Promote ideas, protect people

overallprettyaverage · 3 時間前

Still waiting on some word on the state of shadow banning

got_milk4 · 3 時間前

This is a very abstract blog post - what, exactly, do the admins plan to do when complains of harassment are submitted?

70616c616b6b6164616e · 3 時間前

What if it's the mods of a subreddit (like /r/india) doing the harassment?

K_Lobstah · 3 時間前

So this will be enforced by admin, but how is reporting of it handled? Just modmail to /r/reddit.com? Are there plans to increase the efficiency or response rate for messages sent there? Will moderator reports of other users being harassed be given the same level of attention?

The vast majority of subscribers aren't even aware they can contact admin. We receive reports of harassment in modmail quite frequently.

cj_would_lovethis · 3 時間前

Based on your own data, 35% of the complaints from extremely dissatisfied users were about heavy handed moderation and censorship

What is being done about that?

vehementsquirrel · 3 時間前

When will you clarify what constitutes brigading? Will you continue to ban people in secret for rules that are kept hidden from the users?

With regard to the new harassment rule, what remedy will Reddit admins employ against users accused of harassment? Will they also be shadowbanned, or will they be told they were banned and given an opportunity to respond to the accusation?

Kalium · 2 時間前

Looking at the comments, and what's been upvoted, it becomes clear to me that there is a problem. Reflexive cynicism and distrust rule the day.

/u/kn0thing and /u/5days it seems that Reddit has lost the enthusiastic trust and support of its community. How do you plan to address this?

2015goodyear · 3 時間前

So no new features or anything, just a new policy? That could be good. Can you elaborate on the policy though?

What happens if someone is reported for harassment? Reddit staff decides whether or not its harassment and then..... removes the content? Bans the harasser? Shadowbans the harasser? What's the plan?

wantingsilence · 3 時間前

The harassed can report their so called harassers, correct? Will the harassers get any notification or chance to defend themselves, or will they just be shadowbanned?

kvachon · 3 時間前

So is stuff like /r/justneckbeardthings and /r/fatpeoplehate against the rules now? Systematic and continued actions to demean people which would make any reasonable person feel unable to discuss any ideas that might go against the majority opinion? Or is it more for stuff like http://redd.it/35vv1v or http://redd.it/35xc8d which involves stalking a person to see what they post about where and for what purpose, solely to bring it forward to a group of people to judge and demean said person.

Which of those is now harrasement. If none are, then what is a concrete example of it. Does it need to be reported to you by the person being harrased? Does the admin team have to decide that they consider the treatment harassment? What constitutes feeling "like reddit isnt a safe place" seeing as its website with text comments.

To be honest, it seems like this rule is going to open a new can of worms, not solve any issues. You should either not allow mean comments, or not moderate legal comments. Trying to find that grey area is going to require you to choose sides on infinite endless battles between groups of people that honestly hate eachother. I know reddit tries its hardest to be a safe and friendly place, but there's a sub-section of this site that wants nothing more than to hate on things. Culture, people, trends, politics, reddit itself. ITs a pretty hate filled site outside of saner places like /r/aww or /r/askscience. ITs one of the prices you need to pay when you dont require anyone to reveal who they are. You cant expect anonymous people to retain their inhibitions and manners.

itty53 · 3 時間前

Systematic and/or continued actions to torment or demean someone in a way that would make a reasonable person (1) conclude that reddit is not a safe platform to express their ideas or participate in the conversation, or (2) fear for their safety or the safety of those around them.

What cracks me up is that this will apply to both sides of many arguments, but only one side is bound to get punished for it.

For instance: Is it safe for a conspiracy theorist to express their ideas and participate in conversation without being ridiculed? What about someone who thinks vaccines are dangerous? Or are those the dangerous ideas that need to be censored?

What does 'harassment' mean too? If someone calls me a name in a response, once (not-repeated), is that harassment? I've been insulted. I've been put 'in danger' of feeling insulted or harassed. Is this just a big 'be polite' rule? Because I've known plenty of polite trolls.

I'm not trying to defend harassers or anything - I've been the target of one individual in particular who followed and replied to comments as old as 6 months (and the admins banned him as soon as I reported him) - but the 'rules' that are being written here are vague and thus, flexible: They can apply when the admins choose and not apply when the admins don't. Which is exactly what's been happening, albeit unofficially. Now it seems it's official: Reddit admins will censor you and your ideas if they perceive them as 'scary'.

By this rule, it sounds to me that all the GamerGate/GamerGhazi infighting is banned: Those groups are both systematically harassing and demeaning each other. /r/fatpeoplehate seems a systematic harassment subreddit towards fat people (most of which are non-redditors).

And finally, I note that 'reasonable' is left out: All you have to be is afraid in order to claim you're being harassed. You don't have to be reasonably afraid, just afraid. I should note that most fears aren't reasonable at all. Nope, it says reasonable people. I wonder how they'll define 'reasonable'.

danheskett · 3 時間前

It's odd to have a post one day from admin's about transparency, and then the next day, have an entire new post which involves new rules that are nearly 100% opaque.

The definition of harassment is so vague as to be useless, as are the penalties.

Okichah · 2 時間前

https://voat.co/

backtowriting · 2 時間前

So, how do you distinguish harassment from legitimate criticism? And how can that be done in a transparent way?

Personally, I'm not sure it's possible to always make the distinction. What may look like legitimate criticism to X may seem like harassment to Y.

Was e.g. criticism of Adria Richards after the dongle-gate incident harassment? All of it? At what point is the line crossed?

cjcrashoveride · 2 時間前

Wouldn't the easier solution have just been to make the report button actually, ya know, do something?

tkms · 37 分前

I appreciate the nobility of the idea behind policies like these, but I cannot ever say I support the policies in practice. This is a couple steps past the first on the road to censorship, extremely vague, deeply disturbing, and certainly not the Reddit I fell in love with.

I guess I'm with everyone else... I'll be around while my communities are kicking, but this site is going the way of Digg. Time for a new exodus to Voat.

Taedirk · 3 時間前

Systematic and/or continued actions to torment or demean someone in a way that would make a reasonable person (1) conclude that reddit is not a safe platform to express their ideas or participate in the conversation

Having my account flagged to hide my posts from appearing to others with no warning, no confirmation outside third party checks, and little-to-no remedy makes me conclude that reddit is not a safe platform to express ideas. Disagree with the wrong person and my voice is silenced for all.

I_smell_awesome · 3 時間前

Why do I get the feeling that this is just a first step into removing downvotes?

notdrunkinflorida · 2 時間前

I think you're jumping the shark here Alex. Who's going to decide what's 'safe'? Mods are the last people I trust to do that.

The internet is inherently toxic, you can't fix that. I get that you want to get rid of /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/coontown and people have said some over-the-top nasty things about Ellen Pao but I'm afraid what this is also going to do is ban dissenting opinions. This sounds awfully despotic to me.

edit: just realized his name is Alexis, sorry bout that

ecafyelims · 2 時間前

Reading over the survey results. I can't see where people were complaining about being harassed. I even went to the survey CSV and did a CTRL-F for "harass" and came up with 0 results.

I'm not convinced harassment is as big of an issue as you think.

Instead, like you say, the reason they don't recommend to friends is "they want to avoid exposing friends to hate and offensive content"

Well, offensive content can mean any range of things. I know a lot of people who are offended by the science behind climate change. I know others who are offended by LGBT in the public. I know a lot of people who are offended by nudity, in general.

I hope you're not going to start removing content based on reports of it being "offensive," and I'm scared you'll start shadowbanning users under general guideline of "harassment" such as calling out CEO's for misconduct.

Please tell me this isn't the plan.

1wf · 3 時間前

I hope we aren't trying to become Tumblr. The internet isn't a safe space. It never has been and hopefully never will be - safe is boring, heavily regulated and Brave New Worldish.

I don't like personal attacks either - but this appears to be your grounds to ban subs like /r/fatpeoplehate and /r/fatlogic or /r/CandidFashionPolice .

You truly didn't clarify what actions you plan to take to stop harassment. Its either a toothless policy OR a policy absent clear standards/transparency. . .

AustNerevar · 2 時間前

Protection from harassment...

Safe space...

Shadowbans...

You guys are just trying to run off most of the userbase, aren't you.

Don't turn Reddit into Tumblr. It isn't want the majority of users want.

TotesMessenger · 3 時間前

This thread has been linked to from another place on reddit.

[/r/circlebroke2] REJOICE BRETHREN! TODAY SHALL BE A HOLY DAY!
[/r/conspiracy] The beginning of the end; reddit admins will now censor any subreddit, submission, or comment which is found to contain "harassment".
[/r/metacancersubdrama] The cancer has spread: Admins hate free speech and want to destroy it
[/r/subredditcancer] "Promote ideas, protect people" - All for the common good

^{If you follow any of the above links, respect the rules of reddit and don't vote.} ^(Info ^/ ^Contact)

neohephaestus · 3 時間前

So you're finally getting rid of ShitRedditSays?

chugz · 1 時間前

Buddy Fletcher, husband of Reddit CEO Ellen Pao, is being described as being the operator of Ponzi scheme after his now bankrupt firm diverted money for their own use and, according to the Chapter 11 trustee, committed fraud against investors. Three Louisiana pension funds lost $144 million.

shadow bans for everyone.

Manadox · 2 時間前

censor free thought, supress dissenting opinions

FTFY

heyletsdothis · 50 分前

Alexis its great that you want to promote ideas and protect people. I think protecting free speech and promoting transparency is equally important. How are you going to balance these without infringing on one or the other?

With all these admin posts lately, its pretty transparent that reddit is trying to become more "user friendly" but at the cost of censoring users, and even deleting threads that are attacking government corruption and aggressive police activity. How can you honestly create a thread with the title "Promote ideas, protect people" when redditors are censored speaking out against corruption? That is neither promoting ideas, or protecting people. Your post is empty words.

the_federalist · 20 分前

Not only do I want terms like "safe" and "harass" to be explicitly defined in terms of objective behavior (not feelings), I would like there to be something in the policy allowing for freedom to express differing ideologies based on different world views; for instance, a person denying the existence of trans identities ought to be able to express that point of view even if someone who identifies as trans feels unsafe when that viewpoint is expressed.

Furthermore, this should be a public, transparent process so that everyone can see what the person was accused of, the evidence against that person, and the action taken by admins.

piitza · 18 分前

So when are we utilizing the thought police? Seems like that's next.

Thing is, the internet is sorta like a public place. You don't have to go to those places if it has things you don't want to see/hear. So there is a subreddit you don't like? DON'T GO THERE.

If people are posting in a subreddit, and they are reported, the mods can handle that. While some mods are corrupt and use the power of a mod (apparently the only power they can get their hands on in their lives) to do things that aren't cool.

You are not entitled to a safe place on the internet. It is the goddamn internet. Everyone can get to anything that is on said internet. You're removing the personal accountability and responsibility from users to not be a fucking retard and put their whole lives on the internet.

With 35% of the user base concerned over censorship what is being done about that?

As another user noted, if you didn't like something that was on the internet you turned your PC off and went outside. People need to harden up, this politically correct and feels bullshit needs to stop.

Instead of encouraging people to go see a therapist if they get an anxiety attack ranging from being obese and seeing a person skinnier than them, or a female becoming uncomfortable because a guy said hello and smiled on the street or WHATEVER.

I notice people are getting banned from subreddits where they don't even post or browse there because they browse a specific subreddit or have upvoted, commented, or anything there. All of this under the guise of "protecting their subreddits users". Sounds like thought police to me, if people do go into a sub and post shit that's not liked, you report to the moderators, and if rules are broken they'll handle the comment accordingly per the rules. That is already a system in place. People will come back and it'll happen again until they get bored and stop posting. But banning for not even going to the sub? That is the shit that pisses me off.

Reddit is not responsible for the protection of their users to a degree. Users are responsible for what they post, share, or read on a forum that almost anyone can see

This site really pisses me off, and really seems SJW more than anything. I hate saying that, but it is. Its really disturbing to see a bunch of dirty shit the CEO has done with her past, her husband doesn't seem like a stand up guy, and now all this crap is starting? I'm ready to jump ship when you guys are, because I see a huge migration here shortly.

Sorry for the rant but this legitimately upsets me.

Maverick0325 · 3 時間前

In recent years I've noticed more and more companies releasing statements like this. Typically stating that there is something they will not do, then immediately do that thing.

This change will have no immediately noticeable impact on more than 99.99% of our users. It is specifically designed to prevent attacks against people, not ideas. It is our challenge to balance free expression of ideas with privacy and safety as we seek to maintain and improve the quality and range of discourse on reddit.

How can we be certain that moderators won't use this new harassment policy as an excuse to censor ideas they disagree with?

dummystupid · 3 時間前

There's a lot of admin blog posts lately.

Not sure how to feel about all the "announcements".

NeonMan · 1 時間前

So /r/shitredditsays usets will be banned pretty fast I guess.

Right?

muahaa-the-french · 59 分前

First they came for /r/CoonTown, and I did not speak out— Because I was not subscribed to /r/CoonTown.

Then they came for /r/TheRedPill, and I did not speak out— Because I was not subscribed to /r/TheRedPill.

Then they came for /r/GamerGate, and there was no one left to speak for me

;-;

Mcsquizzy · 2 時間前

What is with all of the reddit propaganda lately? Seems very unusual and out-of-the-blue for the random face-saving posts about how great Reddit is

XPythagoras · 3 時間前

Don't 'keep everyone safe'. This isn't Facebook, reddit is a free speech platform and I don't think that the omniscient mods like /u/kn0thing should be able to dictate to subreddits how they should handle their community. Censorship should be the subreddit's decision. If we feel that some sub's should be silenced then we are no better than they are.

the_leif · 2 時間前

Well here's something nobody wants or asked for.

Godspiral · 2 時間前

Would this be a good opportunity to bait someone into saying something that could hurt my feelings? Will you then wield your powerful ban hammer to my satisfaction against whoever I choose? Its obvious to me that my gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation and race is oppressed by everyone who thinks otherwise, and those fucking worthless assholes will say things that I find mean.

How can I better ensure that ALL OF THOSE HATEFUL PEOPLE can be pushed to removing themselves from the internet (if not the planet) by appealing to your mod powers?

Alternatively, if you feel that I may be improperly seeking post-modern tactics in order to bait people into getting banned to my satisfaction, what procedures exist to prevent me from abusing your powers?

DeadGamerWalking · 3 時間前

/r/ShitRedditSays makes it unsafe for me to express my ideas. Will you ban that subreddit?

i_lost_my_password · 3 時間前

On the internet, as in real life, I value liberty over safety.

CttCJim · 2 時間前

is it harassment if someone bans you from a sub you've never posted in? it feels like it is.

risingstars · 2 時間前

Have affairs, be a bigot, sue your employers over bullshiy, cover it up from reddit. :)

graffiti81 · 2 時間前

So basically you interviewed SRS.

namer98 · 3 時間前

What if an entire sub harasses users?

dudenamedben · 3 時間前

Reddit has officially jumped the shark. What this is is a mea culpa admitting that their history of letting the community police itself hasn't worked (it has) and beginning a crackdown on expression/speech/communities the admins don't like.

It started with /r/jailbait... but I wasn't a ephebophile so I didn't speak up. Then they came for /r/thefappening, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't into fuzzy pictures of people I don't know. Then they came for /r/gamergate, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a gamer.

I'm speaking up now. This is a step in a VERY WRONG direction and will be the end of reddit as we know it if it's allowed to continue

Instead of promoting free expression of ideas, we are seeing our open policies stifling free expression

No, you're seeing expression you don't like and have decided to stifle that. If you're going to become a curated community of safe spaces and hugboxes, say that. If you're going to be a space for free expression, then you have to understand that some expression will offend your sensibilities. That's a GOOD THING. How else can one find out that they're wrong if not for challenging their own ideas?

I really hope that the reddit admins reconsider the path they're going down. Shadowbanning those who question Ellen Pao, banning communities that they don't like... digg fell for less than this. Reddit could very well be next.

Edit: It's really funny how immediately after this post was linked in SRS, the downvotes and shitty comments started. But they don't brigade. Nope. Good work, guys (Yes I said guys like the goddamn cishet white male shitlord I am.)

Narfhole · 3 時間前

One person's safety is another's closemindedness.

alwaysthepessimist · 1 時間前

The death of Reddit begins here.

walkingtheriver · 3 時間前

This harassment policy will not, definitely and totally and absolutely not, under any circumstances, be used to ban people for talking about Ellen Pao. /s

jexton80 · 1 時間前

Well we to can help protect freedom of speech, we can vote with our feet and let this become the safe space in the same way that digg is a safespace.

MARsDoesNothing · 3 時間前

Now you can get banned if you say anything bad about a specific person.

I wonder if Ellen Pao had anything to do with this? I would imagine she's tired of everyone knowing the truth about her.

MattyB4x4 · 1 時間前

TL;DR: Reddit will start censoring users comments if they are found offensive.

Hypocritical clowns.

KindaConfusedIGuess · 2 時間前

So that means you're gonna shut down subs like /r/ShitRedditSays, /r/SubredditDrama, /r/Conspiratard, /r/GamerGhazi and /r/Fatpeoplehate, right?

You know, subs that actually revolve around harassment.

^{^{^Probably}} ^{^{^not.}}

intellos · 1 時間前

I'm a bit confused. What actually changed here? Was Harassment not already against the rules?

AgrippaDaYounger · 56 分前

Posts like these make me question whether the reddit administration really understand what reddit is. Reddit is a way to categorize content by subject, and then adjust visibility by vote, thats it. You are not running a social movement, the same abhorrent content found around the net works within this framework because it can be compartmentalized, allowing disparate subjects to exist within the same ecosystem. This has allowed gore and hardcore porn to exist on the same platform as the presidential AMA. I don't understand why you need to change (censor) anything except to allow reddit inc to try to sell a more cleaned up (fake) version of the internet to gain more users, when in the process of beginning down the path of censorship you threaten your very place within the market because reddit at its core is a very simple concept (easy to replicate; see voat shills) executed by users who highly value unrestricted speech and are critical to reddits success.

Is it really worth alienating your existing loyal base to draw in new users who aren't already interested in the existing model (product)?

guy231 · 55 分前

This is a weird post. Are you saying that you used to ignore complaints of harassment?

kilokalai · 53 分前

It's ok reddit. I browse with adblock and will never buy gold. Ever.

tacticalbaconX · 47 分前

So vague, politically correct "safe zones" and corrupt cronyism for topics that make the Reddit owners look bad.

Got it.

-Massachoosite · 26 分前

Hey Alexis,

I'm genuinely concerned about abuse of this policy. How do we know when someone is being overly sensitive? What if something starts a subreddit against people with blue eyes. Would I have a legitimate complaint of harassment or would it have to be specifically targeted at me off-site somehow?

I'm concerned because it is so broad, anyone with hurt feelings for something they perceive to be a wrong can basically take down another user / idea. If that's the case, knowing that on the internet people get hurt feelings about literally any idea, it will be hard to promote anything without being seen as harassing.

I created /r/Gaybros and the amount of claims that we are a toxic group (despite users hosting meet ups in almost every major English-speaking metropolitan area on the globe, raising money for charity, and countless other awesome results of the cool community that has developed there), would suggest to me that /r/Gaybros would be prone to abuse via this policy. Hell I have whole websites with my IRL name that are open letters about the fact that Gaybros is toxic, and I would imagine, considered harassing in ways to the people who do not like it.

I think the major issue is with the wording of:

(1) conclude that reddit is not a safe platform to express their ideas or participate in the conversation

I think you and I both know that many folks on Reddit consider very minor things unsafe or triggering. I feel like if this sentence got some clarification it would really strengthen the policy.

As always I appreciate your work and think you're a stand up guy, so I hope you aren't letting these decisions stress you too much.

All my best.

MrRexels · 3 時間前

Great, fortify the hugbox and echo chamber so no dissenting opinions can ''hurt'' others. Also, people being mean to you on the Internet =/= harassment, they are pixels on a monitor.

EDIT: Apparently people are bringing up the fact that I comment on TRP as a way to invalidate what I say and label me as wrong even through I didn't make a single redpill statement in the, what, 2, 3 sentences I made? Boy, I wonder why someone that participates on the same kind of community that will get unfairly targeted by this new policy will have something to say about it!.

PS: Speech is an abstract idea. Attributing intrisic values (''Hate'') to something abstract and subjective is the fastest way to say ''I know shit about ethics and morals''.

Tomes2789 · 2 時間前

I think you are really going to be going down a slippery slope here.

I don't harass anyone so for me this won't effect me at all, but any kind of censorship or taking away of the freedom of speech/the internet is something I instantly worry about.

There will be an issue of viewpoint neutrality here now, and that's a sad thing to have to accept.

starworks5 · 2 時間前

What will your legal response be when your definition of harassment, would instead appear to be a form of arbitrary discrimination, as defined by the Unruh Act of California? By directly opposing to the legal definition of harassment, instead portraying it as a "right to not be offended", which has already been invalidated by the supreme court.

You are effectively discriminating against the equal opportunity to of a person to enjoy reddit, because you're arbitrarily discriminating against their completely legal legitimate personal views, most notably the views critical of the very misconduct of leadership itself which are often censored. I for example think that the ethics of using reddit users for social science experiments by SJW's including Max Goodman is disgusting.

As far as I can tell, I have no trust about your need harassment policy, because its derived from statistics without a methodology, and I wouldn't be surprised if the data was groped to meet the conclusion. The majority of the members of your social science team operate with methodological and ideological biases anyways, and study things like idea manipulation and censorship.

http://derp.instutute

Do you really not realize that the reddit community could ALSO sue for discrimination?

– Jessica ( /u/5days ), Ellen ( /u/ekjp ), Alexis ( /u/kn0thing ) & the rest of team reddit

https://oag.ca.gov/publications/CRhandbook/ch4

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-751.pdf

relic2279 · 2 時間前

I don't really want to beat a dead attack helicopter, but a sizeable portion of these types of attacks & problems could be, or would be directly (and indirectly) solved by better mod tools... If we could IP ban users from our subreddits who are harassing (a hashed IP so mods wouldn't know the actual IP address for privacy reasons), for example, it would cut down on the amount of toxicity those types of users were bringing to the sub.

Then there's the whole deterrent aspect; if people know they can't just create a sockpuppet to get around an IP ban, or had to hop on a VPN in order to circumvent it, they may think twice, or may not be as hostile in their commenting. Sure, it's not a perfect solution. I don't think a perfect solution exists. But it's a good solution. The benefits of such a feature far outweighs the negatives.

In the rare cases where someone accidentally bans an IP that was shared by a university or business (or in the case of wikipedia, a country), it could be and would be escalated to the admins who do what they normally do when that happens. Since it would be a rare occurrence, it shouldn't be much of a consideration to take into account.

audobot · 3 時間前

Research team speaking here. For those of you who want to check out what we learned from our survey of redditors, head over to /r/redditdata for What we learned from our March 2015 survey

elavers · 2 時間前

This blog post has made me fear for my safety on Reddit. I no longer feel that Reddit is a safe platform to express my ideas because of it.

Br00ce · 3 時間前

Because of this, we are changing our practices to prohibit attacks and harassment of individuals through reddit with the goal of preventing them

What? The goal of harassers to prevent harassing or is it your goal to stop these harassers preemptively? Or is this just another vague rule you can twist to fit any situation like "brigading"?

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