Promote ideas, protect people

intellos · 7 時間前

I'm a bit confused. What actually changed here? Was Harassment not already against the rules?

got_milk4 · 10 時間前

This is a very abstract blog post - what, exactly, do the admins plan to do when complains of harassment are submitted?

overallprettyaverage · 10 時間前

Still waiting on some word on the state of shadow banning

70616c616b6b6164616e · 10 時間前

What if it's the mods of a subreddit (like /r/india) doing the harassment?

cjcrashoveride · 9 時間前

Wouldn't the easier solution have just been to make the report button actually, ya know, do something?

Kalium · 8 時間前

Looking at the comments, and what's been upvoted, it becomes clear to me that there is a problem. Reflexive cynicism and distrust rule the day.

/u/kn0thing and /u/5days it seems that Reddit has lost the enthusiastic trust and support of its community. How do you plan to address this?

Ignitionmix · 5 時間前

Here is a list of potentially worthy alternatives I compiled earlier (courtesy of /r/redditalternatives):

Snapzu - Very visual, lots of great articles and videos. XP and leveling adds fun and sense of progress.

Empeopled - Gives you more influence based on the amount of up-votes you've received. Use influence to steer future of the site.

The Needs - Seen this on twitter a lot, content seems a bit off (automated content maybe?).

Hubski - Old school, had similar attention to voat a few years ago. Decent discussion but few members.

Spreadit - Dark theme, doesnt seem all that different from reddit. Even the name is similar.

Hacker News - Lots of business and programming talk but can also find some good misc discussion.

Linkibl - No comment, seen it posted at /r/redditalternatives. Looks like pinterest for links.

Voat - Almost direct clone that cropped up just recently.

Lobsters - Techy invite only link sharing. Similar in look to hacker news.

vehementsquirrel · 10 時間前

When will you clarify what constitutes brigading? Will you continue to ban people in secret for rules that are kept hidden from the users?

With regard to the new harassment rule, what remedy will Reddit admins employ against users accused of harassment? Will they also be shadowbanned, or will they be told they were banned and given an opportunity to respond to the accusation?

cj_would_lovethis · 9 時間前

Based on your own data, 35% of the complaints from extremely dissatisfied users were about heavy handed moderation and censorship

What is being done about that?

RaiderInRed505 · 7 時間前

Buzzwords. Corporate buzzwords everywhere.

K_Lobstah · 10 時間前

So this will be enforced by admin, but how is reporting of it handled? Just modmail to /r/reddit.com? Are there plans to increase the efficiency or response rate for messages sent there? Will moderator reports of other users being harassed be given the same level of attention?

The vast majority of subscribers aren't even aware they can contact admin. We receive reports of harassment in modmail quite frequently.

iHaveNoSocialFilter · 3 時間前

I strongly disagree with this. I disagree with the premise that fear of harassment results in anything comparable to the suppression of free expression. I disagree with the idea that suppressing free expression would somehow generate free expression. I disagree with the admins deciding for the community what constitutes harassment.

danheskett · 9 時間前

It's odd to have a post one day from admin's about transparency, and then the next day, have an entire new post which involves new rules that are nearly 100% opaque.

The definition of harassment is so vague as to be useless, as are the penalties.

kvachon · 9 時間前

So is stuff like /r/justneckbeardthings and /r/fatpeoplehate against the rules now? Systematic and continued actions to demean people which would make any reasonable person feel unable to discuss any ideas that might go against the majority opinion? Or is it more for stuff like http://redd.it/35vv1v or http://redd.it/35xc8d which involves stalking a person to see what they post about where and for what purpose, solely to bring it forward to a group of people to judge and demean said person.

Which of those is now harrasement. If none are, then what is a concrete example of it. Does it need to be reported to you by the person being harrased? Does the admin team have to decide that they consider the treatment harassment? What constitutes feeling "like reddit isnt a safe place" seeing as its website with text comments.

To be honest, it seems like this rule is going to open a new can of worms, not solve any issues. You should either not allow mean comments, or not moderate legal comments. Trying to find that grey area is going to require you to choose sides on infinite endless battles between groups of people that honestly hate eachother. I know reddit tries its hardest to be a safe and friendly place, but there's a sub-section of this site that wants nothing more than to hate on things. Culture, people, trends, politics, reddit itself. ITs a pretty hate filled site outside of saner places like /r/aww or /r/askscience. ITs one of the prices you need to pay when you dont require anyone to reveal who they are. You cant expect anonymous people to retain their inhibitions and manners.

chugz · 7 時間前

Buddy Fletcher, husband of Reddit CEO Ellen Pao, is being described as being the operator of Ponzi scheme after his now bankrupt firm diverted money for their own use and, according to the Chapter 11 trustee, committed fraud against investors. Three Louisiana pension funds lost $144 million.

shadow bans for everyone.

Dlgredael · 6 時間前

This is having the exact opposite effect on me. I don't want to use reddit because I'm afraid that by getting in a disagreement with someone, they're going to report me and you're going to ban me. I have spent time debating people, which can be confrontational, and even though I don't take it to an extreme level I still don't feel okay with even participating in a debate anymore when your rules are so poorly defined. If you're going to come up with a blanket rule like this that affects everything, you could at least be clear enough that people can actually tell what it takes to break it.

ThePraetor · 3 時間前

You want to stop harassment? Try this. Let the subreddit mods do as they already do and choose whether to censor content on their own subs. If a mod wants to have a safe space for their little group to circlejerk in, that's fine. That's their right as a mod, or it should be. The reddit admins, on the other hand, have a greater responsibility to their customers. They don't run specific subs; they run the whole site. Since reddit users come from every group and affiliation imaginable, I'd argue that mods have no right or responsibility to police content or expression. Unless illegal activity is taking place, I see no reason why the admins should have a say in what "harassment" is when it's a broad term that has different definitions depending on which group you're dealing with. Some groups see any disagreement as harassment. Others set the bar higher. These groups should be able to define harassment for themselves, and within their own subs. Let the SJWs ban anyone who offends them from their subs. I don't care. On the other hand, if people want to be assholes, let them. Reddit is such a large site that anyone with a harassment problem can find a safe space. Admins are not mods, nor should they try to be.

wantingsilence · 10 時間前

The harassed can report their so called harassers, correct? Will the harassers get any notification or chance to defend themselves, or will they just be shadowbanned?

tacticalbaconX · 7 時間前

So vague, politically correct "safe zones" and corrupt cronyism for topics that make the Reddit owners look bad.

Got it.

risingstars · 8 時間前

Have affairs, be a bigot, sue your employers over bullshiy, cover it up from reddit. :)

CttCJim · 9 時間前

is it harassment if someone bans you from a sub you've never posted in? it feels like it is.

ttifiblog · 6 時間前

So are you finally going to stop SRS from brigading and harassing?

Mcsquizzy · 9 時間前

What is with all of the reddit propaganda lately? Seems very unusual and out-of-the-blue for the random face-saving posts about how great Reddit is

itty53 · 9 時間前

Systematic and/or continued actions to torment or demean someone in a way that would make a reasonable person (1) conclude that reddit is not a safe platform to express their ideas or participate in the conversation, or (2) fear for their safety or the safety of those around them.

What cracks me up is that this will apply to both sides of many arguments, but only one side is bound to get punished for it.

For instance: Is it safe for a conspiracy theorist to express their ideas and participate in conversation without being ridiculed? What about someone who thinks vaccines are dangerous? Or are those the dangerous ideas that need to be censored?

What does 'harassment' mean too? If someone calls me a name in a response, once (not-repeated), is that harassment? I've been insulted. I've been put 'in danger' of feeling insulted or harassed. Is this just a big 'be polite' rule? Because I've known plenty of polite trolls.

I'm not trying to defend harassers or anything - I've been the target of one individual in particular who followed and replied to comments as old as 6 months (and the admins banned him as soon as I reported him) - but the 'rules' that are being written here are vague and thus, flexible: They can apply when the admins choose and not apply when the admins don't. Which is exactly what's been happening, albeit unofficially. Now it seems it's official: Reddit admins will censor you and your ideas if they perceive them as 'scary'.

By this rule, it sounds to me that all the GamerGate/GamerGhazi infighting is banned: Those groups are both systematically harassing and demeaning each other. /r/fatpeoplehate seems a systematic harassment subreddit towards fat people (most of which are non-redditors).

And finally, I note that 'reasonable' is left out: All you have to be is afraid in order to claim you're being harassed. You don't have to be reasonably afraid, just afraid. I should note that most fears aren't reasonable at all. Nope, it says reasonable people. I wonder how they'll define 'reasonable'.

ecafyelims · 9 時間前

Reading over the survey results. I can't see where people were complaining about being harassed. I even went to the survey CSV and did a CTRL-F for "harass" and came up with 0 results.

I'm not convinced harassment is as big of an issue as you think.

Instead, like you say, the reason they don't recommend to friends is "they want to avoid exposing friends to hate and offensive content"

Well, offensive content can mean any range of things. I know a lot of people who are offended by the science behind climate change. I know others who are offended by LGBT in the public. I know a lot of people who are offended by nudity, in general.

I hope you're not going to start removing content based on reports of it being "offensive," and I'm scared you'll start shadowbanning users under general guideline of "harassment" such as calling out CEO's for misconduct.

Please tell me this isn't the plan.

aseidner · 3 時間前

You should really just come out and say that you want to be in tighter control over the content on this website, rather than trying to spin a clear as mud, buzzword filled harassment policy as some sort of move to protect free speech.

Such spin is about as subtle as a sledgehammer and is insulting to everyone's intelligence.

2015goodyear · 10 時間前

So no new features or anything, just a new policy? That could be good. Can you elaborate on the policy though?

What happens if someone is reported for harassment? Reddit staff decides whether or not its harassment and then..... removes the content? Bans the harasser? Shadowbans the harasser? What's the plan?

AustNerevar · 8 時間前

Protection from harassment...

Safe space...

Shadowbans...

You guys are just trying to run off most of the userbase, aren't you.

Don't turn Reddit into Tumblr. It isn't want the majority of users want.

jexton80 · 8 時間前

Well we to can help protect freedom of speech, we can vote with our feet and let this become the safe space in the same way that digg is a safespace.

moush · 6 時間前

So does this mean that subs like SRS/SRD are going to be banned considering they promote attacking?

backtowriting · 9 時間前

So, how do you distinguish harassment from legitimate criticism? And how can that be done in a transparent way?

Personally, I'm not sure it's possible to always make the distinction. What may look like legitimate criticism to X may seem like harassment to Y.

Was e.g. criticism of Adria Richards after the dongle-gate incident harassment? All of it? At what point is the line crossed?

redditmodscancer · 4 時間前

good night sweet prince.

crash_matrix · 2 時間前

Disclaimer: #GamerGate content.

I'm a little curious as to the extend of reach. This is pretty vague: "Systematic and/or continued actions to torment or demean someone"

I mean, /r/GamerGhazi seems to be a systematic, coordinated attack on the character of a specific subset of people based entirely on a political affiliation. Dissent and correction isn't allowed by the rules of the subreddit. Technically, that would fall within the above criteria.

I'm not calling for its removal - but this blog post raises interesting questions. And an interesting dilemma. It's one thing to say "we're taking a stance on threats and doxxing" - but the stated criteria seem to be wildly subjective. Ghazi considers me responding to their mod comments [which are directed at me] as harassment. On twitter and Tumblr, just a few dissenting responses are considered harassment. Asking for proof of an assertion is considered harassment by some (so-called "sealioning").

I'd love to see the admins' thoughts on these issues.

DeadGamerWalking · 9 時間前

/r/ShitRedditSays makes it unsafe for me to express my ideas. Will you ban that subreddit?

alwaysthepessimist · 8 時間前

The death of Reddit begins here.

NeonMan · 8 時間前

So /r/shitredditsays usets will be banned pretty fast I guess.

Right?

elavers · 8 時間前

This blog post has made me fear for my safety on Reddit. I no longer feel that Reddit is a safe platform to express my ideas because of it.

Darr_Syn · 8 時間前

The continued use of the word "safe" in this blogpost seems. . . ominous.

See, I'm a mod of a number of BDSM subreddits and the term "safe" is one that's used quite a bit and is talked about all the time. But it's also argued about.

Let me put it this way.

What about my subreddits? Is discussing my kinks, hobbies, and passions going to be seen as "threatening" or " fear for their safety or the safety of those around them" by the very action of existing?

Many people have issues with alternative sexual practices and can see what I, an active sexual sadist, do as unsafe and even threatening.

So should I be worried about being protected against?

The issue that this brings up is what is considered "safe". In the BDSM world we tend to understand that there's no such thing as being 100% safe. It's a concept that is mythical, and fictional. Sitting there at your computer reading this there is a chance, no matter how small, that you could be hurt, harmed, or even killed.

That is true throughout the world. Both online and offline. The world is not safe. The internet is not safe.

At best you can make things safeR, but never safe.

But given your recent announcement of transparency I also have to ask, what is the process for being deemed "unsafe"? Are people going to be told they are being unsafe? Is there an appeal process? What are the punishments for being unsafe? Are there varying degrees of unsafeness?

This seems like an ideal that sounds good in political-speak and on paper but can, and should, be questioned quite a bit before being implemented.

DamnTheseLurkers · 6 時間前

I wonder if I'm witnessing the beginning of the downfall for reddit. Safe place? This place got where it is now because it was NOT a "safe place".

All I see behind this bullshit is that a lot more censorship will come, anyone with dissenting comments will be labeled harassers and removed.

Okichah · 9 時間前

https://voat.co/

LeeringMachinist · 5 時間前

Wow, another method of getting shadow banned for no good fucking reason.

I_smell_awesome · 9 時間前

Why do I get the feeling that this is just a first step into removing downvotes?

dummystupid · 9 時間前

There's a lot of admin blog posts lately.

Not sure how to feel about all the "announcements".

neohephaestus · 9 時間前

So you're finally getting rid of ShitRedditSays?

TotesMessenger · 9 時間前

This thread has been linked to from another place on reddit.

[/r/circlebroke2] REJOICE BRETHREN! TODAY SHALL BE A HOLY DAY!
[/r/conspiracy] The beginning of the end; reddit admins will now censor any subreddit, submission, or comment which is found to contain "harassment".
[/r/ellenpaoinaction] Now you can get banned if you say anything bad about a specific person. I wonder if Ellen Pao had anything to do with this? I would imagine she's tired of everyone knowing the truth about her.
[/r/metacancersubdrama] The cancer has spread: Admins hate free speech and want to destroy it
[/r/subredditcancer] "Promote ideas, protect people" - All for the common good
[/r/thepopcornstand] Reddit makes a blog post announcing that they're banning harassment. The whole thread is full of butter.

^{If you follow any of the above links, respect the rules of reddit and don't vote.} ^(Info ^/ ^Contact)

velvetbunnyrabbit · 7 時間前

You might as well include the key catchphrase "for the children" in there while you're at it, jerks.

1wf · 10 時間前

I hope we aren't trying to become Tumblr. The internet isn't a safe space. It never has been and hopefully never will be - safe is boring, heavily regulated and Brave New Worldish.

I don't like personal attacks either - but this appears to be your grounds to ban subs like /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/fatlogic or /r/CandidFashionPolice .

You truly didn't clarify what actions you plan to take to stop harassment. Its either a toothless policy OR a policy absent clear standards/transparency. . .

the_leif · 8 時間前

Well here's something nobody wants or asked for.

Taedirk · 9 時間前

Systematic and/or continued actions to torment or demean someone in a way that would make a reasonable person (1) conclude that reddit is not a safe platform to express their ideas or participate in the conversation

Having my account flagged to hide my posts from appearing to others with no warning, no confirmation outside third party checks, and little-to-no remedy makes me conclude that reddit is not a safe platform to express ideas. Disagree with the wrong person and my voice is silenced for all.

MattyB4x4 · 8 時間前

TL;DR: Reddit will start censoring users comments if they are found offensive.

Hypocritical clowns.

graffiti81 · 9 時間前

So basically you interviewed SRS.

FalconGames109 · 6 時間前

We value privacy, freedom of expression, open discussion

No, you don't. Freedom of expression and open discussion mean no censorship, at all. Whenever you say something similar to "I support freedom of speech, but..." you are basically admitting that you don't -- it's exactly the same as "I'm not racist, but...". You might support open discussion of some topics, but that doesn't mean anything about true freedom. If a government chooses to censor only discussion of its politics (I will mention this later) and allows open discussion of everything else, that doesn't mean you have freedom of speech. In fact, it means exactly the opposite.

We’ve always encouraged freedom of expression by having a mostly hands-off approach

Keyword being "mostly". Except you don't actually support it half the time. What about all those people who were shadowbanned for all that gamergate non-sense (for clarification, I don't support this gamergate movement but I also don't support the people against it; I am not in any way affiliated in its discussion). Why? Because the reddit admins disagree with them. Which is, let me remind you, how oppressive governments deal with discussion they don't like. Better yet, those same admins have also shadowbanned people contributing to the discussion of whether these bans should be allowed, which is exactly what countries like the DPRK do to deal with citizens who disagree with their ideology: they censor their opinions.

Instead of promoting free expression of ideas, we are seeing our open policies stifling free expression; people avoid participating for fear of their personal and family safety. Because of this, we are changing our practices to prohibit attacks and harassment of individuals through reddit with the goal of preventing them.

This isn't reddit's place to deal with these issues. In the real world, if someone says something offensive you have to learn to deal with it. One way to do this is to remove yourself from the situation or ignore them. Blocking a user (requires R.E.S.) who offends you is enough. If you don't feel comfortable putting your opinion out there for the general public, post it on a private subreddit. Censorship will not fix this. It will do the exact opposite. It will be abused so much that it will prevent any meaningful conversation from occurring. You may have your doubts, but we've seen this in the real world before. Countries with strict "anti-defamation" laws (such as Italy) regularly abuse their power and use it to censor what they don't agree with. This is exactly why we need open discussion, which reddit originally served to be a place for. But then the admins changed their minds and ruined it all with changes like this.

To the admins of the site: Say what you will about how this does not affect the spread of ideas, it still won't change the fact that you are wrong. These changes are undermining the original principles that reddit was founded on. Please remember that what somebody posts will always be an idea, and censoring their thoughts about another person is only censoring "thoughtcrime"; if someone thinks, for example, that all homosexual people need to burn in hell, that doesn't mean that they are going to do it. It is what their religion tells them, and censoring what they say isn't going to change that (even if they tell someone that they deserve to go to hell for their "sins"). For the record, I'm atheist and I don't believe any of that crap, but that doesn't change the fact that you would be taking away their freedom to openly speak their opinion. And doing so will just turn around this issue -- people will only be more scared to say their opinion once opinions that the admins are against get censored.

As a final note: Honestly, this comment will probably be deleted or I'll probably be shadowbanned based on how the admins have recently reacted to people calling them out on their bullshit. Good for you if you do it, whatever. I don't honestly care. Just remember that by doing so you are putting an end to open discussion on the website. I'll be happy to leave if changes like these continue. voat actually cares about openness. Take a look at their website and learn how to operate an internet community, because censorship is definitely not the answer.

mobugs · 9 時間前

Instead of promoting free expression of ideas, we are seeing our open policies stifling free expression; people avoid participating for fear of their personal and family safety

Does this mean you're finally shutting SRS down?

i_lost_my_password · 9 時間前

On the internet, as in real life, I value liberty over safety.

madmaxsin · 6 時間前

"Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thought crime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."

1984

IAmTurdFerguson · 8 時間前

So are we officially jumping ship to Voat now? This is an SJW sinking ship.

Maverick0325 · 9 時間前

In recent years I've noticed more and more companies releasing statements like this. Typically stating that there is something they will not do, then immediately do that thing.

This change will have no immediately noticeable impact on more than 99.99% of our users. It is specifically designed to prevent attacks against people, not ideas. It is our challenge to balance free expression of ideas with privacy and safety as we seek to maintain and improve the quality and range of discourse on reddit.

How can we be certain that moderators won't use this new harassment policy as an excuse to censor ideas they disagree with?

Vordreller · 7 時間前

What constitutes harassment?

There are people out there who consider being confronted with opposing views as a form of harassment.

Will you differentiate between accidental harassment and "on purpose" harassment?

What constitutes "reasonable"?

And why have reddit's definitions on these things been hidden from reddit users up till now?

Also, what is your stance on double standards?

pogiface · 3 時間前

/r/conspiracy was right, I don't get to say that often but they predicted this exactly.

MARsDoesNothing · 9 時間前

Now you can get banned if you say anything bad about a specific person.

I wonder if Ellen Pao had anything to do with this? I would imagine she's tired of everyone knowing the truth about her.

vexinom · 9 時間前

There are SRS mods that have harassed people talking about committing suicide still on the site. What are you going to do about them?

Manadox · 8 時間前

censor free thought, supress dissenting opinions

FTFY

FauxBoDo · 6 時間前

Next blog post - "Announcing our Partnership With Hooli: Making the World a Better Place"

blog

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