(cache) Minor drama when /r/hearthstone user doesn't understand what us wrong with using Windows XP. : SubredditDrama


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[–]mrtman327I'm insecure about a lot of things, butt sex is not one of them. 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 9 時間前 (0子コメント)

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I find it quite interesting that internet is full of hostile people: in this thread I have asked where is the drama exactly - and never got a single answer. Just downvotes.

Let's take a look at that other thread: some guy wrote that Windows XP is bad. I asked what is bad with it, apart the fact that it is no longer patched by MS. I did not get any specific answer, just people telling me that it is unsafe. I asked for any specific examples that show how less safe it is than a Win7 or Win8 setup - and never got any example.

Wikipedia shows that currently around 15% of the computer still use Windows xP ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems ) and somehow we do not hear about those systems being incredibly compromised, especially when used by people who know how to take care of their computer. Installing Windows 7 or 8 will not help an user in any way, especially if they behave stupid (e.g. install software from unsafe places) - the computer will probably still get compromised by viruses.

I am fully aware that using Windows XP means that there is a slightly bigger security risk, but it is a simple tradeof between slightly higher risk (with noone showing an exact example of this risk) and productivity. Currently the computer simply works and will probably work for quite some time.

And to answer your question directly: why would I want to install Linux on a perfectly fine computer that is currently running Windows XP? Everything works, the computer has no viruses or trojans, it allows me to run every program I need (some of them do not work on Linux) and the system has a decent interface that allows nice productivity (although I do not do any work stuff on it). Installing Linux only gives me some sort of an improvement of security - at the cost of wasting time - it actually takes time to setup the machine and it would be lacking the programs that I currently use (e.g. MS Office, Hearthstone), not to mention wasted productivity. (I dont know and I dont care if running those could be possible with WINE, even setting it up would be a simple waste of time). There is an old saying: if it ain't broke, dont fix it.

I wonder if my reply here is also considered "drama". I just wanted to point out that your question does not help me in any way, since I know exactly what I am doing: by running Windows XP on an old machine - I have a system that works fine and is productive, but this trades for a very minor increase of possible risk of the system being compromised. But with a firewall and antivirus program, the jump of risk is minimal and I believe that if something bad would happen - e.g. infecting the computer with some sort of a virus, it could also happen on Windows 7 or 8.

No offense, but your "help" that tells to install Linux does not sound like any sort of help. You sound like a person that believes that Windows XP is completely unsafe and every instalation is full of viruses and other hostile programs. That's not true. 15% of computer still use this system - and most of them probably work fine. Recommending to install Linux makes you sound ignorant (do we have the drama now?).

I could install Windows 7 (if I wanted to), but it would mean that the computer would run slower and that I would have to waste time setting-up the machine: installing Windows, reinstalling all the software - and a simple cost/benefit analysis shows that my time is not worth the slight increase of possible (and not hard to quantify) risk, since I will probably get rid of this computer in some time and get a new one.

This is what was discussed in that other thread - and apparently discussing things on reddit is "drama". Especially as not a single person in that other thread could point out any example of a security risk in Windows XP. I think one guy wrote that Windows XP does not have DEP, but he was wrong - and in fact, he was a civilized person - and admitted the mistake.

I wonder if my reply here will also be downvoted.

TL:DR I dont need it.

[–]ReganDryke 16 ポイント17 ポイント18 ポイント 13 時間前 (30子コメント)

It's fine to keep XP on an old hardware and on a computer that doesn't have anything you don't want to see stolen or deleted.

But you have to keep in mind that :

XP doesn't support 64 bits and that recent hardware and driver aren't supported on XP.
XP isn't supported by Microsoft anymore. Which mean that it exist flaw in the system that will not be patched and that can be exploited to gain control of your computer and your data. Having a firewall and an antivirus will not protect you against that type of menace mainly because people will not specially search for it. (Anti virus dev have a hard time keeping up with recently released malware so I highly doubt they will invest time in non supported system)
It's not supported by any kind of recent application.

If you have more questions, feel free to do so.

[+]b4b スコアが基準値未満のコメント-18 ポイント-17 ポイント-16 ポイント 13 時間前* (29子コメント)

So let's the "drama" continue.

1) I am not sure what do you mean when you write that XP does not support 64 bits. There is a 64bit version of XP. If you are supposed to be the guy that can "answer questions" - you should know this. Also, I am not sure why would you want a 64 bit version of the system, if for example, your system only has 2GB of RAM.

2) Please give me a specific example of this security risk that currently exists (+affects Windows XP) - and is not dealt with by a simple combination of antivirus and firewall. You are writing about general principles (what are true), but you are not providing any real world example of a virus or trojan that compromises the 15% of world computers that still use Win XP. I guess you cannot provide an example of something that does not exist? (or at least we do not know it does not exist, but the same could be said about any operating system)

3) Can you provide me with examples of applications that do not work on Windows XP? The ones I need seem to work. I dont play many computer games and the only recent one that I play (HearthStone) - works. Those computer games that do not work, usually require better hardware anyway (and if I had better hardware, I would install Windows 7; also who said I do not have better hardware, maybe I have few computers?). All other programs that I need work. I dont want to be hostile, but dont you find it quite strange that you know what programs do I need? I thought I knew my needs quite well.. (oh I guess this is the dramatic part).

I do not have any "questions" to you. You did not tell me anything that I do not know already and you did not provide me with any examples of some real security risk for Windows XP. So far there is no specific virus or trojan that compromises every WinXp installation (or at least - we do not know about it). It is pretty sad how people on the interenet think they are helping, while in reality they are just stating opinions. Not everyone is a computer illiterate newb. I have few computers, one of them is an old laptop with WindowsXP - apparently I should throw it away, since there is a slightly higher security risk while I run it from time to time, due to the fact Windows XP is no longer updated. Well, there is still security risk of a zero day in Win7 or Win8 - and life actually consists of us judging risks all the time. Maybe I dont want to throw away my laptop? Currently it works fine - and so far no one provided me a real life example why it is unsafe to use, apart from the principle that an unpatched system is less safe. Actually risk can be measured - and no one quantified the increase of risk that happens if I decide to stick with Win XP.

TL:DR you wrote "It's fine to keep XP on an old hardware and on a computer that doesn't have anything you don't want to see stolen or deleted." - so you in fact did agree with me. Wouldnt this mean that there is no drama?

[–]MilhouseJr 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 12 時間前 (26子コメント)

I'm not gonna answer your points because there are two threads full of answers that you refuse to accept. I am gonna say that XP is bad because there have been three full OS releases since, soon to be four, that have IMPROVED upon each other in some form, and where they devolved their younger sibling patched it back up. By continuing to use XP you're essentially dismissing the efforts put into those full releases. Because you prefer how the fucking taskbar works.

I've had arguments with people claiming 7 is better than 8 because the UI, and XP is better than Vista because compatibility, but to argue that XP is better than all of them is ludicrous, and over a personal preference at that. There's nothing stopping you from adopting Win8 and either installing classicshell to appease your using habits, or learning a more modern interface (that really isn't that hard to use if you give it 5 minutes to organise) that you're far more likely to encounter in day to day life. You've been told why XP is a security risk, so the ball's in your court.

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[–]R_Sholes 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 11 時間前 (4子コメント)

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[–]MilhouseJr 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 12 時間前 (8子コメント)

[+]b4b スコアが基準値未満のコメント-18 ポイント-17 ポイント-16 ポイント 11 時間前* (7子コメント)

I can compare the possible risk with few other factors: e.g. time lost on installing a newer system, or the fact that this new system work probably work poorly on old hardware leading to inefficiencies. But since you are the expert: quantify me the risk. Or did you just say that the risk is minimal and can be ignored? (because this would mean that you just agreed with me?)

*btw. let's take the drama up to eleven and try a different approach ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum ): you just told me to "read what everyone else has said". In Nazi Germany "everyone" supported Hitler. Does this mean that you would also support him, since you always agree with others, even if they are wrong?

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1" :-)

[–]MilhouseJr 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 11 時間前 (6子コメント)

oh my god, you actually tried to compare me to hitler to win an internet argument

Here's the risk in the most basic laymans terms I can muster: YOU ARE A LIABILITY. By using outdated software, you pose a risk as an entry point for malware to access a network. If you become infected with a botnet, every machine connected to you is at an elevated risk. This includes WAN connections such as the Internet, email, filesharing and, of course, external media.

Of course, you know this, because you've clearly read every reply you've received and taken it on board. Why else would you leave the actual topic at hand and instead try and draw a comparison between the Nazi party and everyone telling you you're wrong?

Oh, and "everyone supported Hitler" is a very telling sign of your ignorance, considering he effectively made himself the sole lawmaker in the country by way of the Enabling Act (which was voted for under duress).

Occams Razor dictates that the simplest answer is the best. In the question "are you a troll or a fucking idiot?" I'd argue Occams favours the latter.

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[–]fm87 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 6 時間前* (8子コメント)

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[–]fm87 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 5 時間前* (4子コメント)

These are not bugs, they are vulnerabilities.

Vulnerabilities are something that can be used to gain remote access, administrator priveleges, and execute code without you even noticing anything or even being at the computer.

You don't need any input, this is where you don't seem to understand.

If I had a botnet scanning you right now, and saw you were running XP, I would be in, with admin access, and the ability to run ANYTHING I want, without you needing to click on something, download anything, or whatever.

All I need to do is find a target. And considering how much of this is an automated process where I do literally nothing, I really might not even need to run anything. I can just pick an exploit that is open in your system and let a bot find it or any other probe. Give it a minute or two and there you go. I have admin access, have changed the user password, encrypted all your files, stolen any and all passwords/usernames you use, and you didn't even notice.

Not only did you not notice, but your AV didn't warn you, your firewall didn't warn you, you would be completely oblivious.

You're exposing yourself to potential identity theft you fucking stupid TOOL.

And don't kid yourself. You don't just browse subreddits and play HS. Unless you're telling me you never, not even a little bit, use a computer for anything else?

What was that you were going on about all "herp derp productivity" then?

Surely you don't mean "productivity" by playing HS and browsing the subreddit. If doing 2 things to you is something so major that simply combining taskbar icons (which is an option in post-vista OSes by the way) can disrupt your "workflow", you need a serious dose of reality.

You are not ignoring threats, you are being willfully ignorant to them. There is a key difference here.

Ignoring a threat means you let it be, you hope it causes you no trouble but you know it's a severe problem that cannot be fixed at the moment.

Being willfully ignorant means you convince everyone that the vulnerability does not exist, and that "it's totes fine bro". You're so adamant about it with your willful ignorance that you also decide "oh, it's fine that those threats exist, they won't affect me". Meanwhile some skiddie has already set up your system to be used for a botnet or bitcoin miner or whatever skiddies are doing right now.

Your windows password means nothing.

Your AV means nothing.

Your firewall means nothing.

Oh, you only use it for reddit and HS? I hope you don't use those passwords, or usernames, or any combination of such AT ALL anywhere else or I can get into other areas too. How about your google/iphone account? Or your steam account? How about your bank?

I can already see your claim is bullshit. You seem to play some Diablo 2, you also seem to possibly enjoy Metal Slug in emulators.

Oh, you watch Top Gear? I bet you're doing that through the BBC iPlayer then? Or maybe a torrent? Or whatever service BBCA provides if you're in the US?

But you don't live in the US. Probably UK (or Canada) given your use of CV instead of resume and SMS instead of 'texts'. No wait, looks like Canada? I forget who uses what terms where. In any case.....

I could go deeper if I felt you were worth the time, but that was just on your reddit comment history for ~3 pages and a VERY quick skim. And look at the info I can go on if I were to dig something more solid up.

I'm stopping there just so I can show you how stupid you're being.

If one were to go far enough, they could easily get your name, address, IP, phone IP, pretty much fucking any password or username you ever use or have used.

This is what an actual hacker would do, they would go about finding information about you they needed, target you, and fuck shit up.

But they don't even need to do that usually, typically a simple port scan or request for the operating system will be enough to get them to target you.

Once they're in "oh man I have his account names but not passwords".

DO NOT FEAR MY FRIEND! SOCIAL ENGINEERING IS HERE!

All they'd need to do there is dig up info on you like I just did there. At that point (had I kept going) checking where your username was used, if any other terminology or your typing style is sufficient, you seem to comment in a certain way about certain topics I have a program that can sort through this, oh what's this? Your username or password was linked to an email?

Well looks like that email is linked to a bunch of other things too, before you know it they have your CV/resume and any data on it, oh hey there's your facebook!

etc. etc.

Don't be a fucking twat just because you think you're right.

If you honestly "don't care" then I hope you're alright with some kid in S. Korea or Russia using your bank account to transfer funds into his bitcoin wallet.

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[–]ReganDryke 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 12 時間前 (0子コメント)

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[+]b4b スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント 7 時間前 (14子コメント)

[–]winterdplease no copyrino my flairatola 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 6 時間前 (6子コメント)

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[–]winterdplease no copyrino my flairatola 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 5 時間前 (4子コメント)

The laptop has WinXP, an up to date antivirus and a firewall.

This is like driving a car with your seatbelt on, but it doesn't have doors, airbags, crumple zones, or anti-lock brakes. You technically could run XP - but you'll only if you completely sandbox it. Those computers would be crippled until your software engineering team can get your XP-dependent applications compatible with 7.

How exactly?

I don't see anybody in this thread saying your stone-age computer will ruin the Internet. According to a Microsoft Security Intelligence Report, Windows 7 is almost five times more secure than XP. Is that enough evidence for you? There's a ton of malware out that targets XP, and now that support for it has been abandoned, new security vulnerabilities will never be fixed. If you disagree with the fact that XP is less secure than 7, I'll need evidence to support that.

But hey - let's downvote the guy because you think that you know what is the best for me?

Yes, some of us do. Are you aware that there are people out there who spend their careers going around to companies and secretly attempting to break into their network? There are people out there who know better than you. Hopefully, with enough downvotes you'll get to the point where you need to wait ten minutes between comments, it'll give you some time to re-educate yourself.

I do have a few questions for you. If you were responsible for somebody's computer network, would you continue running XP if you had the manpower, equipment, and funding to upgrade to 7? Would you fight against a superior and co-workers telling you to upgrade your PCs, or would you sacrifice it for "productivity?" This superior already got written approval for the project from the CIO and from the affected users.

[–]b4b -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 5 時間前* (3子コメント)

Am I a company? Or some guy who has a crappy laptop that is sometimes used to play some computer games and post on reddit? According to your post this seems that my laptop is the worst thing ever. (I dont want to scare you, but according to wikipedia, 15% of computers run Windows XP)

If this crappy laptop is 5 times less secure than Win7, then let it be. I am not planning to total my laptop, just because it is a bit more risky than using a newer one - especially as I do not use it for anything important. The benefit is not really clear (more safety for me? what kind of safety exactly?), while the costs are quite clear: I won't have a laptop that can be used from time to time to play some computer games. Another type of cost would be the time wasted to install Win7 (that I would also have to buy) and to install all the programs. It is also worth to mention the productivity lost due to the fact that Win7 would run very slow on ancient hardware.

I do have a few questions for you. If you were responsible for somebody's computer network, would you continue running XP if you had the manpower, equipment, and funding to upgrade to 7?

Maybe I dont have the manpower, equipment or funding? (why would I buy a new laptop just to have one that I use from time to time when this one works quite fine - and maybe has some higher risk of being compromised, but I dont have anything important on it anyway).

And if we speak of general productivity - I believe that classic shell allows more productivity than the newer interfaces (Win7 can sort of be adjusted to behave similar, but not exactly the same; I am talking about pure OS and not getting some additional software). Most people in IT tend to completely ignore productivity and assume that most employees (of other departments than IT) can setup their machines to behave in a more productive manner - what is absolutely untrue. Most users are not that tech saavy; in addition the newer interfaces straight up suck when it comes to productivity (if Win 8 interface is so good then why it is not adapted by people and Microsoft partially got rid of it in Win 8.1?).

[–]winterdplease no copyrino my flairatola 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 5 時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]winterdplease no copyrino my flairatola 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 5 時間前 (1子コメント)

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[–]Dragovic 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 6 時間前 (6子コメント)

[–]b4b -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 5 時間前 (5子コメント)

I actually am not doing anything important. I have a very old laptop that I use to play some HearthStone and browse the HearthStone subreddit. According to what I have read here, this seems to be incredibly dangerous to me and everyone else (at least, according to the number of downvotes).

I dont want to waste time to get a newer OS for this laptop, since it is quite crappy and Windows 7 will run slow on it (not to mention the time wasted to setup everything).

According to nearly everyone - my computer is broken. But so far no one gave me any real example - how exactly. I was insulted few times, heavily downvoted, even brought to this subreddit, but so far no examples. I just keep hearing that my computer is compromised. But never learn how. Few people here supposedly are "computer researchers" (IMHO they are just trolls) and it is pretty funny to see them struggle to provide any fact. I am mostly downvoted based on opinions. The general opinion seems to be that WindowsXP is incredibly unsafe. I asked how exactly? And the "shitstorm" began. It's not that I say that it is safe, I personally believe that the possible risks are not worth the effort of getting a newer OS

No offense to you - you just admitted that you threw some random names of some "bugs you could remember". According to my knowledge, none of them is really connected to WinXP itself. When I pointed it out to you - you ignored the part, so I guess we agree, that Heart Bleed does not affect WinXp?

[–]Dragovic 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 5 時間前 (4子コメント)

You probably wouldn't have gotten so many down votes if you stated that to begin with. Most of your other posts mention work environments where security is a big issue so it sounds like you were talking about a work laptop this entire time. You've been applying everything everyone said to the wrong situation. If it's just you playing Hearthstone and browsing reddit, then you might as well just stick with that. Maybe look into Linux since some of the lighter distros run faster on older hardware than XP but there's no real need for that though you shouldn't use it for banking or anything.

No one said your computer was broken, it's your OS that's broken. Windows XP is incredibly unsafe and that's not an opinion, that's a fact that can be backed up by research. There probably won't be too many examples because most websites aren't going to bother posting updates on security threats for a discontinued OS. Those people claiming to be researchers are probably lying but what they told you about it being unsafe is right. For your situation it probably isn't worth getting a new OS but that's not the situation you were talking about with everyone so your situation isn't relevant to the discussion you started. Also your responses about why you should stick to Windows XP are all opinions which are wrong in the work environment situtaion you were talking about.

I thought I did address what you said. I said it technically affects XP. It affects it indirectly but it also affects any OS that can go online.

[+]b4b スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント-4 ポイント 5 時間前* (3子コメント)

[–]Dragovic 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 4 時間前* (1子コメント)

Even with firewall and antivirus you can still be infected by trojans and viruses. I don't think there's too many antivirus program that catches 100% of the already recently discovered things that can infect a computer so on an OS which isn't being updated, a single miss could be a huge problem since a lot of exploits patched in later version of Windows exist in Windows XP and will stay unpatched.

You're expectations for this sub were too high. There's a reason /r/subredditdramadrama, /r/subredditdramaX3, and /r/subredditdramaX4 exist. These subs generate just as much drama as they post, maybe more. Also it's a pretty big sub and I think it's a default so the quality is obviously pretty low.

Edit: What did that other user find in your history to bully you about. I skimmed through the first couple of pages and all I found was that you're constantly on the hearthstone subs which I guess I could probably a find a way to bully you about but that seems like a bit of a stretch.

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[–]winterdplease no copyrino my flairatola 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 4 時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]fm87 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 11 時間前* (4子コメント)

IT Security specialist here. (Jr. Security Analyst, Certified Ethical Hacker)

Holy fucking shit you're an idiot.

You realize by using an EOL OS you've probably already got a multitude of backdoors in your system, correct?

None of these will be detected by your antivirus or anything else.

Your head is so far up your own ass, it's hilarious.

I am fully aware that using Windows XP means that there is a slightly bigger security risk

No bro. It's not "slightly higher". It's MUCH higher.

It's only "slightly higher" in the same way that jumping out of an airplane without a parachute is only "slightly" more dangerous than brushing your teeth.

not a single person in that other thread could point out any example of a security risk in Windows XP.

Anyone with 3 minutes of time can get into your system, get complete control, and either wipe it, or spy on you for ages and you would never figure it out.

Seriously dude, XP is EOL for a reason.

We use it as an example OS when training pentesters for a reason. It's fucking quick and easy to get into.

Shit, with 7 and 8 I need to actually do shit, but for XP? There are enough programs and scripts out there that I don't need to do a damn thing. Let it run for a minute or two (usually far less than a minute) and I'm in. Complete remote admin access and the user won't even notice.

By the way, the 15% of computers still using XP? Majority of them are not connected to the internet, or are not directly connected to the internet in such a way that exposes them.

Going off your post, this is not the case for you, and you are exposed.

You're exposing yourself, /u/b4b, and I find that quite arousing.

Or to put it another way, if I were to run a risk assessment on your machine, it would immediately fail.

[–]mc-lunar -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 5 時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]fm87 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 5 時間前* (2子コメント)

If you're already in IT just pick up a few skills and get some certs. They are ALL based on pre-test cramming and not skills, so don't worry for the initial ones. Cisco is really bad with this. Start with A+, net+ would be helpful, and Sec+.

Your employer may reimburse you.

If you're not, find a college with an infosec/cybersec program or something. You'll also probably need to pass a background check, so you better be clean there.

But you really need to learn on your own for a lot of it, in a sandboxed environment not connected to the internet.

Some programming skills will do you wonders. Nothing horribly major, a "beginning <language x>" course where language x is an actual 'used' language (not VB) is largely sufficient, but you should continue if you can.

The FBI does not fuck around if you accidentally let something out, or otherwise do something 'accidental'.

Really though this field isn't really "solidified" yet. We kind of gloss over "IT security" in the same way we gloss over IT in general. You can be a sysadmin and transfer to security, or a net admin, or a general errand boy, or even a software dev.

There can be 500 people in IT, all doing a vastly different job with vastly different educational backgrounds.

Similar thing for security, but with a smaller scope.

[–]mc-lunar -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 5 時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]fm87 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 5 時間前 (0子コメント)

Seriously, it's a very "open" field with a shit ton of different types of positions and different variances on those positions.

It's like the earlier days of IT where one "IT guy" can do several things while another "IT guy" can be doing several different other things.

There are no real "clear" definitions so if you're up for learning, you can probably get something in the way of security without much of a hassle on your end.

You need a passion to learn and a passion for this type of thing though. Holy fucking shit guy, the amount of logs I parse through even with automation, the amount of info I need to research on a given day, and the amount of reports and bullshit I write to management is fucking insane to most people.

I mean shit, the Infosec guy who taught me everything was originally at that company for helpdesk support. Now he's CIO.

[–]meloia 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 5 時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]eganisdonefollow me on instagram @eganisdone <3 <3 <3 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 13 時間前 (5子コメント)

[–]browwiw 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 12 時間前 (4子コメント)

[+]b4b スコアが基準値未満のコメント-19 ポイント-18 ポイント-17 ポイント 12 時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]Damouse 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 9 時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]browwiw 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 12 時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]fm87 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 10 時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]nichtschleppend 24 ポイント25 ポイント26 ポイント 17 時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]askinnydudelens flair 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 14 時間前 (0子コメント)

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