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[–]rwbj 568 ポイント569 ポイント  (60子コメント)

Hi /u/kn0thing /u/audobot

I believe you are intentionally presenting these data in a misleading fashion. I've already posted this on voat, but I'd certainly like to hear what you have to say about it rather than me just calling shenanigans without giving you a chance to clarify or show that my statements are themselves misleading or false.


First, here are the sources:

  • 0 The blog post which references the survey.

  • 1 Admin stating that "about 21 million saw the invite [to take the survey.]"

  • 2 The survey brief mentioning "you gave us 16,817 responses."

  • 3 The survey admin clarifying he truly has no understanding of selection bias. When somebody else brought this up he stated, "We were pretty careful about showing the survey invite in a randomized way. This is pretty standard survey methodology - taking a randomized, representative subset."

  • 4 The "scrubbed" survey data in CSV for anybody that'd like to look at it.

Citing #1 and #2, 99.92% of people chose to not participate in this survey. For anybody here that might not be familiar with selection bias, it's the reason internet sourced anonymous surveys are simply (and literally) not used when seeking actionable data. People who opt-in to surveys without other sorts of incentivization (which itself can also introduce bias depending on which people are attracted to said incentives) disproportionately represent those who are driven to do so for reasons that are generally not representative of the userbase as a whole. For instance upset or unusually enthusiastic users are going to be more likely than not to take surveys on the quality of a site. Randomizing who sees the survey does absolutely nothing to deal with this when only a biased sample opts in to taking it.


Now for the more interesting stuff.

The above all shows a lack of technical competence, but it's nothing particularly surprising and I think we can safely invoke Hanlon's Razor. However, now we're about to enter into the realm of mental gymnastics used by people trying to validate something that is clearly unpopular.

  • "50% of people who wouldn’t recommend reddit cited hateful or offensive content and community as the reason why."
  • "3.25% of respondents cited hateful or offensive content as a reason they would not recommend Reddit."

The first is Reddit's phrasing, the second is the in context figure from the data itself. 93.5% of respondents actually would recommend Reddit. They take the view of a minuscule minority (which works out to 543 users in this case) and rephrase to make it seem vastly larger than it is. But this gets much more interesting very fast.

The words "hate" and "offensive" (or any variations of such) don't even show up on the survey.

The only way people could mention this would be in the free form response category. Unfortunately those responses have all been deleted from the public data, citing privacy concerns so it's absolutely impossible to verify or determine exactly how they're coming up with this figure. We do know that, citing their own report, there were only 111 responses to why people were extremely dissatisfied. So we're left to assume that the vast majority of these responses from people who would not recommend the site and find the content "hateful or offensive" actually aren't extremely dissatisfied with the site........

I'll sum up with quoting the Reddit admins' interpretation of these data that was shared on the blog post

TL;DR: We are unhappy with harassing behavior on reddit; we have survey data that show our users are, too. So we’ve improved our practices to better curb harassment of individuals on reddit.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

[–]muhThrowaway2 126 ポイント127 ポイント  (4子コメント)

This needs more attention.

Reddit's "PR firm" is selectively answering questions in this thread like politicians do.

[–]AnonymousInAtl 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Let's try to keep the discussion about Rampart, folks.

[–]6apcyk 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (1子コメント)

At least he doesn't mention the CEO... I hear that gets you shadowbanned.

[–]gentdill 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have survey data that shows thats true

[–]ABadManComes 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And its hilarious. I immediately this guy of the AMAs

[–]runnerrun2 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (1子コメント)

New management please.

[–]srtor 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ellen Pao must go.

[–]ApexRedditr 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think I'm about ready to pack up and leave this place. Been through the great Digg migration. Nearly time for the great Reddit migration. Voat has a long way to go and is in desperate need of a good android client but it has potential.

Anyone want to work on a voat app? I can handle UI design, you handle code (aka all the actual hard stuff haha)

[–]notdrunkinflorida 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Voat is running on a MySQL db with no caching as far as I can tell, it might be a short migration.

[–]rag3train 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I want to gold this but I don't want to give reddit any more money

[–]BraveSquirrel 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Gold is lame anyway.

[–]oblivioustoobvious 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The benefits may be but it has the ability to bring a comment attention. That's not "lame".

[–]GimmickNG 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

changetip is your friend mate, worth more than fools' reddit gold anyway.

[–]johnyann 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This needs to go to the top.

Would give you gold, but honestly, it really isn't that great.

[–]superwookee 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for your well written and cogent response. I hope this makes top comment.

[–]Katastic_Voyage 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Someone just got STATISTIC BURNED.

[–]audobot[A] -23 ポイント-22 ポイント  (15子コメント)

I appreciate that you clearly put a lot of time and thought into this. Thanks for caring about reddit enough to bother! I stand by this data, and genuinely don't feel that we're spinning it.

By the way, you mention that we're "trying to validate something that is clearly unpopular." I suspect your definition of "clear unpopularity" is based on ... public commentary. This is a great example of why surveys like the one we ran are helpful. People can express opinions and concerns that they feel might be unpopular. When there are patterns in that data, we take notice.

There are a few things to consider when addressing product issues - severity and size. One might prioritize a less prevalent issue which causes horrible things to happen, over more prevalent and less severe issue (say, visual appeal.) Hence, while there might be a lower number of people who answered the question about why they wouldn't recommend reddit, or are extremely dissatisfied, its pretty important to us to know what about reddit would make them feel that way.

For that reason too, we wanted to get the opinions of more than those who follow the blog; we want to hear from the lurkers, and those who hadn't created accounts. What was holding them back?

Keep in mind that we asked all respondents what they dislike about reddit. Out of ~16k total responses, we got ~10k responses to that question. Even relatively satisfied users (those who put down 6 or 7 for overall satisfaction) can have things to dislike about the site. And the top issue was community, at 25%.

On recommendations Your interpretation that 93.5% of people would recommend reddit is simply incorrect. We did not ask whether people would or would not recommend reddit - we asked if they had in the past (asking about actual behavior is much better than predicted behavior), and provided two options for "no." It's an important distinction.

  • The overall number for people who had recommended reddit is 75%.
  • 17% answered that question with "No, but I might"
  • 6% answered with "No, and I probably won't."

This is all in the spreadsheet. I suspect you may have only looked at the "No, and I probably won't" number alone, but not at the question itself (first row.)

On the lack of the words "hate" and "offensive" Had we asked about hate and offensive content specifically, that would likely add in another sort of bias, a la "Now that you mention it, I suppose I have been harassed." Those words appeared, unprompted by us, in open ended responses. Again, those responses were questions generically asking what they didn't like about reddit, and follow-ups to why people were extremely dissatisfied, and wouldn't recommend it. That so many felt so intensely about it (severity) and also that it was the top issue across those questions, speaks pretty strongly.

On selection bias (the fact that people who opt-in to surveys are different from people who take other surveys) It is certainly true that selection bias affected this survey, as it does all surveys. Some people just don't take surveys. There has been much discussion as to whether the opinions of these people are vastly different from the populace. We'll just never know. Were we to post the survey on the reddit blog as suggested here, I agree that it would get a certain set of reddit users. I disagree that they would necessarily be representative of active community members. It would simply represent those who read the blog. If you look at the data on how people use the site, a number of them just browse (and have been doing so for 3+ years), or just look at one or a few subreddits. We care about their experience, even if they don't care about the official reddit blog.

On incentivizing users to participate in surveys Providing incentives (usually money) will increase response rate, but won't really affect quality. It's also less effective over time, and we intend to continue doing surveys like this over time. Here's a good pdf.

On response rate This was a pretty long survey (thanks again to those who made it through), promoted through an ad. Online ads typically have a pretty low conversion rate. The response rate was actually a little higher than what we'd expected, and we're happy with it. Also, "Choosing not to participate," as you put it, is different from "had better things to do," wanted to read a post instead, or good old ad blindness.

[–]rwbj 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You're backpedaling on your own words. You (or whomever wrote this writeup) stated:

"50% of people who WOULDN'T recommend reddit cited hateful or offensive content and community as the reason why."

That clearly does not include "No [I haven't recommended Reddit], but I might." which you're now saying it was calculated with. Since you removed the data your comments are based on from the survey results, I was left with no choice but to take your words at face value. It doesn't change the point in the least - which is among those many words the one thing you completely failed to respond to. You continue to misrepresent the data. You continue to do that even here. You wrote:

those responses were questions generically asking what they didn't like about reddit, and follow-ups to why people were extremely dissatisfied, and wouldn't recommend it. That so many felt so intensely about it (severity) and also that it was the top issue across those questions, speaks pretty strongly.

Keeping in mind thanks to the fact that this is an anonymous opt-in internet survey you're going to bring out the extremes, here is how people rated their satisfaction with the community on Reddit:

  • extremely dissatisfied = 395 = 2.4%
  • very dissastisfied = 612 = 3.7%
  • dissatisfied = 1240 = 7.5%
  • neutral = 3006 = 18.2%
  • satisfied = 4470 = 27%
  • very satisfied = 4238 = 25.6%
  • extremely satisfied = 2601 = 15.7%

Even in this biased survey all of the dissatisfied tiers combined are less than any given neutral or positive tier of feedback. The only thing that the levels of dissatisfaction speak strongly to is your confirmation bias. In general if you give any set of relatively straight forward data, as these are, to a mathematician or statistician they're going to end up deriving pretty similar overriding characteristics from those data. And in this case nobody in the world is going to say, "You know. I think you have a big problem with community dissatisfaction here." Yet here you are taking this data and trying to twist it into supporting what you want it to say.

I'm going to have to break the bad news to you, and there's no easy way to say this. Your users, even in this silly survey, are actually pretty happy with the community on Reddit.

[–]JamesColesPardon 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Keep it up dude.

When I grow up I want to be like /u/rwbj

[–]itsfreedomstupid 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No joke. Everyone needs to see how he's making the admins look like the politicians they are.

I tried submitting this to bestof, but messed up and only linked to the original rather than this comment with context. I'd rather wait or have someone else post than only show have the humiliation.

[–]JamesColesPardon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'll do it when the kid goes to bed.

[–]Teeder 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The spinning in this post is triggering me. Please stop and provide me a safe space

[–]DavidByron2 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It is certainly true that selection bias affected this survey, as it does all surveys.

No, what you have there is called a SLOP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

[–]NEWater 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Please give us your survey methodologies and dataset, and let us analyze this for ourselves.

[–]gwsb 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

[On response rate] This was a pretty long survey (thanks again to those who made it through), promoted through an ad. Online ads typically have a pretty low conversion rate. The response rate was actually a little higher than what we'd expected, and we're happy with it.

Wait... so this is why I didn't get invited to the survey? Because you (proverbially) chose the method with THE LEAST POSSIBLE EXPECTATION OF VISIBILITY? Really? That's how reddit actively seeks user participation and feedback? I am happy you were impressed with the response rate being higher than you expected it to be, really makes it clear just how important it was to get a low response rate.

Do you know why this was chosen as a delivery method for the survey?

[–]firex726 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yea, ignoring Adblock, how many people would be trusting enough to carry through with a survey in today's internet?

A popup, stickied post, or PM would have been far better.

[–]gwsb 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Emailing everyone that has a verified email, emailing everyone that already are an active part of reddit... you know, all the people that are participants of the multiple reddit exchanges.

No, let's put it in an ad instead, fully expecting no one to answer it. A bit crass, if you ask me.

[–]transgalthrowaway 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It makes sense that reddit cares more about the satisfaction of users who look at ads.

[–]Phokus1983 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You would make a mighty fine politician.

[–]go1dfish 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

One of three things is true:

  1. Your targeted demographics for the survey and actions differ enormously from the active subscribed users.
  2. Reddit's comment voting/sorting and or cheating detection is flawed.
  3. Your survey methodology/analysis was flawed

Would you agree with this analysis? I suspect #1 is the case here.

[–]RoryTheFishmonger -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

RWJB says, I've already posted this on VOAT.

My posts at VOAT never fared so well.

The VOAT censor deleted one hundred and two posts to V/AlexJones, all of which disclosed his ties to the CIA thence Zionism, after reloading them in a new SubVoat, Admin decreed it would remain invisible.

When I post to the new sub V/AlexJonesPerMT, the post loads but does not appear on the V/ALL page.

When I attempt to post at V/AlexJones, the site page from whence over one hundred of my posts were deleted, I get the message ..

You are not authorized to submit links or start discussions in this subverse. Please contact subverse moderators for authorization.

I told the VOAT censor he or she can expect the same treatment censors got post the defeat of Nazi Germany in 1945, they were charged, tried convicted and hanged!

All of my stuff calls for the prosecution and execution of the Jews who perpetrated the 911 attacks, September 11, 2001.

And discloses the presence of the Mossad cell located in Brisbane Au. whence came the Celebrating Jews of 911, as well it reveals the links the same Mossaders have to VOAT.

I think it is absolutely reasonable to hate the Jews who did 911, and the Zionist inspired media and political circus will have it the attacks were by OBL, whatever the dignitaries at Reddit and VOAT think!