasons now, and we have seen her grow as a character. I felt like Sansa's rape was a HUGE stumble, and now I really don't know if she can overcome this.

            Dany grew up as a refugee with her abusive brother, Sansa grew up as the pampered daughter of Ned Stark. There is a difference.

            [–]utnahpishtim [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            I want to believe the outrage is mostly people exaggerating to get attention. I cant believe that people out there thought this was worse than joff killing the babies, pregnant stabbing, red wedding, theon castration etc it makes me feel like I'm surrounded by SJW psychopaths who think rape is worse than genocide

            [–]duclos015 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            What astonishes me is that some people think the rape scene was as shocking as the Red Wedding. Really? No. It's not. Not even close. MAYBE it'd be if the rape scene was actually hard to watch. The only thing traumatizing about it was Alfie's facial expressions.

            [–]Pachy78 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

            I wasn't traumatized. I somehow wanted not to be so bad as it was on the books with Jeyne Poole, but I was mentally prepared for something even worse than what happened (it is GOT after all). I am not sure what the people were expecting... Did we think that Ramsey would let her untouched? She knew she had to consummate the marriage. But you know what I want now? I want her to tell Ramsey about Myranda...

            [–]lvl99 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Waaaaay overhyped.

            People are just being oportunistic. It's a big deviation from the books and a controversial subject. Book purist, d&d haters, and feminist all get to yell loudly together.

            Meanwhile I enjoyed the sceene. It was emotional without being graphic, I think we saw a flash of theon awakening if you watch closely.

            I really don't get people's reaction to this. Watching theons abuse was 10 times worse, close ups of mutilation, actual screams that made me turn down the volume.

            Maybe I wasn't bothered because sansa is unworthy of the name Stark. How does anyone like her after the butcher's boy sceene. Rich brat ready to let the poor die so she can please joff. Pathetic, elitist, and honorless.

            [–]OldWolf2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            How does anyone like her after the butcher's boy sceene. Rich brat ready to let the poor die so she can please joff. Pathetic, elitist, and honorless.

            I think the idea is that the stupid little girl transforms into a strong woman , due to the hardship she experiences after that.

            [–]VisenyaRose 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I though that the end could have been toned down. Hearing her screams and not seeing what was being done to her was horrific. But I have to say, what happened wasn't surprising. I know what happened to Jeyne Poole. I saw it coming. It is interesting how we compare it to Dany though. Especially as people talk about a Dany / Drogo love story. We 'saw' less of Dany's rape I feel.

            [–]rproctor721Honed and ready 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Last night, I called it the controversial scene that wasn't

            At the time, it got some folks who wanted to make it out as the worst thing ever. Glad that others agree with me now.

            [–]Svarthofthi -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Yeah, nah, not really. Horrors are horrors. Clearly, from the books, it was far more graphic more so given that you have to use your imagination and the words really scrawl out the horror of the act itself.

            I imagined this would happen though, rape is a real touchy thing. Especially today.

            [–]RhaegarSchmaegar -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            ''...when some prick puts 'unpopular opinion' on an extremely common opinion and gets loadsa upvotes'' - there are loads of these douchebags, fuck these guys!

            [–]ughalready -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I can't believe that a woman had sex on her wedding night. The horror! The horror!

            [–][削除されました]  (10子コメント)

            [deleted]

              [–]WintersLexDon't Wrestle With Mudd 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I'm genuinely concerned about your interpersonal interactions if you think "making a bit of pillow talk" somehow makes it not rape.

              [–]LadyDondarrionLady of Blackhaven 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

              he proceeds to have rough, pretty normal sex with her.

              She was crying and screaming.

              [–]lvl99 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              She was groaning and crying. Watch theon being flayed for what screaming sounds like.

              Exaggerations get tiring.

              [–]MohnJaddenLunarSuper Greyjoy Brothers 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              What the fuck dude

              [–]garlicdeathJoff, Joff, rhymes with kof 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

              I wasn't that bothered by the scene. That said you're coming off as pretty ignorant about rape.

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