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Promote ideas, protect people (redditblog.com)

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[–]kn0thing[S,A] 459 ポイント460 ポイント  (148子コメント)

I hear you. This was a product decision we made literally 10 years ago -- it has not been updated and it needs to be. Back when we made it, we had only annoying marketers to deal with and it was easier to 'neuter' them (that's what we called it) and let them think they could keep spamming us so that we could focus on more important things like building the site.

We've recently hired someone for this task and it will also be more user-friendly.

[–]hestonkent 171 ポイント172 ポイント  (89子コメント)

Any insight on when we might hear more about it? Glad one of you guys are finally responding to this issue.

[–]kn0thing[S] 240 ポイント241 ポイント  (87子コメント)

Soon as we have something to share. Admittedly, it was an ugly hack 10 years ago that's still being used -- that's a problem.

[–]hestonkent 94 ポイント95 ポイント  (83子コメント)

So, if I'm understanding right, the "ugly hack" is the system that is in place today, and you won't have anything to share until the system is updated?

Well at least that's good news for people who've been interested in seeing it change.

[–]kn0thing[S] 162 ポイント163 ポイント  (81子コメント)

Yes, I know it hasn't come soon enough. That's on us.

[–]matt01ss 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (26子コメント)

Shadowbans still work well for spammers/advertisers. I suppose a new "type" of ban will be needed.

[–]ErenBasukezu 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I suppose a new "type" of ban

Like... a regular ban, with a regular message stating "You have been banned".

[–]Klathmon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So can you still login once banned?

Can i get all of my subreddits that i'm subscribed to if i get banned?

Can i access my comment/post/vote history when i'm banned?

What happens to all of my comments/posts if i'm banned, are they deleted? (if not do i have a way to delete them?)

What happens to my posts?

Is a ban per person, or per account?

Can i still use my account to report doxxing happening to me?

What happens if i am a moderator of a subreddit, what happens if i am the sole moderator?

There are probably a million other little questions that need to be answered. I agree that a better solution is needed, but it's not as simple as "flip a switch and it's done!"

[–]kn0thing[S] 58 ポイント59 ポイント  (22子コメント)

It's actually still used a vast majority of the time (north of 90%) on spammers/advertisers. I know it's an easy meme to latch on to, but that's the truth of it.

By my estimate, a significant percentage of the few people who do get banned and aren't spammers/advertisers, could be reformed if we just made it all more explicit -- that's what we're going to do.

[–]needless_insults 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (3子コメント)

And what about those of us who had accounts get shadow banned for unknown reasons and have been ignored by the admin team completely, to the point where we don't even know why we we're banned despite asking multiple times.

Edit: this direct reply will get ignored too.

[–]DownvotesAdminPosts 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And what about those of us who had accounts get shadow banned for unknown reasons and have been ignored by the admin team completely

I'm one of those, too!

Edit: this direct reply will get ignored too.

sadly, yep

[–]Naught -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wait until they actually have a new system. What exactly do you want them to say?

[–]needless_insults 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Literally anything. I was shadow banned, I've been ignored. A new system isn't going to bring back my account.

[–]Dramatic_______Pause 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How about adding a retroactive appeal process as well? My original account was shadowbanned after years with no idea why, and any message to admins goes unanswered...

[–]28DansLater 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Even with the current system, why aren't the users who aren't spammers notified when they're banned? I understand not notifying a spammer. Not notifying a real person who gets banned comes off as lazy.

[–]TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

because "you've been banned for repeatedly breaking sitewide rules, please go make a new account" would be pretty counterproductive, wouldn't it now?

c'mon, you (as a guy who's been rightfully shadowbanned many times) know this as well as anyone!

[–]28DansLater -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

because "you've been banned for repeatedly breaking sitewide rules, please go make a new account" would be pretty counterproductive, wouldn't it now?

Subs send notifications when a user is banned. Why isn't this something admins do when they ban people?

c'mon, you (as a guy who's been rightfully shadowbanned many times) know this as well as anyone!

Really? What was the reason for /u/dawn-of-the-dan's shadowban?

[–]iNEEDheplreddit -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Pity that shitty moderation doesn't warrant a ban.

[–]GoreFox 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's actually still used a vast majority of the time (north of 90%) on spammers/advertisers.

Then do you guys respond to that 10% if they message you guys asking why?

[–]gfuller23 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's actually still used a vast majority of the time (north of 90%) on spammers/advertisers

That's terrible logic, if you consider the fact that the guy who was shadowbanned for 2 years was originally banned because your automated process thought he was a spammer

[–]Grst 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's actually still used a vast majority of the time (north of 90%) on spammers/advertisers. I know it's an easy meme to latch on to, but that's the truth of it.

That might not tell us anything more than that there are a whole lot of spammers. It doesn't make the many proven instances of abuse of the system any less of a problem.

[–]ChronoDeus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If the number of spammers or advertisers shadow banned is high enough, That ~10% real accounts shadow banned works out to thousands, if not tens of thousands of real accounts with real people behind them, unjustly shadow banned. That's not "a few people". Even if there have been as few as 20,000 shadow bans over the life span of the site, that works out to 2000 real accounts banned, and given the nature of spam bots, the nature of people, and the popularity of Reddit, I have difficulty believing the numbers are that low.

[–]socsa 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly, limiting submission rights to users based on their karma and the age of their account seems like the easiest way to defeat spammers, wouldn't you say? At least, based on my observations from /r/technology.

Make users wait a week before they can submit links, and then limit them to one per week until they can accumulate 100 karma. Then give them two per week, and so on based on some graduated scale. Most subs already do something similar with automod, and it seems to be very effective.

Hell, I'd even say limit voting rights in the same way to control brigading and alt accounts. No voting for the first week, or until you reach 100 karma. I honestly see no downside to this.

[–]PointyOintment 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In yesterday's thread we brought up several methods for effectively instantly discovering a shadowban.

I had a comment there, replying to the one I linked to, in which I mentioned a web-based tool that tells you if you're shadowbanned or not. My comment is no longer there for anyone but me (and none of my comments in that thread has a score other than 1)… but I'm not shadowbanned according to said tool, so you should see this comment for a few minutes at least.

[–]hestonkent 106 ポイント107 ポイント  (51子コメント)

There's a mass mob mentality in this thread that'll probably end up torching your comments, but serious props for answering the question that's on a lot of people's mind, and admitting that there's a problem.

Not many websites have that admin-to-end-user connection quite like reddit does.

[–]kn0thing[S] 99 ポイント100 ポイント  (45子コメント)

It's all good. I've seen a few of these in my day. Heh.

I don't blame you for being frustrated with it -- it's a bad user experience and we lose plenty of otherwise great users because they just don't understand how the site works and have a bad user experience (with no explanation or clear reform process).

[–]hestonkent 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (9子コメント)

it's a bad user experience and we lose plenty of otherwise great users because they just don't understand how the site works and have a bad user experience

So much this, thank you for saying it. According to the current rules, since my other account /u/CationBot is banned from /r/IAmA (due to their no novelty account rule, no other reason) then this account would technically warrant a shadowban because I have since participated in AMAs. I think some people would be upset if either accounts went missing. Maybe it's wishful thinking...

[–]drocks27 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

yep would be upset. You also do bring up a really interesting gray area . It's not like you were not welcome, but just one of your accounts falls into the not welcome group.

[–]francis2559 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can confirm, would be upset.

[–]Seraph_Grymm 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

sub bans differ from site bans. there is no reason your non novelty account can't participate in iAMA, even if your other account is banned. there would be no technical reason to shadow ban, you weren't a spammer

[–]adventure_dog 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a silly rule and must warrant many unnecessary bans

[–]Squishumz 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

they just don't understand how the site works

Because the rules aren't clear.

[–]Adwinistrator 31 ポイント32 ポイント  (2子コメント)

they just don't understand how the site works

I was shadowbanned for voting on posts in a thread that I was linked to from another sub. I received no warning, just poof. I have been using this site for a long time, and did what most users end up doing. Reading discussions, voting, participating, following links, reading, voting, etc.

The sub I came from was not some meta-sub, where people are directed to posts, it was just an example someone used in a discussion.

I ended up in this small political sub, and ended up voting on posts based on the normal rules, I was upvoting well thought out posts and good points, and downvoting irrational and sensationalist posts that were diminishing the discussion.

I was shadowbanned, and was never informed until a bot let me know.

The admin I spoke with said I was part of a brigade...

As far as I am concerned, unless the sub in question is some meta-sub, or the post you get linked from is inciting a brigade, simply following a link and participating in a sub you aren't a member of, is NOT a brigade.

Just because a bunch of people did the same thing as me, does not make me part of some orchestrated group skirting reddit's rules. I was simply one person, perusing through reddit, voting on posts, and for that I was shadowbanned.

[–]throwawaythedog 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yea, if you ever follow a link to a sub you basically have to ban yourself from ever voting there for fear of being shadowbanned across the entire site. All of reddit is links to other things on the internet, but if that link is to another part of reddit you get banned for following it? Seems pretty stupid to me.

[–]Adwinistrator 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If that's the way they want it, then design the site to only allow voting if you have been subscribed for ## days.

I understand if a bunch of people roll into some close knit community and start being mean and posting rude things, that sucks, ban them from that community, or put their username on warning, or something.

I didn't even post a single word in the thread I was shadowbanned for voting in.

[–]EditingAndLayout 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

http://i.imgur.com/V0u0S54.gif

[–]HIT_BY_SNIPER 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (26子コメント)

we lose plenty of otherwise great users because they just don't understand how the site works

Or because they mention Ellen Pao's hus

[–]ucantsimee 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Not sure if username joke, or shadowban joke.

[–]Stubborn_Asshat 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Username joke. They end all of their comments like that.

[–]Gimli_the_White 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Or because they mention Ellen Pao's hus

What's the big deal? It's not like you mentioned candlejack. I'm telling you - that is the fastest way to

[–]HalfLightTim 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To the shadow-realm with you!

[–]lamaksha77 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fuck that, I ain't giving in to any more of this censorship thinly lubed as 'user protection' that is being slid down our collective assholes. Ellen Pao is a

[–]A_Shady_Zebra 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not really relevant but I have a question. When you first replied to the (currently) top comment, you were listed as administrator, however after that point you were just OP.

Why does it do that? How does it decide whether or not to list you as administrator or OP?

[–]elneuvabtg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's all good. I've seen a few of these in my day. Heh.

Why do users who discuss our interim CEO always get shadowbanned?

Simple question: yesterday a user commented on a blog post about our interim CEO and is now shadowbanned. (http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/35uyil/transparency_is_important_to_us_and_today_we_take/cr86tqc)

Why is all discussion revolving around the actual state of reddit leadership and the behavior of those who run the business secretly censored? Is this a case where the mass shadowbans all coincidentally have a real and different purpose? Are we still maintaining the illusion that you won't be openly shadow banned for criticizing the professional behavior of our interim CEO ?

[–]cloud_strife_7 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can you give users a chance to look over and contribute ideas for the site?

E.g. Here's how we think shadow banning should be, what do you think?

Then make a survey or allow people to add or take away ideas you have.

[–]beernerd 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think the only person that reddit would have accepted any response from on this matter is Alexis. Let's hope the mob finally settles down.

[–]funderbunk 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Considering his recent comments, I don't think Alexis would find a whole lot of love here, either.

[–]beernerd -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then reddit is no longer capable of love, and I weep for the users.

[–]DownvotesAdminPosts -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's a mass mob mentality in this thread that'll probably end up torching your comments

wrong-o, he's getting upvoted quite a bit for actually answering the questions

[–][deleted] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

In the mean time, can people who have been shadowbanned actually get a response? Waiting multiple days to hear back about a ban is ridiculous, especially when you finally hear back and it's a completely bogus charge.

[–]28DansLater -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Especially when it would be super simple to notify the person as they're being banned. There is no transpanrency in the current system.

[–]f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5f5 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They are working on half life 3.

[–]mage2k 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

still being used

  • still being abused

[–]Gimli_the_White 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It wasn't an ugly hack - it's a very effective anti-spam measure.

The problem is using something created to deal with spambots to try to discipline users. That is the "ugly hack" (and if that's what you meant, my apologies - it wasn't clear)

When someone misbehaves and you want to ban them, the banning should be open and informative: "You have been banned from [forum] for violating [rule(s)]." There should be information on how to appeal the ban (for example, something you said was misunderstood), and first appeals should be granted liberally.

For folks who create multiple accounts, I'm sure that problem has been solved by other boards that actually work on solving the problem - talk to the folks at Disqus, phpBB, Stackoverflow, and other popular discussion platforms. They should have information regarding what works best (IP banning, email verification, semantic user identification, etc)

[–]1wf 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This update is very much appreciated.

[–]two_xjs 61 ポイント62 ポイント  (0子コメント)

wow an actual response to a shadowban question

[–]_____FRESH_____ 51 ポイント52 ポイント  (7子コメント)

New message: "Congratulations...you have been shadow banned!"

[–]stengebt 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (5子コメント)

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

[–]kn0thing[S] 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Definitely needs a donger.

(╭ರᴥ•́)

[–]jotch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Speaking of dongers. Why is Destinys penis still hosted on your CDN?

[–]YouveGotAids -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Donger

[–]Gimli_the_White 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"also, you have been banned from /r/pyongyang. You've probably also been banned from /r/shitredditsays, who will now talk about you behind your back. Also, your mother is a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries. Now go back to Digg or I shall taunt you a second time."

[–]leefna 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Is reddit, the product, a gun-wielding robot that goes around forcing admins to shadowban people?

[–]kn0thing[S] 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (9子コメント)

No. And there are no plans to add that feature.

[–]THROWMYBALLSAWAY122 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Can it be a candy wielding robot?

[–]Electric_Evil 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Something like this?

[–]THROWMYBALLSAWAY122 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Can you replace the snickers with twix? not a fan of snickers

[–]steve1879 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reese's Pieces FTW.

[–]Im_a_wet_towel 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What constitutes harassment? If I make an off-hand remark about someones mother, is that a ban? If I call someone a liar? If I tell someone they are being childish? If I say that someone deserved something bad that happened to them?

What if someone consistently posts information that I don't agree with, and I consistently voice my opinion?

The issue, to be, is that harassment has a very real possibility of being subjective, and I think clear a clear outline is necessary.

[–]speedofdark8 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

booo! we want deadly robots! #badmin

[–]il_y_a_ilya 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This account is new but I'm just paranoid about leaving Internet history in general. I remember the reddit front page as a Haskell forum. I've hung around for a while.

This said, what is the product, Alexis?

In my book, reddit is going through nothing short of a conceptual crisis. It hasn't evacuated yet because there's no reddit killer around like reddit itself once disposed of Digg, caught with its own malconceived notions of the future it never got around to having.

And this much is clear by how much you're doing the blogs/announcements boogie in the past week. But you folk need to figure yourselves out first, man. You're acting more and more like a headless chicken by the day.

Now, don't just answer me point blank, Alexis. Your gang needs to do some actual thinking.

[–]VAGINA_EMPEROR 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

http://i.imgur.com/Unfvdxs.gif

[–]TRB1783 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And here I thought you guys were trying to be receptive to the desires of the Reddit community.

[–]TotesMessenger 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (17子コメント)

This thread has been linked to from another place on reddit.

If you follow any of the above links, respect the rules of reddit and don't vote. (Info / Contact)

[–]GTS250 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (13子コメント)

/r/oppression? That's a thing?

[–]robotortoise 59 ポイント60 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I think it's ironic.

Edit: it is....both?

[–]Vmoney1337 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Trust me, it's definitely ironic. They just do a great job at it.

[–]robotortoise 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The sidebar says it's both.

So, I guess it's Poe's Law, but also not?

[–]thefran 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Content here may be serious or satire.

It's both.

[–]robotortoise 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Huh.

[–]eberkneezer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It means you have to think a little for yourself and put things into perspective before grabbing your pitchfork.

[–]adventure_dog 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They also have a gone wild sub

[–]Fake-Empire 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I kinda laughed out loud when I saw that.

[–]ronaldinjo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, there's also /r/AntiAtheismWatch

[–]TheRighteousTyrant 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/ofcoursethatsathing

[–]thenuge26 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

There's LITERALLY nothing more oppressive than not being able to comment on a privately owned website.

[–]Throwaway_Derps 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I figuratively enjoyed this comment.

[–]Jezamiah 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some of these thread titles smh Soo sensationalist

[–]blahblahblahdkjdfgj 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Admin /u/kn0thing admits that for the last 10 years, they've been treating users like potential spammers and been punishing them with a nasty shadowban.

Oh good lord

[–]Gimli_the_White 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you follow any of the above links, respect the rules of reddit and don't vote.

This makes no sense whatsoever. If I find a thread on my own I'm allowed to agree with it, but if someone points me to it, I'm not?

[–]overallprettyaverage 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's awesome to hear you guys are looking at this critically. It seems that this is an issue that's bothering a very large number of users, and for good reason, now that you're pushing the transparency and freedom of speech thing. Maybe a blog post on this would put a lot of people at ease.

[–]Mid22 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

More user-friendly is always nice to have. This is what I had to deal with when I was shadowbanned.

[–]klieber 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

THANK YOU for acknowledging that it's an issue and that you're working on it. Even if it's not going to be fixed right away, at least hearing that it's on the radar, so to speak, is encouraging.

[–]absurdlyobfuscated 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ten years ago? Is that right? I remember when people started noticing SB'd users showing up all over, and then only two years ago the feature to exclude them from the modqueue was added. Am I remembering wrong or had reddit been hiding this in a way less apparent to moderators... or what?

I have also been on the receiving end of an active ban, I know reddit is capable of handling users in a less passive way. Some five years ago, raldi banned me for something like an hour for using some scripts that I really shouldn't have been using, and every page I went to had a message and I couldn't see anything other than messages (specifically, this one). Why can't you do that instead of the passive-aggressive method you use now? That should be for spammers and especially abusive trolls. Things like voting in linked threads should be slaps on the wrist, an active ban like I got for a few hours, instead of being condemned to reddit hell.

[–]RedSocks157 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Who is gilding this shit?

[–]go1dfish 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are there any plans to improve the state of removal transparency similarly?

That is another system that hasn't changed in forever.

Will this ever get released?

/r/modnews/comments/ov7rt/moderators_feedback_requested_on_enabling_public/

[–]teaearlgraycold 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Any thoughts on giving mods some kind of obfuscated unique identifier for their users based on location/IP information?

[–]Jezamiah 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

At least we know stuff is being actively done. Nothing worse than silence

[–]xvvhiteboy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why did it take you this many announcements to just respond?

[–]intellos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Would it be breaking the spamming/brigading rule if I were to spam a link to this comment in reply to every single person still asking about shadowbanning? =P

No but seriously, this alone deserves it's own blog post.

[–]Stone_tigris 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't expect you to read this or anything but thank you for answering this. I've been on reddit for just gone 4 years and I was shadowbanned for no reason for about a year of that (I just never bothered complaining) but I'm glad to see this whole thing will be sorted. Thanks :)

[–]WxChief1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How about subreddits like /r/photoplunder that pull naked pictures of women and then post them and rate them accordingly?

[–]Terkala 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How about this user getting shadowbanned by an admin for insulting them? Or this user getting shadowbanned for talking badly about the CEO's husband? Or the /r/bestof post about it getting shadowbanned from the sub so it doesn't show up on anyone's feed?

While the automatic shadowbans are worrying, it seems like admins also personally wield them against anyone they don't like.

[–]jesus_laughed -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

We've recently hired someone for this task and it will also be more user-friendly.

Is his first name "Buddy"?

[–]MaunaLoona 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How did that go from a tool to deal with annoying marketers to a tool used ubiquitously regardless of offense?

[–]Scientologist2a 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

When everything is resolved, with all of these "improvements" you are making, you should go for a general shadow ban amnesty.

Along with a clear set of rules instead the appearance of arbitrary or vindictive bans.

[–]CoderInPhoenix -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It seems odd to me that a policy which affects so many-- which has rules no one knows-- which can cause you many public headaches (for instance mentioning the CEO's husband and his ties) would not be touched in 10 years.

I do not buy this answer. Something is fishy about this.